The Pit Metagame Developement and Analysis Thread

['Kicks']

thanks for all of your input sage. I do not know how to multi quote so i am going to address a few of the things you say.

Wingdashing helps tremendously against floaty characters and light characters. I have used it a ton to stop momentum on characters like ZSS, Marth, Kirby, Jiggly, wario and metaknight.


thank you on the correction of the Fair range when wing lunging. I was always told otherwise and just accepted it as fact.

I am careful with jab cancelling. I am aware of the characters that have attacks that can severely disrupt it


i practiced the footstooling tech so i know when to look for it and can do it almost every time i hit the footstool. I am working on getting a video so that i can show people it's effectiveness


*edit* Also with the standard WoI from the ground I didnt phrase that well at all. I do not use it to just get into the air all the time. I use it more as a counter method to get into the air fast. I use it for two situations. The first being I know i can hit the push effect on them so I upB into the air to retreat to a higher platform. The second would be only when I know the opponent is about to use a very laggy and punishable move so i get into the air to set up a wing lunge

 

[Katana_koden]

Everyone is aware of pit arrow looping but its not discussed, not much anymore.
We know how effective it is, that even high level players use it.
Should we add on how we can use it in competitive play?

How and when to perform, and its uses.
Acronyms to help discribe.

Stage with platforms-
-where it can be used
-which loop is most effective
---------------------------------

90% arc (90a) is shooting an arrow forward than up.
180% arc (180a) is shooting an arrow forward then up then left or right.
270% arc (270a) is shooting an arrow forward, then up then left , then down.

its confusing at first but it takes time.

in example of using 90a you can include F,U,B,D like fair, uair, bair, dair respectively.
so and example of that would be U90a left = shooting an arrow up then left.

after the arc describe the direction you need to continue the arc. F90a down is bassically shooting an arrow over and down. Or shooting a character lower off stage for its uses.

adding a "-" can add to coninue the arrow ex: F90a- up jab, jab then -B180a forward
Basically this a basic arrow loop towards your opponent including 2 jabs

Here is an example:
As much as I watch alot of people play or arrow loop, I haven't seen this one used much.
This is more of an advanced arrow loop-

While on the ground you can U90a- in front of you, here you can Fair, Dair or F90a down with a jump to give pressure or attack.
-90a down and you be able to follow up if connected. -180a with a jump can begin an arrow channel (AC) and then follow from there.

What is arrow channeling or (AC)? It could've or still can be arrow layering but it hasn't been discussed.
Basically you are looping several arrows aligned together.
So AC is already known and sometimes used. With this technique you can increase the area of possibility where an opponent can be hit with multiple arrows instead of only one arrow. Competitively this works if your mindgame was successful.
-------------------------------

If you agree with this, or think any part should be changed or made easier to understand, please input.

Visual representaion is alot better but thats not always available.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I genuinely think that arrow looping is a dead end. It's a minor tech that has the occasional use in forcing someone to approach from the other side of a wall (PS1) or hitting someone at an awkward angle. I don't think it has much more use than this. I'd suggest looking into arrow chasing -> grab to eliminate options, but it's so ridiculously easy to read and takes too long to set up.

Arrow raining/swarming might be good to set up inbetween stocks, I guess, and hope you get lucky while fighting.

 

['Kicks']

I think arrow looping is something that could have potential as the meta game continues to expand.

However the first round of good pits have discussed and dismissed arrow looping as a good tech. I am really in the middle when it comes to arrow looping and atm think it is just a very situational tech.

Outside of certain situations I only use it to occasionally force an air dodge.

But you may find opposition trying to discuss anything seeing as how people seem to be set in their ways

 

[Katana_koden]

I genuinely think that arrow looping is a dead end. It's a minor tech that has the occasional use in forcing someone to approach from the other side of a wall (PS1) or hitting someone at an awkward angle. I don't think it has much more use than this. I'd suggest looking into arrow chasing -> grab to eliminate options, but it's so ridiculously easy to read and takes too long to set up.

