The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[MorphedChaos]

MetaKnight vs Marth :

Why Marth won't dominate the competitive scene if MK is banned, and most of all why he won't get banned ? Because he has a lot more weaknesses than MK : He's taller (so his shield is vulnerable to pokes, and projectiles can touch him easily), he's not as fast as MK is, and most of all he's gimpable ! Marth can get spiked and not being able to recover... Moreover, his recovery is very easy to edgehog, its rapidity betrays Marth.

Furthermore, Marth maybe doesn't have big disadvantages match-up. But his advantages are always slight, or next to even. He has a slight desadvantage against Snake, DDD, is even with ROB, DK for example, and is still beatable by Falco, Sheik... Once you get into his sword range, it's easier to fight him.

Last but not least, Marth has punishable moves... His smashes are punishables more than MK Dsmash is, his Dolphin Slash or Counter, if predicted, can also be badly punished...

My point is : Marth has maybe good match-ups (not as good as Mk's though), but has still multiple weaknesses that make him a lot less broken than MK. Marth doesn't deserve the ban, MK does.
And no need to say that MK is a lot easier to play than Marth is.

Thats basically what that boils down to, Can't say much more clearly then that without sounding like a machine. At least for the whole MK/Marth discussion.

 

[TeeVee]

The marth argument is stupid, we should be discussing 2 things...

Hobo's top 3, all MK results and the consequences of what happens when we ban him (What will MK mainers do? Will the Brawl communtiy split?)

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think Yuna started the marth thing to get us off track of the real issue.

We did discuss earlier that we would ban MK on how the ratings of the Hobo 11 were, looks like MK just dominates too much. I'm still saying Ban.

 

[Zelc]

I think Yuna started the marth thing to get us off track of the real issue.

We did discuss earlier that we would ban MK on how the ratings of the Hobo 11 were, looks like MK just dominates too much. I'm still saying Ban.

No, I think Yuna had a good point. If we're going to ban a character, we need a reason to do so. Yuna argued the previously suggested reason would also justify banning Marth after MK is banned. If that's not acceptable, then our reason for banning MK is flawed.

Of course, I think there is a reason to ban MK that wouldn't hit Marth. But it's unfair to say Yuna started the Marth discussion just to distract us.

 

[AlAxe]

the reason MK is so out of hand is that he a distinct advantage over EVERY other character. The closest any character can get to him is 55:45 which is still a significant disadvantage. Every other character in the game has multiple matchups that put them at a disadvantage which doesn't allow any one of those characters to completely dominate. After a ban there will still be a top tier (probably Snake, DDD, or Falco) but all of those characters have weaknesses. Banning MK will lead to more diversity at tournaments and all the MK players, especially the top level ones, switching to other characters will surely help to advance the Metagame of the rest of the cast.

 

[Julz]

Metaknight is a no risk, high reward character. If he continues to lack neutral matchups he should then see a ban.

Marth on the other hand has some risk at higher levels of play where the skill level is the same. Both players stand an even chance at winning. Hence it would be wiser for the marth main to pick a secondary that is a hard counter for his opponent in order to increase the chance of winning. Marth is a good main but not a great counterpick character(secondary).

 

[ShadowLink84]

the reason MK is so out of hand is that he a distinct advantage over EVERY other character. The closest any character can get to him is 55:45 which is still a significant disadvantage.

I am sorry but when i saw this I could not help but wonder what crack you are using.
55:45 consitutes a neutral advantage because the oppnopent hardly has an advantage over you. This is not a distinct advantage.

MK has a good amount of 60:40 so there isn't a large advantage nor is it distinct.

it becomes distinct when it is 70:30 but not anything before it because those are soft counters and are still very winnable.

