The Last Nintendo All-Star: Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits

RetrogamerMax

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Diddy Kong

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Played through DKC2, and now am doing Tropical Freeze again. I now remember why I love both games so much. I try not to over play them, cause the magic will be gone. It already slightly happened with DKC2, because frankly, I began to enjoy DKC1 a bit more, simply for not remembering it as well as 2.

I never 200% cleared Tropical Freeze, neither did I finish Funky Mode. Am working on that now. Amiss Abyss is the last level I need to clear on Hard Mode, collecting all KONG letters. Right now am using Dixie for it, she has the best underwater ability after all. But it's not easy.

Am hoping DKC3 gets released on the SNES app for Switch honestly. Haven't played that one in a long time either.

Also check out my new shirt.

 
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BirthNote

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So this person was joking, but this idea that Dixie NEEDS to be an echo is and always has been extremely annoying and wrong.View attachment 288531
One solution is to bombard them with moveset ideas. You can share VeemonTamer's moveset, Delzethin's vid or my Google doc in the OP. There's also a couple of other movesets in there that'll make a great impression. Usually, seeing is believing so we'll go from there.

I added the digital art ideas of mine to my google doc just now.

EDIT: Here's the link just in case.

Sone of the images look ugly on a phone so desktop/laptop is best for the time being.
 
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Diddy Kong

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The more I play as Dixie alone, the more I think of moveset possibilities.

For once, I think her Up B should more or less be the way she propelled her hair underwater in Tropical Freeze. Safe the actual Helicopter Spin for a float mechanic similar to Peach, but working like it did in DKC2 and 3. This would give Dixie a super great recovery and air game, but I imagine she should be a tad lighter than Diddy even to make up for it.

Down B the hair slam from Tropical Freeze seems good. Safe the new extra jump for her double jump. She could also have a hair grab for one of her Special attacks, that works like a proper command grab, or simply DK's cargo, but as a special move. And give her a regular grab for actual grabbing. Her throws should send enemies skyward so she can utilise her aerial abilities to the full extent.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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With Dixie I always thought you could incorporate more complex mechanics just by utilizing elements from the games proper

Like maybe 2-4 of her special attacks involve her riding/carried by an animal buddy for attacks (up special with Squawks, side special with Rambi, etc) If ridden long enough, the buddy then turns into a powerful barrel for Dixie to then pick up and throw as a weapon ala the "No Animal" signs from DKC 2/3. The obvious choice is the TNT variation but there's options obviously.

If executed well enough I think there's balance as you have to stay on the buddy long enough (ie don't get hit too many times or change animals) and there's potential for other fighters to grab the barrel if you're not careful. Its nothing groundbreaking but it would make her unique in comparison to virtually everyone else.
 

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Dixie's not an omega-tier popular character like Banjo, nor does she have a unique and complex list of mechanics to pull from like Steve. If they want to make her appealing as a DLC character, I can think of a few ways to do this.

  1. Lots and lots of hair attacks. Her prehensile ponytail is the thing that makes her stand out in her home series, and it has a lot of potential in Smash as well. Using it to hover and attack/grab enemies is a given, but she could also use it to propel herself in any direction, blow gusts of wind, and prop herself up to extend the range of her kicks. There are a lot of possibilities to explore here.​
  2. Animal buddies. The animal buddies are a big part of the DKC series, but aren't represented in-game in any way. Dixie could be able to summon them to aid her in battle (she even has an affinity for animals, so it's true to her character!). Squawks as an up-B is an obvious choice, as is Rambi as a side-B to charge into her foes. Maybe even have a way to cycle through different animal buddies like how Min Min can cycle through her arms.​
  3. Kiddy Kong. Now, I know Kiddy Kong is a divisive character, but tag-team gameplay is a key part of the DKC series, and many of the moveset possibilities speak for themselves. Throw Kiddy at enemies for a powerful, but slow, kill move, or have Kiddy throw Dixie for a weaker, but quick long-range attack. Dixie can ride on top of Kiddy while rolling to barrel through enemies, and you could even switch between the two on the fly to better suit the situation.​

These are just some of the ideas I have based on concepts I see floating around. I'm sure Sakurai could come up with something even wilder.
 
