The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[~ Gheb ~]

Terios, who are you exactly reffering to?

 

[IShotLazer]

It doesn't matter how hard something is to do at high level play, just the fact that it can be done practically.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know that, but that is not what I said in the first place, I said he is popular because he is good, not the other way around, I think you have reading problems ShadowLink...

I'll dumb things down for you.

Yuna: MetaKnight is a good character which is why he is popular. His popularity does not mean he is good.
You: Metaknight is good because of his popularity. Due to the popularity, it causes things to be less viable and therefore he is banworthy.

Something along those lines.

I shall break it down further for you.
Popularity means nothing.
During melee Link experienced a massive amount of new users. They went to tournaments and everything.
What happened?
Link did see a boost in tournament performance but he qwas still doing poorly in comparison to other characters above him.

tl;dr: popularity is not a factor concerning how good the character is; or if they need to be banned. If anyone has misunderstood what you ahve said, it is an error on YOUR part not their own.




So again you have a reading comprehension issue.
or you're just an idiot.

Moving on...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Terios, who are you exactly reffering to?

Pretty much everyone. Over the past couple of pages I've seen "Metaknight is easy to pick up ZOMG" over and over and over again. I'm sick of it. Bring something new to the table or GTFO.




\/ My point exactly.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Marth is harder to learn than MK. Mk can space much easier as he is faster + has better priority. Marth is fast too but not as fast as MK and still loses in priority. MK can be played just as Marth but MK lives longer (similar weight but MK has a way better recovery) and has overall better properties (small size =epic shield, better special moves, less lag, better edgeguard).

MK can do exactly the same things Marth can but easier, since he's much harder to punish.

@list

What? Seth got only 33?

I agree that Metaknight IS a better character. But this is about the learning curve. Do you think learning all of MK's tricks is easier than learning all of Marths?

What difficult-to-learn aspects does Marth have? (in your opinion)

 

[Yuna]

yuna, just tellme this...

would MK be this popular if he sucked?

Who knows?

Nevertheless, the fact that he's popular is not proof of that he's "too good" and has to be banned.

and how does beating NL not count for this arguement, about a month ago, the dude was stomping MKs like it was his job, he even beat M2K. and no matter what you say, beating M2K in a tourney set, is never a freak accident. now, ppl learn the diddy match up, and NL gets beat by Inui, a guy who you admit "isnt THAT good" that has to mean something

I'm sorry, I said beating NL doesn't count when? I specifically asked for more information about the Inui vs. NinjaLink set. Saying "Inui beat NinjaLink" doesn't really tell us much.

After MK is banned, I agree it will probably collapse down to like 3 characters dominating. But that's a lot better than just 1 character dominating. An all-Marth metagame is not stable. If the entire metagame is Marth, people are better off picking Snake than Marth. After enough switch to Snake, people will be better off picking DDD or ROB over Marth or Snake. After enough people switch off of Marth, lower tier characters will be more viable because they can face characters they counter. Now we have an interesting metagame! There will be a few (3-4) characters that will consistently place higher than the others, but the metagame will be far more diverse.

Or what I said:
Two characters. Either two mains or a main and secondary. It'll revolve around the Top 4, still.

Not so with Metaknight. In any metagame with MK unbanned, MK is the strictly dominant choice.

But 55:45 and 5-4 are still worse than 50:50.

45:45 is barely worse. It's neglible. And it counts as neutral.

If Marth comes to dominate, then we may have to consider it. But I highly doubt it would get to that point. That's what we're trying to determine here, right?

No, what we're establishing is not if it'll happen, that would be speculation. What we're establishing is that if it happened, will we ban him?

With MK gone, Marth wins big time.

Stuff.

I specifically said that while there are a large number of Marth players out there, very few are actually good. And I never said it's easy to play Marth on a technical level.

I said that Marth enjoys good odds at victory. And if we're using the logic that people will flock to the ones with the highest chance of victory, then Marth will be an ideal candidate if MK gets banned.

I don't mean to rag on M2K but he always says whatever character isn't so good...
He mains Marth yet says Sheik is WAY better. He says the matchup is 65 35 Sheiks favor, but have you seen what he does against every sheik he has ever played against? Sheik is a play thing for his amusement.
65:35 my ***
He is doing the same for Metaknight.

