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The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Because I made a quick post summarizing who I agreed with?
Saffron camp factor >>> Hyrule camp factor
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Tank, just because you disagree with what people say doesn't mean that you are wrong or they are wrong. I think it was Puff vs Yoshi, with SheerMadness, where he disagreed with what everyone thought (I believe we thought it was Puff advantage and he thought it was even), stated his opinion, and through debating and playing the matchup, others changed their opinion (I was still in favour of Puff advantage, but for the sake of moving on, I could accept even).
Also, one reason Saffron is probably banned is helicopter camping. For example, try playing as DK against a Kirby who does nothing but sit on the helicopter pad doing nothing but up-tilt when you come close. The only way to approach is from above. Obviously, if nobody will abuse that and just play matches properly, then this is not a problem, but when play to win comes into play, and everyone is using whatever they can to win, somebody will use this.
Also, one reason Saffron is probably banned is helicopter camping. For example, try playing as DK against a Kirby who does nothing but sit on the helicopter pad doing nothing but up-tilt when you come close. The only way to approach is from above. Obviously, if nobody will abuse that and just play matches properly, then this is not a problem, but when play to win comes into play, and everyone is using whatever they can to win, somebody will use this.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
I don't see how that could be true.
"Camping" in the tent isn't an issue. It's the unapproachable nature of the helipad. You can approach someone in the tent area easily.
"Camping" in the tent isn't an issue. It's the unapproachable nature of the helipad. You can approach someone in the tent area easily.
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I agree. The tent, there is a much larger area where you can enter that bottom platform. You can also simply stay on the top of the tent, and can now go in the tent from either side of the tower. Sure, it may not be favourable to enter the tent, but if you play smartly, you can enter the tent safely. If someone is camping on the far left side of the tent, just enter on the right side and jump to the top of the tower if you don't think it's safe.
As far as the helicopter pad goes, the only place you can approach from is above. There is no ground to the right, there is a pit to the left, where the next piece of land is higher than the helicopter pad (therefore most attacks from the closest platform will be too high or may be too far to reach a character camping on the pad). The only way to actually successfully approach this character is by an aerial approach, where some characters like Kirby can completely and easily counter. If your character has a projectile, then maybe you can use that, depending on the projectile, but otherwise, Falcon, DK, and other similar characters must approach. I said look at DK vs Kirby in my previous post, but thinking about it, Luigi vs Kirby would be worse. Luigi's projectile is no threat to Kirby whatsoever, and his approach is terrible to begin with... not to mention Kirby's up-tilt completely out-ranges and prioritizes basically all of Luigi's options.
As far as the helicopter pad goes, the only place you can approach from is above. There is no ground to the right, there is a pit to the left, where the next piece of land is higher than the helicopter pad (therefore most attacks from the closest platform will be too high or may be too far to reach a character camping on the pad). The only way to actually successfully approach this character is by an aerial approach, where some characters like Kirby can completely and easily counter. If your character has a projectile, then maybe you can use that, depending on the projectile, but otherwise, Falcon, DK, and other similar characters must approach. I said look at DK vs Kirby in my previous post, but thinking about it, Luigi vs Kirby would be worse. Luigi's projectile is no threat to Kirby whatsoever, and his approach is terrible to begin with... not to mention Kirby's up-tilt completely out-ranges and prioritizes basically all of Luigi's options.
TANK64
Smash Lord
Well, It's just, if that's how YOU posted. I fear to see how/what others post.Because I made a quick post summarizing who I agreed with?
I suppose I will have faith.
I was contemplating this for a while, and yea, I kept on coming back to kirby's Utilt on the pad.
I don't see how to approach it with falcon/dk/any char.
