Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Shaya]

You know I'm joking~

Full hop retreating back airs can nick human height characters on the way up.
I suppose the fact he can full hop rising forward air and act before he lands isn't that bad (somewhat standard for the multi hit fairs though [if you could call MK's that...]). He has the same aerial mobility as Marth (although probably worse acceleration?) and has faster landing pokes/mix ups. Borderline defensive merit. It could probably work against an air zoning Mario.

Try using pivot jump (RARing) momentum into forward air, he slides decently far.
Jump dair or nair afterwards.

 

[busken]

Can I DI to avoid the sweet spot? Would DI'ing inwards help there?

The bother trying to DI Shuttle Loop honestly it's just simply to fast to react to, and even if you anticipate DI inwards might mean you may die earlier because you are making the angle you're knock backed straighter. Just try to air dodge or jump out if MK is not fast enough.

Also, how many of you guys use tilt stick? I've made the change for a month now, but I feel like it's not really helping. The only one I find slightly useful is PP into U-tilt but it's nothing to good especially since U-tilt doesn't combo into Up-B at higher percents. PP d-tilt seems good in theory but the range on d-tilt is just too short for it to be viable for grounded defensive spacing. Thoughts?

EDIT: Tilt stick makes turnaround d-tilt way easier so that's cool.

 

[warionumbah2]

How do i beat MK? How do i DI Shuttle loop?

Play ZSS.

 

[Foster J.]

Ew Remilia....

His neutral is for sure lacking but he can get going with a single string, his edge guarding is also one of the better in this game due to being... well multi jumps, cause Nair is good at catching telegraphed recovery, Bair being multi hit works against air dodges s'long you get the last hit, and well Fair is kinda lack luster but seems more as a weak spacing tool rite?

But if you can eat a move on your shield Dair OoS sure is fun to do, especially if you can get the followup Dair haha

 

[Shaya]

I don't recall ZSS falling out of shuttle loop that easily :<

 

[Tito Maas]

How do i beat MK? How do i DI Shuttle loop?

Play ZSS.

Well, I do play ZSS actually but she's not good enough take on this final boss ass Meta Knight user I've been having so much trouble with. Don't want to unveil her just yet.

Beat him for the first time 5-2 with Pit yesterday (I'm the first one in my 20-man group chat to be able to beat him in a series) but almost all of his kills through the seven games, seemingly, came through Shuttle Loop setups and honestly for as long as I've been playing him (about a month and a half), he never opted to use the Shuttle Loop very much at all so it's not something I'm used to.

But does she fall out of the Shuttle Loop easily? And other basic details about that matchup? I've heard ZSS is one of MK's hardest matchups.

 

[warionumbah2]

She is our hardest MU, she doesn't fall out of shuttle loop but your answer to beating MK is right there.

She doesn't give a **** about sword users, she's faster than us,kills earlier than us, disadvantage state is stupid, can't edgeguard her, faster than us, walls us out, boost kick KBG is 220 the exact same as our Bair, faster than us, her utilt kills, her bair is safe, she can end our stock at 0 potentially.

She's almost a win button.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Understanding MK =/= Agreeing with Shaya

MK has yet to 0-death people, no MKs out there has gotten 0-death kills through footstools. Lets not bring up ZSS here because her stupidity puts our Uair combo's to shame.

Top tiers have more than 1 silly attribute, MK isn't top tier he only has 1 special attribute. You guys are overblowing sh fair, he will still lose MUs and characters are also getting buffed harder than MK so its not like he'll steamroll anyone.

His approach options will remain the same, but now he'll have a defensive option. His neutral would go from tr4sh to decent.

I believe it's just a matter of time until we can see MK 0-Death opponents, except if something really bad happens to one of the moves. Even top players are still far from perfect in their gameplay. I might have too much faith, maybe not, only time will tell. At least, we can agree on the fact that these 0-Death exists.

" Better fair " Meta Knight is not something i'd call broken ( and i didn't ) , but i can definitly see the improvments that it will bring. As you said, it would greatly improve his neutral game, still not amazing, but better. In terms of the matchup & his potential, characters that kind of walled out MK's options in the neutral would probably have it rougher vs Meta Knight.

In terms of enjoyment, it's quite obvious that all of us, MK mains ( Kewl guys ) would like a buff like that to happen, after all, any kind of buff to your character is enjoyable after all, even when it's a major change that makes you learn new things.