 

[IShotLazer]

Why is there talk of banning Marth?
Anyway, I saw some post earlier all saying that right now is too early to ban Metaknight.
In fact some people went as far as saying he should be banned within YEARS.
Consider this.
We have progressed in Brawl MUCH faster than we have in Melee. There was already a base off of Melee and it stimulated the progress of Brawl extremely quickly, pretty much to the point where discoveries aren't being made at all anymore just after 8 months. Throughout the past couple months nothing major has progressed the Metagame to anything spectacular except the apparent dominance of Metaknight. He just keeps getting better. Do you want to waste a possible couple years on just using Metaknight? What if a fix did call for something soon. What if it wasn't just a waiting game and we had to step in and solve it ourselves? Instead of having to go through such an aggravating process we could just end it in the near future. Lets say the ban was rubbish, we can just retract it. We won't be wasting years if that happened, we might waste a couple months, months in which it is guaranteed that other characters will flourish. The negatives in this perspective down outway the postitives at all. If we ban Metaknight, the game is still expanding and flourishing even if the ban is uncalled for, the worst thing that can happen is that people are down ONE character of 39 characters. Big whoop. If the ban is a good idea it opens everything up.

Also I see a lot of comparisons to Sheik back in Melee and quite frankly that's a ridiculous comparison.
Sheik was good and moderately easy to pick up but even in the beginning she had problems with other characters. When the scene started developing people didn't really use Sheik, I don't know why but they didn't. In fact most people that bring up that argument, I'd like for them to name a time in which Sheik has dominated tournaments. They won't be able to, because mostly it never existed. Other characters were ALWAYS playable. Metaknight wins at least SEVENTY percent of ALL tournaments. Sheik NEVER did that. Sheik never did a percent even CLOSE to such a number.

On a side not because I saw this talked about as well...
If the SBR said that Metaknight should be banned it will probably mean that almost every TO out there would listen to it. The SBR's judgment is beyond mine, and quite frankly above any ONE person's judgment as well, and they haven't really let us down on anything major.. The only problem I see is company sponsors might not have a similar ban. EVO was a big example at how efforts can completely be twarted by ignorance to a community. Thankfully MLG won't be having that problem namely because well, they own the community now... XD.

On an end note, I think a ban is a good idea and should be implemented within the near future. Within the next couple months especially if things continue to worsen, Metaknight should be banned.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

MK getting top 3 at hobo, where there were so many good players is a great boost for the pro ban crowd. I mean Azen used him twice in a row, seriously, this is not OK because these great players are going to make people think "Oh, these amazing people have to use MK to win, so I do too. That is what this boils down to.

 

[Yuna]

Let's try this. A character should be banned if he has no true neutral (50:50) or worse matchups. Thus, MK should be banned and Marth shouldn't.

A new arbitrary rule we just made up just so that it fits Meta Knight and only Meta Knight? It sounds like it to me. I'm not saying it's entirely wrong (though I disagree), I'm saying: It just sounds like you're just reaching for a definition which can only fit Meta Knight so you can ban him.

1) Suppose the entire metagame is composed of MK, whose worst matchups other than the mirror is 55:45. If someone new joined and wanted to have the best matchups possible, he would be forced to pick MK to go even.

Inane logic. With Meta Knight gone, there will be a new charcter with "the best match-ups possible". If someone wants to have the best match-ups possible, they'd be "forced" to pick that acharacter.

Choosing MK in this metagame is strictly dominant over choosing any other character. If people played to win, the metagame will collapse into one character, which is bad.

Yah, with Meta Knight gone, it will be Marth, D3 and G&W, pretty much. Maybe R.O.B. in there somewhere. But your best bet would be Marth or Marth + someone else.

Thus, if people wanted to play the win, the metagame would collapse into 1-2 characters.

Suppose instead the entire metagame was composed of Marth post MK being banned. Marth has several "neutral" matchups (Snake is ahead 45:55, and DDD and ROB are even). If someone new joined and wanted to have the best matchups possible, Marth is only a weakly dominant choice; he could choose Snake, DDD, or ROB and be just as well off (well, Snake would be better than choosing Marth). Thus, even if Marth's popularity skyrockets, he cannot force the metagame to be centralized around himself.