If we're talking Melee, yes, Sheik has the advantage in that matchup... especially in NTSC.

No, M2K beating many Sheik does not mean anything. He's just good against Sheik. Player skill > Matchups > Tiers.

It's not a 65:35, though. Those are just Johns.

third time i've posted this. response, yuna?

everybody just ignore yuna's bs about marth, we all know marth isn't even close to being as dangerous as mk is. don't validate him by arguing his stupid logic.

I've never ever said that Marth is even close to being as dangerous MK is. Please consult your English dictionary.

I apologize if you posted that before and I didn't see it somehow.

and we get it. you're not convincing anybody that marth will become as dominant as mk is, which is the problem.

I didn't even say "This is how it will be". I'm saying with the logic "If everyone flocks to X..." and "Popularity", Marth is next if it so happens.

that said, if marth is sooooo similar to metaknight, and is bound to become juuuuust as effective and popular as metaknight, what's stopping him from clearing out the other top tier's bad matchups for them, just as you're claiming mk is doing?

Marth is quite different from Meta Knight. Marth has even matchups against most of the counters to the other Tops and Highs, unlike Meta Knight.

it's not about the amount of whining, and characterizing it as whining shows that you really don't even understand the problem.

The argument was that if enough people complain and leave the community because of something, then it should be banned, regardless if it's "Too good" and forces you to play certain characters to stand a reasonable chance of winning or.

The argument was that mere popularity and enough people quitting is enough.

please, continue to ignore what everyone else is telling you and just keep hurling veiled insults with the same low quality logic.

I asked for an elaboration of someone's opinion. It was not aware of that classifies as a veiled insult. Please consult your dictionary yet again.

what part of "that's exactly why he won't be as much of a problem as mk is now" is too hard for you to understand?

What part "He won't be as much of a problem as Meta Knight, just a pretty big problem" was too hard for you to understand?

do you have any proof that there are really that few good marths? or are you just throwing another random statement out there and hoping everyone goes along with it?

Ask the Marth forums? Hang around there a bit? Do you have any proof of that there are a jillion highly skilled Marth players running around playing him to his full potential yet consistently failing to place high?

(a) marth is one of the top performers in the top8 category of ankoku's list, so there's not a lack of marths, and to assume that the marth community as a whole simply doesn't have the skill to push their character into the top more often is ludicrous.

The huge amount of Meta Knights present at tournaments make swift work of Marth. Because it's a disadvantageous match-up.

(b) azen and lucario. even if there were truly a lack of quality players, that wouldn't be relevent in the slightest.

What's this got to do with anything?

and how do you figure? how come metaknight is "clearing the field" for snake, but marth would just waltz into the top spot while all the other high tiers got taken down by their counter characters?

Because Snake's counters enjoys better matchups against Marth.

He does? Who are they?

Snake? (45:55 in Meta's favour, that is) Opinions vary but D3 and Diddy are considered go to almost even against him.

That's most people's opinions in this thread. Those suggesting the time table wanted a decision to be made in march 2009 (a year from the american release)

I can go along with that. I have always maintained that I'm against banning him at this very moment knowing only what we know insofar. I have never said that Meat Knight should never be banned.

Ninjalink played as Diddy, who we had been thinking could possibly have an even matchup against Metaknight. Ninjalink happens to be one of the best Diddy players in the country, while Inui is still new with Metaknight.

Was Ninjalink having a good day? Did he play below his potential due to whatever? Did he screw up more than he usually does for whatever reason (like fall for stuff he usually doesn't fall for)? Was it a big win or 3-2 last stock?

One single set doesn't prove Meta Knight broken beyond help.

Sonic vs Metaknight is like 8-2 in Metaknight's favor. Yes, it is that bad.

You quoted a part of my post which was not in any way directed at you or any other Sonic players. It was directed specifically at JigglyMaster.

Stuff.

My alternate suggestion was that people will flock to Snake, G&W and D3 (pick one) and then using Marth as a secondary to prevent counterpicking. In other words, what you just suggested.

