Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[N~W .]

Went to my monthly Smash 4 tourney and went all MK last Saturday and I did pretty well. I got 5th out of 80-90 or so entrants only missing out on the 4th place money to a skilled Pikachu player after being knocked into losers by a Fox player. Both of which being French internationals.

Pro Bracket: http://gp-tips.challonge.com/DS6pro

The format was pools at first and I only dropped one game throughout my pool. I took out some good players on my way to top 8 including a C.Falcon who came 3rd last tournament (Willz) and a strong Rosalina player (Wilksy15 ninten*) who does really well in the midlands scene.

One thing I need to work on though is my awareness as to when I should and shouldn't be doing uair strings especially whilst in rage. I know what percentages I should be going for uairs without rage but with it is a different story and I kept falling into the flowchart of just chucking out Dash Attacks until they connected and not reading air dodges properly.

I was disappointed that I couldn't truly defend the UK/London scene but it was my best performance at a tournament of this scale yet and I hope to improve on this performance as I continue to learn MK.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oooh European MKs are surfacing. Nice! Any videos?

 

[N~W .]

Oooh European MKs are surfacing. Nice! Any videos?

I asked the TOs and they said that the capture card broke when they were trying to record it. They have audio but no visual images. It's a shame because I got a zero to death on the Pikachu player in game 2 (well at least from what they were saying, I wasn't really paying attention to the percentage, I kinda just wanted to take stocks really) and people got hype for the song 'Swan Lesson' on Duck Hunt.

They call the Dash Attack > uairs in to Up B combo the 'Swan Lesson' combo now because of that moment.

 

[Katakiri]

@ ZTD | TECHnology I need to know all your + doubles tech. I''m most likely teaming with one Saturday and I want the most shenanigans possible.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Katakiri its probably MMs down, forward, back throw into our nado and then after the opponent pops out he uses his uair and MK shuttle loops?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

@ Katakiri I will be sending you a PM later today.

 

[Amadeus9]

Has anyone else been really put off by the new up air sword trails? I feel like I need to completely redo all my practice with it because the visual cues I'm getting are making me drop combos I would never drop before.

 

[warionumbah2]

Nope. Nothings changed for me.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Has not affected my strings in the slightest.

 

[Amadeus9]

K, guess I just gotta get good. Thanks mates

 

[Jamurai]

Found something weird while practising today. Not sure if this is known, but I haven't seen it mentioned and thought it was cool.

You know how if you dash one way and then smash the stick to the other side MK brakes with his wings and slides across the floor? If, as you smash the stick the other way, you press A, the brake animation (which is long as hell) is cancelled and he Ftilts. You can dash along and turn around and Ftilt immediately. (And as we know, if you catch someone with it you could do Ftilt 1/2 into Up-B, dash grab or DA.)

The cool thing is, if you just do Ftilt 1, you can start dashing the other way much faster than normal. I think it may be quicker than stopping, waiting a bit and dashing the other way too ("dance trotting"?), because if you do that too soon the brake animation comes out. But with the immediate pivot Ftilt 1 into dash it's really quick. Dash > pivot Ftilt 1 > dash the same way is a bit slower than just foxtrotting though.

 

[Foster J.]

The animation changes are actually nifty, at least I don't choke the Bair anymore heh

 

[warionumbah2]

landing lag reduction on ALL THEIR AERIALS

.....Nair

**** this game.

 

[Krysco]

Well to be fair, we started off better than those other two swordsmen and I'd argue to say we're still doing better. Plus Sakurai or whoever is in charge of balance patches might be afraid to buff our lovely bat in fears of people calling him broken like the Brawl days.

 

[W.A.C.]

Meta Knight's forward air should have an end lag reduction by a lot. It's such a lousy move. Probably his only bad move after all the buffs he received.

