The Official "Competitive Viability Speculaiton of Smash 4" Thread

[Acadian Flycatcher]

I'm just making this thread now so we don't have to go through the inevitable 15 that are made in the next few days.

So whenever anyone feels the need to make another "Smash 4 won't be a good competitive game because..."
Just post it in here.

Time to clear up the clutter on this main page so we can actually see some Smash news and not a new thread about the same thing every two days.

 

[Renji64]

Yeah so much smash news coming in to talk about lol.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

It's going to be competitively viable. At least, based off the demo, it should definitely last longer than brawl.

There is hitstun in this game, it's faster, it will have a wider selection of characters and stages, multiple FD options, and better online capabilities. All of these, in one way or another, are going to contribute to this game having a flourishing scene.

 

[pizzapie7]

Why the **** does the irrelevant **** I don't care about get so many threads but the **** I actually do enjoy talking about is forced into a single thread?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why the **** does the irrelevant **** I don't care about get so many threads but the **** I actually do enjoy talking about is forced into a single thread?

Welcome to Addsmashboards.

 

[Johnknight1]

We'll let you know when I've played both games for at least a month what we think based on actual deep and explored evidence.

(please frame data people, go into that stuff by then!!!)

 

[strawhatninja]

I just don't understand why everyone is so concerned about it. The only thing I didn't like was we couldn't watch EVO and such play Brawl. For me, Brawl was fun and that was all that mattered(well besides being angry that they cut

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Why the **** does the irrelevant **** I don't care about get so many threads but the **** I actually do enjoy talking about is forced into a single thread?

Because people make the same threads everyday basically saying the same thing.
Yet the same people flock to those threads.

It's sickening to see all these threads get more attention than when we get news.

So forgive me for trying to make this a better place for people who aren't part of the competitive scene who actually come here to get their Smash Bros. 4 news.

 

[Gidy]

Custom movesets, it's viable.
Done

 

[Veggi]

This game uses the same formula as Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl. All three games had booming competitive scenes that had consistent winners.

This new game has the same core gameplay as the last three titles, but seems to have removed edge stalling and chain grabs. The game also has more people working on balance and people that have made fighting games working on it.

If there is anything that would make this game bad for competitive play we haven't seen it yet. No characters so far seem overpowered, but that could change. If anything, we can at least say that this new game has been addressing problems that existed in previous titles. They made an online mode to try to appeal to us. They hosted tournaments where the upper level matches had us in mind. They know enough about us to be able to invite great players and commentators from our community to show off their game. They're at least trying to make this a fun game for competitive play and I think that says something for the future of this game.

 

[Xermo]

Except the people who make those kinds of threads don't bother searching, so we'll still get more.

 

[Petrichor]

Why the **** does the irrelevant **** I don't care about get so many threads but the **** I actually do enjoy talking about is forced into a single thread?

Probably because this is a single subject, and thus only really warrants a single thread. Not a new one every other day.

What I don't understand is why anyone would really want 20 "Smash 4 is doomed" threads. That just sounds like it would be a complete pain to keep up with.

 

[pizzapie7]

Because people make the same threads everyday basically saying the same thing.
Yet the same people flock to those threads.

It's sickening to see all these threads get more attention than when we get news.

So forgive me for trying to make this a better place for people who aren't part of the competitive scene who actually come here to get their Smash Bros. 4 news.

The same people don't flock to the "news" threads every day? I could just as easily say it's "sickening" that people care more about overanalyzing leaks and pic of the day images than the competitive viability of the game, or that it's "sickening" that people would rather circlejerk over irrelevant characters nobody has ever heard of who have no chance of being in or their perfect fanwanked rosters that fit all the patterns rather than care about the gameplay of the game and the future of the series.

Doesn't mean I'm right just because I'd call it sickening.

People like Smash for different reasons. Your reason for liking Smash is not any more right than anyone else's. Nobody is forcing you to click on threads you don't care about. Isn't all the actual news posted to the front page of Smashboards anyway?

