The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[adumbrodeus]

I should have elaborated. yes his match-ups against MK,Snake, and ROB are all around 40:60, but the problem is the unfortunate burden that he has disadavtages on the two most commons characters in the metagame(MK and snake), who are at every $ tourney and so its generally difficult to thrive as marth in a brawl metagame where you will eventually always see a difficult match-up for the marth mainer in every tourney. Emblem lord recognizes this and many marth's in the communty realize that when the MK, Snake or ROB comes, marth has it difficult to place high in tournies when the metagame has a outstanding profusion of players who give marth a disadvatage. yes 40:60 is not bad, no has an autowin on marth, as Neo beat Plank, one of the best MK in the US, in a recent tourney, yet his only disadvatages are on very common chracters in the metagame, which makes it difficult for marth to place into the top tier of a tier list.
Again, sorry for saying it in that manner.

In what universe is Marth 60-40 against ROB and Snake.

ROB is 50-50, Snake is 55-45.

You're working on old match-up data, the metagame evolved significantly since ROB and Snake were considered Marth counters.

ROB goes completely even with Marth, Snake has a very slight advantage.

Check the Marth board's match-up discussion, they deal with the match-up in depth. You can also check the ROB Board's match-up discussion, they say the same thing. Snake's current match-up discussion hasn't covered Marth yet, so we'll see.


The point is, it's just MK. But Marth is a character that soft counters a lot of characters, and hard counters... *hears birds chirping* yeah that's pretty much it. With an established top tier, it's much better to hard counter a lot of characters and have disadvantages, at least as far as tournament results go. DDD is a perfect example of this.

Marth is only countered by MK, and even that is just a soft counter, his tournament results issue stems from MK being on the scene and the lack of characters that he hard counters. In a Vacuum, his match-ups are the second best in the game.

 

[hizzlum]

With the dissucssion of marth match-ups aside and cleared, I thinkwe should talk about the tier list itself and editions or modifications people make, does anyone have anything to say about my changes
*number is spot on my list
Top(Always going to be at every money tourney and is almost guaranteed to place high)
1)MK(Banned already in Italy, being tested to see if he should be banned in US, im neutral on this topic, but I agree with the fact MK has the #1 spot in the brawl metagame now)

2)Snake(Also being tested if he should be banned with MK, was thriving before the summer, until MK passed him, yet still unquestionably on of the elite in competitive play)

High(I find that MK and snake are placing much higher than the one's listed below and their match-ups agree, there in too little separation in the top tier of the SBR lists as snake and MK dominate tourneys, and this group in noticeably slightly worse)
3)DDD(As time goes by, falco seems to be taking his place, yet still his CG is almost autowins, exceot for the immunities that Falco,MK,G&W have on him as they also are in almost every tourney)

3)Falco(I believed as SK92 is dominating tourneys and so have other flaco's that DDD and falco are very close in potencial and share this spot on the tier list, maybe with G&W)

3)G&W(didnt place in axis and hasn't been winning as much as he did in the ealry metagame yet still seems he will be a top tier character in the future)

6) Wario(doing better in tournies as we speak and shows in at big tournies, could easily rise with falco,G&W and DDD, yet right now its too close to call)

7)Marth(In my opinion marth is fighting rob for this spot as marth's consistency at touneys is proving to keep him at this level in the metagame, his match-ups are good, yet unfortunatly he has trouble with top tier characters like mK,snake, and ROB, who are going to be at almost every tourney)

7)Rob(Good character overall, yet he hasnt done well over the last months as falco,DDD or G&W and thus is letting marth beat him in tourney results, still his ability to camp and get low %KO's is invaluable)

Middle(This is what I think is the rest of the tourney viable will be in)
9)lucario(as time progresses, lucario's tourney results get better just as wario does on a smaller degree, could compete with Rob and marth for that bottom of high tier spot)
Just my opinion,constuctive critizism helps. Remeber the focus of this list is the top/high tiers i edited

 

[hizzlum]

In what universe is Marth 60-40 against ROB and Snake.

ROB is 50-50, Snake is 55-45.

You're working on old match-up data, the metagame evolved significantly since ROB and Snake were considered Marth counters.

ROB goes completely even with Marth, Snake has a very slight advantage.

Check the Marth board's match-up discussion, they deal with the match-up in depth. You can also check the ROB Board's match-up discussion, they say the same thing. Snake's current match-up discussion hasn't covered Marth yet, so we'll see.