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Phoenix Douchebag

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Played through DKC2, and now am doing Tropical Freeze again. I now remember why I love both games so much. I try not to over play them, cause the magic will be gone. It already slightly happened with DKC2, because frankly, I began to enjoy DKC1 a bit more, simply for not remembering it as well as 2.

I never 200% cleared Tropical Freeze, neither did I finish Funky Mode. Am working on that now. Amiss Abyss is the last level I need to clear on Hard Mode, collecting all KONG letters. Right now am using Dixie for it, she has the best underwater ability after all. But it's not easy.

Am hoping DKC3 gets released on the SNES app for Switch honestly. Haven't played that one in a long time either.

Also check out my new shirt.

WAIT! YOU ARE NOT THE ACTUAL DIDDY KONG?

MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE.
 

Dukemon102

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I don't want Dixie to have a Yoshi/Ness/Mewtwo-esque double jump. I'm absolutely terrible with all of them because I could never get used to it. If Dixie had one, I would fight day and night to get used to it just because it's Dixie, but for the sake of my selfishness, I don't want it xD.

I'm not a big fan of Dixie becoming a recipient for a moveset of Animal Buddy specials, I think it undermines Dixie's own capabilities, having a Rambi charge attack sounds fine, but using Squawks to recover when she can just use her ponytail to me sounds like a big no.
Dixie on her own can fight very well with defined special moves that she showed in her game appearances, the Gumball Popgun, using the ponytail to hover, flight, grab items and slam the ground. Some liberties can be taken to give Dixie the guitar attack from Diddy in DK64 or one of Tiny's moves, but I don't think that would be required at all. The only time I would think to do that is to fill the gimmicky Down B which is the big fat Question Mark of Dixie's moveset (I really, REALLY don't want Banana Peel).

I'm never going to oppose to Kiddy becoming a Tag Team with Dixie tho. A mix of :ulticeclimbers: and :ultpokemontrainer: is a novel idea and basically represents what was the core element of the first three DKC games. Imagine if both had their own movesets and the swap button was down special, then some specials in both Kongs were based on the Team Tag Throw. Like ZeroJanitor ZeroJanitor mentioned, if the leader is Kiddy, she can throw Dixie as a projectile like his DKC3's throw and also his Up Special is throwing Dixie to the ledge to recover, without her, he's doomed like solo Popo.
If Dixie is in front, she could initiate a partner roll with Kiddy like she does with DK in the Retro games (I know it was in DKC3, but it was basically a gimmick and a very useless one by the way), or she could throw Kiddy as a stupidly powerful slow projectile that doesn't have that much reach. Shame Kiddy is so divisive, this idea sounds good on paper, if you asked me, I would prefer to go with solo Dixie, because she totally deserves her own spot at this point. But with this current trend of every newcomer having a special gimmick. I could totally see the team-up happening, and I wouldn't complain either. Maybe after DKC3 gets added to Switch online more people will ease their opinion on Kiddy.
 
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Mariomaniac45213

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I still think the animal buddies should only be used in her final smash and thats it. Animal Buddy Stampede. It works like Yoshi's final smash except you know features Dixie hopping on the back of Rambi followed by Ellie, Squawks, Squitter, Winky, Expresso, Rattly, Quawks, Tawks, and Parry. I wish their was a way to include Enguarde but you know...
 
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BirthNote

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I don't want Dixie to have a Yoshi/Ness/Mewtwo-esque double jump. I'm absolutely terrible with all of them because I could never get used to it. If Dixie had one, I would fight day and night to get used to it just because it's Dixie, but for the sake of my selfishness, I don't want it xD.