Meta Knight enjoys 55:45s and 5-4s against a few characters, actually. Marth would still be the best bet and if everyone wanted to the highest odds, they would flock to Marth, thus the metagame would revolve around him, whining would ensue, etc. etc.

What I wanna know is:
If this happens, will we then ban Marth? After all, so many people are willing to ban merely for the sake of popularity, no real brokenness required. Marth willl the arguably best character in the game or at least one of the best, possess no bad matchups and have 1 jillion people playing as him.

If this happens, will we ban Marth?

3) After MK's ban, there will hopefully be greater diversity in characters played and placing, so other top tier characters will have to meet their counters more often.

But you see, Marth has no counters. Thus, because of this, he'll become the best! The others enjoys better matchups than him against the lower tiered charcters but they suffer counter matchups. As you say, more characters will be playable, thus people will play lower tiered characters that serve as counters for the high tiers.

But wait, since all of the high tiers except Marth will now have to face counters relatively often, Marth will rise and become the new shiny object everyone wants. And flocking will ensue.

This will reduce their placings. However, they will also be facing an easier matchup against the most prevalent character, often gaining 10 points from facing Marth over MK. This will improve their placings.

Flocking to the safest bet... after all, it's human nature and you've already argued "What if people want the greatest chances of winning?".

The net effect varies for each character, but it's entirely possible for several to retain top positions (or even improve) despite facing more counters.

Why would they do that? "Oh, I'm gonna win now, oops! A Pikachu has appeared!".

Like how? Balancing the game out better than Sakurai could? Competitive players seek to minimize chance and maximize competition. When everything boils down to one character, where will the competition go? Where will the tournament attendance go? It'll drop.

No we don't. The rules are not written to maximize competition. If we really wanted to do that, we'd just ban every single character in Top- and High Tier like I suggested 6 months ago. Then we'd have a whole bunch of characters who counter each other or go even against each other and the game would devolve into a counterpickingfest. But at least we'd have more than 3-4 viable-ish characters.

Or we could do as some have suggested: Handicaps. Or hack the game.The rules are written to prevent minimization of competition.

adding to my last post

Can you prove that they weren't just the best players there? That they just happened to have picked Meta Knight? That Meta Knight won and placed well because he's really broken instead of just being popular, especially among the top players of the world?

The mere fact that there were many good Meta Knights at Hobo11 proves nothing except that he's popular.

Stuff.

Yes, Marth is different from Meta Knight. This is a no-brainer.

The point is that despite all of these numerous weaknesses and differences, Marth somehow still manages to go, at worst, even against the entire cast. Which means that statistically, he'll be among the most viable characters in the game.

He's got weaknesses but he's also got numerous strenths.

The marth argument is stupid, we should be discussing 2 things...

Hobo's top 3, all MK results and the consequences of what happens when we ban him (What will MK mainers do? Will the Brawl communtiy split?)

What I said above.

Were you there? Did you watch the matches? Were the sets where MK fought other characters played by players of equal skill wholly "unfair"? Did the opposing party have to work so much harder, yet still lose badly due to MK being "too good"?

Or are you just looking at the results, seeing MK and going "He must be broken!"? The one does not prove the other.

I think Yuna started the marth thing to get us off track of the real issue.

We did discuss earlier that we would ban MK on how the ratings of the Hobo 11 were, looks like MK just dominates too much. I'm still saying Ban.

You weren't even here when the discussion started. Making random assumptions is bad since they'll be easily refuted.

the reason MK is so out of hand is that he a distinct advantage over EVERY other character.

False.

The closest any character can get to him is 55:45 which is still a significant disadvantage.

55:45 a "significant disadvantage"? Everyone credible disagrees. In fact, 55:45 is widely considered neutral.

Every other character in the game has multiple matchups that put them at a disadvantage which doesn't allow any one of those characters to completely dominate.

Marth has two 55:45s, the rest are 50/50 or better. Have you read anything in this thread or did you just walk in here thinking your points were new and that no one had ever stated them before (in this thread)?

After a ban there will still be a top tier (probably Snake, DDD, or Falco) but all of those characters have weaknesses.

