Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think we will likely see a wave of new MKs over time but I think most of them won't stick around after they realize how much work he is. I'm sure we'll acquire a few dedicated faces but I'm not expecting these boards to ever grow very popular (which is fine with me - idc).

 

[W.A.C.]

I've seen at least two notable players state they think Meta Knight might potentially be a top tier now. (Angel Cortez and Thinkaman) If other players start believing that or just realize the character's amazing potential, it'll results in new players maining the character. Once Ito came back to NorCal and established massive dominance over the region with a character no other top player mains, people took notice across the country and I started seeing more notable players talk about Ito on Twitter. Then MK got buffed and suddenly his viability shot up a lot. The bat's future looks bright.

 

[warionumbah2]

I just want another Ito in another region, doubt that'll happen though. MK isn't a pocket character from what i'm seeing, nor is he a good secondary either.

But that's just me. Maybe Tyrant will actually improve his pocket MK now that people are jumping off the Diddy train.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I will become the next "Ito".

 

[W.A.C.]

I just want another Ito in another region, doubt that'll happen though. MK isn't a pocket character from what i'm seeing, nor is he a good secondary either.

MK is one of Rosalina's worst matchups and even Dabuz acknowledged that before the 1.06 patch took place. In tristate, players are regularly destroyed by Dabuz and Diddy Kong can't fight that matchup well at all anymore because his up air is now ****, so some players who stick with Diddy with need a secondary. Angel Cortez has picked up Meta Knight as a secondary for that reason because he feels Meta Knight obliterates Rosalina. If a player like him manages to accomplish that in the most competitive region in the country against the best Rosalina player in the world, a lot of people might pick up Meta Knight as a secondary for that matchup alone. Hell, he said on Twitter that he feels "Ito would destroy dabuz."

But that's just me. Maybe Tyrant will actually improve his pocket MK now that people are jumping off the Diddy train.

Who knows. I honestly feel Meta Knight is probably better than Diddy Kong at this point, so the fact his main got nerfed hard and his secondary got buffed could influence who he mains in the future. He mentioned in the past that he would only consider picking up Project M again if Meta Knight got buffed in that game, so the fact MK got buffed in Smash 4 instead might influence Tyrant to take MK more seriously. He plays Meta Knight frequently in friendlies, but rarely in tournaments, so it's certainly not a character he rarely practices.

 

[warionumbah2]

Its only a slight advantage. :/

I just don't want MK to be top tier, people will flock to him which i don't like. A pocket MK gets obliterated most of the time and he's not a character that suits that role due to his skill floor and ceiling.

Maybe its cuz i've yet to see a good pocket MK in action.

 

[Amadeus9]

Well, it's like this:

You look at the current top tiers, they all have moves with very high utility that cover multiple options or force reactions, and these moves are easy to throw and have high reward for landing. MK does not really have this, his utility is pretty low, matches tend to be polar and momentum based where MK either has the momentum or doesn't. He doesn't really have anyway to force an opponent into a bad option, he has to wait for the bad option to present itself. What makes him so great is that he capitalizes on those mistakes really damn hard. But because he cannot easily force bad options, and relies on outplaying his opponent, (which he definitely has all the tools he needs to do, just hard) I just can't see him going top tier in his current state. He's definitely very strong though.

 

[Dabuz]

In theory MK destroys Rosa, I HOPE Angel picks up MK though so if I fight Ito I will know what's going on besides me getting bodied.

 

[warionumbah2]

Is Angels MK even gud?

 

[PUK]

Is Angels MK even gud?

We don't know if he even exist lol. But angel cortez is a good player, so whatever he takes he will quickly reach a great level

 

[W.A.C.]

Regarding Meta Knight's tier position, I don't consider him top tier AT ALL because of some very glaring flaws and disadvantages he has compared to many other characters in that game, plus his side and down special aren't even good moves. But he's easily high tier now thanks to the buffs and other balance changes.

In theory MK destroys Rosa, I HOPE Angel picks up MK though so if I fight Ito I will know what's going on besides me getting bodied.

Well fortunately for you, Diddy's nerfs are so hardcore that the Rosalina vs. Diddy matchup is probably Diddy's worst one now, so Angel feels forced to pick up a secondary. It's a complete reversal of 1.0.4. lol What do you think of the Diddy Kong nerfs in the latest balance patch anyways? Diddy's up air is sooooo bad now, omg... -_- Also, from what you've seen, what do you think of Ito as a player and Meta Knight's overall viability in the current metagame?