I'm not a big fan of Dixie becoming a recipient for a moveset of Animal Buddy specials, I think it undermines Dixie's own capabilities, having a Rambi charge attack sounds fine, but using Squawks to recover when she can just use her ponytail to me sounds like a big no.
Dixie on her own can fight very well with defined special moves that she showed in her game appearances, the Gumball Popgun, using the ponytail to hover, flight, grab items and slam the ground. Some liberties can be taken to give Dixie the guitar attack from Diddy in DK64 or one of Tiny's moves, but I don't think that would be required at all. The only time I would think to do that is to fill the gimmicky Down B which is the big fat Question Mark of Dixie's moveset (I really, REALLY don't want Banana Peel).

I'm never going to oppose to Kiddy becoming a Tag Team with Dixie tho. A mix of :ulticeclimbers: and :ultpokemontrainer: is a novel idea and basically represents what was the core element of the first three DKC games. Imagine if both had their own movesets and the swap button was down special, then some specials in both Kongs were based on the Team Tag Throw. Like ZeroJanitor ZeroJanitor mentioned, if the leader is Kiddy, she can throw Dixie as a projectile like his DKC3's throw and also his Up Special is throwing Dixie to the ledge to recover, without her, he's doomed like solo Popo.
If Dixie is in front, she could initiate a partner roll with Kiddy like she does with DK in the Retro games (I know it was in DKC3, but it was basically a gimmick and a very useless one by the way), or she could throw Kiddy as a stupidly powerful slow projectile that doesn't have that much reach. Shame Kiddy is so divisive, this idea sounds good on paper, if you asked me, I would prefer to go with solo Dixie, because she totally deserves her own spot at this point. But with this current trend of every newcomer having a special gimmick. I could totally see the team-up happening, and I wouldn't complain either. Maybe after DKC3 gets added to Switch online more people will ease their opinion on Kiddy.
Let's give her a triple jump then, like Banjo lol. First 2 jumps are normal, 3rd jump is her Tropical Freeze jump.

As for Squawks, I think he would be fine as her Up B. Sure she can fly with her hair, but she can't fly the way Squawks does and that makes a solid difference. Giving her the power to mimic Kirby's jumping would work wonders for her as that's exactly how Squawks functioned in DKC2; all we'd gotta do is slap a timer on it, make her particularly vulnerable while using it or give them a unique property that accounts for Dixie's damage percentage. That will prevent it from being a broken move that Dixie can exploit.

DownB's are anyone's guess. I had her catapult herself into the air with her hair like ZSS when on the ground, and use her hair to spike foes when used off the ground. Think a vertical monkey flip fused with ZSS's down b, but there's other ideas to go off. Perhaps a blown wad of gum, a guitar soundwave, the orange grenades, a barrel cannon that she captures people with and fires them out of. A good brainstorming would get us an answer.
 

JOJONumber691

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My Moveset (not paired with Diddy like intended) gives her some unique tools, parallelling Diddy of course:
Neutral Special: Bubble GumGun: Works exactly how it does in Tropical Freeze.
Side Special: She Spins with her hair. It works Exactly how it does in DKC 2&3.
Up Soecial is the same as Diddy since I think the Rocket Barrel Pack fits both of the Simians.
Down Special is the TNT Barrels. Barrels... THAT EXPLODE. These can be held and thrown just like in the Original DKC Trilogy.
Other Details: She has Ness' Double Jump, and a Cargo Throw.
 

Dukemon102

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Let's give her a triple jump then, like Banjo lol. First 2 jumps are normal, 3rd jump is her Tropical Freeze jump.

As for Squawks, I think he would be fine as her Up B. Sure she can fly with her hair, but she can't fly the way Squawks does and that makes a solid difference. Giving her the power to mimic Kirby's jumping would work wonders for her as that's exactly how Squawks functioned in DKC2; all we'd gotta do is slap a timer on it, make her particularly vulnerable while using it or give them a unique property that accounts for Dixie's damage percentage. That will prevent it from being a broken move that Dixie can exploit.

