The Move Tier Fad: Ness Style~

[Crystanium]

He is left open, but not vulnerable.

That assertion is contradictory. If someone is left open, they are vulnerable. Ness can't do anything in this state, other than attempt to hit his opponent with PK Thunder, or stop it by making it touch a surface. He might attempt to use PK Jibaku, but that can be easily seen. In certain situations, you may be able to land PK Jibaku. I've had my share.

There are few characters who can hit him out of PKT (I hate arguing against people who main those characters because it's generally harder to convince them), yet he still has options. He can retreat, floorblast, or just hit the opponent with PKT. It is arguably the best projectile in the game due to the fact that it's under the player's control. And no, PKT cannot be shielded if used correctly, but I won't dwell too much on that.

Pit can use Palutena's Arrow. Sheik can use her Needles. Zelda can use Din's Fire. Link and Toon Link can use their arrows. Samus' fully charged Charge Shot eats through PK Thunder and continues flying the direction from which it was shot. What is more, PK Thunder doesn't have a very long life-span. PK Thunder is best used from a distance, and any attempt to use it close is punishable. To say that PK Thunder cannot be shielded if used correctly is only an assertion. I can say that it can be shielded, unless it's not shielded correctly.

Also, PK Thunder is not the best projectile in the game. Palutena's Arrow is the best projectile in the game.

Except that PK Flash doesn't lead to its killing move by itself. PKT does. If PKT is outprioritized, it's the players fault because the player is in control of the move. If it's absorbed or reflected, it's generally the player's fault also for the same reason. Already said above that it can't be shielded. It has enough speed. The problem lies in the prediction of the player. If the player is poor in predicting the opponent, then no it will not follow the opponent fast enough.

I'm not buying this. If someone like Fox or Wolf bring up their Reflector, then Ness cannot hit them with PK Thunder. You can't blame the player on this. PK Thunder isn't difficult to see coming. While Fox or Wolf won't be moving, neither will Ness, and when he decides to start up PK Thunder again, his opponent will move forward and then use his Reflector against PK Thunder again or just f-smash. The speed of PK Thunder is average. It's not the fastest projectile in the game.

The same "techs" you use for Melee's PKT can also used for Brawl's PKT. They may not act the same, but are similar enough to be used in the same way. Tailwhipping is obvious, as well as Swell Surprise. Floorblasting is also something from Melee (it was harder to do). Heaven's Descent was a concept that originated in Melee also (horrible idea IMO, surprised that it worked ). SAM (Surface to Air) PKT can be done. Inverse PKT, which is going in the same direction as throwing out PKT, can be used for mixup recovery with PKT in both games. Finally, PKT2 False Edgeguard was to punish on-stage landing as well.

What are Swell Surprise, Floorblasting, Heaven's Descent, and Surface to Air? What is PK Jibaku False Edge-Guard? You'll have to convince everyone on why you think PK Thunder deserves to be higher.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that PK Thunder should be mid-tier. xoxokev also thinks that. No one gives any convincing reasons why PK Thunder should be top-tier, let alone high-tier.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

PKT should be on everyone's top :/

 

[Gaussis]

That assertion is contradictory. If someone is left open, they are vulnerable. Ness can't do anything in this state, other than attempt to hit his opponent with PK Thunder, or stop it by making it touch a surface. He might attempt to use PK Jibaku, but that can be easily seen. In certain situations, you may be able to land PK Jibaku. I've had my share.

Pit can use Palutena's Arrow. Sheik can use her Needles. Zelda can use Din's Fire. Link and Toon Link can use their arrows. Samus' fully charged Charge Shot eats through PK Thunder and continues flying the direction from which it was shot. What is more, PK Thunder doesn't have a very long life-span. PK Thunder is best used from a distance, and any attempt to use it close is punishable. To say that PK Thunder cannot be shielded if used correctly is only an assertion. I can say that it can be shielded, unless it's not shielded correctly.

Also, PK Thunder is not the best projectile in the game. Palutena's Arrow is the best projectile in the game.