The point is, it's just MK. But Marth is a character that soft counters a lot of characters, and hard counters... *hears birds chirping* yeah that's pretty much it. With an established top tier, it's much better to hard counter a lot of characters and have disadvantages, at least as far as tournament results go. DDD is a perfect example of this.

Marth is only countered by MK, and even that is just a soft counter, his tournament results issue stems from MK being on the scene and the lack of characters that he hard counters. In a Vacuum, his match-ups are the second best in the game.

K thanks for the information, its just other match-up charts say that marth<rob, but your evidence is more conclusive and in detail, so i am using it in my modifications of my tier list
With the dissucssion of marth match-ups aside and cleared, I thinkwe should talk about the tier list itself and editions or modifications people make, does anyone have anything to say about my changes
*number is spot on my list
Top(Always going to be at every money tourney and is almost guaranteed to place high)
1)MK(Banned already in Italy, being tested to see if he should be banned in US, im neutral on this topic, but I agree with the fact MK has the #1 spot in the brawl metagame now)

2)Snake(Also being tested if he should be banned with MK, was thriving before the summer, until MK passed him, yet still unquestionably on of the elite in competitive play)

High(I find that MK and snake are placing much higher than the one's listed below and their match-ups agree, there in too little separation in the top tier of the SBR lists as snake and MK dominate tourneys, and this group in noticeably slightly worse)
3)DDD(As time goes by, falco seems to be taking his place, yet still his CG is almost autowins, exceot for the immunities that Falco,MK,G&W have on him as they also are in almost every tourney)

3)Falco(I believed as SK92 is dominating tourneys and so have other flaco's that DDD and falco are very close in potencial and share this spot on the tier list, maybe with G&W)

3)G&W(didnt place in axis and hasn't been winning as much as he did in the ealry metagame yet still seems he will be a top tier character in the future)

7) Wario(doing better in tournies as we speak and shows in at big tournies, could easily rise with falco,G&W and DDD, yet right now its too close to call)

7)Marth(In my opinion marth is fighting rob for this spot as marth's consistency at touneys is proving to keep him at this level in the metagame, his match-ups are good, yet unfortunatly he has trouble with top tier characters like mK,snake, who are going to be at almost every tourney, could compete with Wario for this spot as marth has great macth-ups, also ROb contends for this spot)

7)Rob(Good character overall, yet he hasnt done well over the last months as falco,DDD or G&W and thus is letting marth beat him in tourney results, still his ability to camp and get low %KO's is invaluable)

Middle(This is what I think is the rest of the tourney viable will be in)
9)lucario(as time progresses, lucario's tourney results get better just as wario does on a smaller degree, could compete with Rob and marth for that bottom of high tier spot)
Just my opinion,constuctive critizism helps. Remeber the focus of this list is the top/high tiers i edited

 

[Alphicans]

This is the third time you've posted that. This issues some sort of punishment?

 

[Ryusuta]

^^Yoshi has a grab release chaingrab->fair spike on MK, along with having a great Pivot grab for stopping approaches.

Though that's just the common knowledge. I'm sure there's more too it than that.

Yeah, pretty much any grab-release thing except for the Wario infinite, Yoshi can do to Meta Knight. He can chain, release up-smash, wall infinite, and release spike, and has a relatively easy time doing so (in terms of timing, I mean).

He still only goes neutral (at the moment, though discussion is taking place off and on regarding this) because Meta Knight is... well... Meta Knight, but neutral is pretty darned good, considering who we're talking about.

 

[Crow!]

I expected MK to be his own tier.

Roar at Link's placement! Must win tournaments! Well, must go to tournaments, then I can think about maybe getting good enough to win.

The only character whose placement surprised me was Bowser. He must have some good individual matchups that I don't know about, because in general people can do whatever they want to that beast. My impression has been that Charizard, alone, is better than him.

 

[Umby]

so wtf dude, this is ****ing stupid. why is peach still where she is...man!
like really though, least of all characters how is pit even above peach in the tiers...huh!? or even marth? really man, did you just put the slightly obvious chars in the top tier than throw random **** together for the rest...dude, please revise this.
peach is one of the best in the game. im sorry if you dont think so cause you may suck but if you started out at having a real thought of what the **** you were doing, peach wouldnt be where she is...um, please change.

Am I the only one who laughed at this?

 

[SmashChu]

DK is actually good, and I count Sonic and Lower in this list as bottom

So the list goes from mid. to bottom mow huh?

 

[choknater]

this list is pwnage sons and daughters

 

[sHaDo26]

this tier list is good for now
but it will change

 

[hippochinfat!!]

