Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Lamuh]

Sounds good. Alright, here you go.

high speed rushdown character that rewards relentless pressure and combos. One loose hitbox can lead to loads of damage, and up smash and back air are straight up busted as KO options.
similar physics, completely different character. Relies on shuriken spacing and a variety of combo starters, and benefits from landing footstools more than pretty much any other character besides Lucas.
even faster than the above two. Requires high precision and a defensive neutral, and games take really long, but mixes up easier than any other character due to insane movement speed.
the exact opposite. a swordfighter who controls the space around him with arrows and blades, staying out of the air, stringing together simple combos and closing with either the upperdash, a forward throw, or a smash attack.

So i think im going to rule out pit. Im not a fan of the way he feels. It seems like, to me, that fox is the best of those three (if youre good at him), greninja is the most fun and sonic is the most frustrating to play against.

Between those three, who do you think would cover up Ike's bad MUs better?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

L Lamuh to approach has to space his moves on shield and then he'll go for grabs. Don't grab out of Sheila instead to a fast move like jab or just back away. To fight Roy you need to fight him like cloud. Throw him offstage and go for gimps. Watch his movement carefully and just be patient and wait for him to carelessly approach and punish. Also he's a fast taller so combo him as much as you can. Just don't let his speed scare you. Watch izaw's video art of Roy it'll help you beat him.

Is super fast and can fluster your opponent if you keep harassing them. He's got a fair footstool combo with can kill super early and he's got incredible juggling.
Is the speedy character who will mess up your opponent mentally. You can play super patient and time them out making them get careless and recklace then switch to aggression and harass them with you speed and combos. Also up throw-spring-up air can kill abyone around 50% on a platform...
Is rare, sneaky, has crazy combos, and a super soaker for a recovery. Enough said. It really he has a lot of tools that will surprise you opponent and a lot of mind games.

 

[Mini_Mac]

I'm a Little Mac main and I am having ginourmous trouble with a certain match-up, which is Ryu. I can almost never seem to approach without getting Bair'd or Fair'd no matter how patient I am. The only approtunity I usually get to actually rack up small damage is when I grab but even then it is hard to actually catch him when he is jumping like a mad-man the entire match. Even when he is high in the air and I have the chance to go for a grab/attack, he does his down-special move (Focus) which is basically a warning that says "get away from me or I'll hit you with my Focus and then take your stock with a D-tilt to super shoryuken" or he can just use it to play mind games with me when he cancels it in the air. Not to mention the fact that his combos are so devistating that they rack up so much damage and then one good hit equals the end of a stock (unless the combo is a 0-to-death which has happened to me a number of times).

Does anyone have any tips on how to play against Ryu as Mac?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

L Lamuh what are Ike's bad match ups?

Mini_Mac you have to out footsie him and run away. Both beat him a lot just because they can hit him then run away. He can't chase you with him speed but he will try which is when you use your speed and punish. Use a lot of multi hit moves to negate focus attack and use your speed. That's how I did it with . Also I think you can duck under his hadukens and some other moves. Also nair to break out of combos.

So I've decided to drop to pocket/ friendlies character in favor of . 2 top tiers. But with the three I lose against . So I'm looking for a counter pick to them. Someone who can be a good pocket. I've got in mind. Can you help me pick my counter pick? Also any other good options?

 

[Mini_Mac]

L Lamuh what are Ike's bad match ups?

Mini_Mac you have to out footsie him and run away. Both beat him a lot just because they can hit him then run away. He can't chase you with him speed but he will try which is when you use your speed and punish. Use a lot of multi hit moves to negate focus attack and use your speed. That's how I did it with . Also I think you can duck under his hadukens and some other moves. Also nair to break out of combos.

So I've decided to drop to pocket/ friendlies character in favor of . 2 top tiers. But with the three I love against . So I'm looking for a counter pick to them. Someone who can be a good pocket. I've got in mind. Can you help me pick my counter pick? Also any other good options?

Thanks for the help man! Much appreciated! I thought I'd return the favor by giving you some counter pick advice!

In my opinion and experience, I think the three you are deciding by are about equal in terms of the number of options they each have.

Bayonetta is really good at punishing hard and racking up damage with her combos and has an extremly devistating counter that can lead to a kill very early. She is also a very good ledge guarder when using her aerials, neutral-B, and D-smash. However, a lot of her options on stage can end up hurting her if someone shields through certain moves like her side-B or a smash attack. Smart players will simply wait out a situation for her to be vulnerable so they can go for a punish. Playing her on stage requires some patience.

Pikachu has really good zoning options with the use of his projectiles and has a more-than-decent combo game. His defensive stradegies like his zig-zag up-B on stage and his speed make him very difficult to approach as well as making him one of the most effective mind-game characters in the game. A couple flaws include his lack of effective edgeguarding as well as his light weight which can lead to decently earlier KOs. If you know how to space yourself correctly and play effective defensive then you should be good.

As long as Luma is alive, Rosalina's defensive and zoning stradegies are almost endless! Her hitboxes on a majority of her moves have long range and last a very long time and she has a gruesome U-air that tends to kill pretty early. On top of all of that, her Down-B makes her a harder target to damage using projectiles. However, despite her large recovery, it is interceptable and may lead to a GIMP. Her speed on the ground is decent but not the best and her aerial mobility is floaty and slow. She is also pretty light which can sometimes lead to early KOs.

I hope this helps man! Honestly, this is a really hard decision because each of the three have their pros and cons. Pick whichever one fits your playstyle

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Thanks for the help man! Much appreciated! I thought I'd return the favor by giving you some counter pick advice!