I should elaborate. He is left open to long range attacks, but not vulnerable to anything else. You mentioned projectiles, many of which work only on flat surfaces/on level with Ness. PKT is best used when your opponent cannot move freely. Long-range can be avoided. And no, it can't be shielded. The "used correctly" really is dependant on the player, but generally skimming their shield will negate the shield's protection for the most part. The opponent can do very little.

Also no, Palutena's Arrow is far from it. You may be able to combo with them, kill with them, even mindgame with them, but they really have nothing more to them once opponents catch on. All three rely on the opponent's lack of forsight. Falco's laser is much more candid for best projectile. And PKT of course.

I'm not buying this. If someone like Fox or Wolf bring up their Reflector, then Ness cannot hit them with PK Thunder. You can't blame the player on this. PK Thunder isn't difficult to see coming. While Fox or Wolf won't be moving, neither will Ness, and when he decides to start up PK Thunder again, his opponent will move forward and then use his Reflector against PK Thunder again or just f-smash. The speed of PK Thunder is average. It's not the fastest projectile in the game.

I did say generally. It is the player's fault if they know they are directing PKT into said characters and know they can turn it to avoid reflection. It isn't the player's fault if the characters with reflectors move in the path of PKT and the player is unable to direct it fast enough to avoid the reflect. Of course, these are situational, hence the reason I said generally.

Besides, spacies' reflectors are baited to be hit with PKT2. Mario's cape is baited for a hit with the head. Pit's doesn't cover him completely, so it has blind spots where the player can direct PKT. No reflector or absorbing move is completely safe against the projectile.

Not being the fastest projectile in the game is subjective. Fast projectiles do give the opponent less time to react. However, it isn't the end-all because there are other factors to consider. Pit's arrows are very fast. However, they don't come back onto the stage for a few seconds, despite being quick. The opponent has enough time to react to the arrows as they come back. They do hurt the first time around though, and only if they use it once. For Falco's laser, they generally used SHDL (shorthop double laser) to keep the opponent from approaching while he gets closer. The lasers are fast, but that isn't the only thing that makes them good. It's the stun property and the fact that he does two in one shorthop and continues to do this again while approaching that makes it good. Speed doesn't make up the projectile.

What are Swell Surprise, Floorblasting, Heaven's Descent, and Surface to Air? What is PK Jibaku False Edge-Guard? You'll have to convince everyone on why you think PK Thunder deserves to be higher.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that PK Thunder should be mid-tier. xoxokev also thinks that. No one gives any convincing reasons why PK Thunder should be top-tier, let alone high-tier.

They are in EB360's guide for those of you who want to take a more detailed look. I'll summarize each of them.

Swell surprise is basically using the tail of PKT to set up PKT2.

Floorblasting is hitting yourself on the head so as to go to the lying down animation. From there, you can roll, get-up, or the get-up attack (flexkick). It's what Nesses do when they can't use PKT2, but they can't afford to be in lag when PKT ends.

Heaven's Descent is using PKT to cover up the mild blindspot Ness has on his Dair. It is basically a PKT mindgame in the air. It is also used to land laglessly or try a PKT2 on the opponent. There are many uses in it, but it is situational at best.

Surface to Air Missile PKT is what the name implies: hitting yourself on the ground so as to PKT2 to the air. Easiest to do at the edge of the stage or on a platform. I myself have devised a way (situational in a real match) to do it consistently on a flat surface.

Inverse PKT is also what it implies (although for some reason, I would call it Reverse PKT, but it doesn't sound right). Normally, this is used to mixup PKT recovery, but it can be used for mindgames. For example, there is a way to set this up on the ground as well. In fact, it is the same figure I use for the SAM PKT, just different timing.

Finally PKT2 False Edgeguard is the reason why not to land on stage. It is mindgaming the opponent so as to force them to land onstage. This would have to be done precisely so as to go into PKT2 while the opponent is landing (SAM PKT2 helps here). They land onstage and Ness punishes with PKT2. In Melee, it was somewhat easier to set up (due to harder-to-sweetspot ledges), but it kills better in Brawl. It is still situation as h311, though.