Such a shame. I like that stage.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Glad to see I have a reputation for long posts
Yeah I just didn't feel like explaining too much, but if someone posts like that in a debate their opinion won't be counted for much.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
what about zebes? i know the obvious reason why it's banned is because of the lava but is it really THAT big of a deal to keep it from being a cp? i'm fully aware of the fact that it chains 3-4 lava hits at 0 % and kills characters at 100-150 % but you're always given warning on when it comes up and it's really not that hard to avoid it when you know that. i know i'm not alone on this because traditionally zebes has been borderline cp/banned but are there still any tourneys that have zebes as a cp?
ballin4life
Smash Hero
It's not that much warning ... anyway Zebes > Saffron IMO but I don't like it overall. I played a tournament match on Zebes once and the lava got about half the kills, which is a little too much for a stage hazard if you ask me.
Sangoku
Smash Master
FD should be made legal. Has anyone tried it on console by the way? Except from it I only like hyrule which sucks, since the current tendency is to play more on dreamland/congo.
I admit however that the tornado is ******* annoying.
Edit: I bet I'm gonna receive an infraction/warning for censor dodging lol.
Edit2: I was right. Leet I can control those weak mods ^('v')^
I admit however that the tornado is ******* annoying.
Edit: I bet I'm gonna receive an infraction/warning for censor dodging lol.
Edit2: I was right. Leet I can control those weak mods ^('v')^
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Zebes acid has way to big of an impact on the game for me personally to even consider it.
It has to be the perfect example of a stage with a hazard that just obliterates everything. Upwards to 95% of the stage can be covered with acid (by 95% i mean 95% of the stage you actually play on) which forces the two players to be on a very minimal area platform.
Was CAMPING ever a reason to get rid of a stage competitively anyways? lol. Thats why HYRULE isn't banned. (That and its stage hazard Isn't game breaking like Zebes)
It has to be the perfect example of a stage with a hazard that just obliterates everything. Upwards to 95% of the stage can be covered with acid (by 95% i mean 95% of the stage you actually play on) which forces the two players to be on a very minimal area platform.
Was CAMPING ever a reason to get rid of a stage competitively anyways? lol. Thats why HYRULE isn't banned. (That and its stage hazard Isn't game breaking like Zebes)
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
or just let the br do it...there's no point in having two of them running
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I agree to stage charts and numerical values. Though if both us and the backroom are doing it...
And to answer After Dawn's question, my tournaments often have Planet Zebes as a counterpick due to lots of people liking that stage (rarely gets chosen, but lots of people like that stage).
And to answer After Dawn's question, my tournaments often have Planet Zebes as a counterpick due to lots of people liking that stage (rarely gets chosen, but lots of people like that stage).
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
@Zebes I feel like discussing this stage is just going to be a repeat of the Melee Brinstar debate. It comes down to whether or not you think stage hazards affecting tournament play is "fair", even when it's not random. Some people will say, "Oh, you can see it coming, you should be prepared", while others will say, "It affects gameplay too much, you shouldn't be forced to adjust to stage, but just your opponent, etc." I don't really have an opinion on whether stage hazards should be a factor or not, but I'm leaning towards Zebes lava being too powerful.
1. Arguments - Nobody ever ****ing explains why, they just say, "lol it's horrible". The only reason I've ever seen given is "hurr durr Puff dies from Luigi's Up-B at like 30%", ignoring the fact that Puff can get a Utilt chain started when Luigi is at a similar percent into a rest kill, so it's not that big of an advantage. They both have powerful kill moves, but somehow people only pay attention to one.
2. Personal experience - People have counterpicked my Puff with Luigi all the time, and I've never been absolutely ***** like I have been in Fox Samus or Pikachu Link or something. The most recent time I've played this was vs Battlecow, which I lost but held up in pretty well. Speaking of which:
To stop you from responding with the predictable "no johns": I know these are johns or whatever, but even if I WAS taking that random friendly seriously, I still got you down to the last stock at high percent, and I got a two stock lead in the beginning. It shouldn't be that ****ing close if it's such a bad match-up. You make it sound much worse than it is. Do you think I could have done the same with Link vs Pikachu on DL or something like that? And I won't john if you agree to "seriouslies" in a set of this match-up.