 

[Jamurai]

Trouble is if it had low end / landing lag then we'd have a stronger neutral cause we could SH Fair space, and then we would have no real weakness apart from being kinda light... We need a bad neutral to balance our dumb punish game (as much as I don't like to admit it)

 

[Amadeus9]

Trouble is if it had low end / landing lag then we'd have a stronger neutral cause we could SH Fair space, and then we would have no real weakness apart from being kinda light... We need a bad neutral to balance our dumb punish game (as much as I don't like to admit it)

We would still have weaknesses. We would still only have dash grab and dash attack as our approach tools, because attacking shield is still bad. What we would get is another safe defensive move in neutral to stuff approaches. Would it makes us OP? I don't think so, but I do think it would make us top tier. Regardless we will never get it. If we do I'll eat a hat.

 

[Krysco]

What if we keep the landing lag/endlag of the move but instead give it back it's meteor property it had back at release or lower it's angle so it's a better gimping tool? At the moment, fair is just that move you throw out when you're in the air and need to attack in front of you and nair won't reach.

 

[warionumbah2]

They either make his cqc game insane, like making ftilt godlike and dtilt silly again by making mk slides forward more. Or they stop being FE bias and knock off 3 or 4 frames of landing lag on all his aerials.

2 sword users got all their landing lag changed TWICE. We only got nair, sakurai you ok?

 

[busken]

Didn't do too much labbing at allll today. Sometimes I get discouraged when practicing and just give up after awhile. I might play again today but idk.

Any I found 2 new things.
The reduced landing lag on n-air allows for solid tech chases as many of you know. However, the cool thing is that when the opponent is at like 14-20% depending on character SH buffered sweetspot n-air will create an untechable sitaution. Basically, the tech window is so short that if they are not expecting this they will probably miss the tech. To make it even better, if you have fast reaction time you can react if they tech or don't. If they don't tech you can jab lock them with d-tilt. If they do you can just dash attack or dash grab wherever they tech roll. Sadly, there isn't a reliable way to set this and at higher percents the lag from nair makes tech chasing impossible.

Also, I've been playing around with perfect pivots and all I have to say is that MK has reliable way to 0-death sheik from down throw even if she DI's away. I'm still looking at the hitstun frame data and I have more frame advantage data on MK's tilts as well so I'll probably dump it all into a thread soon.

 

[Jamurai]

Regardless we will never get it. If we do I'll eat a hat.

I will join you in hat-eating if we get a Fair buff, if we have to dine at least we will do so among the ZSSs and Luigis.

 

[Amadeus9]

Also, I've been playing around with perfect pivots and all I have to say is that MK has reliable way to 0-death sheik from down throw even if she DI's away. I'm still looking at the hitstun frame data and I have more frame advantage data on MK's tilts as well so I'll probably dump it all into a thread soon.

Oh my god don't tease me like this

 

[Ritronaut]

Didn't do too much labbing at allll today. Sometimes I get discouraged when practicing and just give up after awhile. I might play again today but idk.

Any I found 2 new things.
The reduced landing lag on n-air allows for solid tech chases as many of you know. However, the cool thing is that when the opponent is at like 14-20% depending on character SH buffered sweetspot n-air will create an untechable sitaution. Basically, the tech window is so short that if they are not expecting this they will probably miss the tech. To make it even better, if you have fast reaction time you can react if they tech or don't. If they don't tech you can jab lock them with d-tilt. If they do you can just dash attack or dash grab wherever they tech roll. Sadly, there isn't a reliable way to set this and at higher percents the lag from nair makes tech chasing impossible.

Also, I've been playing around with perfect pivots and all I have to say is that MK has reliable way to 0-death sheik from down throw even if she DI's away. I'm still looking at the hitstun frame data and I have more frame advantage data on MK's tilts as well so I'll probably dump it all into a thread soon.

Yeah, speaking of perfect pivots

Meta Knight has one of the better ones in this game, tied for 4th place (or 3rd if you consider Mac and Luigi 2nd) with 5... square thingies. This could probably used to our advantage, but I really don't see it being used often at all (unless i'm watching the wrong Meta Knights). Some ideas include:

• Perfect pivot uptilt, this could be useful against the likes of sheik, perfect pivot uptilt into her fair pressure and then you've got your up air strings set up.
  
