Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[LostinpinK]

GL.
Just sharing something incredibly hilarious. I don't really post it for discussion since we're all better than that.
This world is full of (event)scrubs

 

[Trunks159]

If you're looking for a faster mach tornado in your life, perfect pivot tornado fits the bill.

 

[warionumbah2]

In defaults, anyone that isn't high tier loses to him. High tier he wins some and lose some and has some evens, does fairly well against top tiers a clear advantage against one and even with another. Mixed opinions between us but we can all agree that he doesn't have polerizing MUs.

I like to pretend customs don't exist, when I look at my old posts I smh so much.

If you're looking for a faster mach tornado in your life, perfect pivot tornado fits the bill.

This sounds useful, got any replays of you using it?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure Marth/Lucina outrange MK pretty hard and can play safe enough not to be caught with MK's bait-n-punish gameplan too often.

 

[warionumbah2]

Alot of characters outrange MK, its either even against Marf or in our favour imo. Customs he gets a stupid grab release, all Marf games result in long matches like D3.

I don't play Lucina but she's worse, the fact that her moves can be punished on block is a big advantage already.

When i play a defensive player i time their ass out, i learn to not get flustered when boring matches drag on. To an extent i suppose...

 

[ItoI6]

heres a cute trick falln showed me with characters with multijabs today. so you know if you multi jab and your back is to the ledge you will get forced off because the opponents body will slide you off right? as soon as you fall you can input basically anything and they will still have some stun from the hits.

so what mk can do when he predicts a neutral get up is roll so your back is to the ledge and hold A, and itll start to hit them when they neutral getup with no timing involved and after a second or so mk will naturally slide off. as soon as you land jab start mashing the B button or UpB and mk will buffer tornado or shuttle loop as soon as he slides off and its a true combo. a bit useless because just regular tornado above the ledge will cover the same thing but i thought it was interesting anyways. it may be useful to also cover some getup attacks that are very low to the ground like zero suits where a slightly raised nado whiffs but i think any uses are situational at best still. it would be a lot better if it guaranteed grounded and not aerial upb because aerial only kills at like 140-150% from the ground but its still kinda good i guess.

i think mk stomps marth and lucina because its so hard for them to land. grab release to custom upb sounds pretty bad though lol

falln made a video of it here u go https://youtu.be/g9V-d6EOFXQ?t=1m8s

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

That's nifty. Our multi jab is strange because of its range/angles. Against my Mario friend, one silly trick I like to do is multi jab in his F-Smash range and I know he'll try to Smash me for it so i can release the jab and the range will let me punish him before he can get his Smash out. I've done that to a few people in tournament as a troll option.

 

[warionumbah2]

That jab thing was discovered by a some reddit user ages ago, there's a vine somewhere on the MK board threads (most likely the move rating thread that isn't useful anymore) which had a MK demonstrate what Ito said.

It was overlooked it seems, not suprirsed since jab is rarely used and its kind of situational.

My point still stands, in default MK doesn't lose to anyone outside high tier. Marf and especially lucina aren't hard MUs unless you like to go yolo dash attack into super cool uair combos thats easy to do.

 

[Ulevo]

Something I've been doing lately that works well against characters like Donkey Kong that have poor vertical recovery is once I have the stock lead and have them off stage, I'll Drill Rush in to them and drag them downwards. If done correctly, you won't bounce and you will slide out before the final hitbox sends them flying. This is obviously a suicidal move, but it's nice to have to secure a stock against certain characters when you can afford to do so.

Also, Delfino is pretty ridiculous. If you manage to catch someone in the water for whatever reason, you can down air them and it will reset their timer in the water so they can't immediately jump out again. You can get five down airs in to a Mach Tornado this way.

@ Katakiri you were talking about getting a portable recording set up that does not require a laptop. What were you looking in to? I'm looking at possible recording set ups myself for the future.

 

[Trunks159]

@ warionumbah2 cant record it right now but the idea of it is that it basically starts up faster. The startup lag is used throughout the perfect pivot alowing the tornado to accelerate a little quicker than grounded. Its best when used offensively.

 

[Katakiri]

@ Katakiri you were talking about getting a portable recording set up that does not require a laptop. What were you looking in to? I'm looking at possible recording set ups myself for the future.

