The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

[Wiseguy]

Midna's different in this case because her human form is nothing more than a conclusion to a storyline. The examples you gave (Sheik and Zamus) both play parts in the game.:

Actually, comparing Midna's human form to Zero Suit Samus would be fair. Both only make an appearance at the end of their respective games in a short, but memorable, cutscene. Since Sakura decided to include Zamus, I wouldn't rule out Twili Midna.

 

[Black/Light]

Took you long enough B/L...

. . . Give me a brake homs, it's not till I actually started seeing the TRUE appeal to Midna that I actually changed my mind (Like the interview with Eiji Aonuma who talked about how both he and Miyamoto really liked Midna and, even if the ending makes it so that he "doesn't see her coming back", that he is willing to bring her back if he sees enuff voices for her return. He also talks about how her personality was a large part of her appeal to the both of them and gamers also (they had "Girls that start off cold but warm up to you" in mind when making her)) .

I also went to the largest fan-forum for Midna that I could find. . . .thats mainly when I changed my mind.

People like Midna for being Midna. . .not for riding a cool wolf. They want to see this character they fell in love with as a complete character. . . not just as a extention of Wolf Link's body. . .which in turn would be a extention of Link if Link transformed into Wolf Link ( She would be 1/2 Wolf Link in move-set and body. . .and Wolf link would just be a extention of reg Link).
I understand this now because I am now one of those people .

And Twili Midna doesn't give a "happy ending". . . don't know whats soo "happy" about Midna braking the TwiMirror and making everyone say ". . . .Why Midna ?" well resulting in the devs having to probly twist the next TP game plot a lil (plot twist/ plot hole/ unknow item to connect the worlds?) just to bring Midna and the Twilight Realm back IF they choose to do so.

And Wiseguy said exactly what I was thinking. . .

 

[Chief Mendez]

Actually, comparing Midna's human form to Zero Suit Samus would be fair. Both only make an appearance at the end of their respective games in a short, but memorable, cutscene. Since Sakura decided to include Zamus, I wouldn't rule out Twili Midna.

Uh, aren't you forgetting a little game by the name of "Metroid: Zero Mission?" Playing as Zamus takes up a good 5th or 6th of the game.

Look, I could get much more into this, but what it all comes down to is who'd be more of an original, fun fighter? A floating, teleporting gremlin (no offense!), or what sounds (by Black/Light's suggested moveset) like a Zelda ripoff with a skimpy outfit?

I, for one, vote gremlin.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Uh, aren't you forgetting a little game by the name of "Metroid: Zero Mission?" Playing as Zamus takes up a good 5th or 6th of the game.

Look, I could get much more into this, but what it all comes down to is who'd be more of an original, fun fighter? A floating, teleporting gremlin (no offense!), or what sounds (by Black/Light's suggested moveset) like a Zelda ripoff with a skimpy outfit?

I, for one, vote gremlin.

LOL, Gremlin =P

Really I can only picture impish Midna making it into Brawl. That seems to be the one Nintendo wants to push, anyway. All official artwork of Midna has her all impy-fied. That's the one you meet and know throughout the game. Her true form thing seems to me to be more of a "WUT NO WAI!" moment, and she was seen so very breifly in that form that I don't think that they would bother using that form if they decided to put Midna in.

 

[Black/Light]

Uh, aren't you forgetting a little game by the name of "Metroid: Zero Mission?" Playing as Zamus takes up a good 5th or 6th of the game.

Look, I could get much more into this, but what it all comes down to is who'd be more of an original, fun fighter? A floating, teleporting gremlin (no offense!), or what sounds (by Black/Light's suggested moveset) like a Zelda ripoff with a skimpy outfit?

I, for one, vote gremlin.

1. I NEVER called Twili Midna a "Zelda ripoff" in ANY way. I said that as in. . ."uses some magic". I don't remember Zelda having and Trident and good melee attacks like I suggested (Shadow Magic+Trident fighting+Melee attacks with possiable hair attacks sound fun to me. . .)

2. Wow. . .one game (yeah, theres a cheat/ easter egg in the original. . .but that didn't really count IMO seeing as it was only a skin change and nothing else). From what I have seen Zero Suit is greatly known as a "easter egg" shown if you complete the game so IMO Twili Midna is comparable to Zero Suit. (At least you STILL see her half way into the game with the Zant take over cinama)
And like I said, Shiek is still only connected to Zelda in that one game. . .and played lil role in that game for the most part. At least we know that TP was mainly about getting Midna back into her Twili Form. . . which plays a great role.

Really, lets not get into this whole "who was more important to their series" because it wont go fare. "OMGZ, Twili Midna would be a wastes of time because she was only in the end (really she was in the Middle and end)!" Well I for one, like Midna enuff to want her to have as much impact on this game as she can and Twili Midna adds to her impact and was actually important in her respective game's plot.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Yeah, it would be a waste of time to consider that Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf were all in just about every Zelda game to date, and Zero Suit Samus has been an easter egg in every Metroid game except for Metroid Prime 1 and 2. But yeah, you're right. A 30 second appearance by Midna's true form definitely measures up to that.

 

[Chief Mendez]

METROID: ZERO MISSION.

It's a GBA game. About three quarters of the way through, Samus is stripped of her power suit, and infiltrates the space pirate HQ in her Zero Suit. It's a huge part of the game, she handles completely different than with her suit, and is anything BUT a skin change.

 

[Wiseguy]

Uh, aren't you forgetting a little game by the name of "Metroid: Zero Mission?" Playing as Zamus takes up a good 5th or 6th of the game.

Look, I could get much more into this, but what it all comes down to is who'd be more of an original, fun fighter? A floating, teleporting gremlin (no offense!), or what sounds (by Black/Light's suggested moveset) like a Zelda ripoff with a skimpy outfit?

I, for one, vote gremlin.

My bad, I never considered zero mission. Your point about Zamus is valid.

However, I don't understand your claim that Twili Midna would have a more boring moveset than her Imp form. Since we know from Twilight Princess what Imp Midna is capable of, Sakura would have little leeway in designing her moveset. However, we know from experience that when designing movesets for characters like Captain Falcon and Sheik (where the Smash team has had room be be creative) the result has been charcaters who are extremely original and fun to play as. Twili Midna could be the best of both worlds: possesing moves from her role in Twilight Princess as well as original moves.