Arrow raining/swarming might be good to set up inbetween stocks, I guess, and hope you get lucky while fighting.

Arrow looping seems to be considered tricks.
The direction I'm going is to use it as a set basis. A +1 attack, hit, or setup.
They may seem long but you are not as vulnerable as you think. Useless you are that predictable.



With this example,
While on the ground you can U90a- in front of you, here you can Fair, Dair or F90a down with a jump to give pressure or attack.
-90a down and you be able to follow up if connected. -180a with a jump can begin an arrow channel (AC) and then follow from there.

you can't be punished for this unless someone out prioritized your attack or didn't space yourself correctly to continue it. Your next attack is up to you.
your self right

Arrow chasing is just following up to me. No use for the name.

 

[Coffee™]

No high level Pit players use Arrow Looping aside from random taunts

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Arrow looping is dumb in singles play. Sagemoon, Masashi, R@vyn, and many other high-level players say NO!!! If you watched recent Koolaid vids vs Wes, you would see how his attempted arrow-looping got him punished >_<. Don't do it, I swear!!!

If you use it, use it only in doubles because I've seen it work, and you have a less chance of getting punished.

 

[Katana_koden]

Trust me, I seen his vids and I know why it didn't work. Alot of higher play pits don't use arrow looping and some do.

Its hard to do till you get comfortable with the player. Too much pressure.

 

[Coffee™]

Trust me, I seen his vids and I know why it didn't work. Alot of higher play pits don't use arrow looping and some do.

Its hard to do till you get comfortable with the player. Too much pressure.

Arrow looping isn't that hard. Most of the high level Pit players can do it pretty well, they just choose not to.

 

[Katana_koden]

Thats true, we do what feels safer.

From all the available combos and setups in this game, we won't do it in tournaments.
Ex: jigglypuff uair to down b.
I doubt i'll do it in a tournament, at first.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Sage has done some amazing stuff with looping (See his combo vid), it not like we haven't looked into it or tried things out. But the community has done a ton of stuff with it and in the end, decided it wasn't useful. There's almost always a better option.

I know it seems great but you treat it like we've eschewed it from the start, which we haven't. We've been through it.

 

[Katana_koden]

Arrow looping is a solid part of alot of players game plan. Yet some don't agree.

If one of us decides improve it in a different approach, should it be turned down?

Regardless who it is, someone is always looping in battle, why?

So regardless of how safe a move is, lets improve it using this development thread.

Looping is definitely not going to be as consistent as falco's lazors, but maybe as often as ness's up-b as an attack.
maybe more often.
I've gotten so competent with looping, I doubt my mind would be the only one to think of all possible strategies between it and be safe, while critiquing my self it's effectiveness. That's why I'm so determined to get others that will view it in similar ways.

 

[Phaigne]

Man, you guys are still talking about looping? Lame.

Learning to cut down attack lag is way more worthwhile.

 

[Ayoub]

Cut down attack lag?

 

[Phaigne]

Cut down attack lag?

Yep, specifically ending and landing lag. A lagless character is a broken character. Looping is something that maybe you should learn, but being able to attack faster is essential.

Side note: I got an arrow loop kill the other day.

 

[Katana_koden]

I wanted to do some data on pits latest aerial hit box to another attack.
Fastfall Nair to uptilt that kind of stuff or nair from the ledge.

You know how I mention WOIing after fair or Dair? That can be an auto setup for wing renewal chase. So It will be faster then attacking, and having to jump to WOI.

 

[Afropony]

Ooh, that actually sounds like a pretty decent set-up into using wing renewal except that after using Dair it's unlikely you'll be chasing them off the edge unlesss they DI really well.

 

[Katana_koden]

I'm actually getting used to doing it. If I don't manage to hit him with fair, I'll just retreat back with the wing renewal.

 

[Katana_koden]

Double Posted because not much input isn't put here lately and I was hoping this thread title gets bold so they can see some update on info.

Why Are we not using abusing the boost from our side step. Our side step has 4 frames of vulnerability.
Our U tilt hits on frame 2 but we basically have 6 frames which our sidestep boosts us closer to hit with the earliest hit box.