• Perfect pivot up B, I'm not too sure against who it could be useful against, but I dunno, I see it being useful.
  
• Perfect pivot dtilt, could be useful for PPing away from your opponent, tripping them into a grab or dash attack.
  
• Perfect pivot ftilt 1st hit into up B confirm. Not sure if this could actually work well, but i'm just spitballing here.
• Perfect pivot as bait so you can follow up with dash attack or grab (PP away and then dash attack towards the opponent if they chase you)

These are just some ways I can see perfect pivoting being used, could some of these be useless? Maybe. Will at least one of them be useful? Probably.

 

[Ritronaut]

this is what happens when you have slow internet and press "post reply" twice while the post is taking years to load

 

[Tito Maas]

uh is there a wway to DI the shuttle loop? lmao

 

[Amadeus9]

Yeah, but it's like ZSS upb, we hjave a 50/50 chasing your di, the difference is our UpB is much more reliable.

 

[Tito Maas]

Yeah, but it's like ZSS upb, we hjave a 50/50 chasing your di, the difference is our UpB is much more reliable.

I figured.

Which way should I DI to escape and when? I know for ZSS, you DI inside until the actual kick and then DI diagonally down and inwards.

 

[Amadeus9]

Well, iirc, MK's UpB has a sweetspot, and if the sweet spot connects you can't do anything. With the sour spot I believe we have to chase your di, either way you di can eject you from the loop.

 

[Shaya]

They either make his cqc game insane, like making ftilt godlike and dtilt silly again by making mk slides forward more. Or they stop being FE bias and knock off 3 or 4 frames of landing lag on all his aerials.

2 sword users got all their landing lag changed TWICE. We only got nair, sakurai you ok?

But neither of those sword users have any good tournament results while MK does :<

 

[LostinpinK]

Yeah, speaking of perfect pivots

Meta Knight has one of the better ones in this game, tied for 4th place (or 3rd if you consider Mac and Luigi 2nd) with 5... square thingies. This could probably used to our advantage, but I really don't see it being used often at all (unless i'm watching the wrong Meta Knights). Some ideas include:

• Perfect pivot uptilt, this could be useful against the likes of sheik, perfect pivot uptilt into her fair pressure and then you've got your up air strings set up.
  
• Perfect pivot up B, I'm not too sure against who it could be useful against, but I dunno, I see it being useful.
  
• Perfect pivot dtilt, could be useful for PPing away from your opponent, tripping them into a grab or dash attack.
  
• Perfect pivot ftilt 1st hit into up B confirm. Not sure if this could actually work well, but i'm just spitballing here.
• Perfect pivot as bait so you can follow up with dash attack or grab (PP away and then dash attack towards the opponent if they chase you)

These are just some ways I can see perfect pivoting being used, could some of these be useless? Maybe. Will at least one of them be useful? Probably.

I often PP jab. Super useful to punish dash attacks. I also sometimes go for PP down smash. I don't think it's worth setting your c stick to attacks though.
It takes quite a long time to get this tech all the time but if you're patient, just practice PP everytime you can (in the wifi waiting room, or as a "taunt" when the opponent is dead) and you'll get it.

 

[Steelballray]

We would still have weaknesses. We would still only have dash grab and dash attack as our approach tools, because attacking shield is still bad. What we would get is another safe defensive move in neutral to stuff approaches. Would it makes us OP? I don't think so, but I do think it would make us top tier. Regardless we will never get it. If we do I'll eat a hat.

I'll hold you on to that.

 

[warionumbah2]

But neither of those sword users have any good tournament results while MK does :<

Still silly how those guys are getting huge frame data buffs and we are left in the dust. This patch further proves it, we got a pitiful Utilt buff and sword teail adjustments. MK just needs sh fair and i'll shut up.

but I really don't see it being used often at all (unless i'm watching the wrong Meta Knights).

