The New Debate Hall (Again)

[Crimson King]

Well, after looking around for a while, I've come to realize the Debate Hall has evolved much farther than its namesake. Because of this, I have decided two things: one, we are revitalizing and refocusing the room, and two, newer, better admissions.

1. Refocused Debate Hall - Debates, after only one round (sorry) of DWYP, are not what we have been posting in this room frequently. Instead we post mostly intelligent topics for discussion. Under the new DH, this will not only be ok, but encouraged. In fact, the term debate will pretty much only apply to DWYP in the future. Instead we will allow posting of intelligent topics and discussions (as we have), news articles as long as you add input, editorials, and even the occasional rant. This will enable Debaters to basically make topics on anything as long as they can provide intelligent conversation. No flaming and no spam will still be strictly regulated.

2. Better Admissions - I admit, when I decided to lock the Debate Hall once I took over, I never really planned a good admissions procedure. Essays made the most sense, but two things became evident over time: 1. people could easily fake the level the Debate Hall requires, and 2. newer members usually are too afraid to submit an essay in fear it may get rejected. The new admission procedure requires those desiring access to apply to both the Debaters Group AND the Temp Debaters group. Biweekly, I will let in the 5 first applicants by date. They will have a week in the room to post and make their case. Applicants must post one new topic. Also, they must post at least 6 times before the week is done. I will add a check-in/check-out thread. In the check-out thread, applicants need to link to all their posts for easy review. Following this week, We will allow another week either current members to vote in a topic or some admissions panel of 2 members and the room mods. This procedure will give all who apply a guaranteed shot at getting in, guarantee at least 5 new posts biweekly.

I will leave this topic open for any questions or comments. New admissions start June 1st. I will purge all current people registered as of tonight, so anyone registering tomorrow will be in the first wave. Good luck!

This is the last time I will address how to become a debater. I get far too many PMs daily of people asking how to join. This is the process that will work until it's felt we no longer need it. All you do is join the debaters group, and you are debater as long as you don't break our rules.

1. Click User CP on the main page:

2. Then scroll down and click Group Membrships:

3. Finally join the debaters group. I will add people at the end of the week:

And that's it. No more temporary status. I'll close that topic soon. No more PMs about this please.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

as long as they can provide intelligent conversation.

Probably the most important line in the entire post.

I will purge all current people registered as of tonight, so anyone registering tomorrow will be in the first wave.

I'm confused. All current ACTIVE debaters will purged? I would hate to see some of the finer debaters lose their posting permission and only get a chance to renew every two weeks. Am I missing something?

 

[lonejedi]

Yah that's gonna kinda suck, if we have to get new memberships again, for the third time for me at least. I hope he means already registered Temp Debaters.

 

[Crimson King]

My bad. I'll be purging all people who registered in the two User Groups. I'll have until the weekend to end DWYP so I can also clean out the Temp Debaters.

Clearer?

 

[KishPrime]

So there's officially no second round of the DWYP?

Also, bye.

 

[Crimson King]

I stepped down from DWYP for not doing a good enough job with setting up round two. I gave EE the charge, so whatever he wants.

I'll probably add all people who made it to round two as Debaters for being pretty patient. What do you think, Debaters?

 

[McCloud]

Crimson... I really really think that having such a rigid system is not beneficial to the status of the Debate Hall. That system is just far too intense in my opinion... people want to post and enjoy a debate but not if they have to go through 20 checkpoints just to get something posted.

I'm not advocating mass wanton in the DH. Just something easier and more user friendly toward people who might have an inclination toward debate.

I mean. There's barely 6 topics to post in as is. I'm sorry man, but this new process is just far too complicated. I know you're trying, but you have to ease up.

And as for those who have been in this DH under the Temporary Debaters group, I say let them in if they want it. Kish himself being a prime example of one who should have access.

 

[Pariah]

We should hold this whole new DH thing for a moment.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I like the idea of adding all who made it to round two. From what I read they did a great job.

I think this new process will work out. From what I get, it doesn't seem that complicated. They come in and debate with us, we offer our input as to whether we think they are worthy, they get added. I think the most complicated part is going to CK job of allowing the first five then keeping up with it. Give it a try.

