The Lycia Alliance: Roy Legacy Support Thread

[Robert of Normandy]

[COLLAPSE=" "]I'll post this as people might get a kick.

Did you know that Mewtwo and Roy were planned for Brawl. Maybe you did. But you might be surprised how close you were.

>There are a lot of cut characters in Brawl's data. Mewtwo and Roy are both there, but they have something else that sets them apart. Victory themes. Every character (save Wolf) has a file for a victory theme. This would have been like Meta-Knight's theme. It was scrapped for whatever reason, but the file lingers on. Mewtwo and Roy have this which is unique compared to the other cut characters.

>In Brawl, each character has three unlocking conditions. 1)Play a certain number of verses matches 2)Have the character join you in the subspace emissary 3)Complete a specific condition. But Sonic has 4. Why? These might have been meant for Roy and Mewtwo (we know Sonic was added much later in development). In fact, one of them is much like Mewtwo's Melee unlock (Play Brawl for 10 hours)

>After you beat the subspace emissary, door will appear that will take you to fight a hidden character. All of these doors are above the ground where every other door isn't. Well, there are two other doors like this that don't have a character behind them. One is in Skyworld (after Mario joins you) and the other is in the Lakeside (after killing an enemy). The Skyworld one doesn't have anything significant behind it.

>Take a look at the roster for a moment. Now, do the following

1. Remove Sonic and the random box.
2. Move Mr. game and watch and Snake down. Snake should be in the bottom right corner.
3. Move Ness and Lucas to the top right corner.

What two characters fit in there the best?[/COLLAPSE]

Spoiler

 

[Diddy Kong]

In Roy's case I could see it, but how does Mewtwo fit?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

In Roy's case I could see it, but how does Mewtwo fit?

The Fire Emblem row is right next to the Pokemon row.

 

[Diddy Kong]

But the Pokemon row already has 5 rows, don't think a 6th would fit.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

But the Pokemon row already has 5 rows, don't think a 6th would fit.

??? Pokemon has 4 rows, not 5. And if you put Mewtwo on the bottom of the FE row, the Pokemon reps would be arranged in a kind of L-shape.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think Roy should come back. He has enough going for him, and he has a cool redesign.

I really like Roy more than Ike. I don't know why, probably because roy is the son of Eliwood, why starred in the very first fire emblem released outside japan.

And because he had a friggin big sword.

Yeah, Roy was simply one of the best characters that was in Melee and it really sucked when they took him out of Brawl. He had a solid moveset, he moved with fair speed and who didn't love using his B button attack?

I always loved Roy. He was a fun character to play, and manly too. I would love his return.

I'm sure you all have seen his redesign. Despite being based on a Mercenary, it's still an awesome, fresh new look.

IMO, of all the redesigns, Roy's is best if only because it actually looks like a redesign as opposed to him simply having a new class.

I hope he comes back, if only for more Fire Emblem. I wouldn't be surprised if he used his DLC appearance as a shout-out to Nintendo's first paid DLC thing as well (Marth was free for a time). It's certainly been recieved well enough.

I would just like to say to all of these new posters thanks for voicing your support for Roy. Hopefully some of you will become valued contributors to the cause of Roy's triumphant return.

Also, Roy greatly appreciates it:

Most casuals I know even prefer Marth.

I think for myself and most of people, Roy was favored more by casuals. It was easier to hit with the middle of the sword than the tip for most people who were just casual players.

And yes, Roy wasn't bad in a free for all. He's decently quick and his attacks do better closer. Marth could hit harder, but Roy's sweet spot was bigger and easier to use in a large fight. He also had slightly better specials. His air moves sucked though.

I wish better balance had been put into Melee, however, I suppose that is a consequence of the game being very rushed. It actually got worse for Brawl and that game was much less rushed than Melee. I would actually like it if a HD version of Melee was released with the roster properly balanced (with the exception of Pichu who is supposed to be a joke character).

Also, I am hoping we could get to the discussion of how Roy could be changed and balanced for Smash 4. I am hoping to get Thany (the creator of the excellent Roy Brawl hack) on board for this, however, she has not been on SmashBoards since December.

There have been a lot of excellent ideas on how Roy could be made to be vastly different from Marth, even while remaining a Marth clone just from the Brawl hacks I have seen.

 

[SmashChu]

I wish better balance had been put into Melee, however, I suppose that is a consequence of the game being very rushed. It actually got worse for Brawl and that game was much less rushed than Melee. I would actually like it if a HD version of Melee was released with the roster properly balanced (with the exception of Pichu who is supposed to be a joke character).