But Marth doesn't.

Banning MK will lead to more diversity at tournaments and all the MK players, especially the top level ones, switching to other characters will surely help to advance the Metagame of the rest of the cast.

Banning the entireity of Top Tier and High Tier would maximize diversity. Ban them nao?

The question is not if banning him will promote more diversity. The question is whether or not he's limiting diversity in such a significant way he needs to be banned because he's too good and not just because he's popular.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

MK getting top 3 at hobo, where there were so many good players is a great boost for the pro ban crowd. I mean Azen used him twice in a row, seriously, this is not OK because these great players are going to make people think "Oh, these amazing people have to use MK to win, so I do too. That is what this boils down to.

rofl

10rofls

yuna's contradicting himself in the same posts now... i wonder if he really thinks when he says stuff or if he just looks for any point to argue

 

[IShotLazer]

Shadowlink, I disagree with you a good bit.
The Falco, Fox matchup is a 60:40 in Melee, which by your standards isn't that large of a margin...
However, when you play the matchup you can FEEL the advantage that Falco has over Fox, and unless your opponent is doing something horribly wrong you understand why the matchup is in Falco's favor. Fox can still punish Falco and pull out a win, but it meant that the other person was either messing up or that the Fox player was a good margin BETTER than the Falco player. At high level play, which IS what we are talking about after all as stated in the FIRST post, ANY sort of advantage over someone else practically means you just won. Being a good margin better than your opponent in high level play just doesn't happen, which is why people consider characters counters even if it's a slight advantage.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

rofl

Think about it, it's true...

 

[ArcPoint]

Yuna, you pull out the popular card a lot, we're not considering banning him due to the fact that he's JUST popular, we're considering banning for the same reasons he's popular, because he's leagues ahead of the other characters >_> That'd be stupid to ban a character ONLY because he's popular, if everybody mained Captain Falcon tomorrow, then we wouldn't be considering him for a ban because he's miles below mid/high tier.

 

[Yuna]

Metaknight is a no risk, high reward character. If he continues to lack neutral matchups he should then see a ban.

Marth on the other hand has some risk at higher levels of play where the skill level is the same.

What do you classify as a "risk", anyway? A weakness? Because Marth suffers zero bad matchups. There's no risk involved. At the worst, he has 45:55s, which are neutral and a toss-up. That's no "risk", that's a neutral where there is no inherent advantage for either party.

Hence it would be wiser for the marth main to pick a secondary that is a hard counter for his opponent in order to increase the chance of winning.

Yes, but you see, then we'd be stuck with Marth + one of a few viable characters. It won't be much use. Marth is a good counterpick because he has no counters. In Advanced Slob Picks, if you counter someone with a character, they can counter you back with a character that counters you, possibly "forcing" you to go Marth for a neutral matchup.

Throughout the past couple months nothing major has progressed the Metagame to anything spectacular except the apparent dominance of Metaknight. He just keeps getting better. Do you want to waste a possible couple years on just using Metaknight?

Remember a few mere months ago when Meta Knight didn't dominate as badly as Snake and when people were chanting to have Snake banned? Well, that changed, now didn't it?

"Things probably won't change" is not a valid argument.

MK getting top 3 at hobo, where there were so many good players is a great boost for the pro ban crowd. I mean Azen used him twice in a row, seriously, this is not OK because these great players are going to make people think "Oh, these amazing people have to use MK to win, so I do too. That is what this boils down to.

Did he get all 3 Top 3 spots for being broken or just because the very players present played him? Did he win by a great margin or did the Metas just barely make Top 3? What difference does it make if Azen elects to use Meta or not?

And nobody cares if newbies elect to use Meta Knight because they feel like playing the best character. What matters if he's "too good"!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

He wouldn't be popular if he wasn't good, Yuna. How can you say it doesn't matter if he's too good? THAT'S WHY WE'RE DISCUSSING THIS!