 

[Black/Light]

Yeah, it would be a waste of time to consider that Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf were all in just about every Zelda game to date, and Zero Suit Samus has been an easter egg in every Metroid game except for Metroid Prime 1 and 2. But yeah, you're right. A 30 second appearance by Midna's true form definitely measures up to that.

You might think it's a "waste of time". . . .but who is really going to care if Sakurai does her as a transformation? In the end it's his choice how and what he spends his and Sora's time on. . .

 

[Chief Mendez]

And, for the record, I never asked "who's more important", because after Melee covered all the heavy hitters, importance means little.

I asked who'd be a funner character; a floating gremlin, or a "Zelda-inspired wizard".

I'd like to know why she'd have "good melee attacks", and a trident (outside of her Brawl)? She never gives any indication as to being physically potent, instead relting on her headdress (which, I'll note, Twili Midna never uses...mayhaps due to her fused shadow's absence?) and twilight portals.

 

[Chief Mendez]

You might think it's a "waste of time". . . .but who is really going to care if Sakurai does her as a transformation? In the end it's his choice how and what he spends his and Sora's time on. . .

Correction: Sora is not the development studio for SSBB. If you don't believe me, go read "How This Game Came To Be Made" on smashbros.com.

We have no idea what "The Studio's" name is yet.

 

[Wiseguy]

My bad, I never considered zero mission. Your point about Zamus is valid.

However, I don't understand your claim that Twili Midna would have a more boring moveset than her Imp form. Since we know from Twilight Princess what Imp Midna is capable of, Sakura would have little leeway in designing her moveset. However, we know from experience that when designing movesets for characters like Captain Falcon and Sheik (where the Smash team has had room be be creative) the result has been charcaters who are extremely original and fun to play as. Twili Midna could be the best of both worlds: possesing moves from her role in Twilight Princess as well as original moves.

Good point Wiseguy.

 

[Black/Light]

I ASSUME (yea, saw me) that having "skimpy" clouths such as her's would result in her not seeming as "doll like/ girly" as Princess Peach and Princess Zelda are. She seems to have been depicted as having some kind of "amazon like" confidance (which is one reason why some people think that the Twili were the members of Ganon's race (Gerudo (sp)) or even Shieks) and awareness of her body well still retaining her female charm (think K-Fox).

In other words, she looks like a good mix of "royal female charm" and "amazon beauty "

So, that depiction of her could result in her having more melee based attacks well still using some (not "OMZZZZ! ZeLDaS RiPpZ!") magic attacks.

And no trident because she "never used that outside of fused shadow form"? I guess Pitt had twin sword like daggers in Kid Icarus that I don't know of (I KNOW he had a mirror shield/ helm/ Pegasus Wings but I don't remember any daggers/ twin swords/ Windmill attacks with the bow etc ). And I guess Zelda used all those attacks she has in melee in OoT. . . even thou they are all from items Link used in OoT and not her http://youtube.com/watch?v=rOMXw8MmO9o
I guess CF always punched/ kicked fire in F-Zero . . . and wow, Shiek must have really been kicking a** in OoT as well because all of her attacks MUST have been seen in game. . . either that or Sakurai made them up based on her depiction in OoT.

Twili Midna is a blink sheet with her image, personality and known facts (like the tear drop of doom aka "Twili trear/ TP tear") being all Sakurai could base her around.
Image, amazon beauty and royal princess.
Personality, funny yet aware of herself (ware of her looks) and Midna's F-Shadow self wasn't just tossing magic around. . . it got meleeish.
Known facts, can use magic (see "twili tear") and could very well pull a trident out on someone (could get meleeish).

"never asked who's more important", Good, than al this talk of how Zero Suit (who Im sure didn't have a whip originaly) is different than Twili Midna.

And Sora is the company Sakurai made. . .as fare as we know he is the only member BUT this is still being made under Sora, the studio is just there to help/ work with him, etc.
Correction, it's just greatly believed that by him being the director of brawl and having his own company that this is being deved by Sora. . .
"The topics that have come up from time to time in column-me going into solitary to write the design document, founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game.".

vvvIm sure we are all use to seeing Samus in her suit. . . and Zelda with out Shiek. . .doesn't make them "dum".

 

[Stryks]

I still gotta say midna shouled be in imp form by herself...

Cause adding her in her human-like form is like adding farm boy Link, were use to seeing midna in her imp form, adding a form weve only seen for like 3 minutes at the end of the game, instead of what she looks like the 30+ hours of the game is dum, just because its her true form, well Link is a farmer, thats his true job/life, lets add farm link!! [/sarcasm]

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think I've used up Zamus by now, so...on to Sheik.

You argue with Sheik having an original moveset, and I counter that with: his moveset's based off of his actions in OOT, i.e. ninja-like movements, and of course the whole transformation setup.

In contrast, Twili Midna does zilch in her game. She talks, cries, and then disappears.

Also...'amazon-like?' We know the Twili are wizards banished for...well, being wizards. Nothing suggests Twili Midna to be a hand-to-hand fighter, and her Fused-Shadow-Octopus thing doesn't count, because that thing definitely won't show up outside of a Super Smash.

On a side note, Pit turning his bow into blades/Zamus turning her stun pistol into a whip are necessary changes so as to avoid redundancy/give those characters close-range capabilities.

 

[Chief Mendez]

One more thing: NO, SORA IS NOT MAKING BRAWL. THIS IS FACT.

 

[Stryks]

Mendez I mean he means the studio Sora, which is a totally siferent thing from the character, and use edit button will ya XD...

 

[Chief Mendez]

Mendez I mean he means the studio Sora, which is a totally siferent thing from the character, and use edit button will ya XD...

Well it wouldnn't kill him to use some proper punctuation and word structure.

And my apologies for double posting.

 

[Black/Light]

I think I've used up Zamus by now, so...on to Sheik.

You argue with Sheik having an original moveset, and I counter that with: his moveset's based off of his actions in OOT, i.e. ninja-like movements, and of course the whole transformation setup.

In contrast, Twili Midna does zilch in her game. She talks, cries, and then disappears.

Also...'amazon-like?' We know the Twili are wizards banished for...well, being wizards. Nothing suggests Twili Midna to be a hand-to-hand fighter, and her Fused-Shadow-Octopus thing doesn't count, because that thing definitely won't show up outside of a Super Smash.