Ness could set up for something that can be considered a PKT2 FE. It involves the ledge and the opponent's invincibility. Ness uses PKT right under them, tailwhips the opponent and hits with PKT2. Still situational, but a much easier way to set up one. Lol, it can also fall into the category of swell surprise.

I hope this is enough to convince any doubters. There's more but there will always be skeptism. For that, I have nothing to say other than to try the projectile yourself.

 

[Arcade]

Someone on the Ness boards arguing that PK Thunder is mediocre? I feel like I just found Bigfoot.

 

[Ref]

Okay I think I can end this dispute in no particular orders in the tiers I present the move tier list:

TOP tier:
Up throw
F throw
D throw
B throw
D air
F air
N air
B air
U air
U smash
F smash
D smash
f tilt
up tilt
d tilt
Jab
PK Flash
PK thunder
PK fire
PSI magnet
Grab
Grab release
Grab pummel
Idle animation
Up taunt
Down taunt
Side taunt
Shield
Air dodge
Spot dodge
Roll
Jump
Double jump

High tier

Mid tier

Low tier

Bottom Tier

There is no order with in tiers.

 

[Neon Ness]

Ref wins.

Oh, but you left out Idle Animation. Needs to be added as well.

 

[Ref]

I'll fix that now.

 

[Crystanium]

I should elaborate. He is left open to long range attacks, but not vulnerable to anything else.

And might I add mid-range attacks as well? Z-air cuts through PK Thunder and can hit Ness.

You mentioned projectiles, many of which work only on flat surfaces/on level with Ness. PKT is best used when your opponent cannot move freely.

Like in the air, which xoxokev brought up. At best, PK Thunder is useful to juggle Ness' opponents.

Long-range can be avoided. And no, it can't be shielded. The "used correctly" really is dependant on the player, but generally skimming their shield will negate the shield's protection for the most part. The opponent can do very little.

Long-range can be avoided? Would you like to explain that one for me?

And yes, PK Thunder can be shielded. It doesn't transcend any other attack. It's not like Lucas' PK Thunder. You're giving PK Thunder more credit than it deserves.

Also no, Palutena's Arrow is far from it. You may be able to combo with them, kill with them, even mindgame with them, but they really have nothing more to them once opponents catch on. All three rely on the opponent's lack of forsight. Falco's laser is much more candid for best projectile. And PKT of course.

I can understand Falco's Blaster, but stop kidding yourself, Gaussis. PK Thunder isn't great. Do you hear anyone complain about a spammy Falco or Ness? I sure don't.

Besides, spacies' reflectors are baited to be hit with PKT2.

Don't kid yourself. Only a fool would dare to use PK Thunder so close. PK Thunder is meant to hit opponents from a distance.

Mario's cape is baited for a hit with the head. Pit's doesn't cover him completely, so it has blind spots where the player can direct PKT. No reflector or absorbing move is completely safe against the projectile.

I don't think you understand. If Ness uses PK Thunder, Mario might use his Cape. Then again, he might also use his Fireballs to cancel Ness' attack. And why on earth would Pit use his Mirror Shield when he can just fire Palutena's Arrow at Ness to stop him? If anything, Pit's best choice would to use his Mirror Shield if Ness used PK Jibaku.

Not being the fastest projectile in the game is subjective. Fast projectiles do give the opponent less time to react. However, it isn't the end-all because there are other factors to consider. Pit's arrows are very fast. However, they don't come back onto the stage for a few seconds, despite being quick.

I'll just pretend you didn't say that about Palutena's Arrow. Who said anything about Arrow Looping? We're talking about Ness' PK Thunder. Why would anyone Arrow Loop when they could just go in for the kill, so to speak? Speed matters, because, like you said, it gives the opponent less time to react.

The opponent has enough time to react to the arrows as they come back.

Who said anything about Arrow Looping?

It's the stun property and the fact that he does two in one shorthop and continues to do this again while approaching that makes it good. Speed doesn't make up the projectile.