So while Marth is your safest choice matchup wise, I don't think he gives you the best chance of winning.

I never said this. I said he gives you the ability to never get counterpicked.

His matches will rely almost completely on your skill, while the other characters will give you a larger edge in the first round, with little chance for it to backfire.

Advanced Slob Picks afterwards. So unless they want to face a potential counter, they'll pick Marth or someone else up to hedge their bets. Marth is a good choice since the worst he can do is 45:55.

Also Neo. Isn't Ken any good as Marth? I haven't seen anything since, lol, Evo.

Ken's Brawl Marth is not in any way as good as his Melee Marth. In other words, not top level. People blame Survivor Gabon.

Actually to me that looks like Marth ***** sheik...
In fact if that was the american version that wouldnt have happened in the first place because the D-air is a meteor smash in the PAL version and sheik canceled it. It would have been a four stock... that is a bad match to bring up.

Marth does not **** Sheik. Not even in PAL. In fact, he's still got the disadvantage.

M2k wants to win, his best character is M2k. His word means a lot. Why not keep winning when all you have to do to stimulate people to not ban Metaknight is say "I'm the best, and trust me Metaknight isn't that great". Nothing changes and he keeps his position. Nothing against the guy, I understand where he is coming from.

M2K is just known for saying random stuff and understating the strengths of his mains.

Your question to Yuna does not work, I already tried it he won't listen.

Because it's not proof.

And to put an end to this Marth crap, Marth has 2 45-55 matches against D3 and Snake, and one outright disadvantage against MK, but marth will not be banned becasue he has no **** matchupss against chracters that you will consistently see in tournaments. Most of his matchups vs. tourney viable characters are 60-40 or 65-35.

Name these numerous match-ups against characters you will consistently see in tournaments who Meta Knight supposedly *****.

ken is in africa as a member of the new season of survivor.

Filming ended a long time ago. Ken is back in the United States again. Survivor is not live... except for the finale, which doesn't take place in Africa but in a studio in the US.

Ahh but Gheb, he thought I was saying that the reason I think MK is too good is because he is popular, although I clearly stated that he is popular because he is too good.

No I didn't. I said that you cannot prove that's he "too good" simply by pointing out that he's popular. I thought I'd driven this home the 29 time first times I said it. After all, it's all plain English.

And successor, a bad player who picks up MK can be good, which is another ban reason, he istoo easy to pick up, whereas a bad player who picks up Marth will suck unless he practices a lot.

No, being easy to pick up is not bannable. It's another factor which makes it easier for people to flock to Meta Knight.

Only bad players lose to bad MKs (or good players having a bad day... or those with really bad matchups against him).

I think you guys are throwing out insults to eachother and not debating at this point. Move on.
You people have been repeating yourselves. This isn't something for someone to express their point and not keep going.

I suggest you go back to page, oh, 20. This thread has been in perpetual repetition since forever.

Terios, who are you exactly reffering to?

Everyone, pretty much. Like the many people staring themselves blind at the HOBO11 results. Oh noes, many Metas in the top, which must automatically mean he's broken!

And the jillion people saying that Meta Knight is easy to pick up and win at lower levels of play with.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pretty much everyone. Over the past couple of pages I've seen "Metaknight is easy to pick up ZOMG" over and over and over again. I'm sick of it. Bring something new to the table or GTFO.

um err... uh...
**** no one is around?

K I'll play Devil's advocate. Ik'll fail but it will be fun.


The reason Metaknight is worthy of being banned is because he reduces the viability of other characters severely.

You have only So if a tournament of 128 people is held, the majority of players will use MK.

This is mainly cause of two issues.

1.metaknight has the best overall matchup of the entire cast. So picking MK assures you will never be at a inherent disadvantage to the opponent.
2.This also forces the opponent to choose among a set number of characters. So if Dk is the only neutral matchup (besides MK of course) then I know he will either be Mk or Dk, by which I will have strategies for both.

So because of these two things, it makes sense that Metaknight will slowly begin to dominate the tournaments.
your opponent is basically forced to choose Mk in order to counter him, cause centralizing over MK.
Even though Mk is by no means broken within himself, nor does he outright destroy many characters, he does reduce viability to the point where it is, play MK or risk losing.