The AVerMedia C875 Live Gamer Portable http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B2IZ3B0/

It's pricey but seems very much worth it. I'm going to buy it some time down the line but I decided to hold off on buying it until I have myself fully established financially. I love putting up videos and replying to comments but I'm an artist/animator first and foremost (with decent income from Smash as well) so I don't want to have that $150 purchase bite me later on if my work equipment breaks or something since I'm very recently self-employed. I'm also going to EVO so that's a budgeting nightmare itself.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I use AverMedia for capturing as well. I have an earlier version of the one that Katakiri linked but it works super well. Cost me about $100. $160 for that newer version is pretty solid imo. I think the one I have also does the whole PC free mode but I need to look into how that works (will probably do it today since I forgot it had that until just now). Aver makes good products and they're more reliable/cheaper than Elgato imo ( I have owned Elgato products in the past). Love the button in the center. Makes things really hassle free.


EDIT: Oh. @ Katakiri I assume you will be @ Shuffle? If so, I would love to sit down with you and learn some things!

 

[Ulevo]

So, this thread just got bumped up the in the Competitive Discussion forum: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

It made me aware of some things I was not previously. For one, shield drop in this game is 18 frames if the shielding player is not hit while shielding, nearly 1/3 of a second. What makes this unique for us is while down air camping and forcing the opponent to shield we can simply drop down and reach for a grab. This technique is not really new per say, however the change in frames from Brawl to SWU is significant enough to warrant using this more than I think we do. Characters are able to cancel their shield with a jump squat, and therefor can use up special or up smash out of shield 1 frame after, but for any characters that do not have good out of shield options, I think this is a viable tactic and provides good justification from a frame data perspective to be mixing this up between dropping for a Mach Tornado and dropping for a grab.

 

[warionumbah2]

We need a stage discussion thread, its long overdue.

 

[Ulevo]

We need a stage discussion thread, its long overdue.

I don't think we'd need one. One of the advantages Meta Knight has as a character that other top and high tier characters do not I feel is flexibility of stage preference. I rarely find a stage Meta Knight does poorly on, though there are a few stages he would not use as a first choice, and he has a few abusive cases that should be banned away from him.

Delfino is his best stage in my mind. An intangible platform during transitions for sharking and Shuttle Loop shenanigans, high platforms for up throw kills, water provides free damage if anyone falls in, and transitions at areas like the Shine Gate, West Island and Pillars have probably the lowest blast zone ceilings in the whole game. I've killed people here at like 30%.

Halberd is probably 2nd best. An intangible base platform on the 1st transition, as well as a static platform that offers a kill from up throw at 130% ~ for mid weights, along with making his Shuttle Loop hit confirms extremely deadly. While Halberd does not provide kills as early as Delfino might, it provides consistency. I personally hate the 1st transformation 'cause reasons, but the 2nd transformation is great for us.

Town & City is the best starter excluding matchup considerations, and the stage we will want to play on in game 1 if we have the ability to most of the time. It has a low ceiling, and the platforms can provide up throw kill set ups at around 130% for mid weights, much like Halberd.

Battlefield is a personal favourite, and in certain match ups, specifically against heavy weights and characters with poor vertical game, it can be very abusive. The blast zones are larger, but it almost does not matter. Meta Knight has excellent fast fall speed, five mid air jumps, Dimensional Cape, and a really good air dodge. As such, he's able to maneuver through these platforms with relative ease, much more so than most characters. To add to this, we are able to shark through the platforms with up airs to poke through shields, and can follow up with Mach Tornado. This tactic is very hard to punish even if we fail to break through the shield due to the platform layout. To add to this, there are set ups and early % combos we can do here, like down throw - up smash - Shuttle Loop, that would normally get us punished on other stages, but are safe on Battlefield thanks to the pollution of the platforms. Finally, this is one of the easiest stages to stage spike on.

Duck Hunt is a pocket counterpick for us in my mind. Contrary to a lot of opinion, I don't think Meta Knight does poorly on wide, flat stages like Final Destination. He just plays differently. One of Meta Knights strengths is that it is very hard to kill him in neutral despite being so light because he's very hard to get ahold of. Adding open space only compounds this problem, particularly since Meta Knights kills come off of relatively safe hit confirms. Duck Hunt offers small but appreciated projectile interference, along with tree platforms that we can harshly abuse against certain characters with poor vertical options. If we ever get a lead on this stage, it becomes a literal nightmare for some characters to try and take control back as we can pseudo-circle camp the trees. On top of this, we reliably kill most characters past 100% with an up throw on these trees.