It all depends who you ask. Competitive players are going to say Melee is more balance, though there seems to be a good amount of movement (heck, ZSS won APEX 2013).

I tend to look at the game for more of a free-for-all perspective (or, really, ignoring competitive Smash). I'd actually say Brawl had better balance. Melee was hit or misss. It was either that your character was great or they sucked hard. In Brawl, there are you strong characters (Pikachu, Snake, Lucas, meta-Knight in 1v1) and your weak characters (Samus, Mario), but generally, everyone is pretty usable and has their strong points. With every character I've played, I've found some hidden strength. I'm sure there would be more I'd discover if SSB4 wasn't coming out.

Also, I am hoping we could get to the discussion of how Roy could be changed and balanced for Smash 4. I am hoping to get Thany (the creator of the excellent Roy Brawl hack) on board for this, however, she has not been on SmashBoards since December.

There have been a lot of excellent ideas on how Roy could be made to be vastly different from Marth, even while remaining a Marth clone just from the Brawl hacks I have seen.

I figure he'd be luigified which you mention in your post. I think what would help is focus on his stronger specials. A more unique over B might help.

 

[Croph]

Also, I am hoping we could get to the discussion of how Roy could be changed and balanced for Smash 4. I am hoping to get Thany (the creator of the excellent Roy Brawl hack) on board for this, however, she has not been on SmashBoards since December.

There have been a lot of excellent ideas on how Roy could be made to be vastly different from Marth, even while remaining a Marth clone just from the Brawl hacks I have seen.

Hmm, discussion on how Roy can be changed? I'm not really good when it comes to these technical things, coming from a casual like me. But I'd love it if he got a unique moveset, but I wouldn't mind if he's luigified, which I can probably see happening.

I know that there was talk about Roy having some of his Skills from Awakening for some of his moves. I kinda like that idea. Like the Holy Shield skill. Maybe some sort of counter/reflector attack? Patience? Some sort of dodging move that can lead to a strike? Idk. Roy can have some really creative moves, he's got a lot going for him.

Buy anyway, I made this picture some time ago. I can't draw ****, and my scanner's really bad. But it does have Roy in it, so like, why not show it? This is actually what I picture what the Forbidden 7/cuts are probably doing. Like, in Shrek the Thrid there's a bar where only the villains go to. I imagine something like that, but with the cuts instead. So sad I know. :'< lol

[collapse=The Reject Bar]

[/collapse]

You know, I really wish there was a real support Roy thread. Something where the OP could be edited to add in movesets, music, fan art, and whatever for Roy. Like what every other newcomer under the sun has. But I guess if that happens then every vet would want one or something. :/

 

[ChronoBound]

I sometimes wish that veteran support topics were not in their own sub-forum. Much less people visit the veteran sub-forum than the "newcomers" character forum. Back during pre-Brawl, veteran character support topics had a lot of activity, but that was because they had their support topics with the rest of the possible Brawl newcomers.

I think the Mewtwo and Roy support topics would be having more activity than they do right now if they were on the main forum. I also don't like that the first posts for cut veterans are left barren.

I hope that I could convince Xiivi to re-edit the opening post for this topic to make it more like a proper character support topic.

I am curious how others feel about this.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I am curious how others feel about this.

Don't care about it. In fact this is easily more organized and convenient then being cluttered along with the newcomers.
Also don't care much about Roy in particular ether.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I support your idea Chrono, but don't think these topics need to be closed. Just merged with the new topic. And maybe allow some people to make an OP about the veteran characters? Not to disregard the veteran section, as its like Habanero said quite more organised, but still, the lack of quality first posts keeps people away.

I've got some ideas infact how to change Roy, and one would be to work with his sweetspot better. Make it have a Fire effect added, and make it do more damage. Meanwhile, his tip shouldn't be as weak as in Melee either. And he should use his sword with both his hands, like how he handles the Sword of Seals in FE6. Also, a projectile would be cool. Maybe even charge his blade with B so the Fire effects are even stronger? Though, I copied that idea from someones moveset from much earlier and I don't know who... Would like to read that one moveset again, cause it was pretty well done. Also like the idea of using some Awakening skills, as Sol perhaps for his Up B. Where it would restore a little damage.

Nice picture though Croph.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

[collapse=The Reject Bar]

[/collapse]

Dude

Doc's not a reject. You ever read Awkward Zombie?