Is Angels MK even gud?

He just picked up the character and I don't think he has used Meta Knight in any tournaments yet. What's odd is that he feels Meta Knight's custom set 2211 is best used against Rosalina. No clue why that neutral special would potentially be a better option against Rosalina over Meta Knight's standard neutral special. I never see Meta Knight players ever use that custom at tournaments.

We don't know if he even exist lol. But angel cortez is a good player, so whatever he takes he will quickly reach a great level

With that player's potential, if he truly committed himself, I could easily see him becoming one of the top Meta Knight players in the country largely because his Diddy Kong is solid and Meta Knight has hardly any strong players using him.

 

[Dabuz]

Diddy is possibly top tier, definitely at least high tier now, MU isn't as bad as diddy players think it is but they are used to winning for free so don't expect them to adapt to a MU they lose in Kappa

MK is probably super viable now, i've heard MK players think he beats Sheik so...

 

[PUK]

He just picked up the character and I don't think he has used Meta Knight in any tournaments yet. What's odd is that he feels Meta Knight's custom set 2211 is best used against Rosalina. No clue why that neutral special would potentially be a better option against Rosalina over Meta Knight's standard neutral special. I never see Meta Knight players ever use that custom at tournaments.

i guess the custom tornado sends luma in tumble while only the last hit of the default does

 

[warionumbah2]

MK is probably super viable now, i've heard MK players think he beats Sheik so...

No he doesn't.


@ W.A.C. 1211 is the best custom to use against Rosalina, because lol http://i.imgur.com/yYa4NNt.gif

There's noticeable MKs but Ito is just on another level and he's getting the most exposure. MKs in Japan aren't impressive and the solid ones in US are overshadowed by the beaming light that is Ito.

 

[W.A.C.]

Diddy is possibly top tier, definitely at least high tier now, MU isn't as bad as diddy players think it is but they are used to winning for free so don't expect them to adapt to a MU they lose in Kappa

Possibly top tier? o_O That's surprising. His up air is now horrible, his grabs got nerfed hardcore again, and his down tilt has less hit stun. He got hit pretty bad and @ TSM ZeRo feels Diddy Kong is currently "-really bad- (in terms of winning a national with)".

MK is probably super viable now, i've heard MK players think he beats Sheik so...

Shiek definitely has the advantage, but much of what she can do to most of the cast flat out doesn't work on Meta Knight because of his six jumps and fantastic recovery. It's just really difficult for her to gimp him, but her neutral game is so much better and her needles can be a *****. lol

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

MK is probably super viable now, i've heard MK players think he beats Sheik so...

This is a fallacy. Maybe it's 50-50 but I think its more around 45-55. Not sure why people thought we ever beat Sheik tbh. We get camped out really hard in neutral, we just do really dumb things to her when we get punishes and having a great recovery/six jumps goes a long way in avoiding the dumb things that she can trap most characters in easier.

 

[warionumbah2]

This is a fallacy. Maybe it's 50-50 but I think its more around 45-55. Not sure why people thought we ever beat Sheik tbh. We get camped out really hard in neutral, we just do really dumb things to her when we get punishes and having a great recovery/six jumps goes a long way in avoiding the dumb things that she can trap most characters in easier.

Optimism my friend.

We basically take full advantage of rage cuz she ain't killing a careful MK below 150%, we can kill Sheik at 75% on BF max rage with DA into Shuttle loop.

i guess the custom tornado sends luma in tumble while only the last hit of the default does

Still hella dumb to get rid of his second best move. Rosalina is tall af so poking her shield is a must and the damage too.

1111 against everyone but Rosalina. You basically have no choice but to go 1211 against her, even though HSD is a SD button.

 

[Ghidorah14]

W.A.C. are you contractually obligated to mention diddy in every post you make or what? We get it, you're really upset about diddy not being EZ mode anymore. That's nice and all, but please save it for the diddy boards.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Diddy is possibly top tier, definitely at least high tier now, MU isn't as bad as diddy players think it is but they are used to winning for free so don't expect them to adapt to a MU they lose in Kappa

MK is probably super viable now, i've heard MK players think he beats Sheik so...

I mean, Rosalina has always been pretty amazing..... Unnecessary shot at my fellow monkey players.

 

[warionumbah2]

mfw guest number increased because ZeRo and Dabuz.

mfw people who never once came to MK boards start lurking because ZeRo and Dabuz.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

mfw guest number increased because ZeRo and Dabuz.

mfw people who never once came to MK boards start lurking because ZeRo and Dabuz.