 

[Snail]

Ignore this D:

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, you pull out the popular card a lot, we're not considering banning him due to the fact that he's JUST popular, we're considering banning for the same reasons he's popular, because he's leagues ahead of the other characters >_>

We shouldn't be considering banning him because of popularity at all. What you should be concentrating on is proving why Meta Knight is "too good", not that he's popular.

It's inconsequential. After all, unless you can prove that he's "too good", all you have is "he's too popular". I'm not saying you cannot prove he's "too good". I'm saying it's inconsequential that you can prove he's too popular. Everything playing Zelda for 4 months wouldn't magically make her bannable.

If there are so many reasons for banning Meta, how come every other post on banning Meta has "He's popular" in it? If the reasons are so numerous, such an inconsequential argument shouldn't need to be repeated 29.000 times.

And that's not to mention how many people use the fact that he's popular to prove he's broken.
Me: How is Meta popular?
People: Umm... he took Top 3 av Hobo11 and there were many MKs there.
Me: This doesn't necessarily prove he's broken. This proves he's popular.
People: He took Top 3 at Hobo11!
Me: ...

He wouldn't be popular if he wasn't good, Yuna. How can you say it doesn't matter if he's too good? THAT'S WHY WE'RE DISCUSSING THIS!

The burden of evidence is on you. Innocent 'til proven guilty.

You cannot prove Meta Knight is "too good" by saying "He's popular, ergo he must be 'too good'!". That's inane logic! What if he just happens to be popular? Or what if the people who play him are wrong? What if he isn't actually "too good", we just don't know how to beat him yet?

I'm saying "what if", I'm not saying "This is how it is".

The point is that you cannot prove he's "too good" by saying "he's popular"!

 

[TeeVee]

.. .

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No Yuna, I'm saying he is too good which makes him popular. If MK sucked, he would not be popular.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yuna, which scenario would you prefer in a fighting game:

One character, having only advantages and dominating the whole scene with the 2nd best characters miles behind or a very good character, with no big weaknesses but few outstanding advantages either, being accepted to be the best, with a few other characters not far behind? I think the answer to this is pretty obvious.

 

[Yuna]

LOL at yuna's argument. There's a reason why the top players are using Meta Knight. Top 3 at a major tournament all using meta knight is a big deal. Azen NEEDING to pull out MK to win is a big deal.


It's not like the top players just so happen to use meta knight for no reason

You cannot prove he's good by saying "He's popular. Why is he popular? Why, it must be because he's 'too good'!". Stop using this inane argument!

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

A miscommunication is something we did wrong. It was misinterpretation from your side. Because you know, it's not always someone else's fault when something goes wrong and you're in the thick of it.

Did you, you know, read Ankoku's post? Because if you did, is English your 12th language?

...
...
Meta Knight helps eliminate several characters who could counter or give several Top and High Tiers a run for their money from Competitive play (more than without him). With Meta gone, more characters will be played, thus, for example, Snake will have to face many more hard match-ups in tournaments.

Snake (and others) will drop down in rank while Marth's will rise since his match-up will improve whilst everyone else's drops (due to a redistribution of the characters played). I've said this at least 5 times by now.

and we get it. you're not convincing anybody that marth will become as dominant as mk is, which is the problem.

that said, if marth is sooooo similar to metaknight, and is bound to become juuuuust as effective and popular as metaknight, what's stopping him from clearing out the other top tier's bad matchups for them, just as you're claiming mk is doing?

People whine about everything. Have you heard the whinage over Items Off and the C-stick? If we were to listen to the most ardent whiners and set the rules according to what people whine the most over, we'd all be stuck playing on banned stages with the C-stick being banned and all items being on.

Not playing the game like that is obviously poisoning the metagame past the point of no return because people are leaving/electing not to become a part of the Smash community. Also, how is Meta Knight "poisoning the metagame past the point of no return", really? He's poisoning the community, or rather, players are destroying the community due to Meta Knight's dominance.

it's not about the amount of whining, and characterizing it as whining shows that you really don't even understand the problem.

And the question is: When should he be banned? Right now? If so, why? If later, why? Insofar you've been content on Sarah Palining your way through debate, not really providing much actual debate but stating generalities and opinions without elaborating or backing them up (much).