 

[Croph]

^ Hahaha. That's true. But you get the idea I was trying to bring.

But is it true that during pre-brawl the vet support topics had more activity than what we're seeing now? I mean even if they were in the same crowded place as the newcomers, doesn't that tell you something? I'd love a place were us Roy fans can get together and share ideas that can be added to the OP like good movesets, music, art, and more goodies. I think it would give this thread more personality or whatever.

 

[Qlaw]

why give roy a sweetspot at all? that's on way to make them differ. Roy's sword was/is almost useless in melee because of it's sweetspot.

I don't understand why so many people(mostly americans, surprisingly) wish for roy to stay out of smash 4. Many claim that since he's bad he lost his chance. So, because a character is created BEFORE his game came out and they had little info on him(which is the main reason i think he was a clone, and time restraints) means he doesn't deserve to be in another installment?

Unless they're going with marth and the newset fe lord approach, i feel as though Roy is the second most likely fe to be alongside marth(ironically, his father is ranked above him imo).

posted this awhile ago. seems to fit back into the topic.

 

[•Col•]

I agree that removing his sweetspot altogether would ironically make him more unique. The Marth's sweetspot is what makes him unique in the cast. Taking away Roy's sweetspot would make him stand out from Marth who he's supposed to be a clone of. It'd be an easy way to Luigi-fy him from Marth in that he would have less risk(not punished as harshly for messed up spacing) but less reward(not as powerful attacks). His knockback/damage levels for attacks could be in between Marth's tippered and non-tippered attacks.

So yeah. Take away the sweetspot, maybe put some more emphasis on his Special B moves, give him a couple unique attacks and then you'd have a whole new, unique character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Removing the sweetspot would be more than fine. But I think should his sweetspot return, it should be one with a fire effect, and be much more powerful than usual. Maybe he could have his Neutral B be such a move? He'd gain fire power in his blade, which would also allow him to create a big blast of fire for his Side B attack (which'd otherwise be a much weaker blast), When you charge, the Sword of Seals becomes engulfed in flames, fully charged, it becomes all white, and the Side B becomes an explosion of similar strenght as his charged B in Melee, yet weaker, cause of balance issues of coarse. No OHKO, but damn, no character would want to get hit by it after 100% for sure.

I think this alone could make Roy more than interessting. Even if he where to play exactly like Marth, if he'd had only this, he'd be more than awesome already. But I personally believe he'll at least be a Luigified Marth clone.

Better yet, the neutral B could even have Roy heal himself, but he'll eventually start damaging himself slightly the more hits he makes with his fire effect. Makes it more strategic to use this when you actually have to try to finish someone off, or have to build heavy damage quickly. The neutral B would be a big boon in KO power, but it costs him a little bit of his range. So Roy still has to be careful not using this too much.

 

[Croph]

Is there a logical reason why Roy (and Marth) have sweetspots? I mean, does it make it harder or easier for people to master them? Or maybe they wanted to differentiate Roy and Marth from Link? Is it an advantage to have a sweetspot in their case, or does it restrain them? Also, is there a reason why Ike's sword doesn't have a sweetspot? Sorry, I'm asking so many questions...But I'm just curious.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The sweet spot allows Marth to build up combos easier with no cost to power; rack up damage with the base of the Falchion then land the finishing blow with the tip. Of course that does make him a fairly tricky character to master.

Roy having the sweet spot at the base of the Sword of Seals however hinders the potential for KO's, due to the fact that you had to get dangerously close to the opponent in order to unleash maximum power.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Is there a logical reason why Roy (and Marth) have sweetspots? I mean, does it make it harder or easier for people to master them? Or maybe they wanted to differentiate Roy and Marth from Link? Is it an advantage to have a sweetspot in their case, or does it restrain them? Also, is there a reason why Ike's sword doesn't have a sweetspot? Sorry, I'm asking so many questions...But I'm just curious.

I think they added the sweetspots to Marth and Roy's blades to make them more different from each other. In Marth's case -since he was added earlier than Roy- he had it because he uses a rapier as his personal weapon (amongst Falchion, his sword in Smash), and rapiers are long thin swords with a very sharp tip. Meant for stabbing attacks mostly. Marth's neutral B in Brawl best reflects this. As it's also much stronger at the tip.

For Roy's case, I have no idea. As in FE6 (came out after Melee though) he also uses a rapier as personal weapon, aside his trademark blade, the Sword of Seals (which is a fire sword obviously). My only clue is again to make Roy different from Marth.