My sides roflll

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Q Qazoo306 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPv0wg8T1Xg

MK vs Marth hope it helps. Use jab to cover get up options.

the jab edgeguard thing i usually use when theyre trying to choose a get up option because its pretty unreliable for me trying to hit people below stage though it does work sometimes. what i do is shield in front of (almost on top of) neutral get up position and then immediately unshield and buffer jab right when theyre about to pick an option. it covers them staying on the ledge which tornado doesnt + it sends them at a worse angle back off stage. if they pick drop down double jump and get hit by jab some characters are put in a really terrible position as well.

 

[Dabuz]

I mean, Rosalina has always been pretty amazing..... Unnecessary shot at my fellow monkey players.

Kappa

It's K, Rosa is going to keep getting nerfed until she is bottom tier in Japan yet top in America

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Kappa

It's K, Rosa is going to keep getting nerfed until she is bottom tier in Japan yet top in America

Rosa has like.... been nerfed in the way that you would mention a 'Slap in the wrist', the moment they actually nerf your character and add 10+ frames of lag to some of your moves, ruin a majority of setups, and essentially change how the character is played (Instead of simply changing the knockback of moves), then you can see the POV of a Diddy player nowadays.

Your jab was nerfed a bit in knockback.... Diddy's up air received 12 frames of lag, decrease in combo ability, nerfed growth knockback to render it useless for killing, shaved off range and nerfed the throw follow ups its been used on. LIst goes on. Not even comparable dude come on lol

edit: god dammit dude lol

 

[Katakiri]

Cutest Smash 4 couple confirmed. Just kiss already.

Anyway a lot of our old MUs have changed either via patches or the other characters metagames solidifying so, for now, take them with a grain of salt and we'll be re-discussing a lot them in the very near future. Thankfully the Rosalina MU is one that's only gotten better for MK since we last discussed it. It's obviously no walk in the park as Rosa's a very great character and her metagame has developed considerably since we last discussed her but still MK definitely has one of the easiest times against her in comparisons to the rest of the cast due to his bread & butter move swatting Luma away so easily and his movement options (air-speed, 5 mid-air jumps, & being a fast faller) making him hard to juggle. I don't think the MU ratio has changed but how the MU is played is a little easier on MK now.

Also congrats on the sponsor, ItoI! I'll see you at EVO!

I've spent the past couple weeks completely reinventing my MK from the ground up. In the process I've been killing old habits at the root, implementing MK's newly buffed moves fluidly into my gameplay, discovering new set-ups and mix-ups, putting a heavier mental focus on stage control with MK, and becoming much, much more patient. I definitely took a few pages from Ally's Mario's book and changed my decision-making to ignore free damage if it loses me stage control.

Saturday I took the new MK out for it's first tournament in two weeks, a custom moves tournament in Kentucky. I ran into their best Small Mii Brawler main, one that I never could beat previously, and, with no MU practice since we last fought, took the set pretty convincingly by quickly understanding mid-match "oh that's all I need to do, control mid-stage and keep Dash Attacks and Dash Grabs to a minimum to avoid risk." After the tourney we labbed the MU for a while and I changed his mind about the MU being like 80:20 Mii Brawler's favor to 50:50 even at worst for MK.

I haven't actually enjoyed playing as MK in a long while. The way I used to play him was exhausting and I was very much considering maining Mega Man or Charizard instead for a while since I actually enjoy those characters a lot. But this past two weeks off from tourneys helped me find what I was looking for in MK and helped me crush walls like Mii Brawler & Luigi that used to really get me so I'm actually enjoying this character again and it feels awesome.

Hopefully I can finally be deserving of the talk and hype other parts of the Midwest seem to give me. I was the Midwest's biggest fraud for like 2 months and I don't think anyone outside of Ohio noticed. 5th at Shuffle VII but then immediately I get 17th in MI & 5th in a local. Even discounting my fraud period (which is over now), for being 2nd best MK to ItoI, the skill gap is pretty dang real but I intend to close that gap before EVO.

Anyway, I got some threads to write-up since I have some free time.

 

[Dabuz]

Yoooooo, it has more endlag too? Diddy got bodied, deserves it for being broken before. Kappa

Real talk though, Diddy is still good but I don't agree with the nerfs in this patch either (as much I hate the character).

Rosa has been hit hard already though and this nerf wasn't a slap in the wrist (the previous nerf was). She can get nerfed a bit more and be fine, but only if the other top tiers (Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu ect.) also get small nerfs since right now Rosa has a sweetspot where even for all the MUs she wins, she goes even or loses to a bunch of characters as well.