On a side note, Pit turning his bow into blades/Zamus turning her stun pistol into a whip are necessary changes so as to avoid redundancy/give those characters close-range capabilities.

CORRECTION, Midna's F-S form DOES count.
If Sakurai gave Zelda a whole move-set based on items LINK used than why wouldn't he do the same with Midna? And, like I said, the APPEARANCE is "amazon like". Plus, why make both forms main in Magic use? Twili Midna doesn't even have the F-S piece we saw with Imp Midna. I see the trident as a "necessary change" to adding to her uniqueness.

But there are no "necessary changes" when you could ,in truth, work around them. He didn't HAVE to change Pitt like that but he WANTED to. He could have given Pitt his sheild and had him do sheild attacks well only using his Bow for ranged attacks. And they saw nothing wrong with ONLY giving Fox a Blaster soo why make up a whole new weapon for Zero so that she isn't close ranged only? Because he wanted to?

And another point, BOTH Pitt and Zero suit are long ranged fighters. BUT, Sakurai took them and gave then closer ranged UNIQUE weapons that were more or less already with them. . . Humm, sounds like something he could do for Twili Midna and her trident (meleeish weapon seeing as it aint as ranged as magic).

"NO, SORA IS NOT MAKING BRAWL. THIS IS FACT."
SHOW me where theres a OFFICIAL statement on what dev team is making SSBB. . . or drop it because as I said. . . "The topics that have come up from time to time in column-me going into solitary to write the design document, founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game"


edit- Good Jebus, don't tell me that you thought I mean't the character Sora? Sorry if I don't put every lil detail I assume people know. . . LOOK at how long my post are. I think the word structure is pretty good for a few mins of typing such post. . .

 

[Wiseguy]

I think I've used up Zamus by now, so...on to Sheik.

You argue with Sheik having an original moveset, and I counter that with: his moveset's based off of his actions in OOT, i.e. ninja-like movements, and of course the whole transformation setup.

.

I don't remember Sheik ever using a chain whip or throwing needles (or whatever you would call Sheik's "b" projectiles) in Oot. Those were original moves created specifically for Sheik's appearance in Melee. In Twili Midna appears, she could similarly be given unique moves.

 

[Falling Whistness]

I think the characters will be in their forms as we saw them in Twilight Princess. Zelda sans Shiek (Although Shiek may be a separate character for nostalgia) Midna by herself, and Link with wolf transformation.

 

[Keku]

I'm extremely excited if Midna makes it to Brawl in her imp-form, and I think it is a very likely choice for the developers. Twilight Princess is the top-selling game on the whole friggin' Wii-platform, and Nintendo is like ZELDA ZELDA ZELDA BUY TP all the time, and it's working! TP is truly a great game and it has wonderful characters, of which, IMO, Midna is one of the most essential ones. She is with you atleast 60% of the game, she has a very interesting personality and is in general a very well-made character.

As for why I'd like to see her only in her imp form: when playing TP, I always thought that playing the wolf-link with midna on his back was clumsy and boring. I couldn't use any of my cool Secret moves nor my even cooler items. I felt weak as a wolf, and I didn't like it at all. And why not the Twili-form then? Let's see then, ok, she looks very cool and all that, BUT, she appears in her true form in only, what, 3 minutes in the very end of the 50+ hour-game? For Nintendo to include her in that form, would be very unwise. It would ruin alot of the TP-experience for new-to-Wii-players.

The imp-Midna is almost a perfect choice for Brawl and for Nintendo. It introduces players to the Twilight Princess, and doesn't need so much imagination to create a moveset. I could think of her as a floaty Ness-Mewtwo -like character, and it would rock playing that one! She could have some very unique moves, and she has a perfect Super Move-candidate too, the Fused Shadow-metamorphosis.

Now how does that sound to you? Imp-Midna for Brawl!

 

[Chief Mendez]

Dear me.

Let's see. "www.smashbros.com". "english". "enter". "how This Game Came To Be Made". Sakurai states specifically that the studio making Brawl is an as-yet-unnamed team consisting of Nintendo employees, though we don't know from which parts. Like I said, this is fact.

As for Wiseguy: I said Sheik's moves are inspired from what little he does in OOT, which is move around quickly, pop up out of nowhere (and leave just as suddenly), and he generally gives off an air of knowing everything. Hence, a ninja. By comparison, what does Twili Midna do? NOTHING. There's not even the subtlest hint (besides her WIZARDLY backstory) that she'd be a close-range fighter.

Black/Light: Your argument about Pit and Zamus having modifications to their weapons still doesn't fit Twili Midna, because unlike them, she never holds that trident (which, by the by, is about 10 times too large for her). On top of that, I'm still not convinced that her limited showing in the game justifies a whole character. The only reason she'd be included in Twili form is if A) Imp Midna's already included, B) The Studio's exhausted all other character candidates, which is highly unlikely.

The fact is, we aren't going to get two Midnas. It'll be Imp Midna, or Twili Midna. And frankly, given those limits, I don't see what the argument is.

 

[Sandy]

Where has the development of this game been taking place?
Now that I'm independent, how did this project get started?
I answer these questions only for those who are interested.

Weekly Famitsu magazine in Japan publishes a column called Masahiro Sakurai's Thoughts on Video Games.
In that column I revealed some of these answers... and that explanation was perfect!
So, with the cooperation of the Famitsu Editorial Division, I'd like to reveal that explanation here.
Please have a look.

Weekly Famitsu Column "Masahiro Sakurai's Thoughts About Games"
Reproduced with permission from volumes 130`vol.132

[So, for a short while starting now, I will write in this column about the sequence of events that led to my involvement in this project.

It was May of 2005 on the day before the opening of E3 (The Electronic Entertainment Exposition-the world's largest video game show).
It was near the location of this event at Nintendo's Show Preview where they announced their efforts for the coming year.
It was announced that Smash Bros. was being developed for Nintendo's new game system, (tentatively) called the Revolution.


The theater filled with applause.
But I thought "Huh?"

At the party afterwards many people spoke to me asking "So, you're gonna make a new Smash Bros.?" But I had heard nothing about it, and in fact at that point in time there was no Smash Bros. project in motion anywhere.