It's not like I'm adamant about it not being so bad. I'm open to the idea, I just want something to convince me. Basically, I want someone to either explain to me why it's so bad, or destroy me in this match-up. And no, barely winning by one stock isn't destroying me, like Battlecow seems to think.
Neither any arguments I've read or my personal experience points to the match-up being completely awful.
1. Arguments - Nobody ever ****ing explains why, they just say, "lol it's horrible". The only reason I've ever seen given is "hurr durr Puff dies from Luigi's Up-B at like 30%", ignoring the fact that Puff can get a Utilt chain started when Luigi is at a similar percent into a rest kill, so it's not that big of an advantage. They both have powerful kill moves, but somehow people only pay attention to one.
2. Personal experience - People have counterpicked my Puff with Luigi all the time, and I've never been absolutely ***** like I have been in Fox Samus or Pikachu Link or something. The most recent time I've played this was vs Battlecow, which I lost but held up in pretty well. Speaking of which:
Seriously? Seriously?? First of all, I easily obtained a four stock to two stock lead, which shouldn't really happen if it's such a **** match-up. You did end up coming back, but that's because I tend to start fooling around after I get a big lead like that in friendlies. Your main strategy became camping in the tent - what if I had just chosen not to approach? I did approach, but that's because it was a friendly, for heaven's sake. If you want to play a serious match, you should have told me that you wanted to do "seriouslies". I didn't know you were going to take the results of our one game so seriously (and it was just one game).
To stop you from responding with the predictable "no johns": I know these are johns or whatever, but even if I WAS taking that random friendly seriously, I still got you down to the last stock at high percent, and I got a two stock lead in the beginning. It shouldn't be that ****ing close if it's such a bad match-up. You make it sound much worse than it is. Do you think I could have done the same with Link vs Pikachu on DL or something like that? And I won't john if you agree to "seriouslies" in a set of this match-up.
It's not like I'm adamant about it not being so bad. I'm open to the idea, I just want something to convince me. Basically, I want someone to either explain to me why it's so bad, or destroy me in this match-up. And no, barely winning by one stock isn't destroying me, like Battlecow seems to think.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Alright, we're going to start with Dreamland, just for us to get a hang of this before we get into Hyrule, Peach's and Kongo, which can be a bit more tricky to discuss.
PLEASE READ THE OP. I re-wrote it and made important comments about getting us started. Like last time, any opinions you have, just post in the thread here and explain why. From there we'll discuss each match-up until we form a consensus and I'll update the chart.
Also, we're just doing Dreamland for now, this thread is not about stage legality and there are obviously errors right now as I used the general chart from last time as a base. Don't be dumb.
PLEASE READ THE OP. I re-wrote it and made important comments about getting us started. Like last time, any opinions you have, just post in the thread here and explain why. From there we'll discuss each match-up until we form a consensus and I'll update the chart.
Also, we're just doing Dreamland for now, this thread is not about stage legality and there are obviously errors right now as I used the general chart from last time as a base. Don't be dumb.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i vote puff being 35-65 instead of 30-70 vs fox since she doesn't get laser camped as hard as on hyrule.
maybe samus gains an extra 5 % as well? same reasoning applies except the closer platform setup gives her better approach options against fox
if you disagree, please provide some reasoning as to why you think so, perhaps i'm wrong
maybe samus gains an extra 5 % as well? same reasoning applies except the closer platform setup gives her better approach options against fox
if you disagree, please provide some reasoning as to why you think so, perhaps i'm wrong
plus for fox
jiggly puff gets ***** by shine even more on dreamland.
fox can camp the platforms and make it very hard for jiggs to manoeuvre for a nair or something.
plus for jiggs
more opportunites to abuse easy edgeguards.
rest kills sooner.
samus im undecided about. samus can gain some easier techchases and more opportunites to edge hog.
jiggly puff gets ***** by shine even more on dreamland.
fox can camp the platforms and make it very hard for jiggs to manoeuvre for a nair or something.
plus for jiggs
more opportunites to abuse easy edgeguards.
rest kills sooner.
samus im undecided about. samus can gain some easier techchases and more opportunites to edge hog.
