The Master of C-sticking

[Sky Pirate]

Spoiler

Okay, wanted to post this before my 12-hour caffeine high wore off.

Next up in the "Get that quick info" series, moves!
-Please post the best moves in each match-up along with a brief explanation if you can.
-B-moves must be accompanied by a non-B move.
-Feel free to call me an idiot as long as you provide a good reason for doing so (related to the topic).
-If anyone needs an elaboration, please let me know.
-Please limit it to 1-2 moves. Top tiers and difficult match-ups may get three, but that is the cut-off.
-My apologies for the general ugliness of this right now. T_T


?= Unsure


Metaknight: Fsmash, Usmash, UpB

Snake: Grab
Diddy: Pikmin Toss, Fsmash
Falco: Grab
Ice Climbers: Fsmash, Grab
Marth: Stutterstepped Fsmash
Wario: Grab, Pikmin Toss

King DDD: Grab, Pikmin Toss
Pikachu: Everything?
Olimar: Fsmash, Pikmin Toss?
Lucario: Grab, Fsmash, Fair
Mr. G&W: Pivot Grab, Pikmin Toss

Pit: Pikmin Toss?
Toon Link: Pikmin Toss, Fair, Usmash
Zero Suit Samus: Fsmash
Kirby: Pivot/Shield Grab, Fsmash
ROB: Pikmin Toss, Grab-Uair/Usmash?

Donkey Kong: Pivot Grab, Pikmin Toss
Peach: Fair, Pikmin Toss
Fox: Stand under platform? (XD)
Luigi: Grab
Wolf: ?

Sheik: Fsmash?
Squirtle: Pivot Grab
Ivysaur: SH Pikmin Toss, Fair
Charizard: Pikmin Toss, Grab
Sonic: Fsmash, Grab
Ness: Fair, Pivot Grab
Bowser: Pikmin Toss

Lucas: Pivot Grab, Fair
Ike: Pivot Grab
Yoshi: Up Smash, Forward Smash, Grab
Mario: Pivot Grab
Captain Falcon: Grab -> Smash
Samus: Pikmin Toss, Fsmash
Jigglypuff: Pikmin Toss, Fsmash, Fair?

Zelda: Fsmash?
Link: ?
Ganondorf: Standing/Pivot Grabs

Understand that match-ups cannot be won with these moves alone.
This is intended to help provide a general idea of the match-ups themselves (especially for the match-ups that generally go undiscussed).
If this thread fails, it was worth the effort if even a tidbit of info can be gleaned from it.

Spoiler

I also apologize for the terrible reference in the topic title.

 

[Dnyce]

Best thread ever - will post later.

EDIT: thread title should be "fsmash or grab?"

 

[-Vocal-]

Best thread ever - will post later.

EDIT: thread title should be "fsmash or grab OR SNORLAX BODY SLAM?"

Fixed

I think I'll wait and watch this one for the time being

 

[Dnyce]

Metaknight: upB fsmash

Snake: grab
Diddy: pikmin toss fsmash
Falco: pikachu
Ice Climbers: fsmash grab
Marth: Fsmash
Wario: Grab utilt?

King DDD: Grab, pikmin toss.
Pikachu: Everything
Olimar: Fsmash, Pikmin Toss?
Lucario: ?
Mr. G&W: pivot grab

Pit: pikmin toss?
Toon Link: Pikmin toss, fair, usmash
Zero Suit Samus: fsmash
Kirby: shield grab
ROB: pikmin toss, grab uair usmash

Donkey Kong: pikmin toss
Peach: fair
Fox: stand under platform
Luigi: grab
Wolf: ?

Sheik: ?
Squirtle: ?
Ivysaur: lol
Charizard: pikmin toss grab
Sonic: Fsmash grab
Ness: ?
Bowser: pikmin toss

Lucas: ?
Ike: Pivot Grab
Yoshi: ?
Mario: ?
Captain Falcon: grab + smash
Samus: Pikmin Toss, Fsmash
Jigglypuff: ?

Zelda:?
Link: ?
Ganondorf: ?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Agreeing with Fino except for a few changes:

Meta Knight: Fsmash, Up Smash, UpB

Falco: Grab
Wario: Grab, Pikmin Toss
Lucario: Grab, Fsmash, Fair

Kirby: Pivot/Shield Grab, Fsmash

Peach: Fair, Pikmin Toss

Squirtle: Pivot Grab
Ivysaur: SH Pikmin Toss, Fair
Ness: Fair, Pivot Grab

Lucas: Pivot Grab, Fair
Yoshi: Up Smash, Forward Smash, Grab
Mario: Pivot Grab

I'll give reasons if asked.