 

[Crimson King]

It wasn't up for discussion as whether not this will go forward. It was just a head's up.

 

[Xsyven]

1. Refocused Debate Hall - Instead we post mostly intelligent topics for discussion. ... In fact, the term debate will pretty much only apply to DWYP in the future. Instead we will allow posting of intelligent topics and discussions (as we have), news articles as long as you add input, editorials, and even the occasional rant.

I love this. It'll definately get me to post more in here. Most of the time, I'd come late into a debate, and miss all the good stuff.

And since there's going to be more discussion, the new admissions shouldn't be too tough to pull off.

Good job, CK.

 

[Crimson King]

Just keep in mind, Xsyven (not saying you've done this, but you were the first name I saw), news articles are ok to be posted, but you must cite your source and give feedback on it. Rants can pretty much encompass anything, but need to be well organized, like an argumentative essay to avoid spam. Debates themselves have never really existed outside of DWYP, as I realized recently, so intelligent topics are allowed. Anything that's not considered higher up for discussion, still goes in the proom. We'll have to go along with it though for a while to say what's DH worthy and what not.

 

[Evil Eye]

Yeah, McCloud. I don't know where you're getting the "complicated" part from. I love debating, but I hate writing papers -- I associate it with school. And if I enjoyed school, I wouldn't be the devilishly social human being that I am.

I'm sure the paper is a turnoff to many potential debaters. I remember Eric and I had a long argument with a fellow named Ogh that made some good points about essay-writing being a slightly different animal.

This encourages more activity, fresh debates, and allows for more accurate judgment of one's ability to debate. It's more user-friendly, too. Less digging up citations... less pressure. Plus they get a taste of the Hall atmosphere, so you guys can be sure to show them how awesome it is. This will leave them salivating -- instead of bitter rejection, it will give them a reason to improve.

And it's, honestly, not that hard to link to a thread. After they've posted their response in a debate, the workload boils down to:

Rightclick, copy, click, click, scroll, rightclick, paste, click.

Then onwards to another debate, or they can call it a night/evening/what have you.

 

[McCloud]

I dunno. It seemed to me at first to be too constricting in the form of rulesets and guidelines, but after talking to CK it seems that it is the best alternative.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

I'll probably add all people who made it to round two as Debaters for being pretty patient. What do you think, Debaters?

That sounds like a great idea. I would love to be in the hall. I don't think this new system is too complicated, it is much better than having to write an essay. I was dreading the essay.

 

[Crimson King]

Well, we only have 3 applicants, for the new and improved DH as of now and really, I wanted to first round to be good. Any of the Temp Debaters what to take a run through it just for the sake of it? Sargent_Peach was going to be added regardless, so he wants he can run through it. if not, tomorrow I NEED all Temp debaters from DWYP to post in the DWYP topic AND apply for the Hall. If not by tomorrow evening, I'll be flushing you out so you'll have to be readded which will means you might have to go through admissions ( I am prone to forgetting who's who.)

 

[Gamer4Fire]

This sounds like an even greater departure from the Debate Hall of the past.

Originally, anyone who wished to post in the Debate Hall was allowed to. This room was specifically for the debate of ideas or opinions. And BBT and I were able to keep the peace by intimidation alone. We simply didn't tolerate idiocy, which caused the unintelligent to leave for more fertile fields.

I have to say that I don't really like this egression.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

CK, I don't mind at all going through the admissions process. It kinda sounds fun, much more attractive than writing an essay. Doesn't seem like "work" this time, but if you don't need me to do it, that fine too.

 

[lonejedi]

This sounds like an even greater departure from the Debate Hall of the past.

Originally, anyone who wished to post in the Debate Hall was allowed to. This room was specifically for the debate of ideas or opinions. And BBT and I were able to keep the peace by intimidation alone. We simply didn't tolerate idiocy, which caused the unintelligent to leave for more fertile fields.

I have to say that I don't really like this egression.