Star King:
From what I've gathered the main arguments for Luigi >> Puff are that:
1. Puff can't get too many utilts on Luigi since he is floaty and as a result the finishing rest often doesn't kill. One of the downsides for puff in any match-up is that if she can't kill after the main initial combo she can have a very hard time finishing them off.
2. I think Hyrule was played a lot more back when the match-up was first decided and people hated the fact that if Luigi got a grab on puff in the tent at like 30% it was game over for puff.
3. One Uair on puff at anything past 30% is death for her.
As for my personal opinions I think it can depend. On Dreamland/Congo where the blast lines are often closer to the characters I think Puff stands much more of a chance as her utilts>rest are more likely to kill.
However on Hyrule if the Luigi plays quite defensive or camps in the tent it's going to be much more stacked in Luigi's favour.
From what I've gathered the main arguments for Luigi >> Puff are that:
1. Puff can't get too many utilts on Luigi since he is floaty and as a result the finishing rest often doesn't kill. One of the downsides for puff in any match-up is that if she can't kill after the main initial combo she can have a very hard time finishing them off.
2. I think Hyrule was played a lot more back when the match-up was first decided and people hated the fact that if Luigi got a grab on puff in the tent at like 30% it was game over for puff.
3. One Uair on puff at anything past 30% is death for her.
As for my personal opinions I think it can depend. On Dreamland/Congo where the blast lines are often closer to the characters I think Puff stands much more of a chance as her utilts>rest are more likely to kill.
However on Hyrule if the Luigi plays quite defensive or camps in the tent it's going to be much more stacked in Luigi's favour.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
If Jiggly's rest combo doesn't kill Luigi, Luigi will be too slow to come back to punish Jiggly back most of the time due to his terrible horizontal aerial movement and floatiness.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
If the doesn't kill, Luigi will still be at a relatively high percent, and shouldn't be too hard to kill. You can play it safe with Nairs to knock him off the stage, and proceed to edgeguard. Puff is quite good at edgeguarding Luigi; she can either float out and hit Luigi during his Down B lag, or she can use Down-Smash to hit his Up-B. You can also just land another utilt -> rest/uair (depending on %) finisher. Remember that Puff's Utilt has the same range as Kirby's, and is not too hard to land. Pivot utilts are a great and underrated approach, especially if the Luigi likes to short hop fair or something.
OK, but if we're talking about the match-up overall, we need to think of all stages, not just Hyrule. And not be so adamant about holding on to old beliefs.
Two Utilt chain on Luigi at anything past 30% is death for him.
Utilt - If you're utilting at a percent where Luigi can DI in, recover from the hitstun, and Up-B before the next utilt (see: under 10%), you're doing it wrong.
Dair - Don't see how this can happen unless the Puff is dumb.
First, calm down. I love you like a brother, and you seem real broke up about this. Deep breaths.
Second, it isn't that I beat you badly or anything, it's that I beat you at all; I am obviously a LOT LOT LOT worse with weegee than you are with puff. Your (actually good) puff got beaten by my (roflmao bad) weegee.
The way I saw it was that you got a two stock lead, and then I started playing fr srs and camped hardcore until I could kill you with a BnB throw-throw-uair-uB tent combo. If you hadn't approached? Maybe I wouldn't have come back as easily, but the weejster still has hax advantage
IDK how good your link is, but my pikachu's about on level with my weegee and yeah, I kind of think a top-of-a-tier link could get within 1 stock of it on DL.
I thought it was pretty srs because you were talking a lot beforehand about how you were going to "prove" that the matchup wasn't terrible.
Seriouslies? Anytime. Ask me next time you can get on the server during my power hour.
ANYWAYS I don't have any better arguments for it than the hurr durr ones, I prefer to let matchup experience speak for itself.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
I was calm. Maybe the tone of my post was unintentionally angry, though. I am rarely actually angry. This goes for future posts, in case you guys every think I'm mad.