Now, I am the designer who gave birth to the Smash Bros. games, but I own no rights to the franchise. So if Nintendo says they will make Smash Bros., they absolutely can. So I saw nothing strange about it whatsoever, but...


Flashback to fall of 2003.
It's shortly after I've resigned from the company I had worked for: Hal Labs-the makers of Smash Bros.

I was in the office of Nintendo President Satoru Iwata, my former boss at Hal Labs, for some idle conversation.

During the conversation, the topic of whether or not there would be a sequel to Smash Bros. came up.

This is what Mr. Iwata said:
"Smash Bros. was a game that came about through your connections because you, Sakurai, gained the understanding of a variety of people, so I don't think we be able to have just anyone create the game.
It is a franchise of great importance for Nintendo, so I can't promise you that we won't create a new game, but if we do I would definitely run it by you."

Because of these events, the announcement at E3 was a mystery.

Then one day during the E3 show...
I was called to the hotel where Mr. Iwata was staying, and I went to meet him in a room on the top floor.

The creation of a new Smash Bros. was for the most part decided.
I was called by Mr. Iwata and came here to meet him.
It didn't seem like grumbling would get things started...

"What would you like me to do?"
"I'd like you to be involved in the development of the new Smash Bros. in a position that is very close to a director-style position."

There was a reason Smash Bros. was announced at the meeting.
That was because when it was asked what product Nintendo would want to use to help it unveil its Wi-Fi Network, the first title on the list in both America and Japan was Smash Bros. So it was first decided to talk about Smash Bros. as an example of a Wi-Fi title, resulting in the game being announced before the development structure was finalized.

That was all fine and good, but it put me in a very tight spot.

As an independent game designer, I had come to E3 to try to foresee what type of work I would take on next.

Several companies had requested my game creation skills, but I asked them to wait until after I had seen everything at E3. That was so I could make plans after seeing each company's next gen machines with my own eyes.

Then this muscled its way in. What if I had declined this offer?

"We'd work to make the game independently, but we might be told to simply focus on making the game Wi-Fi compatible, and may be instructed not to lay a hand on any of the 26 characters in the current game, Super Smash Bros. Melee."

They would make Smash Bros. without changing any of the 26 characters in any way whatsoever. What kind of a new installment would that make. And Mr. Iwata wouldn't be too hot on the idea of just handing the franchise over to someone else. Probably.

So came the sudden request to create Smash Bros. and the related complications.
Should I do it? Or not?

A conversation I had with Eiji Aonuma, producer of the Legend of Zelda series, best represents what caused me to make my decision.

It was after Nintendo's announcement at a party packed with people from the industry.

"Sakurai-san! Please make Smash Bros.! You are gonna make it, right?"

"Well, uh, I wonder what will happen." (I was a little incoherent because I didn't know how to respond.)

"To be honest, if you aren't involved with it, that will probably mean the end to the Smash Bros. series.
Smash Bros. piles together so many elements from so many games and continues entertaining people without ever growing old. It's your skill, your sense, your thinking that's allowed that to happen. I don't think there's anyone who can replace you.
Creating a Smash Bros. with no soul would be a waste of time."

There is something that only I can create, and it is desired now. If I'm not going to show my strengths now, when will I? And among all the activities I could undertake, the best way to satisfy the most consumers, including those overseas, would probably be to create Smash Bros.

If the result of leaving it up to someone else was to cause regret for both the fans and the creators of the games related to Smash Bros., then I, too, would likely be deeply wounded.

So, I decided to become director. And as of May, 2005, I was the only member of the new Smash Bros. development team.

As an independent designer, my decision to participate and Smash Bros. development caused me a great deal of damage.

If I were to work as director, that would mean I would have to be involved in that project exclusively. What's more, it would require all of my strength to create a Smash Bros. caliber of game. It was not the type of "just providing a little input" type of work that I was trying to do going forward.

The result was that with the exception of one project that was already underway, I had to decline the other offers of work that I had received.

Including those individuals whom I had asked to wait until after E3. So I am filled with apologies for those people who had sent work my way.
If I could ask for one thing it would be that they not abandon me.

So what of the magnanimous development staff?
It turned out that Nintendo would build a new team around me in Tokyo.

In other words, we would create a new studio.

There was also a proposal to develop the game in Kyoto at Nintendo headquarters, but the there you'd draw a different people, and I had need to be in Tokyo anyway.

Additionally, there are several people in Tokyo with experience developing Smash Bros., and it was decided that they would join the team. And the name of talented staff members were offered up.

So, development would not be occurring at Hal Labs. But, the code and development environment of Super Smash Bros. Melee, which I had developed in the past, was offered. Having this versus not having this means the efficiency of the development changes dramatically, so I'm thankful.

But we still didn't have enough people. To create a game like Super Smash Bros. Melee, I would want a team with a minimum of 50 people. Getting together that many people would be a back-breaking task.

So it was that Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto introduced me to a "particular team" that had just completed a large-scale game.

Until the day comes when I can announce the team's name, I shall simply refer to them as "The Studio."

"Let's do it. Let's definitely do it!"
The words of The Studio's executive were very simple.

I was surprised when I saw the GameCube controllers they were using. The coating on the analog stick was worn down like an old eraser...
"Our guys have played Smash Bros. more than 10,000 times!"

It had to be a lie.
But when I saw their battle records, it showed a terrible number of matches that were not fabricated.

This was the result of years of uninterrupted playing of Smash Bros. during lunch breaks. There are often cases where your team doesn't understand the content of the game you're making, but that wouldn't be a concern this time.

It was promising.
This had to have been fate.
So, with the members of The Studio as our core, we dramatically increased our staff members.

Next we had to decided where we would work. In other words, we needed to create an office somewhere.
With the assistance of the head of Nintendo's Tokyo Branch I visited several possible office candidates and decided on A Location with convenient transportation links.

And, since I can't be a slave to the last train of the night, I decided to move to that area to.
The topics that have come up from time to time in column-me going into solitary to write the design document, founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game.

With me issuing requests, we determined room layout, and then began construction and brining in equipment. We proceeded under tight deadlines, and it's ended up being a difficult space for our staff, but thankfully our office steadily moved toward completion.

In the meantime, I presented and adjusted my design document, and connected with the creators of the required characters. It's the type of game design that cannot be completed without the cooperation of others.