In my opinion and experience, I think the three you are deciding by are about equal in terms of the number of options they each have.

Bayonetta is really good at punishing hard and racking up damage with her combos and has an extremly devistating counter that can lead to a kill very early. She is also a very good ledge guarder when using her aerials, neutral-B, and D-smash. However, a lot of her options on stage can end up hurting her if someone shields through certain moves like her side-B or a smash attack. Smart players will simply wait out a situation for her to be vulnerable so they can go for a punish. Playing her on stage requires some patience.

Pikachu has really good zoning options with the use of his projectiles and has a more-than-decent combo game. His defensive stradegies like his zig-zag up-B on stage and his speed make him very difficult to approach as well as making him one of the most effective mind-game characters in the game. A couple flaws include his lack of effective edgeguarding as well as his light weight which can lead to decently earlier KOs. If you know how to space yourself correctly and play effective defensive then you should be good.

As long as Luma is alive, Rosalina's defensive and zoning stradegies are almost endless! Her hitboxes on a majority of her moves have long range and last a very long time and she has a gruesome U-air that tends to kill pretty early. On top of all of that, her Down-B makes her a harder target to damage using projectiles. However, despite her large recovery, it is interceptable and may lead to a GIMP. Her speed on the ground is decent but not the best and her aerial mobility is floaty and slow. She is also pretty light which can sometimes lead to early KOs.

I hope this helps man! Honestly, this is a really hard decision because each of the three have their pros and cons. Pick whichever one fits your playstyle

I think I'll try since she's the easiest and best against . And no problem glad to help.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I'm a Little Mac main and I am having ginourmous trouble with a certain match-up, which is Ryu. I can almost never seem to approach without getting Bair'd or Fair'd no matter how patient I am. The only approtunity I usually get to actually rack up small damage is when I grab but even then it is hard to actually catch him when he is jumping like a mad-man the entire match. Even when he is high in the air and I have the chance to go for a grab/attack, he does his down-special move (Focus) which is basically a warning that says "get away from me or I'll hit you with my Focus and then take your stock with a D-tilt to super shoryuken" or he can just use it to play mind games with me when he cancels it in the air. Not to mention the fact that his combos are so devistating that they rack up so much damage and then one good hit equals the end of a stock (unless the combo is a 0-to-death which has happened to me a number of times).

Does anyone have any tips on how to play against Ryu as Mac?

This post might be better suited for the Little Mac boards, but while I'm here...

Little Mac isn't actually a character who is very good at approaching, in spite of what his speed may lead you to believe. With that said, Ryu doesn't have much of a way to make you approach either, since his projectile is super slow. In fact, I'm pretty sure Mac can punch Hadouken (as well as its true variant) to neutralize them, which also builds your K.O. meter. In any case, you can apply pressure by getting close enough that you could use a burst option to hit Ryu, but he can't hit you without committing to an approach. Then watch as he either flails around to try to keep you off of him (and of course punish appropriately) or see him try to approach you, which is the best place to be as Mac since you should be able to stuff or punish all of his moves. And if things get too hot in close, don't be afraid to dash or roll away, you're fast enough to get away with it.

Also, to deal with Focus... it has a minimum startup before you can dash out of it, which I believe sits around 20 frames. Little Mac's amazing frame data makes him one of the best characters at abusing this start up, as your Jab, F-tilt, and Rising Uppercut (Up special) are all multi-hit moves that come out with plenty of time to spare in order to break the special armor before Ryu can do anything as long as you start early enough. Be careful with Rising Uppercut, though, as it is potentially fatal to miss with this one, really only helpful against Focus if you have a read on it or if your opponent is starting the move directly above you. If facing someone who tends to charge the move to get the crumpling hit, you can even start D-tilt strings before it can come out as an attack. If you feel like you can't get close in time to punish the move's startup itself, instead position yourself to punish one of the directions for dash cancel, and punch them in the teeth if they approach you with it or decide to let it go to full charge. Don't be afraid of Focus, think of it instead as either free stage control when they cancel it away from you, or free damage if they do literally anything else. Respect it, give it the spacing and caution it deserves, but never fear it. (Also, final fun fact, K.O. punch hits through Focus's special armor, as does Down-andled F-smash during stage 1 so... yeah, that too)

 

[Krysco]

Been a while since I've posted here and I may have finally settled on who I'm going to focus on though not too comfortably. Basically these 5: . I really enjoy 's playstyle and and play similarly enough that I can enjoy them too. Only problem I have with them is their lack of a projectile. was always fun to me, I just didn't like how he has an infinite of sorts since I figured it would be the center piece of his gameplay much like what became of before his nerf. Never happened though. Slowly picking up since he was my secondary in Brawl and I enjoy him in Melee and PM too and my only problem with him is my own lack of knowledge on uthrow -> rar Thunder since that seems to be his main kill setup. Gotta research/lab percentages it works at, with and without rage and gotta see how platforms work with it since Thunder sometimes goes through platforms and other times doesn't.

There's no one quite like Wolf with the most common comparison I see being Greninja but I don't like the feel of the character at all. Been getting into Melee lately and have found out that I really enjoy Falco. Would have enjoyed him in Brawl too if laser camping wasn't such a huge part of his gameplan and I enjoy him in Sm4sh too but he's too flawed for me to want to work with. I often see the comparison that Ryu is a better Falco but I never wanted to lab out his special inputs and his air acceleration is a problem for me too. Might give Ryu one last try but if I can't get used to him then I'm basically sticking with the previously mentioned 5 unless a patch comes and shakes things up enough or if the Switch version does, especially if Wolf becomes available.