Well, maybe all the Luigis I've played in this match-up are bad or something. Somebody needs to wreck me in this match-up for me to be convinced.
I don't think I could take a decent Pikachu to one stock with Link on DL.
Based on our conversation in the livestream, we also need to do Link vs Kirby. Seriously, it's not that bad.
You can't just assume that the other player will do the stuff you want them to do, like "short hop fair". You also can't rely on the ability of a Puff to edgeguard either. I can just easily say: "Luigi can play it safe by camping and only approach when it's safe with a uair". One slip-up from a poor teleport nair is going to spell death.
And we also need to realise that Hyrule is probably the most played stage and is probably the stage that holds the most weight when determining match-ups. If Puff sucks against Luigi here, it's going to affect her match-up with him vastly.
Not in the middle or the tent of Hyrule. On top of that we have to understand the probability of hitting it. Yeah a jiggs grabbing a fox at 0% is going to spell death for the fox, but it's not going to happen often. Luigi shouldn't be getting hit by spaced utilts.
Not to answer for James here but it depends where the dair hitboxes are in relationship to luigi's hurtboxes. Occasionally only the tip of the hitboxes get onto Luigi's head allowing the Luigi to Di down easily to escape the dair and then hit an up-B at the end of the dair animation. With good Di this becomes more and more plausible.
Aiight let's get down to business
The chart in the OP isn't terrible. I'll kick things off by suggesting some changes to the MU's of my main:
Doug should have a 55 over fox, a 45 against Pika, and a 65/maybe a 70 against link. Perhaps a 35 vs kirby? Maybe not. Nevertheless, he's certainly significantly better against pika than against kirby on DL; I think everyone would agree wiht that. Other than that, I'm cool with Doug's MU's, but I expect some resistance from KINGSTAR visavis the Jigglypuff situation.
The chart in the OP isn't terrible. I'll kick things off by suggesting some changes to the MU's of my main:
Doug should have a 55 over fox, a 45 against Pika, and a 65/maybe a 70 against link. Perhaps a 35 vs kirby? Maybe not. Nevertheless, he's certainly significantly better against pika than against kirby on DL; I think everyone would agree wiht that. Other than that, I'm cool with Doug's MU's, but I expect some resistance from KINGSTAR visavis the Jigglypuff situation.
Maybe we should have a system where we talk about 1 character's match-ups at a time?
Anyway with Falcon's I think he should have an 80 on Link. Pretty much what BCow said for the rest. I'd push for a 60 on Fox though, not that it makes much difference.
Anyway with Falcon's I think he should have an 80 on Link. Pretty much what BCow said for the rest. I'd push for a 60 on Fox though, not that it makes much difference.
Like I said we should start with one stage, I think ciazas allso is right by starting with one character.
So pika dreamland. Its harder for pika to face kirby than fox on DL, so fox may have to drop a little. Falcon is pikas hardest opponent on DL and should be 55-45 in pikas favor. PIka vs link on DL is ridiculous. At least 75-25 but 80-20 imo. The rest looks okay, but pika should have a harder time vs mario than puff.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
We're going to do things one character at a time, starting with Pikachu on Dreamland.
And is Pikachu/Link really that bad on Dreamland? Well, if more people think so and give good reason for it, I'll adjust the colours.
Yes please. :3
Sounds good, done.
And is Pikachu/Link really that bad on Dreamland? Well, if more people think so and give good reason for it, I'll adjust the colours.
Well to start with, pika vs link is a really bad matchup, but on DL it just gets worse. Pikas speed and the small stage, makes it very hard for link to camp. And his horrible recovery makes it pretty much 1 grab 1 kill. It just shouts gimp all the way. At least 75-25.
I still dont feel fox too puff should all be 60-40 in pikas favor on DL. Kirby and maybe mario could be it. Fox, yoshi DK and puff could be 65-35 on DL. Its important to get the fact that pika has a harder time with kirby than fox on DL.