 

[StarLight42]

I'm not going to judge the game until I play the final version. I'm sick of all these depressing youtube videos that rant on the game for being slow and i'm sick of casuals bashing competitive players, it's bad stuff from both sides.

Hopefully the game shuts both sides up because it's really getting on my nerves.

I need a Smash game that's competitively viable but recent and fun to play too, so I don't feel like i'm playing a game that was specifically catered to one side or another. Please Smash 4, please.

 

[Petrichor]

The same people don't flock to the "news" threads every day? I could just as easily say it's "sickening" that people care more about overanalyzing leaks and pic of the day images than the competitive viability of the game, or that it's "sickening" that people would rather circlejerk over irrelevant characters nobody has ever heard of who have no chance of being in or their perfect fanwanked rosters that fit all the patterns rather than care about the gameplay of the game and the future of the series.

Doesn't mean I'm right just because I'd call it sickening.

People like Smash for different reasons. Your reason for liking Smash is not any more right than anyone else's. Nobody is forcing you to click on threads you don't care about. Isn't all the actual news posted to the front page of Smashboards anyway?

I guess the difference is that those things are generally contained to their own sections of the site. We have a Leaks group, a Character Discussion sub-forum, a News sub-forum and so on. People who want to avoid those discussions just need to avoid those sections of the site. But threads about the competitive viability of Smash Bros all get posted to the General Discussion board, and since people make so many of them they end up causing unnecessary clutter. If there was a separate section of the site for competitive viability discussion then maybe you could have two dozen "What if Smash 4 fails" threads. But whether the subject even really warrants something like that is questionable at best since the game isn't out yet.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

The same people don't flock to the "news" threads every day? I could just as easily say it's "sickening" that people care more about overanalyzing leaks and pic of the day images than the competitive viability of the game, or that it's "sickening" that people would rather circlejerk over irrelevant characters nobody has ever heard of who have no chance of being in or their perfect fanwanked rosters that fit all the patterns rather than care about the gameplay of the game and the future of the series.

Doesn't mean I'm right just because I'd call it sickening.

People like Smash for different reasons. Your reason for liking Smash is not any more right than anyone else's. Nobody is forcing you to click on threads you don't care about. Isn't all the actual news posted to the front page of Smashboards anyway?

I never once said anything about fake rosters or leaks. That's not ****ing news.

Why the hell shouldn't we over analysis pic of the day images? That's the only constant stream of news we get for this game.
How is it sickening to discuss how the Special Flag item will be used in battles? Or how much it changes the direction of the match?

I'm not at all saying people shouldn't discuss the competitive viability of the E3 demo build of the game. Or that they can only discuss updates.

The point is, IT'S ALL IN THE SAME ****ING THREAD!

Daily update thread, stage discussion thread, character sub sections, etc. Why can't there be one for competitive concerns?

You don't see brand new threads being made daily about the pics of the day. It's all contained in one topic. And if there was I bet there would be an outcry.

So what I'm proposing here is not to simply "stop talking about the competitive viability of this game" which you obviously think I am.
I am saying is to keep it in the same god damn thread.
It's all the same ****.
People can read through the thread and see the same argument 5 different times so they no not to post a brand new thread about it.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Oh hey, a centralized thread for making sure the community is the same as it was for Brawl. No one ever say that people aren't allowed to complain. Apparently what this community needs is more of a divide and no cooperation or optimism.

Seriously, some of you are seriously pissing me off. If you don't want to wait until the game comes out to bash it, or you simply hate the game, then please, for the love of all that is good and holy, stop posting in the Sm4sh threads! It's not going to change anything, and it's only going to continue the hate that still pervades to this day of Brawl vs. Melee! Jaysus!

 

[Johnknight1]

Custom movesets, it's viable.
Done

Eh, it's viable to be legal from the get go, but if it's imbalanced, we gotta get patches or ban a lot of special moves.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Oh hey, a centralized thread for making sure the community is the same as it was for Brawl. No one ever say that people aren't allowed to complain. Apparently what this community needs is more of a divide and no cooperation or optimism.