So the list goes from mid. to bottom mow huh?

Uhh, Sonic isn't mid in the list, he's low. Unless you think Sonic is at the top of low tier in this list (which he's not, check the list again). Hard to understand what you meant exactly.

 

[Skyflyer]

Anyone who says MK should be in his own tier is a scrub.

 

[Alphicans]

^I kind of agree with this statement.

 

[babybaby 12]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

Tiers. Are. For. Queers.

 

[Alphicans]

^ anyone who says that is a scrub -.- . You're kidding right?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone who says MK should be in his own tier is a scrub.

Ummm... why?

The scrub mentality is that you don't play to win. It has nothing to do with belief (mistakened or otherwise) about the reletive power of a particular character. Period.

 

[Alphicans]

Wtf? Scrub comes from the hospital clothing called "scrubs" given to new people, or non-professionals. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't play to win. I agree with that statement, because I feel the other top tier characters are just as hard to play against, and that snake is even harder.

EDIT: Scrub could also come from the name given to people that do just that, scrub (as in dishboy). I just think of hospital clothing when I see scrub.

 

[Barge]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

Tiers. Are. For. Queers.

No.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wtf? Scrub comes from the hospital clothing called "scrubs" given to new people, or non-professionals. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't play to win. I agree with that statement, because I feel the other top tier characters are just as hard to play against, and that snake is even harder.

EDIT: Scrub could also come from the name given to people that do just that, scrub (as in dishboy). I just think of hospital clothing when I see scrub.

In competitive gaming, what precisely constitutes a "non-professional" has been defined. Somebody who lacks the "play to win" attitude. It's taken on a distinct meaning from a "scrub" in other fields. Primarily because we have a host of other terms to describe somebody who is merely new.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Wtf? Scrub comes from the hospital clothing called "scrubs" given to new people, or non-professionals. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't play to win. I agree with that statement, because I feel the other top tier characters are just as hard to play against, and that snake is even harder.

EDIT: Scrub could also come from the name given to people that do just that, scrub (as in dishboy). I just think of hospital clothing when I see scrub.

Scrub != noob.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

Tiers. Are. For. Queers.

said it once? where? well, you did day it once, on your first post

 

[Alphicans]

In competitive gaming, what precisely constitutes a "non-professional" has been defined. Somebody who lacks the "play to win" attitude. It's taken on a distinct meaning from a "scrub" in other fields. Primarily because we have a host of other terms to describe somebody who is merely new.

Well this definition has a lot of loop holes. I could merely say I play to win, and that makes me a professional? And If I said I don't play to win, does that make me a scrub? I think skill has to take place here.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well this definition has a lot of loop holes. I could merely say I play to win, and that makes me a professional? And If I said I don't play to win, does that make me a scrub? I think skill has to take place here.

No.

If you "play to win," that means you will do everything within REASON to win. Not get up and jab the other guy's eyes out in the middle of a match, mind, but play with the intent of utilizing everything that you can possibly have at your disposal. A scrub (as far as the video game community goes) is somebody who believes in "ethical" play when it comes to competitive gaming.

Examples:

OMG THROWS ARE SO CHEAP! BAN THEM!

QUIT SPAMMING NEUTRAL B OVER AND OVER AGAIN! BAN WHORENADO PL0X!

^ That is common scrub mentality.

Do not misconstrue this sort of mentality with competitive rulesets established by, say, the SBR for example. Those are put in place via comprehensive testing. Unlike the above, the results of not going along with those competitive rulesets could potentially skew the balance of a good tournament set.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Karas]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again.

Tiers. Are. For. Queers.

you are so cool. Not.

a think a Scrub is just someone whos cheap and spams a button. Such as the tl arrows. or the
Mk tornado. it gets annoying if people just tape down the B button, thats What I call a scrub.
and thats what i think a scrub should stay as, Someone Who Plays Smash/brawl for the fun shouldnt Be Called a scrub

 

[Ryusuta]

a think a Scrub is just someone whos cheap

Oh, the irony.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

Oh, the irony.

It is indeed most delicious. *eats ravenously*

 

[Morrigan]

you are so cool. Not.

a think a Scrub is just someone whos cheap and spams a button. Such as the tl arrows. or the
Mk tornado. it gets annoying if people just tape down the B button, thats What I call a scrub.
and thats what i think a scrub should stay as, Someone Who Plays Smash/brawl for the fun shouldnt Be Called a scrub

The term "Scrub" doesn't refer to playstyle, it's more related to an ideology.