But seeing as Marth's sweetspot is far longer ranged, he's strong from a far, not to mentoin; stronger in general, and Roy's strong attacks are somewhat lacking in range. Plus, Marth is slightly faster, so he basically has all the advantages over Roy in competitive battling. Roy's sweetspot is easier to master for novices, but Marth's sweetspot is far more rewarding.

 

[Qlaw]

I like the idea of his b being just a charge that makes his attacks stronger, perhaps only at the center. to even it out, every time you'd want to "charge more" it'd basically reset. So pretty much every time you press/hold be the charge resets. This would help too if the max charge slowly hurt roy as well

 

[LunchPolice]

While I think Roy is neat, I really doubt he'll get in SSB4. From what I can tell, he's not really that relevant when it comes to the Fire Emblem series and there are lots of characters with more interesting weapons and moveset potential to draw from. Sakurai's trying to make this SSB a bit more different rather than just adding more, right? I doubt he's going to want to add much in the way of clones, and especially not clones he's already removed from the series. While they technically COULD make a new moveset for the guy, it seems like a waste of dev time to make an entirely new moveset for some guy that hasn't had a game since the GBA(irrc). I know they revive old games sometimes but that's like taking Link's design from Oracle of Ages. And what could they do with him, anyway? He's just another sword user except he has flames. There's gotta be another pyrokinetic sword user in Nintendo's rich library of characters (Takamaru, anyone?). There are new Fire Emblem characters now and Roy just isn't particularly relevant. So... I don't think he's gonna be in this game.

His badass voice from Melee shall be missed.

 

[Watashi]

I've been thinking all night about both Roy and Metwo, and decided besides the brawl cast they are the closest thing Smash 4 has for Shoe ins.


Roy has enough fan support in Japan and overseas. In Melee he and Marth were considered by Casual's to be cooler then Link and Young Link. His redesign is considered to be really cool in Awakening.


Mewtwo is iconic. Many people remember him from Gen 1 as this Bad*** who was the most powerful Pokemon. Him also being in The first movie also helped. He also wasn't a clone, and the backlash for removing him was gigantic. (remember the Mewtwo vs Lucario war's of 2008?)

While both were Low tier, they still have massive popularity. So much that I don't think Sakurai can ignore it.

 

[LunchPolice]

I've been thinking all night about both Roy and Metwo, and decided besides the brawl cast they are the closest thing Smash 4 has for Shoe ins.

That's a pretty bold claim. Especially when it comes to Roy.

Roy has enough fan support in Japan and overseas.

While I won't say that's inaccurate, is fan support enough to bring back a clone?

In Melee he and Marth were considered by Casual's to be cooler then Link and Young Link.

Really? From my experience playing SSBM with a number of friends, I can't say I remember anyone sharing that view. At the very least, I doubt Sakurai shares that view and I haven't even seen any polls about it.

His redesign is considered to be really cool in Awakening.

I... don't think "he looks cool" is really a viable argument for Roy being a shoe-in. Besides, isn't Roy just a DLC or something? From what I can tell he's not even story relevant to Fire Emblem Awakening. He just has a cool new outfit. I mean it's not like Sakurai would have added Electrabuzz to the pokemon side just because he looks cool. He's just some random guy who happens to have an extremely impractical but cool-looking character design. I mean... what?

I mean I guess I like Roy but there's no way he'll get in over Chrom or the variety of other popular Fire Emblem characters.

 

[ChronoBound]

I mean I guess I like Roy but there's no way he'll get in over Chrom or the variety of other popular Fire Emblem characters.

The only two Fire Emblem characters that have a realistic shot at getting in Smash 4 that were not playable in Brawl are Roy and Chrom.

Its important to note that even with Chrom's game being released in Japan, Roy is still requested more.

Also, its not an unlikely possibility that we will get Marth, Roy, Ike, and Chrom, especially considering how popular FE characters are within Smash Bros., and how easy it would be to re-include Roy (Sakurai has likely already mapped out his changes for Roy back during Brawl's development).

Heck, Sakurai even had the intent to bring back Dr. Mario, and he was nowhere near as popular as Mewtwo and Roy were. I think Sakurai's intention will be to bring back the entire Brawl roster (plus Mewtwo and Roy), and the only thing that will bump them out will be time constraints (like what happened with Brawl).