Should Meta Knight be banned right now? For what exact reasons? Simply for "poisoning the 'metagame'"? For being too good? Combination? Popularity? If not right now, when? And why then?

please, continue to ignore what everyone else is telling you and just keep hurling veiled insults with the same low quality logic.

please.

really.

I'm sorry, what part of "He's just better" was too hard for you to understand?

what part of "that's exactly why he won't be as much of a problem as mk is now" is too hard for you to understand?

Marth has a disadvantage... against Meta Knight. Pretty much everyone does, with the exception of Snake (some possible 55-45s). And what parts of "There are very few really good Marths around" is too hard for you to grasp?

do you have any proof that there are really that few good marths? or are you just throwing another random statement out there and hoping everyone goes along with it?

(a) marth is one of the top performers in the top8 category of ankoku's list, so there's not a lack of marths, and to assume that the marth community as a whole simply doesn't have the skill to push their character into the top more often is ludicrous.

(b) azen and lucario. even if there were truly a lack of quality players, that wouldn't be relevent in the slightest.

Snake isn't really all that good if Meta Knight gets taken out. Keep up with the debate, please.

and how do you figure? how come metaknight is "clearing the field" for snake, but marth would just waltz into the top spot while all the other high tiers got taken down by their counter characters?

also:

And that's not to mention how many people use the fact that he's popular to prove he's broken.
Me: How is Meta popular?
People: Umm... he took Top 3 av Hobo11 and there were many MKs there.
Me: This doesn't necessarily prove he's broken. This proves he's popular.
People: He took Top 3 at Hobo11!
Me: ...

stupid argument. first of all, just because you don't personally like the reason, overwhelming popularity is a reason. no matter how dumb you think it is, it's part of what's helping to kill brawl's competitive scene. quit crying about it. and no, zelda is not going to suddenly become ridiculously popular and start running over everybody. quit bringing up crappy unrelated hypotheticals.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yuna how can you argue that he isn't good? You have to agree that he would not be so popular if he sucked.

 

[pridy]

it's hilarious how ppl come here and say 6-4 means that the MK has the advantage but the other character still has a chance to beat him
SO ur basically saying that a Cpt falcon can come here and beat a R.O.B. since "technically" it is a 6-4 match-up please use this link to IvanEva's match-up chart as proof of what i am saying
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No Yuna is right. The populariy argument is flawed like...I don't know what

 

[MorphedChaos]

Yuna loves to contradict himself quite often it seems.

I'd still like to address what it would take to make MK not so broken, like what AT would need to be discovered.

 

[TeeVee]

By Yuna's logic, we will never realize if he's too broken...

 

[IShotLazer]

"The rules are written to prevent minimization of competition."
You probably could have just this solely and practically saved yourself a lot of posting time Yuna XD.
Either way you are right.
Things not changing isn't a valid argument, or at least a strong one. Then again the longer the time span the stronger the point becomes. Throughout Brawl's time Metaknight has always been the best character, perhaps we are just going through a dryspell atm where Metaknight is the dominating character. Either way you look at it, it's clear the Metaknight is the best character it just depends on how dominating he is.

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

Yuna, when we say that Meta Knight has low risk, high reward, we aren't just talking about his MATCHUPS. MK can do virtually anything at low risk (besides his FSmash) and still get kicks out of it.
Marth on the other hand, cannot just throw out aerials, grabs or smashes the way MK can.

The point remains that Marth ACTUALLY HAS disadvantageous matchups (and YES, for the third time, I'll NAME one: Snake), which means there are viable soft counters. Also, there are certain stages (Final Destination) that can be be counterpicked to Marth's detriment.
The same does not hold true for Meta Knight.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, which scenario would you prefer in a fighting game:

One character, having only advantages and dominating the whole scene with the 2nd best characters miles behind or a very good character, with no big weaknesses but few outstanding advantages either, being accepted to be the best, with a few other characters not far behind? I think the answer to this is pretty obvious.