 

[Bonk!]

Anywhere we can watch those game?

I'm intrigued by your story @ Katakiri and would love to see how you applied those fundamentals.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

@ Katakiri you'd better keep up the pace because I'm not far behind now Can't wait to see how you do at EVO! Rooting for you and @ItoI6!

 

[warionumbah2]

I remember when Ito was on the verge of dropping MK(well he actually did for a short time) but for different reasons, then he came back and started doing stuff we've been seeing now. Katakiri's next in line.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Ah so that's the secret!

Yeah guys. **** MK, I'm switching to uh.... .

EDIT: Okay I'm back to MK. Am I godlike now?

 

[Bonk!]

Ah so that's the secret!

Yeah guys. **** MK, I'm switching to uh.... .

EDIT: Okay I'm back to MK. Am I godlike now?

I'm triggered.

 

[Katakiri]

Anywhere we can watch those game?

I'm intrigued by your story @ Katakiri and would love to see how you applied those fundamentals.

I don't think much, if anything, from that tournament got recorded. While there was money on the line during the tourney, the point of the event was an invite-only get-together of Kentucky's players and helping everyone improve and get a better grasp on how to deal with custom moves. That and side-bets on Amiibo cockfighting (EASY MONEY). It was a stacked event tho so I got some great knowledge out of it. It feels great to actually be learning again.

Before I relearned MK, I felt like I hit a big wall with the character. I felt like MUs were my hurdle and I couldn't improve my MK anymore so I got super frustrated and picked up like 5 secondaries. But now I'm past where I was before and I still see room to grow and things I can improve on with MK himself, not just MUs. It's super exciting!

@ Katakiri you'd better keep up the pace because I'm not far behind now Can't wait to see how you do at EVO! Rooting for you and @ItoI6!

Thanks dude! I'm not stopping till I reach the top. Like before I was on that downward part of Shuttle Loop, but now I'm in that second loop and dragging Mii Brawlers to the blastzone.

Ah so that's the secret!

Yeah guys. **** MK, I'm switching to uh.... .

EDIT: Okay I'm back to MK. Am I godlike now?

Miiverse is a riot.

 

[Bonk!]

Has there been any word from Unknown? I know we don't like him atm, but I wanna see him get better since he has a lot of potential.

 

[Superbat]

Nope. He stopped going to Xanadu a while back.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm glad we can get pass this 'Luigi is hard' phase. All you gotta do against (and more) is run away and extend your lead if they do something punishable.

These guys get circle camped hard. Especially like good Lord she can't do ****. If we can time out or circle camp certain characters how do we not have the advantage? Against Luigi you'll need a stock lead if you wanna camp him since percent leads mean nothing after he gets a grab.

 

[Bonk!]

It's not a phase, mom!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Right now I'm at a different phase of progression. I know exactly what I need to focus on and as I go through my list, I see improvements. Watching Ito has helped me a lot. My main issue is MUs. Not necessarily knowing then but not psychic myself out. Most of my roadblocks are psychological right now but I think I know what I need to do focus on.

 

[Qazoo306]

@ Q Qazoo306 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPv0wg8T1Xg

MK vs Marth hope it helps. Use jab to cover get up options.

Thanks!

 

[Katakiri]

I'm glad we can get pass this 'Luigi is hard' phase. All you gotta do against (and more) is run away and extend your lead if they do something punishable.

These guys get circle camped hard. Especially like good Lord she can't do ****. If we can time out or circle camp certain characters how do we not have the advantage? Against Luigi you'll need a stock lead if you wanna camp him since percent leads mean nothing after he gets a grab.

Luigi might not be hard but he is exhausting to fight. How hard Luigi is depends on stock count more than anything. 3 stock, 8 minutes is very beneficial to Luigi. He's a bit like Wario, even if he's down a stock, all it takes is two or three good grabs or reads and he's reset the situation. The 8 minute timer specifically gives him more chances to make something happen. 2 stock, 6 minutes is ideal for the way we want to play against Luigi imo.

No doubt MK controls the pace of the match but MK has to work harder than Luigi overall since Luigi's punishes are so brutal but also so easy to pull off. It's a 50:50 MU that you have to play like it's a 30:70 MU. Again, it's just exhausting.

As for actually hard MUs: Custom Villager.

 

[Bonk!]

Villager is just an ordeal honestly. And that goes for any character. Like you said, we have to play that like it's a 30:70 MU.