 

[LunchPolice]

The only two Fire Emblem characters that have a realistic shot at getting in Smash 4 that were not playable in Brawl are Roy and Chrom.

I dunno. I'd expect if they're gonna add a character that isn't Chrom, it wouldn't just be another basic sword user. There are enough of those in the series already.

Its important to note that even with Chrom's game being released in Japan, Roy is still requested more.

Yeah but Fire Emblem Awakening is clearly getting a lot of love from Nintendo at the moment. I mean it's even got TV ads and the like. They're pushing the marketing a lot, seems like they're trying pretty hard to put the series out there and it seems like they're succeeding. It seems only natural to include Chrom - the newest hero of the series - in a big-budget Smash Brothers game, over some guy from a GBA title.

Also, its not an unlikely possibility that we will get Marth, Roy, Ike, and Chrom, especially considering how popular FE characters are within Smash Bros., and how easy it would be to re-include Roy (Sakurai has likely already mapped out his changes for Roy back during Brawl's development).
Heck, Sakurai even had the intent to bring back Dr. Mario, and he was nowhere near as popular as Mewtwo and Roy were. I think Sakurai's intention will be to bring back the entire Brawl roster (plus Mewtwo and Roy), and the only thing that will bump them out will be time constraints (like what happened with Brawl).

I disagree. I don't know how far Roy (and Dr. Mario for that matter) got into development for Brawl, but I doubt he'll be in SSB4 because of the new direction the series seems to be taking. Sakurai has said a few times that he's not so interested in just adding more content and instead wants to make things unique. I doubt he'll be particularly interested in clones anymore, and it seems he definitely won't just add one because it's easy. I also think a direction like that means less new characters and stuff, so... yeah. I just don't think there's a place for Roy in the new Smash.

 

[ChronoBound]

Chrom stuff

The problem you are assuming is that just because Roy is not relevant (and neither is Mewtwo, Ike, Lucario, and Jigglypuff) that they will not be in Smash 4.

Roy and Mewtwo were the only two characters not on the roster that were part of a listing for unique victory theme files (by comparison Dr. Mario, Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, and Plusle & Minun were not listed). Sakurai has also stated that he had more characters planned (likely the Forbidden 7) but could not get them in due to time constraints. Its a likely possibility that the very late inclusion of Sonic bumped Mewtwo and Roy out since resources for Sonic's inclusion (as well as including all of the Sonic series content) had to be diverted from them to Sonic, especially considering Sonic was by far the most wanted character for Brawl.

Also, there is the upcoming Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, which may bring back all the previous lords for this crossover (Roy is even shown way up in front in the teaser trailer for it). So the argument that Roy is not relevant may become moot anyway.

There is also the possibility that FE6 may end up being remade, since IS has stated they have an interest in doing that (they have already gone with a remake of Akaneia Senki for FE12, and have done FE All-Stars for FE13, and may be doing FE All-Stars again for SMT X FE).

If you want to continue to debate Roy's chances for Smash 4 with me, please take it to a PM. This is the Roy support topic. We already get it that you don't think Roy won't be in Smash 4.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

. It seems only natural to include Chrom - the newest hero of the series - in a big-budget Smash Brothers game, over some guy from a GBA title.

You're forgetting one very important part.

Roy was playable in SSBM. That is where he gets most of his popularity. The fact that he is a popular FE Lord on top of that, increase his chances even more.

All Roy needs is a new move set and he's good to go.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Except he is a popular because of Super Smash Bros. In Fire Emblem, he's one of the weakest Lords in the entire series, mainly because he gets promoted ridiculously late in Fire Emblem: Sword Of Seals and has to suffer a big handicap because of it. If it wasn't for Super Smash Bros., people would actually hate Roy for being such a load of a Lord.

 

[LunchPolice]

Well-

Wait, before I take this any further...

If you want to continue to debate Roy's chances for Smash 4 with me, please take it to a PM. This is the Roy support topic. We already get it that you don't think Roy won't be in Smash 4.

Roy... support topic? Where does it say that? Furthermore, what is the point in a thread where everyone agrees with each other and just reinforce the same viewpoint over and over again? Having a Roy support thread and a Roy denial thread just means that no one will ever have their arguments challenged. Denying the possibility of other opinions doesn't seem particularly healthy or... discussion worthy. I mean I'm honestly not trying to be hateful or anything.