I realize that focusing on 5 characters is a bit much but 3 of them play pretty similar and is basically a challenge pick for me to see if he's better than 6th worst in the game while the other 4 are high/top tier comfort picks. Might drop Marcina or M2 over time since they're both tall, 'light' characters who have a big focus on disjoints. Pika stays though since he's the only viable, short lightweight that I like. Would also be very convenient if M2 + Pika or Marcina + Pika gave me a perfect or near perfect mu spread much like Wolf + Pika did for me in Brawl.

Spoiler: Less important stuff

Would focus on since I like him in previous entries but I dislike how little he has to do for how much reward he gets. Makes him boring and unfun. Would focus on since I have a clear love for disjoints and high mobility but I dislike his Limitless recovery and I've never been a fan of high risk, high reward moves such as Rest, Waft and Limit moves. Could always focus on since I still enjoy him and he's a decent mid tier but his mobility is too poor for me to want to stick with him.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Been a while since I've posted here and I may have finally settled on who I'm going to focus on though not too comfortably. Basically these 5: . I really enjoy 's playstyle and and play similarly enough that I can enjoy them too. Only problem I have with them is their lack of a projectile. was always fun to me, I just didn't like how he has an infinite of sorts since I figured it would be the center piece of his gameplay much like what became of before his nerf. Never happened though. Slowly picking up since he was my secondary in Brawl and I enjoy him in Melee and PM too and my only problem with him is my own lack of knowledge on uthrow -> rar Thunder since that seems to be his main kill setup. Gotta research/lab percentages it works at, with and without rage and gotta see how platforms work with it since Thunder sometimes goes through platforms and other times doesn't.

There's no one quite like Wolf with the most common comparison I see being Greninja but I don't like the feel of the character at all. Been getting into Melee lately and have found out that I really enjoy Falco. Would have enjoyed him in Brawl too if laser camping wasn't such a huge part of his gameplan and I enjoy him in Sm4sh too but he's too flawed for me to want to work with. I often see the comparison that Ryu is a better Falco but I never wanted to lab out his special inputs and his air acceleration is a problem for me too. Might give Ryu one last try but if I can't get used to him then I'm basically sticking with the previously mentioned 5 unless a patch comes and shakes things up enough or if the Switch version does, especially if Wolf becomes available.

I realize that focusing on 5 characters is a bit much but 3 of them play pretty similar and is basically a challenge pick for me to see if he's better than 6th worst in the game while the other 4 are high/top tier comfort picks. Might drop Marcina or M2 over time since they're both tall, 'light' characters who have a big focus on disjoints. Pika stays though since he's the only viable, short lightweight that I like. Would also be very convenient if M2 + Pika or Marcina + Pika gave me a perfect or near perfect mu spread much like Wolf + Pika did for me in Brawl.

Spoiler: Less important stuff

Would focus on since I like him in previous entries but I dislike how little he has to do for how much reward he gets. Makes him boring and unfun. Would focus on since I have a clear love for disjoints and high mobility but I dislike his Limitless recovery and I've never been a fan of high risk, high reward moves such as Rest, Waft and Limit moves. Could always focus on since I still enjoy him and he's a decent mid tier but his mobility is too poor for me to want to stick with him.

1st off, is mid tier. At worst. At best low high tier but solid mid tier. 2nd off, 3 at most. You're just wasting time when you could put more into less characters but just be better. Honestly 2 is your best bet. Play the others for fun. Play . There's a good duo. Or just solo main. You gotta narrow down. I tried using like 4 characters at once and I was losing. So I focused on 2 and stated winning. Narrow down.

 

[Krysco]

1st off, is mid tier. At worst. At best low high tier but solid mid tier. 2nd off, 3 at most. You're just wasting time when you could put more into less characters but just be better. Honestly 2 is your best bet. Play the others for fun. Play . There's a good duo. Or just solo main. You gotta narrow down. I tried using like 4 characters at once and I was losing. So I focused on 2 and stated winning. Narrow down.

Well as I said, Roy is mainly a self challenge kind of character. I wanna use him for sure, seeing if I can get any notable results with him and if I can't then he'll be dropped. Marth and Lucina can effectively be considered 1 character and I focus far more on Marth than Lucina anyways. That leaves me with 3 characters if Roy doesn't work out for me and I may yet continue to drop characters over time since Marth and Mewtwo fill a similar-ish role for me. Can't go to tournaments yet save for online ones so I'm fine with focusing on 5 for now. If Roy does work out for me then I'll likely drop Marth and Lucina which will yet again leave me with 3 which could be further bumped down to 2.

 

[Mini_Mac]

This post might be better suited for the Little Mac boards, but while I'm here...

Little Mac isn't actually a character who is very good at approaching, in spite of what his speed may lead you to believe. With that said, Ryu doesn't have much of a way to make you approach either, since his projectile is super slow. In fact, I'm pretty sure Mac can punch Hadouken (as well as its true variant) to neutralize them, which also builds your K.O. meter. In any case, you can apply pressure by getting close enough that you could use a burst option to hit Ryu, but he can't hit you without committing to an approach. Then watch as he either flails around to try to keep you off of him (and of course punish appropriately) or see him try to approach you, which is the best place to be as Mac since you should be able to stuff or punish all of his moves. And if things get too hot in close, don't be afraid to dash or roll away, you're fast enough to get away with it.