Seriously, some of you are seriously pissing me off. If you don't want to wait until the game comes out to bash it, or you simply hate the game, then please, for the love of all that is good and holy, stop posting in the Sm4sh threads! It's not going to change anything, and it's only going to continue the hate that still pervades to this day of Brawl vs. Melee! Jaysus!

It's not dividing anything.

It's cleaning up this mess of a "general page".

I'm not the only one who is tired of seeing "Smash 4 will be a bad competitive game because..." threads made every day.

Those people will never stop. This forum is full of "glass half empty" type of people who complain at anything.

All I'm saying is to make a thread to make them happy, and clean up this main page for the casual fan passing by who came here to get his Smash news.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It's not dividing anything.

It's cleaning up this mess of a "general page".

I'm not the only one who is tired of seeing "Smash 4 will be a bad competitive game because..." threads made every day.

Those people will never stop. This forum is full of "glass half empty" type of people who complain at anything.

All I'm saying is to make a thread to make them happy, and clean up this main page for the casual fan passing by who came here to get his Smash news.

Oh, I didn't mean centralizing the posts itself were bad, I just meant the topic and the dismissive, pessimistic people as a whole were. You did good in (trying) to condense the multiple threads into one, mi amigo.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Oh, I didn't mean centralizing the posts itself were bad, I just meant the topic and the dismissive, pessimistic people as a whole were. You did good in (trying) to condense the multiple threads into one, mi amigo.

Well there are always going to be two sides to these kind of topics. It's impossible to create a civilized environment for discussion, but it is possible to contain that argument so it doesn't flow out all over the website.

 

[TerminalMontage]

So what exactly makes a game competitive? Or more competitive than others? Cause, of course it'll be competitive, it's a fighting game.

Is wave dashing, exploiting every cancel, and chain grabbing the stuff that make games like Melee "more" competitive?

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm personally hoping. That's all I can do, though, hope, because we really have jack **** to go on. Which means headcanons, biases, rumors, and blatant lies get mixed up with the facts way too much.

So what exactly makes a game competitive? Or more competitive than others? Cause, of course it'll be competitive, it's a fighting game.

Is wave dashing, exploiting every cancel, and chain grabbing the stuff that make games like Melee "more" competitive?

I think the general opinion of what makes a game more competitive is basically that it's a better spectator sport.
Strictly speaking, Brawl was as competitive as Melee, but it was a lot less fun to watch.

 

[pizzapie7]

@ Petrichor Maybe we do need a competitive discussion subforum then. Maybe I've been away for too long but people never complained about competitive discussion this much in the past. Like, why come to Smashboards if you're just going to ***** and moan about what people have been discussing on Smashboards (competitive play) since forever, you know what I mean?

snip

They were examples man. I couldn't give any less of a **** about pictures of the day unless they reveal a new character, so I don't post in threads about them, nor do I open threads about them.

I'm looking at the first page of threads and as far as competitive thread are concerned, and I'm being very generous with what's considered "competitive" I see a thread making an analogy between Smash and Street Fighter as series, SamuraiPanda's thread, thread about being optimistic and positive competitive things, thread about landing lag, thread about Final Destination, landing lag/frame data thread, and a thread about character balance. That's not counting this thread. That's 7 of the forty threads on the first page, and that's 6 different topics. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Is it that hard to ignore things you don't care about?

edit: Now there's a competitive stage list thread up. So that's 8/40. What's that, 20%?

 

[Black Mantis]

http://meleeiton.me/2014/08/12/smash-4-gameplay-impressions/

 

[LIQUID12A]

See, Sm4sh is viable. The invitational and SDCC have proven it for their respective versions.

The issue is seeing biased nostalgic Melee players saying it's Brawl 2.0 when it's not. To me, they are a minority that doesn't matter and there's no reason to take anything they say seriously. Do they disagree with viability? Melee and Project M still exist. Just let those who want to move on do so and stop trying to ruin the image of a game that's not even out yet.