 

[ChronoBound]

Roy... support topic? Where does it say that? Furthermore, what is the point in a thread where everyone agrees with each other and just reinforce the same viewpoint over and over again? Having a Roy support thread and a Roy denial thread just means that no one will ever have their arguments challenged. Denying the possibility of other opinions doesn't seem particularly healthy or... discussion worthy. I mean I'm honestly not trying to be hateful or anything.

You are simply repeating the same talking points over and over again. We have spoke our points and you have spoken your points, neither side will cede, which will thus lead to continuous back and forth bickering with nothing of merit being accomplished.

There is more to a support topic than "I want this character to be in". We discuss possible movesets, ways to organize, better ways to form our arguments in support of a character, obstacles toward inclusion, and basically things pertaining to the character (like our experiences playing with them in their own games, or if they are a Smash veteran, our experience playing with them in Melee/Brawl/64).

Except he is a popular because of Super Smash Bros. In Fire Emblem, he's one of the weakest Lords in the entire series, mainly because he gets promoted ridiculously late in Fire Emblem: Sword Of Seals. If it wasn't for Super Smash Bros., people would actually hate Roy for being a load.

Roy is still popular in Japan despite being a weak lord in FE6 (there are some that even thought that it was a good change of pace for the series). Heck, Leaf is my favorite lord in the FE series (the guy in my avatar) and he is the weakest lord in the series. People like Micaiah too despite her being weak as well.

Interestingly enough, I was reading a Japanese topic about ideas for a possible FE6 remake, and they repeated a lot of the ideas we mentioned here (Roy promoting at Chapter 16, possibly having a Generation mechanic by combining FE6 + FE7, bringing in characters introduced in FE7 for the FE6 remake).

 

[Croph]

So uh, even though FE13 has already been released in Japan, Roy is still requested more than Chrom? That's interesting to say the least, I guess I wasn't expecting that.

A FE6 remake would be really cool. They could get really creative by adding in new elements and stuff. So, if they were to make one, what new things would you guys like to see? I like the idea of Roy promoting more early hahaha.

 

[LunchPolice]

You are simply repeating the same talking points over and over again. We have spoke our points and you have spoken your points, neither side will cede, which will thus lead to continuous back and forth bickering with nothing of merit being accomplished.

Or maybe no side will cede yet. Dude... we haven't been talking that long. Call me stubborn, but I thought this conversation held some merit. I mean... I liked it... D: I'mma keep going for a little longer because F*** THE POLICE (also I have nothing better to do today)

There is more to a support topic than "I want this character to be in". We discuss possible movesets, ways to organize, better ways to form our arguments in support of a character, obstacles toward inclusion

Obstacles toward inclusion? Isn't that what this conversation is? Besides, I still haven't seen anything showing how this is a support thread specifically. The first post says "Discuss all information pertaining to Roy in this thread."

The problem you are assuming is that just because Roy is not relevant (and neither is Mewtwo, Ike, Lucario, and Jigglypuff) that they will not be in Smash 4.

Well... still seems like a pretty good point to me. I mean if relevance had nothing to do with it, why did they put time into creating Lucario before restoring Mewtwo? Seems like newer, more modern characters take priority. I mean Mewtwo probably would have gotten in if they had more time but obviously Lucario was more important.

Roy and Mewtwo were the only two characters not on the roster that were part of a listing for unique victory theme files (by comparison Dr. Mario, Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, and Plusle & Minun were not listed). Sakurai has also stated that he had more characters planned (likely the Forbidden 7) but could not get them in due to time constraints. Its a likely possibility that the very late inclusion of Sonic bumped Mewtwo and Roy out since resources for Sonic's inclusion (as well as including all of the Sonic series content) had to be diverted from them to Sonic, especially considering Sonic was by far the most wanted character for Brawl.

As I've said before(and you haven't responded to), SSB4 is trying to be more unique rather than just have more content. When there's already Marth, Ike, and Chrom, I don't think there's room for another character from Fire Emblem. From what I can tell they're not going all out with new characters anymore, so they'd want to pick their challengers carefully. I think they'll be thinking about what each new character can bring to the table not only in terms of series representation, but in moveset. I think Ike pretty much stole Roy's archetype. Then again, what even was Roy's archetype? He was just a slower, stronger(?) version of Marth. Smash Bros now has a slow, strong sword user with a chargeable fire-based neutral B. Having an in-between Marth and Ike character wouldn't do much for variety. Something important to discuss is what they'd do with his moveset if he were to be decloned. What can happen outside of different sword swipes than Marth? They both have the same kind of sword except one has firey effects on the end of his attacks. If he ended up vastly different from Marth, would the players who liked Roy even use him anymore?

