The Metagame, level by level.

[PaperstSoapCo]

Current level discussion: Open discussion.

Ganon level teirs;
...God...
Battlefield
...Top...
Dreamland
Yoshi
Pokemon stadium
...Mid...
Final destination
FoD

We all know that ganon is complemented by BF platforms and ledge. Dreamland also is great with DJ platform dashes but there's a lot more.

In an attempt to get Gannon's meta game up a notch what stage specific strats do you guys use? Feel free to mention any and all.

Figure we could start with Dreamland. DJ ledge dash is the only technical plus I see in this stage. DIing up on this stage is also a great option on this stage.

 

[Superspright]

Battlefield he can waveland the bottom platforms then waveland the top and edge-cancel if he holds opposite the direction he wavelanded from. It's good for baits, and also you can do dair->bair or dair->uair on opponents who hang out under platforms.

But Dreamland is a bad stage for Ganon. It's way too open, and the platforms are not conducive to his wavelanding game. A full back jump can no-impact land him on platforms (highly underused) but it makes the timing tight to waveland on, and full jumping forward can do the same thing but is of a different timing. DJing and wavelanding is easier, but you can't do it safely if your opponent is nearby. If you get hit, then you die.

I hate dreamland for that reason. I can't do any of my good tricks on that map because it's just too slow for Ganon. It's like FD in a lot of ways and the space on the map can get controlled really well by other players--not by us.

Battlefield is arguably good for us if you can waveland perfectly on that map everything is accessible. Especially combos high up if you waveland all the way up to the top platform then off for a fair/bair. Dreamland is slow. Battlefield is medium speed--Yoshi's is his best stage hands down. Randall saves his life if he's used right, and he can always edge-cancel platforms if done perfectly, and he can edge-cancel his up-b if done right off of ledge-drop. He gets a huge speed boost on that map, and he can apply pressure nearly the entire time.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

dreamland platforms are best to side B edge cancel on. if the wind is blowing with or against you though, it won't edgecancel right. you'll either fall off or not make it to the end of the platform in the air.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

dreamland platforms are best to side B edge cancel on. if the wind is blowing with or against you though, it won't edgecancel right. you'll either fall off or not make it to the end of the platform in the air.

That's interesting. Gonna test and see if during a side b and down b cancel on the edge of a platform can be ledge canceled by the wind blowing you off the platform. Would be a cool fake out if it works.

Dreamland doesn't have as many little maneuver gimmicks but it sure let's good DI last long. Also platdashes are great for staying above your opponent.

Gonna update first post when I get a chance. Unless anyone has some cool ideas for dreamland I guess we can move the stage topic over to Battle field.

Wanted to save that stage topic for last cause there is soo much you can do there. Well when I fix the first post I'll put what I know on BF.

 

[Superspright]

dreamland platforms are best to side B edge cancel on. if the wind is blowing with or against you though, it won't edgecancel right. you'll either fall off or not make it to the end of the platform in the air.

I'd argue it's actually Yoshi's/FoD. FoD can be edge-cancelled and then Air Jump back and edge-cancel again...rinse repeat ad infinitum. Yoshi's is super easy to edge-cancel on and also to side-b edge-cancel on. No one has been doing the Randall edge-cancel off of a wizkick from center stage, yet.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

That randal wizards foot thing sounds awesome.

There are so many techs on BF. that being said I'll just make a list.
•RLD are easiest on this stage since your forward momentum on BF edges are best.
•The platforms are close enough and low enough that you can RLD and ledge hop run off double jump to platform dash. It's a great option to get around an anxious opponent or platform dash back towards the edge.
•On the top platform you can sideb and during your sideb hold the opposite direction that way when you land on the lower platform you will ledge cancel. Great mind game.
•If you go to any lower platform and roll towards the edge you can press down to fall through the platform. As soon as you press down hold towards the edge and you will edge cancel any aerial EVERYTIME! Easy technique and you can choose to cancel an aerial into an edge hog/other aerial or double jump after the cancel and platform dash/insert mind game here.

Sure I might be missing something but that's all I have for BF.

 

[-ACE-]

BF and YS:
You can waveland off a lower platform to aerial offstage, and dj waveland onto the floor level or waveland off into aerial. Situationally good mindgame.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Ace that's a pretty nice mind game. Gonna try and just compile a list for bf, fd, yoshi and pokemon. Basically gonna be a vid with a list of all possible techs you can do on the stage.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

...God...
Battlefield
...Top...
Dreamland
Yoshi
Pokemon stadium
...Mid...
Final destination
FoD

Current Ganon level teir list based on techs ganon is capable of on the level compared to its size for survivability. Discuss and feel free to add more levels.

 

[Renth]

Might go to noob4. I only dislike PS and FD

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Please go. I have some new techs Ive been mastering for the tournament and Id love to trade some ideas with you.

 

[Renth]

I havent played since apex had a bad performance and if i can find cheap air fare from pennsylvania i will come

 

[-ACE-]

Everyone hates FD!!! Haha are there any matchups where you guys don't mind FD?

For me: Jiggs, Peach, Marth, Pikachu, Mario, Doc, and Luigi I don't really mind, and may CP there depending on why I lost/who I'm playing against.

 

[Renth]

I only like to play FD in teams but If I had to think about match ups that wouldn't bother me so much.. Would be Marth, Peach, Jiggs.

Pretty much any match that doesn't require me to be excessively mobile, any match that is literally a zoning war FD is fine.

Also, When is everyone going to start chain grabbing cause literally none none of us do it, our character has enough flaws why not use something he has trololol.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I use it ask spidersense. But then he used it back on me!