The main subject i'm doubtful on is how much we would be improved exactly, and how much it would matter to the metagame. I'm completely fine with a top tier Meta Knight, as long as we're not considered unhealthy to the metagame for invalidating too much characters or something like that. =)

@ Foster J. What is it? Does my name ring a bell to you? Bad memories or something? Haha, i'm sorry then.

 

[Shaya]

She is our hardest MU, she doesn't fall out of shuttle loop but your answer to beating MK is right there.

She doesn't give a **** about sword users, she's faster than us,kills earlier than us, disadvantage state is stupid, can't edgeguard her, faster than us, walls us out, boost kick KBG is 220 the exact same as our Bair, faster than us, her utilt kills, her bair is safe, she can end our stock at 0 potentially.

She's almost a win button.

She is by far not a win button. Maybe against current pragmatic MK. And wow boost kick is the same strength as your bair? They should buff boost kick... it's a special move after all :> Or even better, nerf your back air, a move with such little lag and commitment comparatively shouldn't be that powerful :3

And shielding that up tilt gives you an fsmash. And your fault for being near the ledge, you can't be up air 0-death'd.

 

[warionumbah2]

If you want to 0-Death top tiers you have to be frame perfect in your fastfall, frame perfect in the turn around Dtilt and also get your uair combo's while being under pressure since all that silly effort could go to waste with one miss input.

It exists but it hasn't been used in real matches at high level, it doesn't even work on Fox. 0-Death is a myth formulated by ito's video that went viral for a while, he has not 0-Death anyone clean with MK. Ended their stock at 20-30% yeah he has but not from 0.

We already crush certain characters, but they suck so no one cares...for now. If MK got buffed to the point where he's braindead i would not be pleased, i would rather get a buff where his skill floor is the same or none at all.

She is by far not a win button. Maybe against current pragmatic MK. And wow boost kick is the same strength as your bair? They should buff boost kick... it's a special move after all :> Or even better, nerf your back air, a move with such little lag and commitment shouldn't be that powerful.

And shielding that up tilt gives you an fsmash. And your fault for being near the ledge, you can't be up air 0-death'd.

I don't know if your joking or not fam. Its hard to tell.

Edit: She is a win button against swordies.

 

[Shaya]

The boost kick vs bair part was.
But I'd say your chances of being 0'death'd would have to be a nair dsmash into flip jump spike near the ledge, and that would be because you're super light + would require rage I'd say.

ZSS up tilt is that laggy.

 

[MistressRemilia]

If you want to 0-Death top tiers you have to be frame perfect in your fastfall, frame perfect in the turn around Dtilt and also get your uair combo's while being under pressure since all that silly effort could go to waste with one miss input.

It exists but it hasn't been used in real matches at high level, it doesn't even work on Fox. 0-Death is a myth formulated by ito's video that went viral for a while, he has not 0-Death anyone clean with MK. Ended their stock at 20-30% yeah he has but not from 0.

We already crush certain characters, but they suck so no one cares...for now. If MK got buffed to the point where he's braindead i would not be pleased, i would rather get a buff where his skill floor is the same or none at all.



I don't know if your joking or not fam. Its hard to tell.

Edit: She is a win button against swordies.

Sort of agreed on that point, I guess i'm just overprotective on MK because i don't want him to become a character for anyone that will be resumed in 1 sentence, it would kind of destroy a part of me, when you know our community tried its best to be as handy as possible, and helps any kind of player so we can succeed.

I'm not going to get into a tier discussion, some charas are better than others for sure, but the situation i meant is the worst case possible, rather than just a bad one. If we invalidate, let's say, closely half of the roster, we'd be potentially considered as unhealthy for the metagame, preventing a bunch of characters to shine because of our matchup.

Ah, and frame perfect is an overstatement, we don't have to do everything frame perfect, but i got to admit that's it's " requiring " to say the least, and the error isn't allowed. There's also a bunch of factors, mainly done by the opposing player, that makes this a possibility.

Either way, to get back on the overall subject, we do have a fantastic combo game, that can rip through the opponent at low%, but this is balanced by a rather poor neutral. I guess i just really like how Meta Knight is in this game, he feels very rewarding while not " free " , if you see what i mean.

 

[warionumbah2]

People already want him nerfed..

One sec

Cough cough shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayayayayayayaahahaaha couchashaya coucgh cough shaya cough excuse me cough shaaaaaaya cough @ Shaya cough cough coooooooouuuuuuugh cough cough shaya cough.

