Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[ぱみゅ]

MK's dashgrab is a tool you need to understand, if your opponent is too close you'll miss, so you can't blindly run to them. Learn when to run and when to walk (and pivot grab) is essential.

My favourite Kirby game is Kirby's Dreamland. Yes, the original one, I used to play it a lot on my old GB. And I still love it. I also kinda like Superstar.

TL-MK is much like Brawl: Metaknight must stay a bit outside of Tink's sword range, and dash in to wreck damage. It's waaaaaaaaaay more difficult now, without much range to work around projectiles and no Nado, but it's very doable. Also, abuse TL's linear recovery, you snap him a bit out of it and he's doomed.

 

[Golden Sun]

define difficult, cause I'm pretty confused on what you're trying to say.

When you run and try and grab, its like you get x2 slided like how when you dash grab you slide a little bit, but MK gets x2 that and its difficult to grab players, not sure if this makes any sense.

 

[Oblivion129]

I've seen people say Meta Knight doesn't have a hard time against Sonic. Is there something I should know? Like I know Mach Tornado beats spin dash, but what else helps the MU?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess Dash Attack clashes with everything Sonic throws, and Dtilt pokes his ground approaches.
Also, I guess Sonic can't freely juggle MK like against most characters, nor intercept his recovery easily.
Not sure, I hav never played this MU.

 

[Katakiri]

I won another singles tourney yesterday. I think there were 44 entrants to Smash 4 singles and PM & Melee were there too so half-way through pools we had to change the rules to 2 stocks just to finish before the venue closed. We cut it close too. If I had lost the 1st set in Grands and we had to play a 2nd set, we probably would have gotten kicked out. Too many people, not enough setups, and too many games (which means people not playing their Smash 4 matches) at the tourney. It was fun enough though otherwise.

I managed to get all of my bracket matches recorded this time so I'll post those in the video thread once they're done uploading/after work.

 

[Oblivion129]

I won another singles tourney yesterday. I think there were 44 entrants to Smash 4 singles and PM & Melee were there too so half-way through pools we had to change the rules to 2 stocks just to finish before the venue closed. We cut it close too. If I had lost the 1st set in Grands and we had to play a 2nd set, we probably would have gotten kicked out. Too many people, not enough setups, and too many games (which means people not playing their Smash 4 matches) at the tourney. It was fun enough though otherwise.

I managed to get all of my bracket matches recorded this time so I'll post those in the video thread once they're done uploading/after work.

Congrats! Not losing a single set!
Is there anything you learned that's worth noting? Stages, MUs, anything.

 

[daedgaem]

Saw your videos Katakiri. Noticed you never Upb'd oos, which made me wonder. Do you have tap to jump turned on or off?

 

[Katakiri]

In the few game where I could have Up-B OoS for a KO, it either didn't cross my mind or the risk wasn't worth it. If I'm at high percents, I stop going for unsafe Nados and Up-B OoS just because if I miss or they shield it, I lose and that's never worth the risk when money's on the line. But I do play with tap jump on.

MU-wise, I learned that I hate fighting Sonic. I mained Sonic in Brawl for 2+ years so I thought I could deal with him in pools but the problem is killing him. I can deal with his neutral game and spin dashes but Sonic plays a better mid-range game than MK, his KO moves a surprisingly safe, and his recovery is very hard to gimp. While both games were close, he ended up 2-0ing me in pools but I know exactly what I did wrong. I didn't play mid-stage because I feared Spin Dash and doubted my ability to react to it. If I could react to Greninja's forward-roll to frame 3 jab in Grand Finals, I can react to Spin Dash and probably could have turned every one into a free Mach Tornado. But instead I played one side of the stage instead of the middle and that's where I messed up. I don't think that's a bad MU for MK, I just need to gitgud at the MU myself and even that's just a mentality issue.