So in October of 2005, Nintendo's newest office opened. And it was established solely so that we could create the new Smash Bros.

"We're really doing this..." I thought.
When they go this far for a single title, the only thing you can say is "that's Nintendo."

With The Studio at its nucleus, this office will probably continue to gather and add people. One doesn't get many opportunities to be placed in such a situation.

Also, more than anything, this Smash Bros. will be a game that we make while paying thanks to all the people who made so many different games and to all the fans who have supported them.
And we must pay respect to the original games while doing so.

But we will not flinch!
By which I mean, there will be no question about whether or not its fun.

The table has been set, so if I can't enjoy developing this game I will have failed.
Let's take it to the edge with a lot of weird stuff!
We're creating entertainment, so the creators have to have fun while creating it!

Development has only just begun.
And completion lies far off in the distance.

But now it is today, and I am full of energy

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well. That's what I call "proof."

 

[Paranoid_Android]

You might think it's a "waste of time". . . .but who is really going to care if Sakurai does her as a transformation? In the end it's his choice how and what he spends his and Sora's time on. . .

These numbers are off the charts!

 

[Black/Light]

Black/Light: Your argument about Pit and Zamus having modifications to their weapons still doesn't fit Twili Midna, because unlike them, she never holds that trident (which, by the by, is about 10 times too large for her) (Good Jebus. . . ZELDA NEVER used or even touched the ITEMS to which she uses as magical attacks in Melee now did she? And said ITEMS where massively reduced in power and effect to be used in SSBM. . . And tell me, when did Pitt have 2 daggers connected to make a bow? A bow =/= 2 random blades connecting. They changed Pitt from being a run-and-shoot character into being a light arrow shooting, 2 swords using swords man in one sling of their creative hand. Thats not "moderate" in change. . .and I still want to see Zero's whip in her games. . .that was COMPLETELY made up just like Pitts swords.
And what about Fox? He never actually did hand-to-hand before SSB. They mixed things they knew about him in his jet to make up his B moves and made up the hand-to-hand on the fact that he was in the army or w/e he was known for so it's reasonable to assume he would know that.
AND MIDNA = MIDNA. Twili Midna is the same Midna as the F-S Midna and Imp Midna. . . .Hell, they could make her use hair attacks/ magical tears AND a trident if they wanted to. "Twili Midna didn't w/e" Well, Peach and Zelda both didn't DO much if anything but we see how they were handled in their move-sets. I could very well see Twili Midna using Magic tears, a trident and some meleeish attacks.) . On top of that, I'm still not convinced that her limited showing in the game justifies a whole character (WELL, People could have said (and actually did say) Zero Suit wasn't "justified" to be in SSB by only being a short easter egg scene that most people wouldn't have seen and by being un-playable outside of one game. . . But they all stfu about how Samus has 2 characters now after a well of seeing her) . The only reason she'd be included in Twili form is if A) Imp Midna's already included,(As I said, TRANSFORMATION) B) The Studio's exhausted all other character candidates, which is highly unlikely (Yeah, I guess they just said "screw Tingle, we are going to make Shiek. . . .cause theres no other Zelda character in the LoZ world that we could choose. . .not even the Japan popular Tingle". REALLY, I would like to know what your basing these assumptions on.).

.The fact is (Sorry, I see no "fact" seeing as Sakurai didn't say this following statement. . . ), we aren't going to get two Midnas. It'll be Imp Midna, or Twili Midna. And frankly, given those limits, I don't see what the argument is. (I actually don't see why your arguing with me in the first place. . .Im not going to change my mind and none of this effects what Sakurai does in the case of Midna. All Im doing is showing that Sakurai could choose to add Twili Midna and make up her move-set with w/e he wants. . .don't know what you argueing to prove, he has already showed than he doesn't give a monkey's how much a character "did" when making their move-sets up. . . )

Well. That's what I call "proof."

Proof of what? Sakurai JUST started Sora. . . this only proves that Nintendo is giving him all the support, room, tech and man power he needs to do brawl seeing as he is no longer with Hal and doesn't have the things he needs to make such a game by himself. What, do you expect a inde-dev to start off with enuff money, space, members/ workers and tech to make such a game in only 2 years? Nintendo knows this is important so they are doing everything they can to make sure this works out for the best. . .

@ Keku: I don't see how Twili Midna could ruin jack. . .

@P-A. . . .Why are you quoting me to show what I have already seen?

 

[Chief Mendez]

For the last time, Sora is not making Brawl. The unnamed "Studio" is. "The Studio" is not just extra manpower, it is not support staff...it is the maker of the game. Stop debating facts.

And I'll keep arguing for the same reason anyone argues anything: I believe to the contrary. Sure, what you and I say will have no effect on the game's outcome, but I (at least) enjoy debating things, and will continue to do so until you either see it my way, give up and stop posting, or we get some official statement and one of us is proven right. No offense intended, by the way.

 

[Black/Light]

"SHOW me where theres a OFFICIAL statement on what dev team is making SSBB. . . or drop it because as I said. . . "The topics that have come up from time to time in column-me going into solitary to write the design document, founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game"

NOW show me anything stating the dev team. . . I already showed you that "Sora" was "related to his development of SSBB".

And argueing is only good it you expect to get something out of it or prove a point. . . MY point is that YES, Twili Midna can very well be in SSBB as a transformation of Imp Midna and that YES, she could very well have Magical/ Trident/ hair and Meleeish attacks if Sakurai so pleases. I have made my case and shown examples of other cases of this happening, you haven't dissproved it nor have you shown that there hasn't been a case like this before.(which is why I guess you stopped argueing. . .)

LMAO! "I (at least) enjoy debating things, and will continue to do so until you either see it my way, give up and stop posting, or we get some official statement and one of us is proven right.". Funny. . .
1. You shouldn't have that "keep fighting till the other person gives up" BS thought in debates. Just because you keep trying to argue doesn't = you winning. At a point, the debate is clearly won by other matters. . . not how long someone goes on for or personal opinion.
2. You sound like someone who got their a** kicked but starts going on about how they will never stop fighting .

 

[Keku]

Guys, you're going way off-topic. Make a new thread or stop arguing it here.

 

[Sandy]

Or take it to the Debate Hall.