Apologies. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[busken]

People already want him nerfed..

One sec

Cough cough shaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayayayayayayaahahaaha couchashaya coucgh cough shaya cough excuse me cough shaaaaaaya cough @ Shaya cough cough coooooooouuuuuuugh cough cough shaya cough.

Apologies. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Shut up yo lol

 

[Shaya]

I want a 1% damage taken off the best vertical kill move in the game, sorry.

 

[Amadeus9]

I really doubt we'll be seeing the Diddy Nerf bat. Diddy was a character with a completely dominating presence, overwhelming strengths, and few glaring flaws. He deserved to get smacked around.

Since then, Nintendo has been very conservative about nerfing characters, it's been almost universal buffs. The fact that shiek and luigi went basically untouched this patch is pretty telling I think. Meta knight is nowhere close to be a completely dominating fighter in this meta. He can have overwhelming strength, but this is definitely countered by having some pretty easy to exploit flaws. Also note, please, that the devs designed him with the ability to up air combo... There's no way that could have been an oversight. The move's hitstun, knock back and speed... No the character was designed to be played this way and I seriously doubt the devs will remove such a defining feature of this fighter.

I don't think we'll be getting any more major buffs, I don't think we really need them, and tbh I don't think this game needs much more in terms of patches, we've reached a point where even below average fighters can be successful at a high level. On the other hand the day MK gets nerfed is the day I stop playing smash 4 competively and move to a different game. A character as well designed and balanced against his strengths with targeted weakness as Mk does not deserve to get nerfed just because a few people are complaining (tho if it was 1% off upb I could deal I guess), and frankly it'll just be proof that the devs actually have a ****ing god awful design and patch philosophy.

I also like how those with kawaii interests (@ Amadeus9 @ Krysco ) seem to truly understand MK in the deepest way possible

Lol

 

[warionumbah2]

On the other hand the day MK gets nerfed is the day I stop playing smash 4 competively and move to a different game. If a character as well designed and balanced against his strengths with targeted weakness as Mk does not deserve to get nerfed just because a few people are complaining (tho if it was 1% off upb I could deal I guess), and frankly it'll just be proof that the devs actually have a ****ing god awful design and patch philosophy.

I would quit if 1% was taken off. his damage per hit is already low, i think its a dumb idea and im confident sakurai won't mess with shuttle loop.

 

[Shaya]

But while I think that, I do believe he should get buffs in other areas, compensatory or otherwise.
Forward Air, Forward Tilt, Down Air, Down Smash. They may not be bad, but they're more underwhelming than they probably need to be.

 

[Jamurai]

Also, how many of you guys use tilt stick? I've made the change for a month now, but I feel like it's not really helping. The only one I find slightly useful is PP into U-tilt but it's nothing to good especially since U-tilt doesn't combo into Up-B at higher percents. PP d-tilt seems good in theory but the range on d-tilt is just too short for it to be viable for grounded defensive spacing. Thoughts?

EDIT: Tilt stick makes turnaround d-tilt way easier so that's cool.

I thought about using it for turnaround Dtilt and PP tilts. However:

• I'm too used to smash C-stick...
• You can use FF Nair or Bair to carry on footstool combos instead of turnaround Dtilt
• PP Utilt and Dtilt don't seem useful enough to justify learning to use attack C-stick (for me), and you can still PP jab with smash C-stick which seems like the most useful PP attack

So I'm sticking to smash C-stick basically.

But while I think that, I do believe he should get buffs in other areas, compensatory or otherwise.
Forward Air, Forward Tilt, Down Air, Down Smash. They may not be bad, but they're more underwhelming than they probably need to be.

Fair I can see a case for. Ftilt and Dair are definitely both in a good spot I would say, they both have their uses. And to be honest I also like Dsmash, I think it's ok considering how fast it comes out (frame 4), it's a nice "get off me" move. Not to mention the back hit is surprisingly powerful in terms of knockback.

If any move should be buffed, it's Fair by a mile. It'd be sweet but I don't think it's necessary.

 

[busken]

Do you know how much slower FF nair and back air is? At least 7 frames which tooo much. Meh I'm just lazy af and can only blame myself. I need to be in the dojo practicing for hours to have my input competence where I want it to be. I will keep practicing though.

 

[Tito Maas]

I disagree with all this talk about Meta Knight buffs, lol.

 

[Jamurai]

I disagree with all this talk about Meta Knight buffs, lol.

u in the wrong neighbourhood to be talkin that nonsense...