Also, to deal with Focus... it has a minimum startup before you can dash out of it, which I believe sits around 20 frames. Little Mac's amazing frame data makes him one of the best characters at abusing this start up, as your Jab, F-tilt, and Rising Uppercut (Up special) are all multi-hit moves that come out with plenty of time to spare in order to break the special armor before Ryu can do anything as long as you start early enough. Be careful with Rising Uppercut, though, as it is potentially fatal to miss with this one, really only helpful against Focus if you have a read on it or if your opponent is starting the move directly above you. If facing someone who tends to charge the move to get the crumpling hit, you can even start D-tilt strings before it can come out as an attack. If you feel like you can't get close in time to punish the move's startup itself, instead position yourself to punish one of the directions for dash cancel, and punch them in the teeth if they approach you with it or decide to let it go to full charge. Don't be afraid of Focus, think of it instead as either free stage control when they cancel it away from you, or free damage if they do literally anything else. Respect it, give it the spacing and caution it deserves, but never fear it. (Also, final fun fact, K.O. punch hits through Focus's special armor, as does Down-andled F-smash during stage 1 so... yeah, that too)

This was very helpful! I'll try using these tips next time I play against Ryu. Much appreciated!

 

[DJBor]

is pretty much Marth turned into a speedy brawler, except if you accidentally think you can play him like Marth you get punished with a sourspot hit.
has a whole bunch of unique attacks and a game plan that vaguely reminds me of Melee Samus, but her messed up hitboxes and precision makes her more of a hassle to deal with than others.
In theory, both have potential for a higher tier placement, but there are other characters that do what they can without the added difficulty.
So there is absolutely no problem in playing these two, just be ready for a little extra challenge when it comes to tournament play.

 

[Mini_Mac]

At my next tournament, I want to have a secondary in case I might be up against a tough matchup for . Contrary to what most people experience in the realm of matchups for , the only matchups who I am not 100% comfortable to consistently play against (yet) are so basically I need a secondary that can make a good enough matchup for these 6 characters or at least most of them.

Other than , my two other mains who I have been focusing on for the past couple months have been .

Considering how defensive I play as , I think he would do great against simply because has a moveset that relies on projectiles that I can just pocket, has projectiles that I can pocket and is an easier target to hit because of her not-so-fast speed and her reliance on being in the air, and is extremly slow, easy to punish, and basically combo-food because of his size.
I tend to do better against the other 3 as because of slow mobility (along with her inability to spam down-B and steal projectiles which doesn't have), I can suprise attack with a grab or dash attack easier because of speed along with a harder punish, and I can space myself farther with PP D-tilts which can be very useful against since his size when he crouches causes me to miss many of my attacks.

 

[Drifting]

I've been in main limbo for many months now.

essentially what this means is ive "mained" a lot of characters, but dropped after a week/month for some weird reason

Like ive definently experienced this with 85% of characters in the game.

Right now I'm working on Mario and I feel confident with him, I used to secondary him at tournament (picked him up earlier today lol) but anyone have any tips to get past this psychological issue?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I've been in main limbo for many months now.

essentially what this means is ive "mained" a lot of characters, but dropped after a week/month for some weird reason

Like ive definently experienced this with 85% of characters in the game.

Right now I'm working on Mario and I feel confident with him, I used to secondary him at tournament (picked him up earlier today lol) but anyone have any tips to get past this psychological issue?

It'll happen. You just have to find that character who's right for you. At first it was for me but it changed to when looking for a top tier. I might still use Roy some. Just be patient. You'll find them. And is a great place to start. He's easy, allows for your own creativeness and teaches great fundamentals.

So now for me. As I said I've moved to . He's my main. But now I need a secondary for him. Mainly someone who can beat . They are the most annoying matchups.

 

[Justinian]

I've been in main limbo for many months now.

essentially what this means is ive "mained" a lot of characters, but dropped after a week/month for some weird reason

Like ive definently experienced this with 85% of characters in the game.

Right now I'm working on Mario and I feel confident with him, I used to secondary him at tournament (picked him up earlier today lol) but anyone have any tips to get past this psychological issue?

A lot of people in your situation just cycle through the roster, and eventually one or a few character(s) just click with them, and off they go. It helps a lot if you've got connections to the character outside Smash. Of course, if you go through the whole roster and no one stands out as "the one", then just try to enjoy yourself and play with all the characters you like (especially if you have solid fighting game fundamentals, this won't hinder your performance nearly as much as some people say)!

So now for me. As I said I've moved to . He's my main. But now I need a secondary for him. Mainly someone who can beat . They are the most annoying matchups.

There are no characters with a positive MU against all of those characters. Sheik doesn't lose any MU's, and Fox / Mewtwo only lose about 3 or 4 each.

Your best bet for those characters you named is probably Mario, though he loses to Mewtwo. Bayonetta is also an option, since she destroys the spacies and either goes even/beats most other characters. The only characters on that list I'd be worried about as Bayo are Pika and Sheik, but you can grind those MUs out if you choose to go with her as long as you have them in you region.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I don't want Mario he loses to fox and mewtwo who are the biggest problems. Right now I've got in mind. Again trying to beat .
Who of those 5 is good to beat them?

 

[DJBor]

or .
Pika and mario eat rob for breakfast, diddy loses to mario as well, corrin loses to fox and sheik
And don't forget you always have a reliable just in case.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

or .
Pika and mario eat rob for breakfast, diddy loses to mario as well, corrin loses to fox and sheik
And don't forget you always have a reliable just in case.