Another is the boosted angel walk thing from the sidestep. If you hold back during the side step, you buffer a turn, then your turn again the range is your profit.

Within that technique I managed to pull out interesting mindgames that worked. It even confuses me.
After the Second turn, you grab, makes his grab range feel 1337 but maybe I just had good spacing.
On the buffered turn, you SH jump with a bair. This helps his bair come out sooner ahead of you where you can respace yourself, or even carry the the bair down for a shield poke or surprised hit.

Instead of Bair, you can do a dair, helps hit with the earliest hit box and with its duration, you can space quite easily after it. Pivot grab set up, etc.

 

[Nitrix]

Within that technique I managed to pull out interesting mindgames that worked. It even confuses me.

.....and this sentence made me want to learn the technique

 

[Katana_koden]

Reverse nairs are easier to follow up. Or is it that pit fights better backwards?

 

[Pose]

so arrow looping is a no go? did you guys see that video by yass? that was pro arrow looping. o.o

 

[sagemoon]

arrow looping can work, but it's pretty much only for showboating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T19zfyuhNlY like the ending kill.

 

[Pose]

arrow looping can work, but it's pretty much only for showboating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T19zfyuhNlY like the ending kill.

Have you seen Yass's Vid? He makes very good use of his arrows and his arrow rain is like perfect. :O

although I'm not sure if it was jokingly or like serious arrow looping. ;o

 

[Katana_koden]

Yass aims for it, like constantly part of his meta game. I don't care because I learned how to space myself without getting punished.

 

[Afropony]

Can we get a Dair on MK while he's hitting us with tornado?

 

[Coffee™]

Can we get a Dair on MK while he's hitting us with tornado?

While he's actually hitting us with it, no. Uair can sometimes hit him while we're being hit in Nado tho.

 

[Afropony]

Has anyone ever tried footstooling mk while he's tornadoing into upB and then Dair? It'd be a pretty good way of countering when they try and do the Uair>tornado combo.

 

[Katana_koden]

Has anyone ever tried footstooling mk while he's tornadoing into upB and then Dair? It'd be a pretty good way of countering when they try and do the Uair>tornado combo.

sounds broken

If i can make out what you were trying to say,

We up B, he gimps with uair to tornado, then we dair for our last resort?

The footstool works... sometimes,
If he does it off stage, he most likely would die anyways or we would float back safely. Footstooling would save him

Onstage, I haven't tried on his tornado, but do to most mechanics you would only high jump and he won't tumble.

WOI can cancel his tornado, I think maybe the first few frames of tornado only.

 

[Phaigne]

WOI can cancel his tornado, I think maybe the first few frames of tornado only.

Yeah, this is true. Its very hard to cancel a tornado with Up-B.

 

[Katana_koden]

Angelic step can be smashed, regardless if you buffered the back turn, you will not run.
It increases your distance if smashed.
Can be applied after any move, even a crouch.

Interesting sakurai, why this coding for pit?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Yeah, this is true. Its very hard to cancel a tornado with Up-B.

Actually, it matters if they're pressing B or not. Pressing B and rising gives the mov more priority.

I tested this out a while back after I had accidentally canceled it and flipped out, thinking we had a new solid defense.

 

[Katana_koden]

Most character between the percent of 3- 5% or 5-7% or 7-9% can be hit by Dair but won't have enough hitstun- knockback to have them being able to evade or attack.

A character such as metaknight 3-5%, when hit with FH Dair are left with a state which makes footstools safely possible or a nair that hits before invincibility is available from an evade. A Fastfall footstool is also possible if they didn't go so high.

After footstool the most likely thing is to WoI to cancel jump momentum and fall with a Fair or Bair when they bounce on the floor since you CAN'T tech a Footstool. By this time they are at 24% from a weak Bair or 30% percent from a fair.

After that, they are forced to stand straight up.

Anyone have any input after this step. My best option to keep it going is to grab > dthrow> Uair to maybe another Uair. maybe we just need 80% for meta knight to kill with bair.