 

[warionumbah2]

I disagree with all this talk about Meta Knight buffs, lol.

You sound like Norcal players.

 

[Krysco]

There was a post earlier about tilt vs smash stick. I use tilt stick since back when the game first came out having smash stick messed up your aerial momentum if you held it. I've heard that that's gone now? Never bothered to test it. I'm just used to tilt stick now and it makes pp utilt and dtilt easier which may not be the most useful thing for MK but for the likes of Ike and omg Kirby it's good.

There was also a post earlier saying how everyone likes a buff on their character and in a sense I disagree though it's not a patch that makes me say this. I ****ing hate Sm4sh Mario despite loving him in 64, Melee, Brawl and P:M and of the Nintendo made ones, this is arguably Mario's best with his only real competition being his 64 incarnation.

For MK though I wouldn't mind a buff here or there. Fair is of course the main move to buff but I'm not on the 'reduce endlag/landing lag' boat most others seem to be one. I mean, if we get that buff then great, we have a sh aerial that isn't uair or dair but I'd also like the other two buffs I mentioned: either getting the meteor hit back or lowering the angle of the third hit so it gimps.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

 

[Dogivet]

I didn't really play MK in Brawl, (wanted to play him but always felt clunky to use and lacked kill potential, as far as I knew at the time), but did that auto cancel f-air make that much of a difference?

I'm really just curious now from reading the past page...

 

[Jamurai]

What made MK broken in Brawl was much more than the autocancel Fair lol. He had everything you could ask for in a character: range, combos, speed, kill power, mobility, can recover from anywhere on the map, transcendent priority on most of his moves... Blah blah. His only weakness was being "light" but he wasn't even that light. I watched the VoDs from yesterday's Brawl games at SSC and I can't believe I forgot just how broken he was, the thing that struck me most was the range on his Dtilt and Ftilt, holy moly.

Thinking about it now I think I was wrong about less lag on Fair, it would improve our neutral but not by much. It'd be a good buff to have so we have a reason to use it, other than for one combo and using it in the air when nothing else will reach.

EDIT: go look at M2K's MK in any Brawl VoD for a good example.

 

[Amadeus9]

Improved FAir wouldn't be a combo tool. It would be an amazing approach stuffer, which would drastically improve our neutral imo. Returning DTilt and Ftilt to their former glory would make us broke, lol.

 

[V23]

Quick question, [VS ] im hitting DA -> uair then he Air dodge, whats the best follow-up if i condition him to air dodge? or if read \ react to it

 

[Jamurai]

If you can continue the Uair string after he airdodges, then continue, if not I'd use tornado

 

[Jamurai]

Sorry for double post but: Mr R just counterpicked MK against Dabuz's Rosa!! http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

Edit: only one game... and it didn't go that well lol. Tunneled really hard on Uairs

 

[warionumbah2]

It went amazing, dabuz only won at a clutch +100% situation last stock. This is only a pocket MK he pulled out of his ass, this MU is so clean.

He missed every uair and shuttle loop but he got every Nair edgeguard. Can't complain, it was either sheik on halberd or mk who's way better on that stage.

 

[Jamurai]

Yeah you're right actually, it definitely wasn't bad considering it was a pocket pick. I was just a bit disappointed with the result of the game I think

 

[MistressRemilia]

Yeah you're right actually, it definitely wasn't bad considering it was a pocket pick. I was just a bit disappointed with the result of the game I think

Rosa landing on platform with her Up B, Mr.R just had to catch her with Shuttle Loop, due to rage, game was done.
Dissapointed by that mistake, but yeah, for a pocket Meta Knight, Mr.R did good.

 

[busken]

I'm gonna be their one day just gotta keep working hard. Also, anybody have the link to the bracket?

 

[Jeronado]

Yo Mr. R actually took a game off of Nairo's ZSS with MK

 

[Jamurai]

Nairo is super aggressive, not sure he's prepared to camp/zone out an MK. He may be a great ZSS player in a great matchup, but he's whiffing so many grabs today and any MK player worth their salt will punish that **** hard (like Mr R did)

Edit: @ busken http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles

 

[warionumbah2]

Still got 5th, unlike allys marth at evo we actually won a agame lol. Dem results at majors tho.

 

[Foster J.]

@MistressRemilia Just the usual gosh darn Touhou.

Also lmao Mr. R busting out a MK, popularity boost

 

[busken]

More sheep? They breed so quickly!