The region got wise to my strategy of CP Kongo Jungle 64 every single match, so I've started taking people to Lylat Cruise since it offers some of the same distant blast-zones that makes me like Kongo. The platforms also make Tornado safer and make the air a far more dangerous place to be against MK. If your opponent's lands on a platform, they should get Up-Aired every time; being above MK is a horrible place to be so Lylat really limits where opponents can land and what they can do in the air.
As long as the opponent doesn't get benefited from Lylat more than BF, (for instance Mega Man can Up-Tilt for free with no ending lag by landing on Lylat's low platforms after the Uppercut) I think it might be MK's best starter stage.

 

[Oblivion129]

I had the same problem against a Sonic. I tried to read the spin dash rather than controlling the stage and reacting to it. I definitely feel that I could do better now against him.
Something I need to get used to is not using Shuttle Loop to hit people below the stage. It ends up saving people rather than stage spiking like in Brawl.

I'll take Lylat into consideration, as well.

 

[ItoI6]

if sonic spindashes at you he needs to jump after he passes you in order to cancel it and not get lag, so just shield when he comes at you and dash after him and punish his landing with dash attack. i dont think you can tornado on reaction to it though. its impossible to gimp him because hes invincible so i just like to stand at the ledge and try to mix him up with a threat of a ledge trump. its like mks best high tier matchup i think.

 

[Deleted member]

Currently watching your videos as well. You play a very good MK, would love to see a Meta Knight ditto with you and itoi, lol.

 

[KassandraNova]

Help! I'm falling in love with the bat again. :/

I thought we had parted ways at the end of Brawl, but here he is, at my door step, so I just let him back into my life again.

 

[Lavani]

Hello Meta Knights,

Would you be interested in frame data?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Hello Meta Knights,

Would you be interested in frame data?

Of course we would.

 

[Sol0ke]

I'm going to start using the knight again. It feels bad to abandon one of my favorite video game characters.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Hello Meta Knights,

Would you be interested in frame data?

GIMME MY FRAME DATA NAO!

 

[Lavani]

GIMME MY FRAME DATA NAO!

N-now? But I only have it half done...

I'll have a preliminary thread up tonight or tomorrow.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fine, you're excused..... for now. I'll be looking forward to it.

 

[Golden Sun]

Im being salty right now, but this seems like its true, the Knight seems too hard to win against a good Sonic, one that is using the spindash cancel and the up-b to down-a trick, sure his Mach Tornado is amazing against Sonic's spindash to uair, but hes just too fast against a Sonic and his moves that lag afterwards makes him vulnerable from Sonic's spindashes.

EDIT: Didn't see the posts above.

I really hope Sakurai atleast buffs Meta Knight if we ever get a new update for balancing characters, these are my ideas:

1.Make Meta Knight catch the ledge from behind if you use DC, MT, or DR, im sure a heavy amount of MK players don't catch the ledge after they use it and they are VERY VERY close to the ledge but they're facing behind It.

2.Buff Meta Knight's range in down smash and jab, just jab and down smash, the tilts don't need any range imo, Sakurai could've atleast made MK's range to the tip of the sword, even Ike's range is longer than the tip of his sword.

3.Make Meta Knight's down smash stronger, I don't think 9 damage for a fully charged down smash is good enough, weakest fully charged down smash in the game?

 

[Sol0ke]

Charged down smash does only 9%? Wth

 

[Golden Sun]

Charged down smash does only 9%? Wth

Try it in the training mode, its ridiculous, and even a uncharged down smash does 7%

Anyway, what I usually do to start off matches is grab the opponent, pummel once, down throw, then when they get out, automatically use up-b its a 24% combo, perfect for starting things off.

EDIT: charged down smash is 9 in front and 13 in back

I don't know who is much cooler, Mewtwo or Meta Knight

 

[MagiusNecros]

So yeah I did this on Lvl9 Sheik both idle and in attack mode but when your opponent is at 0% Dash Attack > Tornado seems to be a true combo just like Dthrow > Shuttle Loop is a true combo.

And done right you put Sheik at 22% damage.

Anyone want to confirm if this works on other characters? DI seems to not matter at all.

 

[Lavani]

I am sad to admit that I kind of lost interest in this character over the past couple of days.