I'd prefer we all go back to Melee.

I'm not arguing Meta Knight should never be banned. I'm arguing that it's too early to ban him at this writing moment and that from what we know insofar, he's not even good enough to ban (yet). It's close, but no cigar.

Furthermore, I'm also arguing that if we ban Meta Knight, Marth will eventually fulfill all the necessary requirements for a ban and that we'll have to ban him next. It's the logical consequence. So what I am arguing is actually a metagame devoid of both (since people insist of banning Meta Knight).

No Yuna, I'm saying he is too good which makes him popular. If MK sucked, he would not be popular.

"He's popular" does not prove "he's 'too good'". It is not conclusive proof of anything. I'm saying:
Prove he's too good using other arguments.

He's apparently so obviously much better than everyone else. Prove it instead of clinging to "He's popular" as your only argument. Others have managed to keep up just fine with valid arguments.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

it's hilarious how ppl come here and say 6-4 means that the MK has the advantage but the other character still has a chance to beat him
SO ur basically saying that a Cpt falcon can come here and beat a R.O.B. since "technically" it is a 6-4 match-up please use this link to IvanEva's match-up chart as proof of what i am saying
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

6-4 means it is close. And you cannot use that Matchup thread, it is unreliable.


Ok Yuna here is my "valid" argument about why MK is good.

-He has no bad mathups
-Having no bad matchups lead people to use him against himself in dittoes, so he becomes more popular
-He doesn't really have any stage counterpicks besides Diddy in FD.
-He has many **** matchups and great players are now needing to use him if they want to win

Spoiler

You probably aren't going to listen to me though because you want to keep arguing though.

 

[pridy]

it's Hilarious How Ppl Come Here And Say 6-4 Means That The Mk Has The Advantage But The Other Character Still Has A Chance To Beat Him
So Ur Basically Saying That A Cpt Falcon Can Come Here And Beat A R.o.b. Since "technically" It Is A 6-4 Match-up Please Use This Link To Ivaneva's Match-up Chart As Proof Of What I Am Saying
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Qft
/10 Qfts

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

At work at the moment, so I'm going to attempt to squeeze everything I can into this post in the shortest amount of time. I want to make sure everyone realizes that I'm not going to be talking about your average day Meta knight that wins at the local game tournament. Most of you have never played a good Meta knight, much less a great one. I'm talking about the top elite Meta Knight play, which is beginning to spread and disperse down the chain. Want an example? Watch Dojo.

At the highest level of play, assuming the right choice is picked at all times for a character, Meta Knight is going to win. Why? With his approaches he can auto-cancel into near lagless Smashes. You cannot Shield Grab a smart Meta Knight. The seemingly normal reactions to counter attacks do not work against Meta knight. Power Shielding? Ha, by the time you get your input frame Meta Knight already has a second attack buffered.

Meta Knight is a character of reflexes. As long as the player is pushing him to this extent [which is what we are now seeing in tournaments] the only answer to him becomes another character of reflex because conventional means of dealing with the character do not work. Punishing a great Meta knight is a delusion that is left for sweet dreams at night. The intuitive reactions that are trained to work against everyone else in the game do not, and will not work on a Professional level Meta knight. Gone are the days when Meta Knights didn't realize how to auto-cancel their aerials directly into a Smash, D-Tilt, or even a grab. The issue is the vast number of inputs of high priority that Meta Knight is able to do during the course of a match/exchange. No other character comes close, not even honorable mention. The window of opportunity to even -stop- one of Meta knights approaches is slim, at best since most moves that can even -tie- against him, have considerable lag. The pressure that Meta Knights are applying to their opponents is unparalleled, and the entire cast is left with no means to cope.

Playing against Meta knight is an exercise in futility. The best have learned an offstage game that destroys everything. Due to Meta knights lack of cool down, they are able to punish any recovery and juggle off the stage ruthlessly with little to no risk. There is no character that can match this, retaliate to this, or survive this.