I'm ok with Mario beating Diddy. So I'll consider still.

 

[DJBor]

Now it's my turn.
I have been settled into maining for at least half a year now. But all of a sudden, my quest for a secondary ends on . Now, the problem is that Mewtwo's matchups are so much easier for me that I've been relying on him too much. Yet I know after testing that my Villager is better. So what am I to do, to keep my focus on my main?

 

[Justinian]

I'm ok with Mario beating Diddy. So I'll consider still.

Diddy gets thrashed by Fox, same with Pit. Marth goes even with Fox, slightly loses to Sheik, Pika and Mewtwo, and beats Mario and Falco. Mewtwo is really good as a secondary to Mega Man now hat I think about it, all the MUs MMs regard as difficult are covered (at least even) by Mewtwo.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Diddy gets thrashed by Fox, same with Pit. Marth goes even with Fox, slightly loses to Sheik, Pika and Mewtwo, and beats Mario and Falco. Mewtwo is really good as a secondary to Mega Man now hat I think about it, all the MUs MMs regard as difficult are covered (at least even) by Mewtwo.

I've talked to Diddy and fox players and they say it's even. I'm not too sure about mewtwo since the ditto.

 

[Chalice]

New year, new resolution for Smash. I plan to compete more and want to start getting my head outta my arse and try to win but first I need to truly decide which characters to devote time and effort to, even when things are going rough and they don't seem to be working out (Since that's the whole point of the git gud grind)

I play

Marth and Roy are more of my fun and pocket characters but have yet to use in tourney settings.

Fox and Cloud have done somewhat evenly for me and I wonder whether its because I'm not getting truly good with either character or I need to focus on one.

So yeah, opinions?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

New year, new resolution for Smash. I plan to compete more and want to start getting my head outta my arse and try to win but first I need to truly decide which characters to devote time and effort to, even when things are going rough and they don't seem to be working out (Since that's the whole point of the git gud grind)

I play

Marth and Roy are more of my fun and pocket characters but have yet to use in tourney settings.

Fox and Cloud have done somewhat evenly for me and I wonder whether its because I'm not getting truly good with either character or I need to focus on one.

So yeah, opinions?

Keep playing but focus on them. Don't worry about .

Now me: With testing and advice I've gotten from people it's come down to for my secondary. Not worried about MUs anymore now just who will benefit my mega man the most.

 

[DJBor]

Lock down your preference between and over time, best becomes your main. You won't need the other since both are solo viable, and then just run as a pocket.

@Nice You have experience with all 3, but your most tournament-experienced character so far of those 3 is . Try him first, then if that doesn't work, then last

 

[Justinian]

New year, new resolution for Smash. I plan to compete more and want to start getting my head outta my arse and try to win but first I need to truly decide which characters to devote time and effort to, even when things are going rough and they don't seem to be working out (Since that's the whole point of the git gud grind)

I play

Marth and Roy are more of my fun and pocket characters but have yet to use in tourney settings.

Fox and Cloud have done somewhat evenly for me and I wonder whether its because I'm not getting truly good with either character or I need to focus on one.

So yeah, opinions?

I would say to dual main Fox / Cloud. Cloud relies enough on having solid fundamentals that he doesn't require as much lab time as many other characters, so playing him shouldn't detract from your Fox. Cloud also beats Kirby, Rosa, and Luigi and goes even with Luigi, covering almost all of Fox's bad or questionable MUs (still gonna have a bad time against Sheik, but it's Sheik).

Now me: With testing and advice I've gotten from people it's come down to for my secondary. Not worried about MUs anymore now just who will benefit my mega man the most.

If you just want to focus on improving your Mega Man through another character, use Diddy. Both characters reward generally passive play and calculated aggression.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Thanks guys I think I'll go with for a while and have in the pocket for if they can get around the other two but I think I'll be fine. And will be next in line.

 

[AJb1205]

Ok so my sister might get into competetive playing so she need s amain. This is what she wants in a character so pick a few characers for her to try.

-Fairly easy to learn
-Doesn't require a crap ton of combos
-Good ways to kill opponent that aren't hard to pull off
-Mid range weight (Doesn't really want a heavy character or light character)
-Mid speed
- Close up fighting (Not projectile focused but it can have A projectile that wouldn't be a problem just not focused on spacing)
Idk what else to put so if you have questions that I can ask her then tell me.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Ok so my sister might get into competetive playing so she need s amain. This is what she wants in a character so pick a few characers for her to try.

-Fairly easy to learn
-Doesn't require a crap ton of combos
-Good ways to kill opponent that aren't hard to pull off
-Mid range weight (Doesn't really want a heavy character or light character)
-Mid speed
- Close up fighting (Not projectile focused but it can have A projectile that wouldn't be a problem just not focused on spacing)
Idk what else to put so if you have questions that I can ask her then tell me.

Are the characters I can think of who are like that. Have her try them out and see how she feels. It's awesome to see another person get into competative smash.

 

[Chalice]

Ok so my sister might get into competetive playing so she need s amain. This is what she wants in a character so pick a few characers for her to try.