I would have to disagree, as much as you're going to get a lot of solid debaters, by just letting everyone in, you are still going to have alot of people just going in there and posting random crap. Especially with Brawl coming, we're going to get an overflow of immature kids, and this room would just turn into Pool Room V2. This is an easy set up, since all you have to do is post to get in, I dont see why it would be any different from making it an open room, other than the people posting are all intelligent, and have some skill at debating/discussing.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Well, this way we may get a debater who is worth it.

If the person is not worthy their lives will be ruined for even trying to post in here. I will drive to their house and steal their cash. I would go into their sisters room and take her dairy to post on the net (I'll take some pictures too).

But really, if anything it will add some entertainment in here. Relax, it will be CK headache anyway right?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I understand the current atmosphere. This was caused since Melee brought along a lot of miscreants. However, I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt and be able to ban them from this room specifically if we find that they are unworthy of being here.

I can always move peoples, "lol I is a d3b@t3r ROFLCOPTER" topics to the Pool Room or Rubbish Bin. That is part of the job description so I don't mind. But unilaterally not allowing people in here in the first place because they have yet to prove themselves seems a little wrong to me. You should be allowed to prove that you don't belong, not the other way around.

 

[Crimson King]

That's why you don't have the power to add or remove people.

CK, I don't mind at all going through the admissions process. It kinda sounds fun, much more attractive than writing an essay. Doesn't seem like "work" this time, but if you don't need me to do it, that fine too.

If you, or any other DWYPer wishes to join in on this, when you request a reply to the DH (all Temp debaters have to), put something about wanting to go through admissions, and I'll PM you as soon as I can to reapply to Temp Debaters. It's up for anyone. I am delaying the time we add people until next Sunday as A. not many signed up, B. I still have all those DWYPers to add to the room/remove from the Temp Debater group, and C. I just feel like it.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

CK- ok, sounds good to me.

Gamer- It is a lot more work for CK to do it the way you described. He would be banning a lot of people from this hall, because there are a lot of immature people in this forum. He would spend more time warning/banning people, and he would not have any time to actually participate. If people really want in, they will just post a topic. Thats what they would do if they could get in without an admissions process anyway, right?

Plus, this gives the debate hall the Marines thing, you know; the few, the proud, the debate hall.

 

[Evil Eye]

Nobody ever says "Poor EE" about workload. It's always CK this, Scav that.

Anyway, I fail to see how this is farther off of the old Hall. First off, the old Hall was amok with stupidity. One stupid post is more than I can tolerate in this room. Second, it's not as easy as flashing your brass and a few insults to get rid of somebody these days.

Third, this is significantly closer than essays. Face it, essays suck, but the idea was always about them proving themselves. Digging in and showing that they love disagreeing and have the smarts to back it up. They still prove themselves this way, but without the tiresome essay. It's just like having it open, but there's a few speed bumps before you're in for good.

I seem to remember about sixteen months ago when you were telling us about how we were going to kill the Debate Hall by closing it. It's as active as it ever was, and the mean intelligence is considerably higher. You were wrong then. History likes to repeat itself -- you're wrong now.

-I

 

[Zephyr]

Hm...looks like Evil Eye needs a hug.

Any volunteers? =P

Part of the reason I never applied for the Debate Hall before the tournament was because of that essay - my workload at school is already large enough. Having a tournament to add some flair to the experience encouraged me to come out of my intellectual shell rather effectively, as some of you noticed.

This new system looks very effective on paper, though. I can't wait to see it in action. Gives the Debate Hall members something to do during an idle period. =D

~ Zephyr

 

[Gamer4Fire]

But the Debate Hall is dead. Only one debate has been replied to and that was yesterday. The next, five days ago. Although I will agree that the average intelligence has increased it has been at the expense of debate.

Even naive, easily defeatable debate would be preferable. Since then the ignorant may be allowed to learn something. We've already established that the average Debate Hall participant currently is already intelligent, what about those peeps wanting to learn something new.

And if Crimson King has so much on his plate, then give me the power to punt people from this room and complete my modship of the Debate Hall!