I don't think it would be a good idea for me to make a frame data thread because I doubt I would keep up with it, but I did promise frame data so I'll dump what I've got here:

Terminology
Active: The frames an action performs its function.
FAF: "First Actionable Frame". The first frame on which you can act after an attack.
Landing Lag: Lag frames when landing during an aerial or after a B move.
Autocancel: Frames in which landing from an aerial doesn't incur landing lag. For example, landing before 6f or after 24f while using uair won't incur uair's landing lag.

Color coding: Hitbox active, intangibility, FAF, landing lag, autocancel

Attack | Active | FAF | Notes
Jab | 7-27+f | | Minimum 5 hits
Jab ender | 3f | 47f |
Jab combo | 7-27f, 30f | 74f | Min. hit count
Ftilt 1 | 6f | 33f | Transition to Ftilt 2 on 11f
Ftilt 2 | 2f | 35f | Transition to Ftilt 3 on 7f
Ftilt 3 | 2f | 38f |
Ftilt 1-3 | 6f, 13f, 18f | 54f |
Utilt | 8-14f | 35f |
Dtilt | 3-4f | 19f | 25% trip rate
Fsmash | 24f | 42f | Charge frame 20f
Usmash | 8f, 12f, 17f | 50f | Charge frame 4f
Dsmash | 4f, 9f | 37f | Charge frame 1f
Dash Attack | 7-11f | 32f |

Aerial | Active | FAF | Landing Lag | Autocancel | Notes
Nair | 6-20f | | 20f | <6f f> | 6-7f strong hit, 8-20f weak hit
Fair | 9f, 12f, 15f | 45f | 20f | <2f 44f> |
Bair | 7-8f, 13-14f, 20-21f | 51f | 18f | <7f 40f> |
Uair | 6f | 25f | 20f | <6f 24f> |
Dair | 4f | 27f | 22f | <4f 26f> |

Grab | Active | FAF | Notes
Grab | 7-8f | 32f |
Dash Grab | 9-10f | 39f |
Pivot Grab | 9-10f | 39f |

Throw | Active | FAF | Notes
Fthrow | | |
Bthrow | | |
Uthrow | | | 7% contact damage to anyone in the way when descending with heavy knockback.
Dthrow | | |
Pummel | 4f | | 3%

Mach Tornado | Active | FAF | Landing Lag | Notes
| 12-42f | 96f | 30f | No mashing (mashing adds up to ~30f?). Has a fixed amount of end lag regardless of ground/air. Incurs landing lag if landing after end lag is over.

Drill Rush | Active | FAF | Landing Lag | Notes
| 25-68f | 99f | 27f | Has a fixed amount of end lag regardless of ground/air. Incurs landing lag if landing after end lag is over.

Shuttle Loop | Active | FAF | Landing Lag | Notes
| -f, -f | 46f | 30f |

Dimensional Cape | Active | FAF | Landing Lag | Notes
No attack | 13-40f | 60f | | Has a fixed amount of end lag regardless of ground/air. Incurs landing lag if landing after end lag is over.
Any attack | 13-30f , 35-xxf | 94f | 29f | Has a fixed amount of end lag regardless of ground/air. Incurs landing lag if landing after end lag is over.

Dodge | Active | FAF | Notes
Forward roll | | |
Back roll | | |
Spot dodge | | |
Air dodge | | |

 

[daedgaem]

Nice post. Now let's just hope someone else makes a frame data table for the other characters.
I am already looking forward to see bowse-... wait, I meant Meta Knight will compare in landing lag.

 

[Lavani]

Well if it's just landing lag you wanted to know about, we've had that since early in the 3DS version's life.

 

[Golden Sun]

I love MK, but his lag is too unbearable, and he doesn't stand a chance again a good fox user, unless you use his moves right, but fox has almost no lag on all of his moves(most of his moves) and his rolls are fast.

 

[daedgaem]

Well if it's just landing lag you wanted to know about, we've had that since early in the 3DS version's life.

Thanks m8. le upboated

 

[warionumbah2]

I love MK, but his lag is too unbearable, and he doesn't stand a chance again a good fox user, unless you use his moves right, but fox has almost no lag on all of his moves(most of his moves) and his rolls are fast.