Versus spacies I like to upthrow jcgrab if they DI away from me. If not its downB time. Ah!

 

[-ACE-]

Are you kidding Renth? I've been the strongest advocate for chaingrabbing on the Ganon boards for like almost 5 years LOL. I cg falco when he's over 70% all the time. I 0-death sheiks on the reg, and am virtually the only Ganon I've ever seen cg in dittos. We all should CG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL1t4bQbMs0#t=2m03s

Me getting ***** by some random scrubby falco. After 3 DI away's I thought he might switch it up and go behind so I'd have a free bair from the uthrow. Falco's best decision is keep DI'ing away like he did... DI behind is just too easy to punish off the uthrow... and DI away can't be punished without platforms. But once you get him to about 130% he's toast (dthrow to down-B in either direction).

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

ACE Im gonna try to practice WDing to ftilt/instant dash attack in those situations. Wonder if sideb is a viable option there too.

 

[-ACE-]

Once you get to the percent that the uthrow to bair (if they DI behind) is mad easy, I don't think there's anything that could connect. If only the mexican truck (down-B) had a little more gas.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

At around 60 you can uthrow to downB and it is a legit combo, check it on training mode. Also the other night I was chain grabbing a falco and noticed that if I uthrow to regrab and switch it to dthrow his DI outward became nothing more than an other regrab. I think elaborate chain grabbing with ganon is something to look into. Got 5 grabs before I dropped him but it was pretty fun to watch.

 

[-ACE-]

You're never guaranteed the regrab from a uthrow though (DI away). Dthrow you can always regrab if you're fast enough.

 

[DippnDots]

So I've kind of retired my Ganon, but I hope you all still accept me. This thread though plays into the reason I had for switching mains. It really seems like Ganon just has a big bag of tricks to compensate for his lack of "stats"

I think you guys should focus on his strengths on these stages first without the fancy shmancy tech skill tricks.

How the different platform heights affect his zoning, edgeguarding, and camping capabilities. Though the above mentioned tech skill tricks are definitely worth investigating as they do relate to his full potential on these stages, I feel like a lot of tricks mentioned while cool and may trick someone who hasn't seen it before won't yield the most optimal results as simple solid fundamental play would against more seasoned players.

~Two cents


Edit: Perhaps though, to the more veteran Ganon's who already have firm fundamentals this is your way of breaking onto that next level from whatever skill plateau you're on. This is good and all, but to newer players it may seem that Ganon should focus primarily on specific tricks instead of fundamentals.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

You're never guaranteed the regrab from a uthrow though (DI away). Dthrow you can always regrab if you're fast enough.

I know which is why if you get a regrab on a spacy off a uthrow you can downthrow and catch them DIing away for a easier chain grab.

uthrow loses to DI away, any other DI is changrab or downb. dthrow can chain grab any direction. its about switching it up to get a specific DI. Its just an idea to get into your opponents head.

 

[-ACE-]

Dipn I think success with Ganon just comes with straight practice. It doesn't matter how good your spacing, zoning, punishment, etc. if you miss a waveland and give your opponent a free hit (stock is gone). Practicing normal tech skill is where it's at. Also, making smart decisions from the edge, knowing when to roll, etc. Gotta play it safe.

Tommy, yeah I see what you mean. To me the dthrow cg isn't that bad after 70% or so. Below 70% I pretty much have to guess and that uthrow regrab would make it so I wouldn't have to. You could probably uthrow again in some cases and they will have switched to DI behind lol talk about frustrating them.

 

[Superspright]

I can chaingrab any of the characters, and shiek is a joke. I just have a little trouble with Ganon because of the lag on the dthrow, but I'll get it. It's extremely easy for me because I use claw, and I use c-stick down for dthrow so I just smash a direction and regrab. None of the chaingrabs are technically that difficult. Understanding the nuances in the reads is the problem.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

My choices when CGing is Left/x+z or Right/x+z. Ganon has some odd timings in his techs that gives him an awkward play rhythm.

 

[-ACE-]

The key to chaingrabbing for me (and I have seen much success here) is keeping my eye on Ganon at all times. I can easily monitor my opponents' DI with my peripherals. Be it forward, away, no DI, or partial DI. Partial DI takes some practice (sheik... it's harder to master than most people think... play a sheik that is smart with dthrow DI... there aren't many), but if you keep your eyes on Ganon you will always know exactly when the throw animation ends and react immediately. Hitting dash too soon was actually my biggest problem (dthrow animation hadn't ended yet) when I wanted to pivot + jc grab. That went away when I kept my eyes on Ganon. This is crucial for getting the regrab at 0% on (not only fox and falco, but) the heavy ones (Ganon, Link, Bowser(lol), and DK in the low 20's when he DI's behind). Those are the most difficult imo (aside from the obvious FOX, and then falco). If you can cg Level 1 Bowser CPU 0-death first try, You are a BOSS. Try it. They always DI behind. Once you have that down it helps, but that only gets you used to the heavies I just mentioned... Chaingrabbing itself is a super deep strategy with more ins and outs than anyone would think of before trying it. Magus's thread on chaingrabbing is seriously one of the biggest contributions to these boards... and the ONLY thread that I can't go a year without referencing at least once. Check it!

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

The key to chaingrabbing for me (and I have seen much success here) is keeping my eye on Ganon at all times. I can easily monitor my opponents' DI with my peripherals. If you keep your eyes on Ganon you will always know exactly when the throw animation ends and react immediately.

Exactly. Never read Magus' thread but Im sure to be looking for it.

 

[-ACE-]

It's pure gold.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=85582