Except, it does. The faster you can fire projectile, the more pressure you place on your opponent. PK Thunder can't do this. And you might want to rethink the hitstun when comparing Falco's Blaster and Palutena's Arrow. The last time I checked, ShadowLink84 noted that Palutena's Arrow has more hitstun than Falco's Blaster. Oh, and when I tested this out, Palutena's Arrow flies faster than Falco's Blaster. Falco can just shoot more. In either case, both Pit and Falco have quick projectile to interrupt Ness when he is using PK Thunder.

I hope this is enough to convince any doubters. There's more but there will always be skeptism. For that, I have nothing to say other than to try the projectile yourself.

I'm still not convinced. Mentioning different things you can do with a certain attack doesn't give a whole lot about its usefulness, not in any more ways than using Arrow Loop. There is no difference in damage, hitstun, knock-back, &c.

Someone on the Ness boards arguing that PK Thunder is mediocre? I feel like I just found Bigfoot.

This is a thread for ranking Ness' attacks. Don't be silly.

 

[Gaussis]

And might I add mid-range attacks as well? Z-air cuts through PK Thunder and can hit Ness.

I tend to categorize moves like those in the long-range department. Mind me.

Like in the air, which xoxokev brought up. At best, PK Thunder is useful to juggle Ness' opponents.

At best, PKT->PKT2 for a kill. Juggling is good, but it doesn't really work on opponents that can avoided.

Long-range can be avoided? Would you like to explain that one for me?

And yes, PK Thunder can be shielded. It doesn't transcend any other attack. It's not like Lucas' PK Thunder. You're giving PK Thunder more credit than it deserves.

You yourself mentioned that PKT is not fast. At long ranges, the opponent can disrupt either Ness or PKT easily (unless Ness is on a platform). Opponents are too safe at long ranges.

Skimming or scraping the shield's edge with PKT makes it so that the head goes through the shield while the tail hits the shield. I assume the opponent is in shield hitstun, so they cannot do anything to lower the shield (need to check back on that). Larger characters tend to be shieldpoked a bit after this happens. Circling PKT towards the opponent will most likely shieldpoke unless the character has a large shield size to character size ratio. PKT cannot be shielded.

Lucas's can do the same thing as mentioned above, but his serves a different purpose.

I can understand Falco's Blaster, but stop kidding yourself, Gaussis. PK Thunder isn't great. Do you hear anyone complain about a spammy Falco or Ness? I sure don't.

Complaints are made by people who don't take their time to learn the moves.

Don't kid yourself. Only a fool would dare to use PK Thunder so close. PK Thunder is meant to hit opponents from a distance.

With shieldpoking properties, a tail that stuns characters, and a powerful, yet situational followup, I would use it close. I tend to use it when the character has an apparent blindspot and I can take advantage of it. I don't use it against approaches, if that's what you are thinking.

Far away, it does very little.

I don't think you understand. If Ness uses PK Thunder, Mario might use his Cape. Then again, he might also use his Fireballs to cancel Ness' attack. And why on earth would Pit use his Mirror Shield when he can just fire Palutena's Arrow at Ness to stop him? If anything, Pit's best choice would to use his Mirror Shield if Ness used PK Jibaku.

Again, it's about being safe with the projectile. Against the spacies, they won't use their lasers when you are close enough already. Same with any other character using their projectile. Mario is definitely safe up close with either Cape or Fireball. However, I wouldn't say the same thing about say Fox for example. If he uses his reflector, and I direct PKT away from him, that can put him in a dangerous situation if Ness can PKT2 towards Fox. The tail will lock him in his reflector, similar to him being tailwhipped. It's knowing when to use your projectile and how it works.

Except, it does. The faster you can fire projectile, the more pressure you place on your opponent. PK Thunder can't do this. And you might want to rethink the hitstun when comparing Falco's Blaster and Palutena's Arrow. The last time I checked, ShadowLink84 noted that Palutena's Arrow has more hitstun than Falco's Blaster. Oh, and when I tested this out, Palutena's Arrow flies faster than Falco's Blaster. Falco can just shoot more. In either case, both Pit and Falco have quick projectile to interrupt Ness when he is using PK Thunder.