Name moves that lag please especially the ones you use frequently. Him not standing a chance against a good Fox player isn't MK fault its the player. As you said use your moves right MK has a high skill ceiling unlike Brawl so seeing negative posts about him is adorable and understandable.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This works with Kirby and Charizard as well but time Megaman's Crash Bomb right and you can Uthrow him and kill both of yourselves at the same time. After you get bombed just count 123 Uthrow and bask in your glory.

 

[Macchiato]

Does anyone else use down throw Then try to get a Mach tornado at high percents for a kill?

 

[Golden Sun]

Does anyone else use down throw Then try to get a Mach tornado at high percents for a kill?

Wouldn't they get knocked back much further? what i usually do in the start of a match is grab them, try and get a pummel, down throw, then use up-b, its a 83% they'll get hit with the 2 slashes, then you can fast free fall down, usually starts at 0%

 

[Macchiato]

Wouldn't they get knocked back much further? what i usually do in the start of a match is grab them, try and get a pummel, down throw, then use up-b, its a 83% they'll get hit with the 2 slashes, then you can fast free fall down, usually starts at 0%

Yes but against characters with poor landing options, it's pretty effective.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tornado is pretty good when you conditioned your opponent to airdodge. It's still a risky move.

 

[Afro Smash]

Having only recently picked up Metaknight, gotta say Dimensional Cape is hella fun, I particularly like baiting get up attacks then punishing with DC :]

 

[warionumbah2]

Nado is risky against characters with decent mobility, so long as you mix up your landing you should avoid a punish. Nado beats Sonics spin dash and Yoshi's egg roll by the way.

 

[Katakiri]

So I found out that it's really fun to gimp Pac-Man.

The idea is too force him to recover deep (which works in most other MUs for him) and just steal the 3rd bounce of his trampoline so he falls through.

On another note, I'm going to this tournament on the 16th: http://smashboards.com/threads/jan-...-with-2000-in-pot-bonuses-toledo-ohio.384587/
It's gonna be streamed apparently so you might catch me playing if I don't choke early on. Pretty confident I'll do well tho. Only M2K has me spooked but I've been studying him a bit over the week as well as some of the other named players that I haven't played already.

 

[Lavani]

So I found out that it's really fun to gimp Pac-Man.

The idea is too force him to recover deep (which works in most other MUs for him) and just steal the 3rd bounce of his trampoline so he falls through.

On another note, I'm going to this tournament on the 16th: http://smashboards.com/threads/jan-...-with-2000-in-pot-bonuses-toledo-ohio.384587/
It's gonna be streamed apparently so you might catch me playing if I don't choke early on. Pretty confident I'll do well tho. Only M2K has me spooked but I've been studying him a bit over the week as well as some of the other named players that I haven't played already.

Gimping Pac-Man is the best part of smash 4. It's actually safe for everyone to do, even Little Mac; stealing the trampoline refreshes all your jumps, so anyone can make it back after stealing the bounce.

Good luck at the tournament! Show 'em what Meta Knight can do!

 

[Deleted member]

Good luck at the tournament today @ Katakiri ! Will definitely be watching.

 

[Pazzo.]

So I found out that it's really fun to gimp Pac-Man.

The idea is too force him to recover deep (which works in most other MUs for him) and just steal the 3rd bounce of his trampoline so he falls through.

On another note, I'm going to this tournament on the 16th: http://smashboards.com/threads/jan-...-with-2000-in-pot-bonuses-toledo-ohio.384587/
It's gonna be streamed apparently so you might catch me playing if I don't choke early on. Pretty confident I'll do well tho. Only M2K has me spooked but I've been studying him a bit over the week as well as some of the other named players that I haven't played already.

Good luck! Show em that Meta Knight still has some game.

 

[Oblivion129]

Good luck @ Katakiri ! Rooting for you to win and have a learning experience!

The stream is up if you guys want to see RTGN.TV
I have no idea how Katakiri is doing, though.

Edit: He lost to Boss in winner's quarters I believe, but had a really even match.