 

[lonejedi]

But the Debate Hall is dead. Only one debate has been replied to and that was yesterday. The next, five days ago. Although I will agree that the average intelligence has increased it has been at the expense of debate.

Even naive, easily defeatable debate would be preferable. Since then the ignorant may be allowed to learn something. We've already established that the average Debate Hall participant currently is already intelligent, what about those peeps wanting to learn something new.

And if Crimson King has so much on his plate, then give me the power to punt people from this room and complete my modship of the Debate Hall!

I would disagree with all of the following you just posted, I think we are the opposite from dead. Yes, there have been few posts in the thread you are looking at, I view this thread in itself as a debate, there are opposing arguments, are and both arguments are giving their side, thus resulting in an intelligent debate.

Of course it's going to be a bit on the down side, since we just launced the new system a couple days ago, but give it time. Once we get a steady amount of debaters applying, this place will be jumping with activity, intelligent activity. DWYP will be up and running again, which will garner alot of people to join the DH, from just reading debates from the tourney.

You can't denounce something until you give it a try, especially when the idea you propose didn't fare so well when it was in commission

 

[Sargent_Peach]

I somewhat agree with you Gamer. I would prefer a naive, easily defeatable debate to none at all. Who doesn't like "crushing" ignorant people with fact and logic, but the "ignorant" you speak of will never learn anything. I can think of a few already, they are biased, and it is impossible to change their minds. People like that would ruin the hall, as they tried to do with DWYP.

I don't have much say with giving you any power, thats up to CK.

I don't think the hall is dead, I think it could be revamped, but isn't that was CK and EE are trying to do with the new admissions and DWYP?

 

[Crimson King]

And if Crimson King has so much on his plate, then give me the power to punt people from this room and complete my modship of the Debate Hall!

First off, you agreed to stay out of the way during our changes. Second, no.

Also, remember now all of you can post topics on pretty much anything intelligent/rants/debate oriented, so go!

 

[Gamer4Fire]

When did I agree not to voice my opinion about the changes? I don't recall that ever happening.

 

[Crimson King]

Nothing was here...

 

[Mediocre]

So, we've got a power struggle going on here.

Just for your information, G4F, the "Golden Days" of the debate hall ended a long time ago. When I first came in years ago (BBT and Crono were modding at the time), the DH wasn't much more active than it is now, and it was a hell of a lot less intelligent.

I'll admit, I wasn't around during your golden age, but you've got to realize that a lot has changed in the forums as a whole. It's no longer a place where you can simply tell people they're stupid and expect them to leave, because there are simply too many stupid people (not to mention that some of them have amazingly thick skins).

If you don't boot anybody, you'll get people like Tera who'll just repeat the same points over and over and never leave.

Not that I'm against the DH being more open. I admit, it's been pretty dead around here lately, and I've often wished that we'd get more new faces, even if they weren't the most intelligent or best debaters.

But you seem to think that the way to go about changing things is by trying to overpower the current DH mods, and I think that's a stupid and headstrong way to go about it. I don't know if you realize it, but while you may technically have seniority (both as a mod and as a member), that seniority doesn't mean much.

You came back, and soon after you came back (what, a week? two?), you wind up a mod. But to me, that authority seems rather hollow. The other mods gave you the mod position, not the DH members. For the most part, the members of the current DH don't even know who you are.

So before you try to instigate some kind of sort of Debate Hall internet coup, you might want to consider your position. You might have the respect of the mods, but you have yet to earn the respect of the members.

Moreover, there's the issue of whether you'll still be here in a year. You just came back a month or two ago; I'm not confident that you'll stick around for the long haul. If you gain control over the DH and then you leave a few months later, it'll do more harm than good.

Finally, I ought to say that I don't dislike you. I know that this post comes off as an attack, but it's an attack against the takeover that you seem to be attempting, not an attack against you personally. I'll admit that you're not my favorite member, but neither are you someone I hate. You may well be an excellent mod - it certainly seems within your capabilities.