Stages I feel Meta Knight does not benefit from are Kong Jungle 64, Lylat Cruise, Wuhu Island, and Mario Circuit. Kongo Jungle is quite obvious given that it has the highest blast zones in the game. However, given the layout of the stage and the fact that base platform is intangible from the bottom up, there's some neat things we can do here. Lylat Cruise wasn't good before the Mewtwo patch in my opinion, and its even less of an ideal pick now. The stage is even easier for characters to recover on thanks to the ledge changes. While there are platforms for us to use, they do not interfere with characters descending back to the base stage like Battlefield does. This means we do not get the safety of the platforms with our early combos, and it is easier for characters to drop down while we're attempting to juggle them. The blastzone ceilings are high and the platforms are hard to use the alleviate that. Finally, Meta Knight likes to space himself very strategically in the air or on the ground when in neutral, and he often needs to be situated in what I would 'zone holes', or areas of space where we can remain safe from the opponent while still having an opportunity to dash in. Lylat's tilting screws with this a lot. I honestly hate this stage. Mario Circuit is decent, but the blastzones are identical to Battlefield and there are key moments in the stage where we do not have access to the top blastzone, so it shouldn't be our first choice by any means. Wuhu Island is kind of a nightmare. It's absolutely massive and very hard to kill from almost anywhere. The main advantage we have here is our speed, but in certain match ups that's not saying much.

Keep in mind that out of those stages, 2-3 of them are commonly banned, though that might change in the future.

 

[Trunks159]

So, this thread just got bumped up the in the Competitive Discussion forum: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/

It made me aware of some things I was not previously. For one, shield drop in this game is 18 frames if the shielding player is not hit while shielding, nearly 1/3 of a second. What makes this unique for us is while down air camping and forcing the opponent to shield we can simply drop down and reach for a grab. This technique is not really new per say, however the change in frames from Brawl to SWU is significant enough to warrant using this more than I think we do. Characters are able to cancel their shield with a jump squat, and therefor can use up special or up smash out of shield 1 frame after, but for any characters that do not have good out of shield options, I think this is a viable tactic and provides good justification from a frame data perspective to be mixing this up between dropping for a Mach Tornado and dropping for a grab.

You should read the second pg. There are a few counter arguments.
18 frames is important, but out of shield options like Diddys fair and Ness's nair still sort of mitigate this right? Dair doesnt have the priority it used to, so many will try to challenge it instead of block it. Unless im not understanding something.

 

[Ulevo]

You should read the second pg. There are a few counter arguments.
18 frames is important, but out of shield options like Diddys fair and Ness's nair still sort of mitigate this right? Dair doesnt have the priority it used to, so many will try to challenge it instead of block it. Unless im not understanding something.

but for any characters that do not have good out of shield options

 

[Trunks159]

@ Ulevo
Like? Diddy, Shiek, Pika, Sonic, Mario, Luigi,and many others have fast put of shield options. If you dont have good OOS options, should you be shielding MK's dair to begin with? I guess for those characters that don't have them it makes sense.

This info may be relevant, but I dont think our dair camping has anything to do with it.

 

[Ulevo]

It is relevant because the longer it takes to drop your shield the more of a grace window we have to drop grab. Even if these characters have safe out of shield options, that will not stop us from camping with down air. They will need to respect it most of the time. It just means that we need to be cautious if we decide to stop using down air in favor of a drop grab. Not all of those out of shield options are equal, either. Neutral air out of shield is great for Luigi for example, but it is not going to cover down air properly, so he needs to remain in shield. He can up smash, but then he leaves himself vulnerable to drop Mach Tornado. Some characters and instances will be easier to abuse than others, especially if we drop behind them.

I'm not saying this is a big thing, I'm just mentioning it because every piece of knowledge helps, and I was not aware we had this kind of a window to drop grab should we choose to and the opponent opts for a shield drop option.