Just because Ness can't launch many PKTs, that degrades its function as a projectile? PKT pressures the opponent its own way. It skims shields enough to shieldpoke some characters, the projectile is under the player's control for around 2.7 seconds (yes I timed it ) so you have that much time to pressure the opponent, and the tail can defend from many approaches. It isn't your conventional projectile. That is what makes it so special.

Ness can be interrupted, and this is true for any character that can hit Ness during PKT. But again, Ness will exploit the character's inability to defend from the projectile and use PKT at that time. This is what every character does with their projectile. However, Ness's can be controlled to do practically anything, severely hinders the opponent's options, and can actually lead to a kill.

I'm still not convinced. Mentioning different things you can do with a certain attack doesn't give a whole lot about its usefulness, not in any more ways than using Arrow Loop. There is no difference in damage, hitstun, knock-back, &c.

Well no. It's using the projectile's properties that matters.

@Ref: Ness is funny for putting all of his attacks in Top Tier .

 

[Crystanium]

At best, PKT->PKT2 for a kill. Juggling is good, but it doesn't really work on opponents that can avoided.

Which characters can avoid PK Thunder while in the air, besides characters with the ability to absorb or reflect PK Thunder?

You yourself mentioned that PKT is not fast. At long ranges, the opponent can disrupt either Ness or PKT easily (unless Ness is on a platform). Opponents are too safe at long ranges.

You were vague on what you said. To quote you,

Long-range can be avoided. And no, it can't be shielded.

Skimming or scraping the shield's edge with PKT makes it so that the head goes through the shield while the tail hits the shield. I assume the opponent is in shield hitstun, so they cannot do anything to lower the shield (need to check back on that). Larger characters tend to be shieldpoked a bit after this happens. Circling PKT towards the opponent will most likely shieldpoke unless the character has a large shield size to character size ratio. PKT cannot be shielded.

I haven't seen any Ness player I've played against attempt to do this in any match. Even so, why should this make PK Thunder higher than mid-tier?

Just because Ness can't launch many PKTs, that degrades its function as a projectile? PKT pressures the opponent its own way. It skims shields enough to shieldpoke some characters, the projectile is under the player's control for around 2.7 seconds (yes I timed it ) so you have that much time to pressure the opponent, and the tail can defend from many approaches. It isn't your conventional projectile. That is what makes it so special.

Neither you, nor your opponent will be moving anywhere, then. Tell me why this should put PK Thunder in high-tier?

Ness can be interrupted, and this is true for any character that can hit Ness during PKT. But again, Ness will exploit the character's inability to defend from the projectile and use PKT at that time. This is what every character does with their projectile. However, Ness's can be controlled to do practically anything, severely hinders the opponent's options, and can actually lead to a kill.

Except, unlike other characters with projectile, Ness can't move forward while using PK Thunder. He's in a state of immobility.

 

[xoxokev]

so many quotes. ahhhhhhh

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A Samus main is arguing that Ness' best move is his most average?
Pfff.

 

[Crystanium]

A Samus main is arguing that Ness' best move is his most average?
Pfff.

I haven't seen anyone give any reason why PK Thunder is Ness' best attack.

And don't start making a special pleading, just because I main Samus. Or maybe you didn't read that I have played against a number of Ness players, and my brother mains Ness?

 

[xoxokev]

IMO: PK Thunder isn't Ness' best attack...

again, IMO, Ness' best attack is his dair - on AND off stage

EDIT: Also, in defense of PKT... Floorblasting and False edge guard ARE actually useful... however, swell surprise, heaven's decent, and inverse PKT are just too situational for my taste...

 

[CELTiiC]

IMO: PK Thunder isn't Ness' best attack...

again, IMO, Ness' best attack is his dair - on AND off stage

Finally someone who agrees with me that D-Air is Ness' best move. I love to use that move, and it's hilarious to spike people ^_^

 

[Crystanium]

Finally someone who agrees with me that D-Air is Ness' best move. I love to use that move, and it's hilarious to spike people ^_^

It's good against people who like to roll a lot, too. Just be sure to not land in a way that will cause you to be shield-grabbed.