 

[choknater]

dekuu is correct

 

[adrian Blk]

olimar should be bottom of high tier

 

[Zinc Elemental]

olimar should be bottom of high tier

Reasons plox?
He's pretty close to it, anyway...

 

[choknater]

let's see... the metagame has evolved just a little bit since this list was created... i wonder how long it will be for the SBR to change it. will they be liberal this time and change it every few months, or will they stick with SBR tradition and wait years before changing it?

anyway, a little analysis on things that have changed in the metagame (just choknater's opinion)

Top
Meta Knight

Snake - showing FAR less domination. it's much more common to see dedede, falco, and G&W place high in tournaments now. snake is solid, but pretty much everyone is learning how to get through his stage-dominating spacing game. still deserving of top tier, but not 2nd place.

King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch - may pass up dedede, IMO
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario - still underrated. deserves this spot
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy - shows greater representation than DK and luke, and is showing much greater prominence in high tournament placings. see - NL, gano, nanerz, and more
Pikachu
Ice Climbers - wow. two words: fly amanita. could he do to ic's what chudat did with them in melee? at this point, it could be just a gifted player who's good at a decently high tier character. would ic's be deserving in a higher spot in the tiers? not really sure.
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach - i think the order of bowser/luigi/peach should be reversed
Ike
Sheik - IMO the order should go peach/luigi/sheik/ike/bowser. things have changed....

anyway, those characters still all deserve low/mid. if i can see peach having potential to rise even higher though.

Low

hm... as for low tiers... it's more about who still has untapped potential than anything else

Lucas - i don't know if he'll ever reach mid, but he deserves this spot imo
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer - potential? yes
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic - potential? yes
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

imo ganon should be very bottom, but that's just me. link players (deva, izaw, legan) are really showing some potential in link, but i don't know if he'd ever get past bottom. falcon maybe 2nd to last.

you know, i can see why the sbr didn't create a "bottom tier." the characters near the bottom of low tier aren't really bad enough to be considered super horrible. they each have strengths that can still be used against high/top tier characters.

this game is more about matchups than tiers, anyway, so my opinion on all this shouldn't really matter much. just saying.

 

[Morrigan]

^I agree with everything.

This time they released the tier list like super fast. I wouldn't be surprised if the tradition breaks and they update it more often. Probably a few switches in character positions (especially High and Mid), nothing extreme.

 

[NJzFinest]

If GW wasn't as light as he is, then I might consider him rising above DDD.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

you know, i can see why the sbr didn't create a "bottom tier." the characters near the bottom of low tier aren't really bad enough to be considered super horrible. they each have strengths that can still be used against high/top tier characters.

Wait wait wait. Did you just say Captain Falcon has strengths against the top tier?
He really has very little potential or signiifcant advantages against skilled players in his favor at all...
I feel there should be a bottom tier, even if only for him. That way, it can be the manly tier.

Other than that, you make some good points.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree with most of Choknaters points. I only find Marth to be top tierish. He isn't a whole tier worse than ROB

 

[Plum]

If GW wasn't as light as he is, then I might consider him rising above DDD.

Just imagine how good G&W would be if he had some weight. But I can't see G&W moving any higher than he is, the three above him all have plenty of kill moves that are even better due to his extreme light weight.

That being said, G&W has some amazing kill moves as well, and his amazing recovery does make up for some of his weight. His only true problem matches are non bucket projectile users, Snake and TL but like any other character practice can turn these the other way for the player.

I can't see him getting any lower than he is, he has everything going for him except his weight, but I agree that we probably won't see him moving higher. At least with the current metagame.

I do see Snake potentially falling. He still is great, but his days of dominance is over. Give it time and I think we will see more and more characters find ways around his spacing game.

And then there is MK.... :\ Maybe the Back Room doesn't want to create a tier higher than top, but MK is certainly there. It takes some extreme skill to take him down. No way does he break the game or anything, but one of his greatest advantages is the fact that MK players don't have to be nearly as perfect with every little aspect of the game as other characters. Not saying it doesn't take skill to play MK; I suck balls with him, but little mistakes that would spell death for any other character can be ignored by MK it seems.

 

[Homsar, a Trendy Tote Bag]

but little mistakes that would spell death for any other character can be ignored by MK it seems.

For how long, I wonder?

 

[gamer8]

Low

Captain Falcon

You freaking hater, Captain Falcon is dead last? That's just plain ********.

 

[Morrigan]

Grrr my character sucks?

 

[Barge]

After playing Melee last night...Links Zair has insane range....