 

[ItoI6]

battlefield sucks, it has a larger ceiling than sv and fd and you can slide off the top platform if you do grounded shuttle loop and cause you to miss the 2nd hit.

fd is actually ok because its very hard for people to land against mk and he usually doesnt have a lot of trouble with it.

sv is great because he can use the platform for camping, and having a moving platform makes fishing for tornado shield pokes safe if you drift the opposite way the platform is moving. the balloon is actually ****, ive missed dash attack-shuttle loops that would have combod because the hitlag of the balloon gave them enough time to airdodge. its only a small problem though.

town and city has same balloon problem but having a lower ceiling is still a great buff anyways. one of his best stages for that alone.

delfino is pretty good i think, but a significant problem is that when the stage starts moving up or down into transformations, it will sometimes cause the physics of shuttle loop to **** up because of the gravity and you will always whiff the 2nd hit. if your opponent is stuck in the water next to the blastzone, you can drill rush across the water's edge for an early kill, its better than dair in some scenarios. low ceilings on some transformations are pretty crazy which is also great.

halberd is probably his best stage

lylat is pretty great i think. mk has no autocancel aerials so the tilting doesnt bother him, he can camp on platforms, and other character's recoveries are given more problems.

i personally think duck hunt is a lame stage but its probably okay.

i dont think castle siege does anything for mk


probably ban battlefield and castle siege, its what i do

 

[Oblivion129]

I think Kongo Jungle is great. It lets you shark under the floor and all the platforms, and the form of the floor makes it weird for projectile spammers. It's also a lot safer to whiff a shuttle loop because of the middle rotating platforms.
Still, I haven't played much on it since it isn't legal in my region, but I like it so far.

I'd ban Castle Siege and BF/FD depending on the opponent.

 

[Ulevo]

battlefield sucks, it has a larger ceiling than sv and fd and you can slide off the top platform if you do grounded shuttle loop and cause you to miss the 2nd hit.

fd is actually ok because its very hard for people to land against mk and he usually doesnt have a lot of trouble with it.

sv is great because he can use the platform for camping, and having a moving platform makes fishing for tornado shield pokes safe if you drift the opposite way the platform is moving. the balloon is actually ****, ive missed dash attack-shuttle loops that would have combod because the hitlag of the balloon gave them enough time to airdodge. its only a small problem though.

town and city has same balloon problem but having a lower ceiling is still a great buff anyways. one of his best stages for that alone.

delfino is pretty good i think, but a significant problem is that when the stage starts moving up or down into transformations, it will sometimes cause the physics of shuttle loop to **** up because of the gravity and you will always whiff the 2nd hit. if your opponent is stuck in the water next to the blastzone, you can drill rush across the water's edge for an early kill, its better than dair in some scenarios. low ceilings on some transformations are pretty crazy which is also great.

halberd is probably his best stage

lylat is pretty great i think. mk has no autocancel aerials so the tilting doesnt bother him, he can camp on platforms, and other character's recoveries are given more problems.

i personally think duck hunt is a lame stage but its probably okay.

i dont think castle siege does anything for mk


probably ban battlefield and castle siege, its what i do

I think Battlefield just requires adaptation. You will miss Shuttle Loops if you snatch the platform after your first loop by mistake, but I've actually used this on purpose to net me kills I couldn't get otherwise. Since I've played on this stage so much I rarely have this happen to me on accident anymore. The cost that comes with having a higher blastzone I find is made up for in how easy it is to rack up damage with the platforms. Drop down Mach Tornado is really good here. I would probably never take a Sheik here though.

Castle Siege is interesting. I find a lot of the match is dictated on how well you can play the 1st transformation at the start of the match. If you can net a lead, you can be very irritating on the 2nd transformation. Up throws on to the left and right flags can set up for Shuttle Loop reads and sometimes Shuttle Loop combos if they DI towards you trying to avoid the blast zone. I wouldn't say the stage is great for Meta Knight but it isn't bad either. It does require adaptation though. A friend would counterpick this stage on me until I became accustomed to it.

I did not know you could kill on the water with Drill Rush like that on Delfino. Good to know.

 

[Superbat]

You both made terrible decisions today.

The dream is dead for Splatoon. Mii costume fighter confirmed. #FreeWolf instead

 

[warionumbah2]

The dream is dead for Splatoon. Mii costume fighter confirmed. #FreeWolf instead

Where did you get the info from?

 

[Superbat]

Smashboards home page. There was a splatoon direct today.
I kinda feel bad for the Splatoon supporters for smash. Nintendo made the splatoon dlc look really demonic.

 

[Trunks159]

Smashboards home page. There was a splatoon direct today.
I kinda feel bad for the Splatoon supporters for smash. Nintendo made the splatoon dlc look really demonic.

And there were a lot of them (me included).