 

[-Vocal-]

Is it safe to try to pivot grab a Lucas? It seems like every time I try to I get PK Fired

 

[BOB SAGET!]

my input has slight changes

Metaknight: upB fsmash downb

Snake: grab fsmash pikmin toss

Wario: pivot grab, nair?

Donkey Kong: pikmin toss grab
Peach: fair, Oos usmash

Jigglypuff: fsmash

 

[-Vocal-]

I agree with most of what's been said, with just a few changes

I agree with Bob on Snake, but DEFINITELY not Jigglypuff. Pivot grabbing Jigglypuff is a bad idea 99% of the time since 99% of the time she's not going to land or float low enough to let herself be grabbed, and once you miss the grab you can guarantee she'll punish - she's got horizontal mobility out the wazoo and good Jigglypuffs will abuse this once they get in your space and make it difficult to get away. So

Jigglypuff: Pikmin throw, yellow fsmash, well timed fair

ZSS: fsmash, purple side b

That's all This'd make a great appendix to the matchup directory now that I think about it

 

[BOB SAGET!]

true, i just added that in there to see if i was right. Ok ill take that off.

 

[RichBrown]

I may or may not post more later, but Marth: Stutterstep Fsmash (mostly backwards stutterstep)

 

[-Vocal-]

Wait, what? There's more than one type of stutter-step?

 

[Noa.]

Well you can stutter step in two different directions.

 

[-Vocal-]

ok, but why would you ever want to stutter step backwards? I feel like I took a joke to seriously here ^^;

 

[Sky Pirate]

To avoid an attack that would have tippered while retaliating by throwing out a disjointed attack of your own.
Makes it a very ticklish situation as far as spacing is concerned.


Also, sorry to be gone from the boards so often. I'll start poking at the lists soon.
(Thank you for starting on that process yourselves, BTW. ^_^)

EDIT: OKAY, HERE GOES! Please give reasons for these, if you can:

1. Fino- Please explain your choices for Fox, Pikachu, and Wario.
Please also explain the lack of Fsmash on Snake, the lack of Fair on Jiggs, the lack of purple toss on ZSS, and the lack of pivot grab on DK.

2. Hilt- Feel free to help Fino with his list since you agree with him. I am especially interested in hearing why you agree with him on Wario. Please also explain the lack of Pikmin Toss on Mario.

3. BOB_SAGET!- If we included whistle, it would probably be on every character.

4. Anyone with G&W experience- Is Dtilt beating Turtle (discovered recently by Hilt) a good enough reason to put it up on him?

My apologies if I sound demanding, these are just the ones I failed to understand. :<
If anyone else doesn't understand, feel free to throw out questions, comments, observations, and rebuttals.

 

[-Vocal-]

Ok, if that's stutter stepping backwards, why would you ever want to do it forwards? What I'm getting at: aren't you always going to want to stutter step in one direction?

 

[BOB SAGET!]

The reason I put whistle in there was because it is our #1 defense mechanisim by far against MK. There's no way we can air dodge MK's moves in the air as well as his nado. True whistle is amazing in every mu I feel it really stands out in the MK mu......just my thoughts. Though I understand what you're saying.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Dtilt messes up GW more than just turtle. Going to do some more testing, though.

Also, change my GW list to: Pikmin Toss, Pivot Grab, Dtilt

As for your questions, Clover, the Wario matchup consists of us running away like hell, bombarding him with pikmin while he chases us, running into our pivot grabs. Nair beating dair some of the times in not that big of a deal and can leave us in a bad position. It's much more important to stay the hell away from him. Nair is important if you're in a tight spot and have no other options, but it's not a move that you'll be using that much.

And as for Mario, Pikmin Toss works well, but it's nothing special. Using it too much gives him an easy approach and he's able to cape them back fairly easily. Use it when you need to, or to force an approach, but it's not a staple move in the matchup.

 

[Today]

Uh! Since I'm a Olimar secondary, I don't know too too much.
But I can try and contribute a little bit... sorry if it isn't much...

Dedede: Pivot Grab, Fsmash, Pikmin Toss
GnW: Uair, Pikmin Toss, Dtilt,
Snake: Pivot Grab, Fsmash, Pikmin Toss
Peach: Fair
DK: Pivot Grab, Pikmin Toss
Pikachu: Grabs, Pikmin Toss, smashes, etc.
Olimar: Fsmash, pivot grab, pikmin toss.