-Fairly easy to learn
-Doesn't require a crap ton of combos
-Good ways to kill opponent that aren't hard to pull off
-Mid range weight (Doesn't really want a heavy character or light character)
-Mid speed
- Close up fighting (Not projectile focused but it can have A projectile that wouldn't be a problem just not focused on spacing)
Idk what else to put so if you have questions that I can ask her then tell me.

is pretty much this although he is more spacing heavy. In that case, would be better until your sister gets better at spacing.
and is good too. They aren't too reliant on spacing and don't really have insane combos, just Down Throw into an aerial. (As far as I know)
fits the bill as well. He has a ton of combos but you don't need to know all of them to start off. He has enough easy bake combos that do the job well enough.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Ok so update on me:
New list of bad matchups;.
So list of characters who are possible secondaries;.
Can you give some insight on who would be good or bad? Not looking for my tournament experience.

 

[Niche]

two questions:
What character has the strongest punish game?
What character is most like ICs?

 

[Justinian]

two questions:
What character has the strongest punish game?
What character is most like ICs?

Strongest punish game in Smash 4 is one of , , , or .

As for which is most like the Icies (that is, a relatively poor neutral that's threatening because of the punish game it can lead to, especially off grabs), I'd probably say Meta Knight. He's got a zero to death combo off down throw, good edgetrapping, and combos that can do about 30-40% or kill starting from 20-50%.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

two questions:
What character has the strongest punish game?
What character is most like ICs?

Punish game:without a doubt
Most like:same 2-in-1 character style

 

[Egghead]

two questions:
What character has the strongest punish game?
What character is most like ICs?

has the best punish game.(my opinion, everybody has different opinions and mine generally suck)
Depends on which aspect. is for the duo. Many characters are grapplers too. is for the bad melee aerials and the hammer.

 

[DeltaForce]

Strongest punish game in Smash 4 is one of , , , or .

As for which is most like the Icies (that is, a relatively poor neutral that's threatening because of the punish game it can lead to, especially off grabs), I'd probably say Meta Knight. He's got a zero to death combo off down throw, good edgetrapping, and combos that can do about 30-40% or kill starting from 20-50%.

Justinian I have some small issues with that list most of it is accurate, but I would like to mention a few things.....
A: MK does not have a zero to death off a downthrow combo that is guaranteed and it is character gravity and weight dependent and position. Can you name me or show me a video of the combo you are talking about? Because yes MK can possibly zero to death with a series of combos but not one combo (that is guaranteed at any rate)
B: I would also like to note that MK has an early kill range at somewhere between 25%-40% (Once they go into tumble it is no longer guaranteed since they can SDI the u air) Once past that range it is rare for him to kill until 90%
C: I would not say Pikachu has one of the strongest punish games in Sm4sh simply because of the fact of his mind boggling neutral, you can't have that good of a neutral and have an excellent punish game.(I mean the degree of the top 5 punish games Pika's is strong but not that strong) IMO

two questions:
What character has the strongest punish game?
What character is most like ICs?

For IC I would say that none of the Characters in Sm4sh 4 are like Ice Climber because their wobbling technique But the 2 characters come off of different aspecs of IC.
RosaLuma Dual character involving defensive play But that is about where it stops RosaLuma is a character that seeks to gain damage from juggles and walling with the big green button
MetaKnight- just for the simple fact of a poor neutral with a very strong punish game.

Let me know what aspect of Ice Climbers you are looking for The devastating punish game, or The defensive play.

All in all though RosaLuma can take early stocks and gets insane damage from ledge traps, edge guards, and juggling so I would say Rosa Luma is the most accurate Representation of Ice Climbers.

Ok so my sister might get into competetive playing so she need s amain. This is what she wants in a character so pick a few characers for her to try.

-Fairly easy to learn
-Doesn't require a crap ton of combos
-Good ways to kill opponent that aren't hard to pull off
-Mid range weight (Doesn't really want a heavy character or light character)
-Mid speed
- Close up fighting (Not projectile focused but it can have A projectile that wouldn't be a problem just not focused on spacing)
Idk what else to put so if you have questions that I can ask her then tell me.

I would pick Mario he is very close range with not really like combos but an excellent upsmash and back throw for kills. He has a fireball projectile and a cape as a reflector of projectiles and enemies. He has a ton of combos BUT they are fairly easy to learn and mostly intuitive and your sister should not find them hard to pick up. Mario is one of the easiest characters to learn has mid weight and mid speed.

 

[Justinian]

DeltaForce does something along the lines of dthrow -> bair -> ff -> jab lock -> dash attack -> ladder combo not still work from zero or really close to it depending on character? Obviously wouldn't be guaranteed until/less they miss the tech on bair.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

So, not looking for a new main per se, but I am in need of some feedback.

Who are the best "jack of all trades" characters? I always hear Pit / Dark Pit thrown around for that category, but are there any others?

 

[DeltaForce]

DeltaForce does something along the lines of dthrow -> bair -> ff -> jab lock -> dash attack -> ladder combo not still work from zero or really close to it depending on character? Obviously wouldn't be guaranteed until/less they miss the tech on bair.

Justinian Yes that is a cobo of some sorts but there are 2 variations Dthrow to RAR Bair to 3 dtilts dash attack/downthrow to u airs Or you can do it with a PP Bair if they DI towards you on the dthrow. RAR Bair is not guaranteed and you can tech the Bair lock. The combo you mentioned is pretty general but there are some combos that could work. Floaty characters are very susceptible to ladder combos BUT Mk needs to have almost max rage to make it a true combo. Also stages depend vertical and horizontal kills Mk can get from ladder combos. Something like Battlefield vs Town and City T&C will yield vertical kills are earlier percents. What you are suggesting might have been possible pre-patch but not anymore. In conclussion yes the combo you are suggesting takes a DI dependent downthrow and is on certain characters with high rage. The true zero to death combo you are suggesting is very hard to get and very situational.