Ito was using it alot in the last norcal tournament he went to, he was PPing to space his F-Smash or as a straight up movement option in neutral.

Leo was doing it as well against Mr R. Just recently a MK called sebak(not correct spelling) was using PP Jab, you can find him on VSGC twitch. He got 3rd losing to 8bitman and some Sheik.

 

[Shaya]

Well if they think MK is a strong character at this stage while those two aren't?
I think the sword trail change was like a weird "signature finished" type of signal, but who knows for sure.

IMO MK was definitely better than Marth before this patch. Now I still think he is, but I'm not sure how far behind marth is now.

A full hop ff fair auto cancel would be good at the least (unless I'm messing up the timing on this that easily and it's already the case).

 

[busken]

You guys are just greedy. MK doesn't need a buff and he won't get it anyway. In fact, they nerfed his forward air already and the trend of patches means that they won't go back to rebuff moves. MK is a good character and seeing results, while Ike and Marth are poorly represented. I'm even thinking that they will nerf MK because of the u-air strings.

I often PP jab. Super useful to punish dash attacks. I also sometimes go for PP down smash. I don't think it's worth setting your c stick to attacks though.
It takes quite a long time to get this tech all the time but if you're patient, just practice PP everytime you can (in the wifi waiting room, or as a "taunt" when the opponent is dead) and you'll get it.

Jab seems to laggy to be a viable spacing option imo

 

[MistressRemilia]

Well if they think MK is a strong character at this stage while those two aren't?
I think the sword trail change was like a weird "signature finished" type of signal, but who knows for sure.

IMO MK was definitely better than Marth before this patch. Now I still think he is, but I'm not sure how far behind marth is now.

A full hop ff fair auto cancel would be good at the least (unless I'm messing up the timing on this that easily and it's already the case).

Japan thinks Marcina are close to Bottom 10, especially Lucina, often seen in Bottom 5.
While on the other side, Meta Knight has been around the middle high tier.
It seems normal that the " worst " characters get buffed, right?
I'd say MK is weirdly balanced in this game, and buffing what's pretty meh in his gameplay seems to be a choice that could have big consequences on the metagame, maybe even bring back the sheer brokeness of a Brawl MK in a different way. MK in this game sure has a rather poor neutral game, but ( imo ) he has the best comboing abilities of the game & can score 0 to Death even easier than ZSS, a character considered Top 5 by many nowadays.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ok mk doesn't get touched at all, but everyone else does. What then? @ busken

Sh fair is all we need to be complete and jab isn't laggy.

 

[Shaya]

@ MistressRemilia I like your style.

You should be the new face of the passive aggressive swordsman board.
I also like how those with kawaii interests (@ Amadeus9 @ Krysco ) seem to truly understand MK in the deepest way possible

 

[busken]

MK is good enough. Are you trying to say he won't be complete until his toolset his top tier status? Meh Idec anymore I'm just trying to git gud.

 

[warionumbah2]

Understanding MK =/= Agreeing with Shaya

MK has yet to 0-death people, no MKs out there has gotten 0-death kills through footstools. Lets not bring up ZSS here because her stupidity puts our Uair combo's to shame.

Top tiers have more than 1 silly attribute, MK isn't top tier he only has 1 special attribute. You guys are overblowing sh fair, he will still lose MUs and characters are also getting buffed harder than MK so its not like he'll steamroll anyone.

His approach options will remain the same, but now he'll have a defensive option. His neutral would go from tr4sh to decent.

 

[Tito Maas]

Well, iirc, MK's UpB has a sweetspot, and if the sweet spot connects you can't do anything. With the sour spot I believe we have to chase your di, either way you di can eject you from the loop.

Can I DI to avoid the sweet spot? Would DI'ing inwards help there? I tend to DI outwards but I can't tell if I'm not doing it right, if he's just reading it, or if it's futile altogether DI'ing in that direction