Meta Knight is going to see a ban, if not the scene is going to become a matter of who can stomach to play
Meta Knight dittos every match. Attendance will suffer for tournaments, and in the end, we'll move on to other games. The goal of this community is to foster the development of a competitive scene for Brawl. The only answer to this situation is clear.

PS: Most match up threads are out of date now vs Meta Knight. I wouldn't quote them or even mention them.

Quoted for Truth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd prefer we all go back to Melee.

agreed

\topic

I'm not arguing Meta Knight should never be banned. I'm arguing that it's too early to ban him at this writing moment and that from what we know insofar, he's not even good enough to ban (yet). It's close, but no cigar.

So, how long do you think we have to wait until we know for sure?

Furthermore, I'm also arguing that if we ban Meta Knight, Marth will eventually fulfill all the necessary requirements for a ban and that we'll have to ban him next. It's the logical consequence. So what I am arguing is actually a metagame devoid of both (since people insist of banning Meta Knight

Semi-agreed. It depends on your definition of "ban worthy".

 

[Jigglymaster]

In yesterdays tournament Ninja Link lost to Inui's 2 week old MK.

Defiantly nothing wrong with that amiright?

http://www.allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=2849

This was in person

 

[IShotLazer]

Also popularity does have something to do with a ban, although it sounds stupid. Knowledge of the best character is what is making the character popular but lets say that most people didn't KNOW what the best character was.
Lets hypothetically think of a situation in which 1/39 people used Metaknight and that no one KNOWS that he is a powerful character.
This person happens to win tournaments, however he doesn't win all of them quite frankly because well, he is one person there are too many. This doesn't draw too much attention in the character and rather the player behind the character, you know what should ideally be happening. That still leaves the tournament scene open for other characters because it isn't expected that the next person you're going to be playing happens to be using Metaknight. Even IF it's only a couple people using Metaknight, it still allows for opportunities for other characters to flourish because he isn't being played by every player in the tournament.

 

[Manic_1]

Answer this question. Is MK hurting the competitive brawl scene? I think so, and other people are agreeing with me because people are quiting over it.

 

[XienZo]

I personally don't think Marth will immediatly become over-popular like MK.

Wha Yuna says is true about people who wan't every single bit of advantageous matchuo SHOULD pick Marth to win. After all, we are a "play to win" community. However, the thing is, there is also human nature. For many of the people in the Competitive smash community, they first played the Smash series casually or competitively because they saw a character that they liked from another game in there. Eventually, they became competitive, and we have this community. Now, we all "play-to-win", but many people "play-to-win" as their favorite character.

Basically, players don't always go to the top-tier character to win. As long as they can win with their favorite character, they will not abandon them.

Here is a possible formula:

Want to play as a Character C= (Fun in playing as C)(chances of winning as C)

People will only want to switch to a top-tier character if the chances of winning is enough to overcome their like of their previous main. Why people may be switching to MK now is that lets say,

Fun in playing as MK=1
Fun in playing as Previous main=6

chances of winning as MK=50%
chances of winning as Previous Main=5%

the formula gives .5 vs .3, and the player switches to MK.

obviously, these numbers are made up and can't even really be measured in real life, but its demonstrating the concept.

However, if MK is banned, people will only flock to Marth if his rate of winning is ALSO significantly higher than that of their main. Marth offers only a minimal chance of winning over the others, so most people will choose who they like the best.

However, this is all pertaining to the general real-life community as a whole. None of this would apply in Yuna's everyone-is-playing-to-win-with-anything world, and it may not neccesarily be true of high level players(although some like Azen still stick with high tier).

Still, we are making this decision for the real community as a whole, aren't we?

 

[IShotLazer]

XienZo, that describes incoming players but not veterans.
Veterans at a game pick the character they honestly think they are the best at, not because they like the character. Some characters by some players can be player better, Cort in Melee plays Peach because he is the best with peach. I'm sure he is aware that Sheik and Fox are probably better, however at the moment and his style of play, his peach is indeed his best character, not necessarily his favorite.

Wish I could agree with you T_T