While it can be said Brawl is too young, to judge for sure, the behavior of the tournaments assures that Mk's behavior will be maintained. Even if it slows down , uiit will not slowdown to the point where he no longer dominates.

Spoiler

BLARGHARGH!

 

[Gea]

What? Seth got only 33?

He got a terrible seed. Too many really good players and he fought like three in a row right out of pools.

 

[Mortimer]

With MK gone, Marth wins big time.

What are you basing your ideas about Marth on? The Character Board Specific Matchup Chart?

I'm crunching a few numbers, and I think that's the most accurate chart, but it's too incomplete to be usable at this point.

 

[Banee]

Nevertheless, the fact that he's popular is not proof of that he's "too good" and has to be banned.

Well it CAN be supplemental evidence pointing to him being too good if someone can establish a connection between a character being too good and extreme popularity of said character (particularly in respect to high placing tournament results).

I dont have the energy to argue for or against it, i'm just throwing it out there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree that Metaknight IS a better character. But this is about the learning curve. Do you think learning all of MK's tricks is easier than learning all of Marths?

What difficult-to-learn aspects does Marth have? (in your opinion)

For the first question: It doesn't matter in high level play, because Marth and MK are based on a similar gameplay - speed and agressive spacing / zoning. But it's easier to learn it with MK, since you can press any button and you'll lmost always beat the opponents move. Marth can't do that - he is more prone to mistakes and he is harder punished. This matters a lot, when learning a character. Make a mistake with MK and you still have your insane Recovery or a move with xtreme priority to beat the opponent. If Marth makes a mistake he can be royally screwed, if he's knocked of the Edge. So MK is de facto easier to learn, as a newbie won't be punished as much with MK as with Marth, which is the key aspect in learning a character

For the second question: You should ask that on the Marth boards. I only second Marth, so I might forget something. What's hard to learn about Marth is to constantly outspace your opponent as fast as possible. That's not easy to learn...at least not as easy as MK.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about Marth or MK being easy to learn. In fact I play GnW, who is the easiert to learn

 

[Lethe]

mk on with handicap at like 20% lol.

just a thought.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

mk on with handicap at like 20% lol.

just a thought.

It's been discussed. Multiple times.... no.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yuna is a Broomer, he knows about Marth, lol.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yuna is a Broomer, he knows about Marth, lol.

Actually it's KRoomer now. Check it out.

 

[Lethe]

sorry, i searched the thread for handicap and didn't get any relevant posts

where can i read the previous discussions on this? its an interesting subject

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

LolWut Terios? No it Ain't!

 

[slikvik]

i don't know why people are arguing with someone who thinks marth will dominate tourneys if metaknight is banned

<<<does not care if metaknight is banned or not

 

[~ Gheb ~]

SOLID, you're confusing the BR and the SBR. The SBR is still the same

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

It wasn't in this thread per se. (It might have been I just started reading last night) but there are a few topics on it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195339&highlight=handicap

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178689&highlight=handicap


I don't feel like looking for more. But the "The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be Banned?" Thread v1" probably has it mentioned. It showed up when I searched Handicap.

LolWut Terios? No it Ain't!

I don't think Yuna's a member of the SBR.

B(K)Roomers are green. SBRoomers are purple. Induction into the SBR TYPICALLY means you''re allowed in the B(K)Room too.

But that's all really off-topic.

 

[Daimonster]

92 pages and what have we progressed to?

I would rather play a metagame in which the best character goes 50:50 with alot of characters than mk dittos for the entirety of brawl.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

92 pages and what have we progressed to?

I would rather play a metagame in which the best character goes 50:50 with alot of characters than mk dittos for the entirety of brawl.

I'm pretty sure I read that MK, Yoshi, Diddy, Fox and GaW all go roughly even with MK. There are characters that can match him.

Edit:Snake too. MK has a slight advantage.

 

[noodles]

alot of posts

 

[TeeVee]

Fox? GaW? Diddy? Yoshi?

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm pretty sure I read that MK, Yoshi, Diddy, Fox and GaW all go roughly even with MK. There are characters that can match him.