But if you want to be in charge of the Debate Hall, you ought to earn it, and you haven't.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Lonejedi already said it, this is a debate. I am not trying to take over; I lack the authority and the ability (Crimson King and Evil Eye are SMods, I'm not). But that doesn't mean I have to enjoy the direction that the current changes are taking us.

There is nothing more that I'd like than the return of the "golden days" of the Smash Boards Debate Hall. I know this isn't going to happen, we were closer knit and and the members were more self conscious than today. We had those people that were obstinate but we also had members that read what someone would write and go, "I never thought of it like that." It was always delightful to watch people learn something.

The Debate Hall will continue to evolve and I will come along for the ride, as it were. And although I do not particularly care for these currents of change I will reserve final judgment till I see the fruits of these endeavors. If you can show me a better way to do something I will gladly change. I'll wait and see if these changes are, in the end, for the best.

 

[Crimson King]

The Debate Hall only involves debating really in DWYP. In the old Debate Hall, people actually argued, now we just get people who agree constantly and left to more intellectual discussions. Hence the new direction of the Debate Hall. We will be less focused on arguing and more focused on sharing opinions and ideas intelligently. Sure, I'd love for the debating to keep up, but that seems to only work well with DWYP.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

But DWYP is so narrow. Only allowing two people to debate at a time without any feedback from anyone else who might know something, that sounds so rigid.

 

[Sargent_Peach]

I just want to say, I love being able to talk intelligently with people (G4F) who are open minded. It is amazing how much more fun it actually is.

I have a few ideas for some topics, that I hope will spark some interesting conversation, and that havn't been discussed already.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I'll admit, I'm not an active member of the Debate Hall, only recently participating because of the DWYP, so the new standards are definitely attracting me to post more. In fact, I believe I'll make a thread soon after I dig up some information.

I want to start a debate about the 2008 Presidential Election BUT, politics are not my strong suit... I'll dig up some info. and then make it unless someone else would like to get it started.

The new admissions criteria seems more than fair and will also spark excellent growth in debate hall activity.

@G4F: According to you, you would like for anybody to offer their opinion regardless if they are ignorant so that they may learn something and so that there may be activity. This new system offers that.

Anybody is allowed to come in, make a thread, and post their opinion before being admitted so it is essentially the same as an "everyone is welcome" approach. But, like Mediocre stated, some members shouldn't be allowed to join.

Members filled with stubborn ignorance or arrogance will never sway their opinion or bias on a matter despite the mountains of logical responses they may recieve. I believe these kinds of members should be filtered from the Debate Hall because they contribute nothing to the debate hall, increase the risk of flaming and spamming, and don't learn anything because they refuse to acknowledge fact as it is.

By implementing this new system, the Debate Hall can enjoy a more comfortable environment with more intelligence and still retain the "everyone is welcome" approach while keeping arrogant members out.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I actually like the idea of probationary members, it allows us to weed out the contemptuous and obstinate. That change is definitely better than the older essay approach. But is DWYP going to be more open or remain one on one? Or are we still allowed to hold open debates in the regular hall?

 

[Crimson King]

DWYP will remain one on one but will be much more streamlined, which I'll explain once round two starts a little later.

Yes, Debates are still allowed and encouraged in the Hall. I just want to make it crystal clear that intellectual conversations are perfectly allowed and even the occasional rant. I want the new Hall to be a room of just intelligent conversations.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Well, it seems as though this new Debate Hall satisfies the debaters so I guess I'll add my suggestion.

Like I said in my last post, I want to start a debate about the 2008 Presidential Election but this kind of debate is more than a single debate and usually sparks several debates on a range of subjects.

So I was thinking, how about we turn the Presidential Debate into a special event of sorts? No prizes have to be given out and the judges and organizers of the DWYP don't have to set it up. Instead, a few members can volunteer their time towards the event.

Or, we could wait for the DWYP to end and then hold the event. It could be set up in the same sense as an actual Presidential Run. I only have the jeist of the plan thought out but I can come up with several ideas very quickly along with other members in helping to brainstorm.

I don't know... Since I don't have it fully thought out, the idea might not sound too good but once we get most of it planned, it could turn out to be a very interesting and enjoyable event.