 

[Neon Ness]

EDIT: Also, in defense of PKT... Floorblasting and False edge guard ARE actually useful... however, swell surprise, heaven's decent, and inverse PKT are just too situational for my taste...

Whoa whoa whoa, what's Heaven's Descent?

 

[xoxokev]

I looked it up on EB360's guide. I guess its when you're being juggled in the air, you use PKT to basically hit your opponent... or "mindgame" them and use PKT2

 

[CELTiiC]

It's good against people who like to roll a lot, too. Just be sure to not land in a way that will cause you to be shield-grabbed.

Yeah, I've figured that out the hard way. <_< ;

 

[thesage]

From: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=43646 (just to show what others think)

Mine:

Top
B-throw
I already sorta explained this. This is Ness most reliable move. Nobody lives against him past 140. I can't tell you how many times I've lived to higher percents than my opponents (and longer) simply because it's easy to avoid kill moves with Ness. People, when landing kill moves, are generally riskier, letting Ness land it hits. A lot of matches tend to be me getting up to 100 percent, then taking 20 more damage while I kill my opponent, then get killed after dealing 10 damage X 3. B-throw just helps to this by limiting people on how long they live. In some matchups it's really helpful (GaW) while others not as much (ROB)

Nair, Bair, Fair
I couldn't really separate them since they are all really good. Nair is a quick gtfo attack that has a long lasting hitbox, little lag, and (wtf) combos. You can also double aerial shuffle it with nair and fair really easily.

Bair is a good kill move but in matches where the opponent is light you can use it to rack up damage and rely on b-throw for the kill. It has surprising amounts of range and can hit people hanging on the edge. It also has little lag.

Fair has range and can combo somewhat. It helps in a defensive playstyle and along with das and nair you can approach with it. More startup lag than nair which kinda hurts it, but landing lag is nonexistant. Can also sheildpoke or simply whittle down sheilds ala GaW bair sometimes. Helps with recovering as well.

Upper
Pk Thunder
Everybody knows it's potential uses. On some cp's it's a great move and it shoots up several levels (Norfair esp). Remember to be smart while using this. I can lead to a lot of stuff but if your dumb with it your just giving up winning.

Dair
Leads into jab locks, lots of range, and it's sourspot is the most powerful aerial in terms of knockback (weird right?). It also is a spike which is obviously a good thing. In my opinion it's where the potential in Ness lies. Early kos is always a good thing, we just need to find a way to set them up (grab release perhaps?).

Jab
Gets people away from Ness and punishes slow startup moves. Sheilddrop => jab is a good alternate to sheildgrab. Jab locks which lead into d-tilt locks which lead into bats are good too. Fair to jab works (as dog latin showed very nicely in his vid and I have used this for some time).

U-smash
A lot of people will disagree with me here. I dunno sometime I just run forward and use u-smash and slide some when people try to approach me in the air. Doesn't work well against disjointed attacks but basically shuts down most aerial approaches. It can also sheildstab and stage spike (which I've actually managed to pull off in a mm). Standing still and doing u-smash is pretty useless but running around with it is helpful. I'm also figuring out if it's a good juggler or not. It can also edgeguard some recoveries but dropping the yoyo off the ledge.

Running Attack (it makes certain matchups for me >_> )
It doesn't have that much startup lag and it can't be cc'd anymore ^_^. It makes some matchups and can be used to punish ground attacks. It pops people up into the air which is nice. To bad it's range was nerfed. Don't spam this move though cuz you're easily punished.

Uair
The return of melee kirby's uair. It has a lot of killing power with an awkward hitbox and startup lag. I've been getting better at landing these recently. At higher percents it's probably easier to just uair somebody than try a pkt2 mindgame if they're knocked into the air. Otherwise don't use it since you want it as a kill move.

U-tilt
Look at the hitbox. It prevents some characters from approaching with their aerials. I wish it had more horiztal range on the ground. Did I mention it can juggle?