So, not looking for a new main per se, but I am in need of some feedback.

Who are the best "jack of all trades" characters? I always hear Pit / Dark Pit thrown around for that category, but are there any others?

I would also add to that list and possibly

Ok so update on me:
New list of bad matchups;.
So list of characters who are possible secondaries;.
Can you give some insight on who would be good or bad? Not looking for my tournament experience.

Just do Cloud he covers everything except for Pikachu and I am pretty sure you play a Sonic and he goes even with Pika. I would suggest you learn the Pika Sonic matchup and use Cloud. However Zelda should not be a problem, you need to learn the matchup Fox runs even with Sonic and Sonic is good against Mario. Megaman can play well against Sheik and Megaman can beat ZSS and so can Sonic.

Most of your MU issues should not be solved by a new character but you need to take the time and learn the matchups. You are constantly saying you are talking to players in you region about MUs play with them and use Anther's Ladder.

Pikachu has really good zoning options with the use of his projectiles and has a more-than-decent combo game. His defensive stradegies like his zig-zag up-B on stage and his speed make him very difficult to approach as well as making him one of the most effective mind-game characters in the game. A couple flaws include his lack of effective edgeguarding as well as his light weight which can lead to decently earlier KOs. If you know how to space yourself correctly and play effective defensive then you should be good.

Sorry but I have some HUGE issues with this.........
A: his only projectile any good for zoning is Tjolt, thunder is not useful for zoning and tjolt as a bunch of endlag attached to it and makes it pretty bad for zoning it really only makes people approach and helps harras campers. Fast characters can easily run up powershield and punish.
B: His primary playstyle is very agressive defensive can be an option but Pikachu is known for heavy pressure that is in your face and never relenting on or off stage. His quick attack is excellent for this he is able to dart in and out doing little burst combos and gaining percent quickly. His aerials can duck and weak in and out of people's ranges. His small size helps this as well to make him a very hard target to hit. The only ways to really play Pikachu Defensively is to run, play super lame and cancerous, this is a strat that can be useful and professionals use it either to reset the neutral or to force an opponent to approach Pikachu is in his element when he is on the attack, he also does't really have the range for it either.
C: This one triggers me the most Pikachu has a ton of edgeguarding options but instead of explaining I will link a post I did explaining to edge guard Shulk most of it is general and should still be applicable.

With Shulk the only thing I feel like I can give advice on is edge guarding Shulk, which is highly useful in the MU. First lets look at the different recoveries, Without Monados his recover is poor in horizontal recovery reliant on his jump to get him horizontal distance, his airspeed is 24th (Without Monados all the statistics are for Shulk without Monados activated if that is different I will let you know) Actual up special used for recovery has 2 different strikes, the First is similar to the movement of Marth's Dolphin Slash (not in speed) This on if you are hit by it will launch you upwards, it is where he get most or hit vertical recover from in this move. The second strike is he faces forward (Relative to his previous position) and strikes making him rise a little extra in height. The second strike gives high horizontal knock back and if you are hit by it could easily turn into a stage spike. He can cancel the second hit allowing the oportunity for a mixup, if he does only the first hit it has the potential to auto snap. If he continues he will hang in the air for a second and will grab the ledge as the animation end. After his up special he is immediately put into bad recovery. His recovery does not have any invincibility frames, intangibility or protecting hitbox besides the sword. His recovery can also be enhanced by his jump manado giving him a larger jump other stat buffs and nerfs also occur but I will talk about that later. Pikachu's recover you should already be familiar with and as @Ninj4pikachu said before that we outclass Shulk's recovery tremedously.

Now for how to actually edgeguard Shulk effectively,Pikachu has an amazing edgeguarding kit and I will go over each of them in turn and their uses against Shulks recovery. If you feel like I have missed something that is realistic to be used in Edgeuarding Shulk, let me know.

Nair- The sweetspot of nair has the most knockback of any of Pikachu's air moves and will knock shulk back the farthest or the strongest stage spike, however this moves has little range and the sweetspot does not last very many frames (3 frames) the move knocks you at about a 50-60 degree angle and Shulk could still make it back I prefer to use this out of shield against shulks ledge otpions than offstage.

Dair- This move permanently sweetspots with a high knock back hit, does not spike, the hitbox is underneath Pikachu so this could be usefull if you fastfall from above Shulk which could gimp him or stage spike you would also be very close to him I would not recomend this move for lack or range EXCEPT if you are coming from above this move if better for edge guarding at high percents

Bair- Dropdown back air is a popluar strategy for Pikachu since it carries the opponent possibly under the stage, knocks him away, or stage spikes, the opponent can DI the move to control the way they are knocked but take advantage of this, If they DI away from the stage, then move away from the stage so they are knocked as far away as possible, they DI in the move close or make your distance fromthe stage unpredictable so it is harder to get the tech. A dropdown bair can be stopped by Shulk's sword in the process and they can B turnaround towards to away from the stage making it almost a 50-50 whether you get hit by Shulk.