 

[Colino]

Is wave dashing, exploiting every cancel, and chain grabbing the stuff that make games like Melee "more" competitive?

The game requiring some acute level of skill helps. Also it has to be fun to watch.

 

[Petrichor]

@ Petrichor Maybe we do need a competitive discussion subforum then. Maybe I've been away for too long but people never complained about competitive discussion this much in the past. Like, why come to Smashboards if you're just going to ***** and moan about what people have been discussing on Smashboards (competitive play) since forever, you know what I mean?

I get what you mean, but I don't think that the problem is that people are discussing competitive play. The problem is that the vocal minority (and they do seem to be a minority at this stage) that have a very negative view of Smash 4 insist on creating a large number of threads on the subject in a relatively short space of time. We have one such thread that has kept going for a while and from what I saw of it generated some fairly solid debate. But that hasn't stopped other people of that opinion from creating more and more negative threads about Smash 4. It just seems like very heavy-handed and pushy behaviour from one side of the debate.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

It is REALLY hard for me to formulate an opinion right now.

I've seen numerous impressions and analysis of Smash 4. Some are positive, others are negative, a few are neutral. Who should I believe? The only other thing I can rely on is gameplay footage of a demo that is possibly outdated in relation to the final build. Since I haven't played it, I can barely create my own prediction of the competitve viability of this game. All I can do is listen to the thoughts of those who have played it, and I'm constantly questioning whether or not I should take their word for their observations and conclusions.

So with that, I am neutral towards the competitive aspect of this game, and I will probably stay that way until I can get my hands on the game and create my own observations of the mechanics and predict what will become of Smash 4 in the future.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

http://meleeiton.me/2014/08/12/smash-4-gameplay-impressions/

You know, reading through this again really makes me optimistic. Just look at the part about game mechanics.

-Weak shields.
-Air dodges are worse than they were in brawl.
-hitstun/comboability.

This all makes the gameplay more aggressive than brawl's. The only thing going against Argo mechanics is landing lag and general game speed.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You know, reading through this again really makes me optimistic. Just look at the part about game mechanics.

-Weak shields.
-Air dodges are worse than they were in brawl.
-hitstun/comboability.

This all makes the gameplay more aggressive than brawl's. The only thing going against Argo mechanics is landing lag and general game speed.

The one thing that really irks me though is characters surviving for so long. That gets on my nerves quite a bit. I'm not sure if it's due to attacks generally being weaker, the Stale Move Negation mechanic, the death zones being wider, or all of the above. It frustrates me when I see characters surviving a Smash Attack when they're around 130%.

 

[Aninymouse]

Except the people who make those kinds of threads don't bother searching, so we'll still get more.

*raises hand* Guilty as charged. Though, to be fair, I attempted to make an optimistic counterpart to the (at the time) current pessimistic thread.

Flycatcher is apparently guilty of the same thing. I don't see what this thread will do that others in the past haven't done. Do you just want this stickied? Is that the goal? Well, it would become a cesspool, but you are correct in that it would prevent a lot of other threads on the topic from proliferating.

The only problem is, the topic of competitive success or failure of a fighting game is a very complex topic with a lot of resulting rabbit trails. It basically encompasses everything about the game and the players. Kind of hard to bar creating threads on such a blanket term such as "competitive viability," or "competitive success"; those can be defined ten different ways and argued ten more ways until Sunday.

 

[LIQUID12A]

*raises hand* Guilty as charged. Though, to be fair, I attempted to make an optimistic counterpart to the (at the time) current pessimistic thread.

Flycatcher is apparently guilty of the same thing. I don't see what this thread will do that others in the past haven't done. Do you just want this stickied? Is that the goal? Well, it would become a cesspool, but you are correct in that it would prevent a lot of other threads on the topic from proliferating.

Jokes aside, I agree with a singular topic on one single subject. Everyone's got a perspective but it's not worth making 10 different threads for.