The dream is dead for Splatoon. Mii costume fighter confirmed. #FreeWolf instead

Everyone is voting for . I'm 100% sure he'll be back.
Here's a poll:
http://www.gamespresso.com/2015/04/07/whos-leading-the-super-smash-bros-ballot/
, , Shovel Knight, King K. Rool, and Isaac are all up top (I guess). I think it's safe to say that Wolf, and Shovel Knight (especially Wolf) will be in.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for , since his defensive options are limited (besides the generic roll and shield) since he has no SH airial, keeping him moving as much as possible seems to be our best defense. Perfect pivoting works well for me as I can use it right when I get to the ground or even while dashing. MK's pp options are limited (like the rest of the cast), but pp up tilt, d smash, and mach tornado are all being experimented with. IDK, maybe something new will pop up.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll have to try pivot Mach Tornado.

I think Meta Knight defensively is very strong in neutral because we have five jumps, really good run speed, a very dangerous and safe forward smash, a teleport that can reset stage control, along with a threatening dash attack that is hard to punish. His defensive options when he is pressured though are not the best, but they're decent. Shuttle Loop out of shield is good so long as your opponent does not bait it out. We have up smash out of shield, and down air out of shield is decent too since it brings us back in the air. Neutral air out of shield kills. Down smash comes out on frame 4 in front of him and is alright out of a spot dodge.

 

[Trunks159]

I'll have to try pivot Mach Tornado.

I think Meta Knight defensively is very strong in neutral because we have five jumps, really good run speed, a very dangerous and safe forward smash, a teleport that can reset stage control, along with a threatening dash attack that is hard to punish. His defensive options when he is pressured though are not the best, but they're decent. Shuttle Loop out of shield is good so long as your opponent does not bait it out. We have up smash out of shield, and down air out of shield is decent too since it brings us back in the air. Neutral air out of shield kills. Down smash comes out on frame 4 in front of him and is alright out of a spot dodge.

I dont know, I think Metaknights neutral is lacking:
(about 50% of the cast) I think have better neutrals. They either have a short hop aerial or projectiles.

Metaknight cannot get in without the opponent making a mistake. Its just not likely. Dash attack an dash grab are good, but they are hard to pull off against a very cautious opponent. Metaknight is also just not very effective at close range. Metaknight really only has dtilt and ftilt which aren't very effective since they arent safe on sheild, and dtilt has limited range. He has no SH arial and risky out of shield options. You're better off just keeping your distance.

------
PP up tilt leads into up air strings and up b kills, and is harder to di.
On another note, is Pokemon Stadium Legal and if no why not?

 

[warionumbah2]

Alot of characters have better neutrals but that doesn't tip the MU in their favour because outside of top tiers alot of characters have a worse ground game.

Ground game

• OOS options
• Fast dash
• Good foxtrot
• Good dash grab
• Good dash attack

MK has all of those, his dash grab is basically Falcons but with less speed backing it up, his dash attack is one of if not the best in the game and both set up his kill moves.

Have all of the above ontop of sh aerials and a projectile. is the same but with poor damge per hit. Everyone else's neutral isn't dominant enough to pose a threat.

Edit: has the best ground game tho.

 

[Trunks159]

Alot of characters have better neutrals but that doesn't tip the MU in their favour because outside of top tiers alot of characters have a worse ground game.

Ground game

• OOS options
• Fast dash
• Good foxtrot
• Good dash grab
• Good dash attack

MK has all of those, his dash grab is basically Falcons but with less speed backing it up, his dash attack is one of if not the best in the game and both set up his kill moves.

Have all of the above ontop of sh aerials and a projectile. is the same but with poor damge per hit. Everyone else's neutral isn't dominant enough to pose a threat.

Hey your preaching to the choir. I know that doesn't determine the matchup, I'm simply saying that overall, Metaknight's neutral is below average. MK may have some of the requirements, but he misses out on 2 of the most important: a short hop aerial, and a good jab/tilt. MK's neutral does not have a very safe approach besides dash attack (which is only moderately-very safe).

Where would you guys rate MK's neutral? Top 50%?

 

[Ulevo]

Alot of characters have better neutrals but that doesn't tip the MU in their favour because outside of top tiers alot of characters have a worse ground game.

Ground game

• OOS options
• Fast dash
• Good foxtrot
• Good dash grab
• Good dash attack

MK has all of those, his dash grab is basically Falcons but with less speed backing it up, his dash attack is one of if not the best in the game and both set up his kill moves.