Mid

pk fire
Situational. I'm still trying out this move but in the
matchups where Ness really needs it (MK, Marth) it's completely useless
cuz they can easily punish you for it. A lot of people will disagree
with me on this probably.

F-throw
Basically sets people up for pkt. Does the same amout of damage as b-throw. Bonus points for disco.

F-tilt
lots of priority and combos into fair and fair can combo into it. Another sheildrop option besides fair. Needs more range.

Get up from ground attack (this thing has a crapload of range).
People will probably be wtf'ing for this one but it's a really good move. It has lots of range and Ness can set himself up for this by pkt'ing into the ground. I've actually used this to edgeguard once with funny results. I want to explore this move more though.

Bat
It's a shame that it has gotten so much startup lag. Dash boosting helps a lot with this move. It does tons of damage as well. I suggest not saving this as a kill move if you have a chance to use it. It does win for being the end of a jab/d-tilt lock if you have good timing. It is pretty annoying when you mess up a das and this comes out instead of fair.

Low
D-tilt
All it has is d-tilt lock, which is situational but extremely useful. It can trip people. Infinites against wall with grab release plus slidey running grab = good.

U-throw
Same as f-throw basically except it does less damage and is harder to follow up on sometimes. Bonus points for being a disco dance.

D-throw
While it can be used to predict people smart people will just jump away which leads to the same situation a f-throw or a u-throw can set up. People can also attack you out of it sometimes. D-throw plus pk fire pillar is too good though. It also, ironically, does the least damage.

D-smash
It has lots of range and can be used to edgeguard some people (see dog latin's recent video). It's problem is that it lots of startup lag and you can't cc it to do it out of a run. If you could do that it would be way more useful. Right now it's just too situational.

Bottom
PSI Magnet (upper in teams)
What's really bad about this move is that it's predictable and it has startup lag. Canceling it's ending lag is a neat trick though. I wish it still absorbed ic's neutral b. Great in teams for obvious reasons.

Pk flash
It was buffed from melee but the physics of brawl (multiple airdodges + ledgesnapping) makes it sterile. Yes there's that coiled snake became tame thing but that's situational at best. It does work against some recoveries though.

 

[Neon Ness]

Aw, man. thesage put PK Flash in dirt tier, too.

In that case, I still vote Gaussis as having the best move tier list. Though I do agree where neutral air, back air, and forward air are, those are really good moves. I should start using neutral air more...

 

[thesage]

Comment is Orange. Overall I would move everything down a tier as there aren't any moves that are exceedingly broken about Ness. Snake's u-tilt, mk's d-smash, and bananas would come to mind here for god tier

God Tier
Pkt
I highly disagree with this. At higher levels of play pkt is not as reliable as say, fair or b-throw

Top Tier
Dash-grab
I'd list the throws instead of grab range and properties as that's an attribute that's part of the throws
Nair
similar to where I placed it except I tied it with bair and fair
PKT2
while it's good for mindgames, it's a horrible recovery. All the mindgames part comes from the pkt part. I really wouldn't list them as seperate moves.

High Tier
Fair
Bair
Already talked about these two
Bthrow
Fthrow
why'd you list dash grab seperate from throws?
Utilt
Ftilt

Mid Tier
Uair
Dair
Usmash
Jab
PK Fire
Dthrow
Fsmash

Low Tier
PSI Magnet
Can be useful in teams but yea, pretty much useless in 1v1
Dash Attack
I disagree with Ness. It's one of his main moves he can use to punish with and has good range for a running attack. Just don't be predictable with it. It also comes out fast.
Uthrow
I'd place it above psi magnet
Dtilt
Dsmash
PK Flash

There's some more stuff, but I'm tired so this is what I'll say for now.

Edit: Dyrn, I believe I am one of the reasons pirate ship is banned (in my area) due to my usage of pkt. So yes it is quite possible to camp with [outside of certain counterpicks I mean] it and it makes certain matchups.