Also, there is the upcoming Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, which may bring back all the previous lords for this crossover (Roy is even shown way up in front in the teaser trailer for it). So the argument that Roy is not relevant may become moot anyway.

Well... if that game brings back every lord, doesn't that mean they're all on equal footing? Does that not make every returning lord equally relevant? And I guess they probably brought him to the front because he's one of the more recognisable characters due to being in Melee.

There is also the possibility that FE6 may end up being remade, since IS has stated they have an interest in doing that (they have already gone with a remake of Akaneia Senki for FE12, and have done FE All-Stars for FE13, and may be doing FE All-Stars again for SMT X FE).

If it was only being considered around the time the Smash team were deciding their character roster, I dunno if it would've really mattered.

 

[ChronoBound]

.
As I've said before(and you haven't responded to), SSB4 is trying to be more unique rather than just have more content.

Nowhere did Sakurai say that extended to characters. The fact is that there is very few characters left that are not in Smash Bros. that many people can agree on should be included. Roy is among those few (especially considering characters that are both highly requested in Japan and the West). Some like Ridley and Little Mac are only highly requested in the West (though the Japanese fanbase recognizes that those two characters are popular here).

Also, in regards SMT X FE, it would help Roy more than others, because Roy's only problem as you said is "relevancy", and Roy is far more requested than all the other lords in the series with the exception of Chrom.

In regards to being a clone, it is not an obstacle to inclusion but rather a merit. Sakurai has said that the effort of creating six clones is roughly equal to making one totally unique character. Back during pre-Brawl, Midna and Krystal fans said that Toon Link and Wolf would not get in due to likely being turned into clones, well... they were only half right.

The fact is that even if Sakurai decides to bring Roy back as a Marth clone that:
1. He would take less effort to include than fully original characters (both due to already being in Smash Bros. and Sakurai already have some ideas on how to change up Roy back when he was planned for Brawl).

2. He will be luigi-fied to a certain extent at the very least (look at Falco and Ganondorf).

The fact is also that "clones" despite sharing moves with originals, play completely different than their originals. Just look at Link and Toon Link at the tier list for Brawl, Toon Link is the most "cloney" of the clones in Brawl, yet he plays completely different than regular Link.

Clones don't steal spots from other characters on the roster, they augment them. I bet more people were happy that Wolf even got in Brawl then that he shared five moves with Fox and Falco. The whining about "clones" is vastly overdone.

However, my expectation for Roy is that he will still be based off of Marth to a certain extent, but he will have an unique special or two, and have at least some unique A-moves.

 

[LunchPolice]

Nowhere did Sakurai say that extended to characters.

He did, actually.
http://youtu.be/mL1pTL-opGk

The fact is that there is very few characters left that are not in Smash Bros. that many people can agree on should be included. Roy is among those few (especially considering characters that are both highly requested in Japan and the West). Some like Ridley and Little Mac are only highly requested in the West (though the Japanese fanbase recognizes that those two characters are popular here).

I'll concur with that. (While I think Little Mac has a better chance of getting in, that's another topic entirely)

Also, in regards SMT X FE, it would help Roy more than others, because Roy's only problem as you said is "relevancy", and Roy is far more requested than all the other lords in the series with the exception of Chrom.

Well... hmm. Until we see what his role in that game is, I'll hold back on arguing about this point.

In regards to being a clone, it is not an obstacle to inclusion but rather a merit. Sakurai has said that the effort of creating six clones is roughly equal to making one totally unique character.

Which is why I think we'll probably see less new characters in this game. Sakurai doesn't want things that "simply fatten up the game". It seems the goal of Brawl was to add as much ridiculous levels of content as possible. Brawl is a game where they added stickers, a coin launcher, GAME DEMOS. That's clearly not what they're going for anymore.

The fact is that even if Sakurai decides to bring Roy back as a Marth clone that:
1. He would take less effort to include than fully original characters (both due to already being in Smash Bros. and Sakurai already have some ideas on how to change up Roy back when he was planned for Brawl).

He'd take less effort but he'd sorta undermine their whole goal with SSB4. Adding a clone back in seems counterproductive.

2. He will be luigi-fied to a certain extent at the very least (look at Falco and Ganondorf).

The fact is also that "clones" despite sharing moves with originals, play completely different than their originals. Just look at Link and Toon Link at the tier list for Brawl, Toon Link is the most "cloney" of the clones in Brawl, yet he plays completely different than regular Link.