I'll add more if I can... these are just matchups I've played.
Edit: Added more.

 

[Greward]

MK: FAIR!
then uair / fsmash


upB is really good but were not using it as much as the others as its too laggy so i wont put it there

im lazy to post more xD

 

[Noa.]

Yeah tether really isn't used that much against MK. It's good but situational in the matchup. Albeit it's very useful in those situations.

 

[Dnyce]

I feel upB is a necessity for mk comparative to other match-ups, where as other moves are equally applicable against everyone. Fsmash being another primary move for mk.

I didn't know this thread was called the most used moves, I thought it was for the most important

 

[Sky Pirate]

Buh... Long post, please bear with me as I do my best impression of a 12th century Roman Catholic inquisition.

Ok, if that's stutter stepping backwards, why would you ever want to do it forwards? What I'm getting at: aren't you always going to want to stutter step in one direction?

Doesn't stutter-stepping it forward pull the entire range of the move forward a slight amount?
Seems like a good way to mess up someone's spacing.

Dtilt messes up GW more than just turtle. Going to do some more testing, though.

As for your questions, Clover, the Wario matchup consists of us running away like hell, bombarding him with pikmin while he chases us, running into our pivot grabs. Nair beating dair some of the times in not that big of a deal and can leave us in a bad position. It's much more important to stay the hell away from him. Nair is important if you're in a tight spot and have no other options, but it's not a move that you'll be using that much.

And as for Mario, Pikmin Toss works well, but it's nothing special. Using it too much gives him an easy approach and he's able to cape them back fairly easily. Use it when you need to, or to force an approach, but it's not a staple move in the matchup.

On G&W, I'm going to add Pikmin Toss and hold off on adding Dtilt to the main list until someone else confirms that it is useful or you/someone does a tiny bit more testing with it.
Does that make ANY sense at all? ^^;

As far as Wario is concerned, I was really thinking more about Uair than Nair. I haven't gotten to play Wario recently, but it seemed kind of useful when I did.
How is Uair compared to the moves listed?

Mario makes sense. Caped Purples aren't fun. ><;
I was only asking because it seemed like it might be a good way to get him to stop throwing Fireballs out.

Pikachu: Grabs, Pikmin Toss, smashes, etc.

What is this I don't even
Everyone seems to be implying that every move ***** Pikachu. XD
Aren't there one or two moves that stand out?

MK: FAIR!

Can't MK hit through everything except Yellow Fair and doesn't that leave us in a pretty bad position?

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk in any of these, dead serious in all of them.

Spoiler

Perhaps someone better-informed that could ask intelligent questions should have started a topic like this. ^^;

 

[DtJ Hilt]

GW: I agree, I'm still wanting to do some testing against GWs, including other GWs as well to see how big of a deal the attack is. It's still nothing compared to Pikmin Toss, though.

Wario: Uair is a big deal when it's a big deal. Against some characters, they spend a lot of time in the air above us (such as a GW that UpB -> Dairs a lot, or some MKs), and Uair will be a big deal. But against Wario, he isn't going to be that high. And while Uair does beat his arsenal, he isn't often in the position to get Up Aired. Nair, I can sort of understand, but it's a much better idea to run away with a pivot grab than to try to challenge Wario's timing and spacing.

Mario: Pikmin Toss isn't really a problem for Mario's fire balls unless they're reds. Red Pikmin Toss and Fsmash don't just stop the fire balls, but go through and hit Mario which is a big deal in this matchup more than most fire based characters.

Pikachu: Grab ***** Pikachu. And everything else destroys him too. But mostly grabs.

Meta Knight: What Meta Knight can hit through isn't as important. You don't always have to think as if both hitboxes are out. If the MK isn't expecting a fair (they usually aren't), it may be too late for him to throw out his, or any move for that matter (other than Shuttle Loop). I do agree that fair is important in the Meta Knight matchup, but I don't know about putting it that high, considering it puts Olimar in a terrible position if used too much.

Clover, you may not know it, but you asking questions like this is good. Otherwise, people would submit their list, nobody would say anything, and we wouldn't get anything done. This way we compare our ideas, debate, compare, modify our lists based on the information we get, and create discussion, which is a big deal for a board that's still rebuilding itself, haha. So yeah

 

[-Vocal-]

Ok, I have a question: I was playing a Sonic yesterday, who's apparently quite good. (He's won many tournaments and he has a badge for a 10 win streak on the ladder - I'd say he's good.) Going in, I had NO clue how to fight him (still don't) but I slowly started to do better, and I have to ask - why isn't nair (and, to a lesser extent, utilt) listed for Sonic? It's beats Sonic's B moves, and it really helped get me out of pressure a couple times - is it just a bad idea to use it for some reason?