Have all of the above ontop of sh aerials and a projectile. is the same but with poor damge per hit. Everyone else's neutral isn't dominant enough to pose a threat.

Out of this list I would even argue that Fox does not present much of a threat because what he gains in the neutral regarding those aspects he loses in priority. You throw out a hitbox and suddenly Fox has problems. He's not like Captain Falcon where he can throw out hitboxes and have it work, or dash grab you from a million miles away. Fox needs to be very careful to utilize his neutral options where as Sheik and Falcon, who play similarly close quarters (minus needle camping) have a much larger room for error.

Not having short hop aerials in neutral is not the end of the world for a character that has what Meta Knight has. I think you're really overvaluing that, @ Trunks159 . Also, down tilt is a really good move. It's a disjointed frame 3 move that trips. It's not as good as it was in Brawl, but the people who keep going back to how good Meta Knight was in Brawl to establish how good of a character Meta Knight is now are the same people that typically think he's a bad character.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ftilt is actually really good, walking up to someone and using Ftilt 1 and 2 is safe on shield.

Ftilt 3 has good range and the way MK swings his sword allows him to stop aerial approaches such as.

All of their sh aerials
His uair,bair and dair. I think his Fair beats our Ftilt since its disjointed. Not sure.
His Fair,Nair and Dair. Bair has good enough range to get us i think. But Ftilt is a good move up in this MU.

If Ftilt had slightly less end lag this would be a dangerous move and make other MKs actually use this more.Empty hopping is also good as a mixup approach option, we can turn around grab or tornado on them.

I forgot to add rolls and spotdodges on the ground game requirements. Oh well MK has those too.

Dtilt is great. MK he can copy what Diddy does and Dtilt --> Roll --> Dtilt. Also spotdodge into Dtilt is good since once again MK has a good spotdodge. Frame 3 close quarter move is always good.

The most useless tilt is Utilt, even Jab is more useful with that ledge tech(funny how its discovered now when it was posted here early Feb). Anyway his neutral isn't good i won't rate it but its not good, but his ground game is one of the best in the game along with literally nothing but top tiers.

I just wanted to point out that unless you main the characters i listed(other than Fox), you won't dominate us in neutral.

 

[Ulevo]

Up tilt is not useless. It has presence. Characters avoid me like the plague when dropping down from above because they know there is absolutely no hope in out prioritizing it. If they challenge it, they lose. Only moves that come close to this one are Rosalina's up tilt and Zero Suit Samus's up smash.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of forward tilt. I acknowledge it's uses though.

On an unrelated note:

https://twitter.com/aMSaRedyoshi/status/596077588151291904?s=09

Personally I think Fox isn't even top 10. I think he's overrated given his performance and player perceptions. I can see him doing worse as people learn to exploit him. Thoughts?

 

[Trunks159]

Hmm, Metaknight's objective (at least mine) is to get out of the neutral. So in the process, I throw out dairs and hop around, dashing back and whatnot, trying to throw off my oppenents spacing. When I see an opening, or when I know my approach (dash attack, dash grab, mach tornado) is safe I go in and juggle for as long as I feel safe doing. My offstage defense is also crucial. If I just play a game of footsies the whole time, I may become prey to some other characters' crazy exploits, like jabs from , or a throw from , or an ftilt from . Since I don't have anything that could consistently deal damage and is pretty much risk free, I'm not going to put myself through the trouble. If is not given his space, he's at a disadvantage.

Ftilt is okay. It deals 7 dmg and leads to nothing. It would be better if you never got in the situation in which you had to use ftilt.

Edit @ Ulevo Well whose top ten:
are all pretty much safe in the top 10. Its up for discussion whether we put , so I guess I'll put up there. Problem with may be some of his matchups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcXZ1Qmv-fI
Pretty good stuff.

 

[Ulevo]

Within top 10, I'm confident in

I feel as though the contenders for the 10th spot,

Of those characters, I feel Meta Knight is deserving of the 10th spot the most excluding maybe Captain Falcon. The other contenders have specific flaws to their game that hold them back more than I feel Meta Knight's flaws do. Captain Falcon should have obvious flaws he's had since forever, but he's gotten a lot of free passes this time around due to poor design choices.

This is vanilla, keep in mind.

 

[warionumbah2]

Utilt only has one use though, even then MK has other options to catch landings such as DA and Ftilt both being able to send them back up.