Edit:Snake too. MK has a slight advantage.

Diddy Kong does bad against MK on every stage except for FD, which MK still has the advantage. Same goes for Yoshi and he only relyies on his chain grab that only works on nooby MK's.

 

[noodles]

lucario vs mk isnt bad either

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well I've only read that stuff. It's not something I'm experienced on. Hence the "I'm pretty sure I read"

 

[Kingdrom]

Playing this out in theory isn't going to do anything. We've been doing this poorly for enough pages to fill a book. Just remember that there will be close-minded people anywhere who eliminate any progress with ignorant comments. Arguing will do just about as much as it did for the Brawl vs. Melee crowd. Whether tournaments are won with Meta Knight because there are lots of Meta Knight players that are potentially good needs more time to be determined. The other characters need to reach their peak ability to make a decision. If we find ourselves too impatient to wait, we could adopt the following solution:

What needs to get done is a round-robin tourney featuring two or three best players of each character, playing only their main. This might take a couple months, but it would put this question to rest for the next seven years. If MK's wins when compared to losses exceeds a limit predetermined by some mathematical formula, then it should be automatically banned, without further regard to player's thoughts. A good formula for this would be the 2nd standard deviation for the entire pool of characters' wins and losses.

If it does not exceed this total, then conduct a vote among the tournament players as to whether MK should be banned or not. The difference between MK's win/loss record and the 2nd standard deviation would be directly related to what % of the vote would be considered the majority needed to ban MK. Thus, as the difference between the second deviation and MK's win/loss record grows, the majority needed for a ban approaches 100%.


My personal opinion doesn't matter, but I think that MK is worthy of a ban not just because of his game-breaking several jumps and glides, as well as three B recovery moves. He is rather fast and nearly all his moves come out as fast as Marth's Counter. While none of these are broken alone, the combination of these put it at a distinct advantage over every character in some way, leading to many good matchups and the rest neutral.



I don't mean to force anything onto the community in any way, I'm just providing a potential solution. Because saying things over and over doesn't prove a point more than saying it once.

 

[TeeVee]

lol where did you get fox from?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK anihilates Fox...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

lol where did you get fox from?

I'm.....not sure. Matchup thread maybe? I might just be remembering wrong.

I'm assuming cause Dair to Usmash can kill relatively early?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No. Fox won't even land a dair on MK

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Can't Dair from the top break tornado? It does with Sonic.

But whatever. If I'm wrong just drop it. No point in carrying on with wrong info.

 

[Mmac]

Same goes for Yoshi and he only relyies on his chain grab that only works on nooby MK's.

You don't really know the matchup at all....

 

[Lethe]

hm, after reading some of the responses in those threads i have to agree. i would hate to see handicaps applied to any of the other chars/matchups in brawl. so it is ban or nothing. and in that case, im going to vote nothing, at least for now. seeing all meta tourneys would be pretty lame though, i must say.

edit: basically, if it aint broke, dont fix it, and i dont think its broke yet, just bent... the tourney scene, that is.

 

[AlAxe]

Well I've only read that stuff. It's not something I'm experienced on. Hence the "I'm pretty sure I read"

What you've read are outdated matchup guides. On of the first characters to be featured on most characters matchup threads was MK. Back then MK players hadn't learned to play the way they do now. The current train of thought, which is backed by tournament results, is that MK has a clear advantage over every other character in the game. Only a few characters, namely Snake, can be said to even have close to a nuetral matchup. At best 55:45 in one match. Over a 3 match set those odds become about 1.8:1 in MKs favor. Over a 5 match final those odds become about 2.7:1 in MKs favor. Many though would consider MK to have no matchups worse than 60:40.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Yuna. Well I agree. I just think your second scenerio is more likely than your first, and that said scenerio is better than our current situation.

My mistake on responding to the wrong quote.

And also, Ninjalink may have been having a bad day. Inui may have been having a good day. I'm just saying that matchup experience probably didn't have anything to do with it, given that it is the best Diddy player.

 

[IxxI]

At least his final smash isn't that great.
=D

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Who cares?

 

[Hype]

At least his final smash isn't that great.
=D

I hope your joking.