I'm pretty sure casuals(who seem to be the main demographic) don't see it that way. I mean lots of people even think Wolf is a clone just cause he has a few similar specials. And while Roy can be given some new moves, I just can't see it being in a way that makes for much variety. Also Roy was never that different from Marth. Characters like Ganondorf and Falco had much more important stat changes that differentiated them from their base characters.

 

[ChronoBound]

He did, actually.
http://youtu.be/mL1pTL-opGk

That was all the way back in 2008. Secondly, he added in Toon Link who was pretty close to being a "Melee-style" clone (and even then Toon Link had a much different playstyle compared to Link). Roy at the very least will be as different from Marth as Falco and Ganondorf are to Fox and Captain Falcon specifically.

He'd take less effort but he'd sorta undermine their whole goal with SSB4. Adding a clone back in seems counterproductive.

Nowhere did Sakurai say that his goal for Smash 4 would not be adding in any "clones" (all of which would luigi-fiied to a certain extent). Also, adding in one popularly requested "clone" would not break the bank. Though I think we could get other luigified clone newcomers like Chrom, Impa, Toon Zelda, Bowser Jr., and Dixie Kong. Dr. Mario and Pichu being brought back is also a possibility.

I'm pretty sure casuals(who seem to be the main demographic) don't see it that way. I mean lots of people even think Wolf is a clone just cause he has a few similar specials. And while Roy can be given some new moves, I just can't see it being in a way that makes for much variety. Also Roy was never that different from Marth. Characters like Ganondorf and Falco had much more important stat changes that differentiated them from their base characters.

Casuals may think Wolf is a clone, but they still love using him anyway.

Roy also played much differently from Marth in Melee. The problem though was that Roy was not balanced right for high levels of competitive play, so he is not tourney-viable like Marth is.

If Smash 4 is unbalanced with its characters like Melee/Brawl were, I expect patches (heck for Sakurai's latest game Kid Icarus Uprising, a balancing patch was released for it).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well-

Wait, before I take this any further...


Roy... support topic? Where does it say that? Furthermore, what is the point in a thread where everyone agrees with each other and just reinforce the same viewpoint over and over again? Having a Roy support thread and a Roy denial thread just means that no one will ever have their arguments challenged. Denying the possibility of other opinions doesn't seem particularly healthy or... discussion worthy. I mean I'm honestly not trying to be hateful or anything.

I don't see the badness in this either. It adds to the activity in this thread.

Personally, I also want Roy in. But sort of agree wih your sentiment, as I shared it briefly. But I think Roy really should be considered cause of his mass popularity.

He'd make an easy 4th character addition for Smash. Plus, he's right now appearing on recent FE titles, so you're arguement kinda holds no water in this regard. Sure, SmT x FE or Roy appearing as DLC in FE13 is not the same as a FE6 remake of coarse, but still, it counts as an appearance. Two even. And outside of Japan.

If Roy was also considered for Brawl, no doubts they'll make plans for him this time to. They did really well in Brawl with Luigified clones, and I doubt we'd see the best of those yet (**** the haters, I love Wolf and Toon Link!). So Roy makes an easy addition, plus a very popular one.

No doubt we'll see Chrom before him if we just get 3 FE characters (Ike stays to cause of arguement ^ plus: Radiant Dawn). But if we're getting 4, as we should, expect Roy in.

 

[FlareHabanero]

(heck for Sakurai's latest game Kid Icarus Uprising, a balancing patch was released for it).

No, there wasn't a balance patch released.

 

[ChronoBound]

No, there wasn't a balance patch released.

Ah, I must have remembered wrong. There was some sort of patch released for Uprising though. The point is though that Sakurai would be open to patching his games if the situation called for it.

Edit: I looked into it, and looks like I was right, but I could not find out what the patch was for:
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/29901

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Ah, I must have remembered wrong. There was some sort of patch released for Uprising though. The point is though that Sakurai would be open to patching his games if the situation called for it.

I haven't heard anything about a patch. Though I don't see why Sakurai not releasing a patch for KI:U or any of the Smash games means it wouldn't be possible for Smash 4.

 

[LunchPolice]

I don't understand why the "make the game unique" thing wouldn't apply to the characters too. They're a major part of the game. Why wouldn't that goal apply to everything in general?

Also I got Kid Icarus Uprising recently and I was never prompted to download any patch.