Utilt is useless outside of that. Ftilt can stop approaches,catch landings and put characters in a bad position which MK can capitalize on depending on their air speed.

Ftilt is a get off me tool, or force opponents off stage. Not using this against Yoshi when he's pressing loads of buttons is asking for trouble. Utilt leads to nothing, at low percents it leads into another Utilt i guess.

MK shines in vallina but not customs, doesn't help that our custom meta isn't growing cuz all of us don't care about it(Kata hating it lol).

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I've got a weekly tournament to conquer today. Wish me luck! There will be vids!

 

[Ulevo]

Up tilt can poke through platforms and is a better punish than up smash on certain stages like Battlefield. It's also more reliable than up smash at challenging vertical descents. Those are its main uses. Jab has...no real use that can't be covered by another option 99% of the time. At least up tilt does what it does best given the circumstance.

The problem I have with forward tilt is what exactly do you get out of this move? 7% and you pop them up and away? If you're spacing in neutral, your primary tools on the ground are forward smash, forward tilt, and down tilt, with hitbox size and priority in that order. Forward smash does 16% damage by itself and kills people at higher % if it lands. It's incredibly hard to punish since you can react out of it almost instantly, and even if a player shields it, most characters cannot drop shield punish in most circumstances thanks to the shield push. It's a very low risk, very high reward move that dissuades people from coming in to your zone. Down tilt is frame 3, and while it only does 5%, it sets up trip combos, sliding mix ups, and tumble state kill states. Forward tilt is slower than down tilt, only marginally longer, and is largely outclassed by forward smash when you're occupying a specific range in neutral. As far as a 'get off me' tool goes, down smash is better, dealing the same damage as a full forward tilt combo, sending them at an awkward angle usually accompanied by an edge guard, and it comes out at frame 4.

The best use I see for forward tilt is surprising people with the third hit's extended range, using it as a shield drop option in situations I'm afraid to commit to down smash in, and covering spot dodges in some situations where Mach Tornado is not viable. In all other instances I'd rather just resort to forward smash or down tilt for their given uses. It's also worth noting that by relying on forward smash in neutral you're psychologically conditioning the enemy in to disrespecting the move since you're using it so much. This allows them to get comfortable with the move and leads to random forward smash kills. So this is another reason I like relying on that move more.

I think part of it is a style difference too. Maybe there are circumstance forward tilt is objectively better at that I'm not seeing. It's good, I just think its overrated. A question I have is what is the frame data for the move duration for forward smash and forward tilt? How soon can you react out of forward tilt 1, 2, and 3 versus forward smash? Those are things to consider.

 

[Trunks159]

Within top 10, I'm confident in

I feel as though the contenders for the 10th spot,

Of those characters, I feel Meta Knight is deserving of the 10th spot the most excluding maybe Captain Falcon. The other contenders have specific flaws to their game that hold them back more than I feel Meta Knight's flaws do. Captain Falcon should have obvious flaws he's had since forever, but he's gotten a lot of free passes this time around due to poor design choices.

This is vanilla, keep in mind.

I don't see up there. are all a above putting him @ around #13. MK's neutral just isn't good enough. TBH, I put up around MK, (especially with customs). That's a whole different thing though. I think we're a little biased though since we all there is to know about , and not as much about the others.

I agree on the F-Tilt. Its kinda just not very good. Up tilt has a use and it combos into up air strings but it still isn't that great. PP up tilt is a little better.

@ ZTD | TECHnology I expect no less than 1st place from you!

 

[Ulevo]

I don't see up there. are all a above putting him @ around #13. MK's neutral just isn't good enough. TBH, I put up around MK, (especially with customs). That's a whole different thing though. I think we're a little biased though since we all there is to know about , and not as much about the others.

I might be wrong about R.O.B. since he seems to be one of those very good characters that suffers from match up cases. I do not think Ness, Fox, and Mario are better. Ness is too dependent on his PK Fire and grab game, and makes his neutral very one dimensional, similar to how Meta Knight would be if he didn't have some of the other options available to him. Mario is terrible at kill confirming. Fox I think is better than the former two but again he has weaknesses people are not exploiting. A lot of his neutral game is unsafe, his recovery is not being exploited, et cetera.

I think Marth being anywhere near Meta Knight is absolutely hilarious, honestly. They're not even in the same league. Marth is bad. You want any references just go ask the Marth boards. Customs do change that quite a bit, though.