 

[Chief Mendez]

"SHOW me where theres a OFFICIAL statement on what dev team is making SSBB. . . or drop it because as I said. . . "The topics that have come up from time to time in column-me going into solitary to write the design document, founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game"

NOW show me anything stating the dev team. . . I already showed you that "Sora" was "related to his development of SSBB".

And argueing is only good it you expect to get something out of it or prove a point. . . MY point is that YES, Twili Midna can very well be in SSBB as a transformation of Imp Midna and that YES, she could very well have Magical/ Trident/ hair and Meleeish attacks if Sakurai so pleases. I have made my case and shown examples of other cases of this happening, you haven't dissproved it nor have you shown that there hasn't been a case like this before.(which is why I guess you stopped argueing. . .)

LMAO! "I (at least) enjoy debating things, and will continue to do so until you either see it my way, give up and stop posting, or we get some official statement and one of us is proven right.". Funny. . .
1. You shouldn't have that "keep fighting till the other person gives up" BS thought in debates. Just because you keep trying to argue doesn't = you winning. At a point, the debate is clearly won by other matters. . . not how long someone goes on for or personal opinion.
2. You sound like someone who got their a** kicked but starts going on about how they will never stop fighting .

Okay then:

It turned out that Nintendo would build a new team around me in Tokyo.

In other words, we would create a new studio...

...So it was that Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto introduced me to a "particular team" that had just completed a large-scale game.

Until the day comes when I can announce the team's name, I shall simply refer to them as "The Studio."

When he says "founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game," I'm 99.9% sure he's just referring to the fact that he did in fact found a new studio after his directorial position for Brawl was secured.

So that's one thing out of the way.

Actually, I couldn't fit my rebuttal into my last post due to the Wii's Internet Browser's limitation when entering text. It's already a pain in the rear to type out posts on the thing, and it gets worse when it craps out on me and I have to retypre everything. I do, however, have a counter to your points. (And let's not debate...debating. It's not important, other than you knowing that I'll argue despite your adamant stance on the subject. The point is, I'll be getting my points out there, and you'll be showing yours. What comes of it comes of it.)

So...the rebuttal.

(Good Jebus. . . ZELDA NEVER used or even touched the ITEMS to which she uses as magical attacks in Melee now did she? And said ITEMS where massively reduced in power and effect to be used in SSBM. . . And tell me, when did Pitt have 2 daggers connected to make a bow? A bow =/= 2 random blades connecting. They changed Pitt from being a run-and-shoot character into being a light arrow shooting, 2 swords using swords man in one sling of their creative hand. Thats not "moderate" in change. . .and I still want to see Zero's whip in her games. . .that was COMPLETELY made up just like Pitts swords.
And what about Fox? He never actually did hand-to-hand before SSB. They mixed things they knew about him in his jet to make up his B moves and made up the hand-to-hand on the fact that he was in the army or w/e he was known for so it's reasonable to assume he would know that.
AND MIDNA = MIDNA. Twili Midna is the same Midna as the F-S Midna and Imp Midna. . . .Hell, they could make her use hair attacks/ magical tears AND a trident if they wanted to. "Twili Midna didn't w/e" Well, Peach and Zelda both didn't DO much if anything but we see how they were handled in their move-sets. I could very well see Twili Midna using Magic tears, a trident and some meleeish attacks.)

Okay, point made about Zelda's magic and Pit's blades. But, if we go by your logic here: "They mixed things they knew about him in his jet to make up his B moves and made up the hand-to-hand on the fact that he was in the army or w/e he was known for so it's reasonable to assume he would know that", your supposed moves for Twili Midna don't hold water. The only things we know for sure about Twili Midna, are that she's a princess, she's a wizard, and she's hot (N/A). From an objective point of view, the only logical thing would be to give her magical abilities.

Again, Peach and Zelda have done so much more than Twili Midna's "stand, talk, cry, evaporate" resume'.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Obviously, if Midna gets in the game (which is looking quite likely at the moment), it'll be in her imp form. Whether her twili form appears in some shape or form (as a transformation, super smash or probably a trophy if they return) is largely up to development team. I'd like to see it in some way or form, but as long as I get to use Midna at all, I'm satisfied.

 

[Bobby Emerald]

I prefer Midna in her real form, you know, the sexy one, lol.

 

[Sandy]

If you need to reference Sakurai, look at my previous post.

 

[Black/Light]

Okay then:

When he says "founding my own company, Sora Ltd., moving, and getting sick from overworking were all related to my development of the new Smash Bros. game," I'm 99.9% sure he's just referring to the fact that he did in fact found a new studio after his directorial position for Brawl was secured.

So that's one thing out of the way.

This whole part of the arguement is moot. There has actually not been any statment on who this game is being made under (as in, the dev team name). We only know that the Director/ dev of this game has his own company named Sora. . . by all mean, he would NEED a "team built around him" if he is to make a game seeing as he could very well be the only Sora worker.

Okay, point made about Zelda's magic and Pit's blades. But, if we go by your logic here: "They mixed things they knew about him in his jet to make up his B moves and made up the hand-to-hand on the fact that he was in the army or w/e he was known for so it's reasonable to assume he would know that", your supposed moves for Twili Midna don't hold water. The only things we know for sure about Twili Midna, are that she's a princess, she's a wizard, and she's hot (N/A). From an objective point of view, the only logical thing would be to give her magical abilities.

*Sigh*
I said "she could have some MAGIC (key word, magic)/ trident (like I said, Midna = Midna and Midna used a trident. PLUS, it was used by Midna in the god*** game! It's much more connected to Midna than "din's fire" and so on was connected to Zelda in OoT)/ MeleeISH (ISH, as in "Not a main thing" as in " she could have a few kicks here and there, like a few A moves like Fair for example". move for her move-set.
Need to see when Midna actually did something melee like? F-S Midna with trident, both of the times she was seen with it. And when Midna killed (to some level. . ) Zant with her hair. What is there to argue with this? What, you stand by your " Twili Midna would be a Zelda rip" statement?

Also, from what I have seen, Peach didn't go around booty-bumping people when she was being held captive by Browser. She has some meleeISH attacks yet she hasn't done any of them. Hell, even Zelda has a few meleeish attacks like her throw v and maybe another I forgot.