 

[Doomstar]

At the very least, there's a (more) dedicated effort towards online play. Brawl's was the worst ever. Ever. It'll be nice to just jump online into a match or 2. Of course then the issue will be how terrible or great everyone online is.

 

[Xiaphas]

I think it will have a competitive scene regardless of if it is viable or not. The better question is if the high level play will be entertaining to watch. So far it seems like it's fun to watch, but since nobody has mastered it yet, that could all change.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Because people make the same threads everyday basically saying the same thing.
Yet the same people flock to those threads.

It's sickening to see all these threads get more attention than when we get news.

So forgive me for trying to make this a better place for people who aren't part of the competitive scene who actually come here to get their Smash Bros. 4 news.

Yes, and there are many threads for the same thing anyhow. Art this, leak that, roster speculation this, Amiibo that.

You're not trying to make the forums a better place. You are trying to force the people you insult in every other thread into a corner out of spite. It is for that reason that I would probably be more accepting of this thread's existence if it was made by someone who actually gives two ****s about competitive play instead of some guy who hates it.

 

[Senario]

Yes, and there are many threads for the same thing anyhow. Art this, leak that, roster speculation this, Amiibo that.

You're not trying to make the forums a better place. You are trying to force the people you insult in every other thread into a corner out of spite. It is for that reason that I would probably be more accepting of this thread's existence if it was made by someone who actually gives two ****s about competitive play instead of some guy who hates it.

Exactly this, we don't make a big thread and tell you GO PUT ALL ART, LEAKS, ROSTER STUFF, AND AMIIBOS HERE. We honestly don't care and let them have different topics because they are well...different topics.

Most of the competitive topics are different topics as well. Its just that people like him and others like to complain about people trying to determine what matters to them. Competitive Viability of the game.

Basically. He shouldn't have made this, if somebody who actually cared about the competitive viability made the topic and not somebody who insulted it at every turn made it we might have gotten somewhere. Right now he is just grouping all topics into a forum Gulag or Slum just because he doesn't want to see "our kind" anywhere else.

 

[HeavyLobster]

We're officially in the dog days of Smash speculation. There's tons of veterans that feel like they should've been announced, but Sakurai just keeps us in limbo on them and torments us with his teases. It feels like we should be getting way more information than we are, but we're still left in the dark, so there's nothing left to do but rehash the old "Melee vs. Brawl vs. Smash 4 vs. Smash 64 vs. Project M vs. Street Fighter vs. PSASBR knockdown drag-out smashboree" arguments ad nauseam in our desperation. We've been given tantalizing amounts of information while still being left in the dark in so many other ways that it's driving us completely insane. An information drought in, say, March is one thing, but we're only a month away from release, and we're stuck in a no-man's land of having nothing of substance to discuss without really being able to tune out from Smash hype for a little bit. It's a frustrating position to be in.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Honestly at this point I'm just sick of talking about what we may or may not know because the demo is this old or that old or the other thing with the mechanics and lack of mechanics and landing lag is ridiculous but there's combos anyways and everyone wants Melee and Brawl is garbage and melee players are elitist and pivot canceling is super hype but the game is too slow and Sakurai hates us and Sakurai loves us and someone stole my chocolate bar and god DAMN I just want the game to come out already so we can finally just see what the hell we're dealing with and we can start ******** instead about why MK got buffed or how Dedede's custom Jet Hammer 2 is the glitchiest thing in the whole game. And YES I MADE THOSE UP OBVIOUSLY.

/rant. Really though, is there something we haven't dissected from this demo yet? With the possible exception of discussing stage viability, I feel like we've just been revisiting the same subjects over and over again in different threads. "Will it competitive?" "What if it isn't?" "What if it IS?" I'm just kinda over it all.

I apologize in advance for how obnoxious this post is. I know we haven't really gotten any huge bits of info or gameplay since Comic Con and there isn't much to talk about besides our age-old debates.

 

[Raijinken]

I will play it, viable or not. But I speculate that it will be viable, because every past Smash game has been viable.