Thunder- Thunder has different properties on different stages and part of the move The top of the Bolt will spike you and drag you down in the bolt, If you hit just the actual bolt it will do mostly vertical knckback similar to roughly 75 degrees. The third stage is when the bolt hits Pikachu and causes Blue electricity to flash around him. This blue lightning hitbox is the most powerful of the 3 hitboxes and Pikachu has invunerability frames (34-44). The Dragdown hitbox usually combos into the contact hitbox because the opponent is dragged down with the bolt in the the blue electricity. This gives Pikachu to pluck shulk out of the air if he recovers high. Another use is immediately after a drop down bair Shulk with do a vertical recovery jump up and thunder to catch him drag him down and kill him. (either off the side if precents are right or gimp him). The contact hitbox alone is not really useful for edgeguarding in general it could be used if you are right next to the ledge for a 2 frame. The third hit box is the bolt itself and is extremely long lasting and will continue downwards for 16-85 frames, making this an excellent 2 framing tool. If you throw off and thunder and Pikachu's momentum is goinig away from the stage ESAM lists some followups in this video (Not for Shulk but in general but Shulk is mid tier in weight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmzl7AuyF0Y

U air- Not much to say other than it can combo into a Fair-Footstool

Fair- Fair is a very interesting move with a plethora of properties to use for edgeguarding the most flashy way to do this is a fair-footstool, which if carried out properly from ledge our you could IN THEORY get the footstool in the air without the grounded setup. If the fotstool is landed it could be fatal (not exactly useful but worth mentioning) Fair also has a drag down property similar to bair, allows a frame advantage to Pikachu (again not very useful to edgeguarding but possibly good to know) Fair is a deccent option for getting a stage spike, or at early percents (extended by shield mode) can combo into itself possibly fair chaining Shulk into a gimp. ESAM's video on a fair footstool https://yt.eltuboadventista.com/watch?v=NVNJna7Qy0U

QA- Most of the uses of QA should already be known, however ESAM at one point SHINE 2016 he gimped M2K 2nd game with QA at extremely low percents not sure if applicable for Shulk but useful to know. Could if started near Shulk could take away Jump momentum.

Tjolt-There are 2 different forms of tjolt that should be established airbore tjolt and grounded tjolt
Grounded- This form of 2 jolt will climb up and down walls interfering with Shulk's recovery if he does a nearly vertical recovery also can be used to cover an aerial to ensure a safer approach.
Aerial- Use this defensively to make him lose Jump momentum and force him to recover low to allow for an easier edgeguard. I personal use this the most immediately after a forward or back throw offstage.

Ok now that we have covered the different tools used in Pikachu's edgeguarding lets go a bit more in depth on how this can be more applicable for Shulk.

Since Shulk does not have anything protecting him all Pikachu really has to worry about is if he will recover high or low and when he uses his DJ (double jump) and where his Sword will hit

Recovering high: most useful tactic I have for when Shulks recover high is to go underneath them and try to snag a dragdown thunder ( try to be subtle with it and not commit and go really deep). If you get predictable then you need to bait out and airdodge and continue the punish. Try to use you DJ before using the thunder to allow extra height and help the chances you won't SD. If he tries to armor through you attempts with Backslash then just shield and punish by throwing him offstage or another kill confirm if available.

Recovering Low: Before we get into reactions for Shulk recovering low we should probably cover how to get him to recover low
A: Heavy pressure with possible dragdown thunder
B: A flurry of Thunder jolts
C: Punish his landings if he does not go for ledge

Ok so now you have the Shulk recovering low there are a plethora of options for this I will take this in 2 chunks one for safer methods and more agressive methods. However in either situation GET RID OF SHULK'S JUMP, it is very rare that he will not use his jump to recover (as long as he is knocked a deccent way from the stage. Getting rid of it should almost always be your first priority.

Defensive: Basically you don't really want to go offstage, you have a lead and you feel like you don't want to chance a reverse edgeguard, so you throw an array of projectiles to harras and kill Shulk. Thunder and Tjolt will be your main tools, if he reovers low jump and shoot tjolts to possibly take his jump and if he recovers high try to do a dragdown thunder (unless you mess it up really badly it should be safe) or wait and hit him with a thunder 2 frame or hit him before he snaps ledge so he does not get his DJ back. You are more then welcome to switch im=n between defensive and oiffensive you could start with tjolts and end with a bair or dair or start wih fairs and dairs and nairs and finish with a thunder 2 frame.

Offensive: Dropdown bairs and dairs are useful for knocking Shulk away and agressive aerials to take away his DJ and knock him farther into the blast zone, taking his jump is even more important when he is in his jump monado, he will also take a bit of extra damage. In the process you should be aware that at low percents you have little knockback and therefore very low chance of gimping or killing Shulk, however an edgeguard is not always meant to kill, racking up extra damage is important to Pikachu. at higher percents 70+ you should be aiming for a kill, without his jump monado activated his recovery is lamentable and you have a decent chance of scoring a gimp. Also test your opponent's teching ability, if he gets a tech reasonably often I would try to gimp him without a stage spike, if that is not working you can make him tech multiple times in one go. As I mentioned before Pikachu has a ton of different mopves with different multi hits and knockback qualities. If he techs then hit him again and again and again. Make it as hard as possible for him to keep track of what you are using and try to do multiple things every time because if he is gonna tech by golly we are gonna make it as hard as possible!

In summary I would like to say that edgeguarding is intersting in the fact that it is not set in stone, different people have different styles and methods for their edge guarding and these are my own methods and tips. Take what you want from this and use it be creative.

PS. If you would like me to do something similar in the other matchup threads let me know and I will be constantly referencing this because a lot of this info is very general.

Sources: Krogane Hammer and ESAM's youtube channel

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

DeltaForce i use . And I've heard they all cover the matchups. So I'm looking for who will cover the character problems that mega man has.

SteadyDisciple ,,, are the main ones.