Again, Peach and Zelda have done so much more than Twili Midna's "stand, talk, cry, evaporate" resume'.

In OoT all Zelda did was hold Ganon down (not a attack. . .actually thats were her grab in melee came from) and all Peach did in the Mario games was get taken alway by Browser well Mario fights half-past-dead to get her back.
Wow, that just racks of "do the booty-bump and bloke with poor Toad" right?

And WHAT did CF do in his game? Drive a race car. . .
WOW, how did they make a move-set for that?

What did Doc do? Heal people with drugs. . . but I guess thats OK because Mario=Mario=Mario right, so no matter what he looks like they could still use things in his other forms to make a move-set for him right?

Adult Link (for some odd reason) couldn't use a boomerang in OoT yet he has had it for the past 2 SSB games. . . Wait, young Link could use the boomerange and Link=Link so it's no big deal to give him a weapon only his younger self could use to build up his move-set right?

Now, Im going to show a example, a mock up Twili Midna basic idea I have. . .
B- Twili Tear. Charges as Midna holds her hand toward her eye well closing her eyes. Increases in size (unseen till release) when charged. Max size, base ball sized. Goes in a str8 line and has the same light effects as in TP.
B^- Shadow Spinner. Must be charged up. A twirl/ spinning gust of Shadow magic appears at her feet well she bends down low. Gets as much range as G&W's B^. Can glide on the ground if directed to the stage.(Spinner)
B>- Twili Gale. Small, aimable, chargable tornado that spins characters backward. Can even trap a character inside for a short time well spinning them away. (Gale boomerang)
Down air- A downward stump with the same look as she had when she went back to the TR.
These^^^ could be her magical attacks with a few kicks tossed in here and there and Trident attacks domaneting the rest.
Thats just a short view of how I can personaly see her working.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well, it could just be me, but that movelist seems alot like Zelda.

Imp Midna uses the fused shadows. Twili Midna is never seen in the same place as them. If any average Joe who played TP was shown a picture of Imp and Twili Midna, then was asked which one turns into "the octopod of cel-shaded coolness", which would he pick? Twili Midna using her most powerful, awe-inspiring, bowel-loosening weapon for standard attacks doesn't really make sense to TP players.

Yeah, we don't know the name, but it isn't Sora (which was my whole point). Ninty hasn't just built Sakurai's studio for him, and even if he is the only Sora employee, Sora isn't going to show up as the developer in the credits (though I might fathom the logo making an appearance at the end of the credits along with all the copyrights). You can't say Sora's making Brawl. Some other studio is.

 

[Black/Light]

Well, it could just be me, but that movelist seems alot like Zelda. Yeah, because we all know that Zelda throws a tornado projectile of shadow magic, uses a trident and has a "spinner" attack thats based off of TP's "spinner" item. . . (yeah, it's just you. . . )

Imp Midna uses the fused shadows.And Young Link is the one that uses the boomrang. . .not adult Link. . .and Zelda doesn't even use the items she has as her moves. . . yeah, lets forget all about my post full of points . Twili Midna is never seen in the same place as them *POINTS AT ZELDA!*.. . .AND Midn=Midna=Midna (she is the same d*** character!) If any average Joe who played TP was shown a picture of Imp and Twili Midna, then was asked which one turns into "the octopod of cel-shaded coolness", which would he pick? What "avrg Joes" plays a whole LoZ game? This aint something a "arvg Joe" would play to the end unless they are a fan. . . Twili Midna using her most powerful, awe-inspiring, bowel-loosening weapon for standard attacks doesn't really make sense to TP players. And you base this on what, your opinion? And I guess Zelda useing the "i-ma-going-SSJin-level-3-with-this-power" item from OoT (Din's Fire) as a small projectile bomb like attack didn't go to well with LoZ fans right (kinda confusing how a giant eruption of fire turns into a small bomb. . . just like all the items of Zelda's attacks, soo "untrue to the game")? What about Link's master Sword. . . makes no sense that the sword able to bring down Ganon (who the Trident couldn't kill) doesn't auto kill in SSB right? What about Browser's size? When the hell then Pika get that big? Ohh, my head hurts because soo many things don't make sense

Yeah, we don't know the name (That SHOULD be the end of it. . .but wait, you have more!), but it isn't Sora (which was my whole point) (mind proving this if "we don't know the name"?). Ninty hasn't just built Sakurai's studio for him, and even if he is the only Sora employee, Sora isn't going to show up as the developer in the credits (WOWW, you see the future now ) (though I might fathom the logo making an appearance at the end of the credits along with all the copyrights). You can't say Sora's making Brawl (I CAN say the man who is corrently the head of Sora is making SSBB and I can safely assume that said company could likely be titled as the dev behind brawl. . .because Sakurai is the dev of this game. So yeah, I can. . . but again, this whole thing is MOOT because neither side knows what the hell is the name of w/e will be put down as the dev team. . .and it aint got jack to do with Midna. . .) . Some other studio is.

This is getting boring, seems like you lost homs. . . I gave you 2 chances to combat my points and BOTH times you both greatly ignored them well making up BS like "it wouldn't make sense to TP fans to have Midna use a weapon Midna used. . .(but EVERYTHING about Zelda's move-set being based off of item's LINK used makes sense. . .riiiight).".

You want to keep debating, STFU about the subject that is mostly taken as thruth by the majority of people (Sora=Brawl dev) to which neither side can find official statments about (as of yet. . .I have yet to research it) and combat my points . . .and stop this " as long as I close my eyes and keep going IZ WINNZ!" thought you seem to have.

It's useless to debate if one side is ignoring the points persented in front of them.

(OOHH, Forgot to say. Sora is, as of now, developing 2 games. . . Sakurai is working on both brawl and a other unknown game that he couldn't put off. . .hummm)

 

[Chief Mendez]

This is getting boring, seems like you lost homs. . . I gave you 2 chances to combat my points and BOTH times you both greatly ignored them well making up BS like "it wouldn't make sense to TP fans to have Midna use a weapon Midna used. . .(but EVERYTHING about Zelda's move-set being based off of item's LINK used makes sense. . .riiiight).".

You want to keep debating, STFU about the subject that is mostly taken as thruth by the majority of people (Sora=Brawl dev) to which neither side can find official statments about (as of yet. . .I have yet to research it) and combat my points . . .and stop this " as long as I close my eyes and keep going IZ WINNZ!" thought you seem to have.