Also, I don't know if this was known, but on Picto and YI where he gets that spin dash super armor stuff from the angle, our dtilt clanks with it (should've known, dtilt clanks with EVERYTHING lol).

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Nair isn't a huge deal mainly because Sonic never leaves himself in the position to get hit by it. Trying to punish Sonic for something doesn't work in that matchup. The main thing you're trying to do in it is just keeping him out and working from there. And it doesn't beat out any of the moves that he would use close up, and we'd never be in the position to use it against them anyways.

Who was the Sonic?

 

[-Vocal-]

I actually know this one! Mostly cuz I added him as a friend and just went to look at it XD

It was PhoeIX

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I don't know that guy actually. Where's he from?

 

[-Vocal-]

Pittsburgh, PA. Wait a minute... *goes to check something*

As I thought! He was actually at the last tourney I went to; I figured he was because there were like SIX Sonic mains there lol

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280539

 

[Sky Pirate]

I wonder how many people we can add "Usmash OoS" to now that people are starting to recognize it. XD

Perhaps this wasn't the best idea for the time. People seem to want to discuss these things in the social thread. It is easier to throw out and form ideas in a topic like that.

EDIT: Doesn't really help that I left for a while and couldn't continue to poke people with a stick to get them to cough up discussion. T_T

 

[Weruop]

to stutterstep forward smash, do u dash away, then dash away again, then immediately f smash behind yourself?

 

[-Vocal-]

to stutterstep forward smash, do u dash away, then dash away again, then immediately f smash behind yourself?

That first dash isn't necessary: all you have to do is hit dash and then hit c-stick fsmash. It has the same frame window as dash dancing and jump canceling. Note that you can dash in any direction and c-stick in any direction; this means that both your dash and fsmash could be in the same direction. Obviously dashing away from the opponent and then fsmashing towards them in the most useful, but the more you know, right?

 

[Weruop]

okay thanks vocal

ill try that more, but lately ive been doing the way i said a lot

 

[-Vocal-]

okay thanks vocal

ill try that more, but lately ive been doing the way i said a lot

Well yea of course, that extra dash before the stutter step is useful for spacing, I use it a lot against Marth ^_^

 

[Sky Pirate]

This needs something more... solid for Pit, Fox, Sheik, Wolf, Zelda, Link and probably Pikachu.
Does anybody have anything to say about these characters?

 

[-Vocal-]

Fox? Grab, shield grab, and pivot grab all day long, least that's how my games go. I love it when they shoot lasers at me from a distance - all I have to do is SH throw one pikmin and they come dashing right into grab range ^_^

And Link I'd say pikmin throw just to keep his projectiles (esp. boomerang) from messing us up, as well as tack on damage.

The others I'm not so sure about.

 

[SiidSadik]

For pikachu, some of his good killing moves have long duration and are easily punishable. So just learn to exploit things like that.

As for link, olimar ***** his aerially, especially offstage. With links long punishable aerials, lack of easy spkie and pathetic recovery, just push him as far offstage as you can, so he has no chance

And whats stutter-stepping?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Try not to double post, bro.

 

[-Vocal-]

For pikachu, some of his good killing moves have long duration and are easily punishable. So just learn to exploit things like that.

As for link, olimar ***** his aerially, especially offstage. With links long punishable aerials, lack of easy spkie and pathetic recovery, just push him as far offstage as you can, so he has no chance

And whats stutter-stepping?

But those are strategies, not moves, and this is a move thread

And stutter stepping is initiating a dash in any direction and Fsmashing in any direction during the time you can cancel the dash (small window). The effect is that you'll take a small "stutter step" in the direction you began the dash and then Fsmash.

 

[SiidSadik]

So its essentially just starting to dash and immediately c-sticking forward or back? And is it a big enough step to be useful?

 

[-Vocal-]

So its essentially just starting to dash and immediately c-sticking forward or back? And is it a big enough step to be useful?

It's like the distance of half of Olimar's body, which can be very useful when timed properly - for instance, if a Marth approaches Oli with a fair, a stutter step will move Oli JUST out of it's range while allowing the Fsmash to connect right after