Gaussis: While pkt is def. Ness' most complex move, it isn't his most reliable, as it is nearly useless against certain characters. How good a move is (IMO) is how reliable it is and the reward it gives. I know were you're coming from on how pkt is a great move, the only problem is that it is not very reliable. If you miss it, you're screwed. How many times a match have you been punished for pkt? How about nair or fair or bair? How much damage have you racked up with pkt compared to nair, fair, or bair? How many times have you killed with pkt? How about b-throw. You have to factor in what job the move is supposed to do and how reliable it is. If I was playing chudat and I had the choice to b-throw to kill him or pkt, which would I chose? B-throw for sure.

 

[Dajayman]

I agree with sage. Although PK Thunder has its uses, it's definately not top tier it is high tier the most. Only time I use PK Thunder is when I have space, otherwise it's way too risky. And what gives you that space? Definitely not PK Thunder, but most likely a throw or aerial which is why they are top/high tier.

Also I vote nair for god tier. That move should be banned.

 

[Gaussis]

Gaussis: While pkt is def. Ness' most complex move, it isn't his most reliable, as it is nearly useless against certain characters. How good a move is (IMO) is how reliable it is and the reward it gives. I know were you're coming from on how pkt is a great move, the only problem is that it is not very reliable. If you miss it, you're screwed. How many times a match have you been punished for pkt? How about nair or fair or bair? How much damage have you racked up with pkt compared to nair, fair, or bair? How many times have you killed with pkt? How about b-throw. You have to factor in what job the move is supposed to do and how reliable it is. If I was playing chudat and I had the choice to b-throw to kill him or pkt, which would I chose? B-throw for sure.

I suppose it isn't reliable alone. For sure, I have racked up more damage with aerials than using PKT. I use PKT to put my opponents in a bad situation rather than rack up damage. In other words, PKT complements the aerials I use. As for killing......I'm going to leave it at that. I use PKT waayy too much for my liking. PKT/PKT2 and uair are tied for most kills. In other words, I am a player with terrible tendencies.

 

[Uffe]

^^^ This guy is good. I don't know about you guys, but PK Thunder belongs somewhere in high or top. I played against him just recently and he knew how to pressure me without even having to hit me. I wasn't sure whether to shield or use my PSI Magnet.

 

[Dajayman]

It seems nobody loves nair. It is very underrated imo.

 

[_clinton]

New Age Retro Hippie Tier:
2nd Jump (Just because)
Dair
Nair
Fair

Annoying Old Party Man Tier:
Bair
Taunts
Grabs and Throws overall
PK Thunder

Wally Tier:
PK Fire
USmash
Dash Attack
Uptilt

Unassuming Local Guy Tier:
Uair
Dtilt
PK Flash
Ftilt

Cranky Lady Tier:
PSI Magnet
Fsmash
Jab
Dsmash

 

[Dajayman]

Dsmash is underrated too. Not the best move, but definately low/low mid tier. Doesn't belong on bottom (or Cranky Lady) tier.

 

[Gaussis]

New Age Retro Hippie Tier:
2nd Jump (Just because)
Nair
Dair
Fair

Annoying Old Party Man Tier:
Bair
Taunts
Grabs and Throws overall
PK Thunder

Wally Tier:
PK Fire
USmash
Dash Attack
Uptilt

Unassuming Local Guy Tier:
Uair
Dtilt
PK Flash
Ftilt

Cranky Lady Tier:
PSI Magnet
Fsmash
Jab
Dsmash

I don't get what the list is supposed to be.

EDIT: stupid typo

 

[Uffe]

Dsmash is underrated too. Not the best move, but definately low/low mid tier. Doesn't belong on bottom (or Cranky Lady) tier.

Yes, nair and d-smash are underrated. They're so good, too.

 

[_clinton]

I don't get what the list is supposed to be.

EDIT: stupid typo

Those names are for certain foes in EB...except for Wally...who is EB0/M1...

BTW...This is Wally

http://walkthrough.starmen.net/earthbound0/image/enemies/wally.gif

 

[Uffe]

I got lost in that game. For some reason I stopped playing Mother 3, too.

 

[Dajayman]

I need to finish Mother 1 and 3. :o