It's useless to debate if one side is ignoring the points persented in front of them.

(OOHH, Forgot to say. Sora is, as of now, developing 2 games. . . Sakurai is working on both brawl and a other unknown game that he couldn't put off. . .hummm)

I'm just going to let the developer argument go, so when you reply to this, don't mention it. Also, how about some freakin' civility? There's no need for insults; I'm just saying what I think.

Anyways, on to business.

Yeah, your set does resemble Zelda's. An aimable projectile? A spinning recovery? Sure, it's not spot-on-the-money exact, but you gave her magic, magic, magic, and magic. If she really is going to differentiate herself from the other other princess, and (as you suggest), be a more hands-on type of character, then why do you have her set up like that?

Next, you compare her trident to Din's Fire. But did (could) Din's Fire blow up Hyrule Castle? Did anyone who played Ocarina even use the thing on a regular basis outside of lighting multiple braziers at once? Sure, give Midna her insanely destructive tool of death. And while you're at it, why don't we let Samus fire off her Phazon Beam? Heck, Link could probably use some Light Arrows. And don't forget Ness; Rockin' Omega for the win!

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible for The Studio to give Midna her trident, I'm just saying that from the way it was portrayed in TP (being bested only by Ganondorf, the King of Evil), the fans would wonder why.

Anf finally, I've got some little details to clear up. 1- The Master Sword doesn't kill Ganon in TP in one hit. Only after a long, drawn out, three stage battle

Spoiler

(four if ya' count Zelda)

is Ganon off-guard enough for Link to land a vital blow. It's the blade of evil's bane, so it kills him fo' real, as opposed to any other sword, which presumably wouldn't be able to, uh...pierce his evil or something. 2- By "average Joe", I meant anyone who played through Twilight Princess who isn't you. Try not to be so nitpicky with your responses, alright?

 

[Black/Light]

I'm just going to let the developer argument go, so when you reply to this, don't mention it. Also, how about some freakin' civility? There's no need for insults; I'm just saying what I think.
(Sorry if you feel Im insulting you, it just gets annoying when someone wants to debate yet ignores your points forcing you to run around in looped arguements. . .)
Anyways, on to business.

Yeah, your set does resemble Zelda's. An aimable projectile (. . . How many OTHER characters have aimable projectiles? Off the top of my head, Samus/ Both Links/ Ness and Yoshi. . . yes, they are all rips . What makes these different are how they are used and their effects. . . not being aimable projectiles or not) ? A spinning recovery (. . .Zelda spins BUT her recovery is teleportation. My idea wasn't Midna "spinning" but haveing spinning shadow magic at her lower leg/ feet area and works much like the Spinner in TP (as in, she doesn't spin. . .she just rides the spinner magic). And omg Link and and Samus are Zelda ripping cause theres some kind of spinning in their B^. . .(or Zelda is ripping them )) ? Sure, it's not spot-on-the-money exact, but you gave her magic, magic, magic, and magic.(Only for her more special areas seeing as it would be odd to use magic for your weakest attacks. . .) If she really is going to differentiate herself from the other other princess, and (as you suggest), be a more hands-on type of character, then why do you have her set up like that? (Cause we have yet to see a magic user who only uses magic in weak attacks. Plus, thats only 4 magical moves. . . being more "hands on" with her trident + meleeish attacks would GREATLY out number those 4)

Next, you compare her trident to Din's Fire. But did (could) Din's Fire blow up Hyrule Castle?(IDK, was Samus's B^ limated in her games? Was Zelda's teleportation item limated to only jumping around in one room or could you pop around a castle with it? Was Browser not ALOT larger than he is in Melee in Mario games? Could rest hurt your enemy in the Pokemon game? The fact is, they change the effects of the attacks and items they use to suit the game. That means anything from making Kriby grow like 2-3 feet tall too massively down sizeing a character like Browser. In the games M2 blow up a VERY large lab with physic. . .I think that relates to what your asking) Did anyone who played Ocarina even use the thing on a regular basis outside of lighting multiple braziers at once? Sure, give Midna her insanely destructive tool of death. And while you're at it, why don't we let Samus fire off her Phazon Beam? Heck, Link could probably use some Light Arrows (Lots of people actually DO think light arrows will be in the game. . . with Zelda when and if she gets a new move-set and her sword from TP. . .and the big deal is were homs?). And don't forget Ness; Rockin' Omega for the win! (Nurf any of these attacks and they could be moves. . .*points at M2*)

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible for The Studio to give Midna her trident, I'm just saying that from the way it was portrayed in TP (being bested only by Ganondorf, the King of Evil), the fans would wonder why.(Again, I point at M2. M2 was protrayed as. . . well, THE strongest in his game and wasn't bested by anyone. . . had HUGE amounts of phsyic powers that resulted in him blowing up a lab the size of a small island. Now, common sense only tells us fans that this power would have to be nuffed if he is to appear in SSB. . .just like Sonic's speed will have to be nuffed to fit him in. And it's not like any one would complain about her trident. . .they would just say " Why does she have a tri. . OHH YEA! Thats that trident she used! So thats how they based her move-set. . .*goes on playing the game*)
Anf finally, I've got some little details to clear up. 1- The Master Sword doesn't kill Ganon in TP in one hit(. . . I didn't say it did, I said that its strong enuff to kill Ganon. . . and if thats the case and it is the only thing that brings down the great king of "evil" than something like Jpuff, Fox or Pichu should be auto killed. . . but as we all know, attacks and weapons in SSB are changed to make things fair right? ) . Only after a long, drawn out, three stage battle

Spoiler

(four if ya' count Zelda)

is Ganon off-guard enough for Link to land a vital blow. It's the blade of evil's bane, so it kills him fo' real, as opposed to any other sword, which presumably wouldn't be able to, uh...pierce his evil or something. (It's still a powerful blade. . .got nuffed like anything else but noone minds) 2- By "average Joe", I meant anyone who played through Twilight Princess who isn't you. Try not to be so nitpicky with your responses, alright? (Sorry if theres some "arvg Joe" definition that relates to playing hard core games. . . unless you mean't "Avrg Zelda fan". . .and the point still stands )

There. . . .