DownB's are anyone's guess. I had her catapult herself into the air with her hair like ZSS when on the ground, and use her hair to spike foes when used off the ground. Think a vertical monkey flip fused with ZSS's down b, but there's other ideas to go off. Perhaps a blown wad of gum, a guitar soundwave, the orange grenades, a barrel cannon that she captures people with and fires them out of. A good brainstorming would get us an answer.
So it's 3 Jumps, the third jump is basically a recovery move, and then she has Squawks which is a Balloon Trip/Flying Pikmin move, doesn't that sound a bit too much? Dixie is known for her aerial game but we are reaching :metaknight: levels of free recovery here. Not that DK character mains would complain tho, :ultdk: :ultdiddy: and :ultkrool: all get gimped very easily.
For Down B my guess would be the Guitar Soundwave (Or they save that for the Final Smash, since the DK64 instruments were screen nukes). Gumball Popgun sounds like it feels the role of gum move if they add a sticky property, and the Gun + Orange grenades would make her too zoner heavy. Another idea I had was Dixie using the ponytail as a reflector, if that makes sense. Setting a Barrel cannon sounds fun, and convenient because that item isn't in the game.

Up Soecial is the same as Diddy since I think the Rocket Barrel Pack fits both of the Simians.
I don't know about that. Doesn't this look a bit.... odd?

 

JOJONumber691

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So it's 3 Jumps, the third jump is basically a recovery move, and then she has Squawks which is a Balloon Trip/Flying Pikmin move, doesn't that sound a bit too much? Dixie is known for her aerial game but we are reaching :metaknight: levels of free recovery here. Not that DK character mains would complain tho, :ultdk: :ultdiddy: and :ultkrool: all get gimped very easily.
For Down B my guess would be the Guitar Soundwave (Or they save that for the Final Smash, since the DK64 instruments were screen nukes). Gumball Popgun sounds like it feels the role of gum move if they add a sticky property, and the Gun + Orange grenades would make her too zoner heavy. Another idea I had was Dixie using the ponytail as a reflector, if that makes sense. Setting a Barrel cannon sounds fun, and convenient because that item isn't in the game.


I don't know about that. Doesn't this look a bit.... odd?

Not really. Just make the Barrels Pink since that seems like something Dixie would do.
 
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BirthNote

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So it's 3 Jumps, the third jump is basically a recovery move, and then she has Squawks which is a Balloon Trip/Flying Pikmin move, doesn't that sound a bit too much? Dixie is known for her aerial game but we are reaching :metaknight: levels of free recovery here. Not that DK character mains would complain tho, :ultdk: :ultdiddy: and :ultkrool: all get gimped very easily.
For Down B my guess would be the Guitar Soundwave (Or they save that for the Final Smash, since the DK64 instruments were screen nukes). Gumball Popgun sounds like it feels the role of gum move if they add a sticky property, and the Gun + Orange grenades would make her too zoner heavy. Another idea I had was Dixie using the ponytail as a reflector, if that makes sense. Setting a Barrel cannon sounds fun, and convenient because that item isn't in the game.
Well in the Squawks scenario let's say we make it so that attacking Squawks leaves her completely helpless, and attacking her when she uses Squawks disables any B moves. The 3rd jump can only be used once in the air, and we have Dixie's damage percentage determine how far Squawks can take her. With low damage, he can barely carry her. High damage and he can take her far, but getting hit at high damage means she's likely to get KO'd.

I'm liking all the Down B ideas so any is fine with me. If we go with the soundwave, the Final Smash can be a superpowerful version of it. Orange Grenades could have a weird trajectory to offset any similarities to the gumball, like Banjo and Diddy's Neutral and Down B's. Reflector would be fine and makes more sense than K. Rool's but I'm not complaining lol. A Barrel Cannon would be a nice change of pace for movesets in general.

Not really. Just make the Barrels Pink since that seems like something Dixie would do.
Nah, that feels more like it's strictly Diddy. I'd rather she use her ponytail over a rocket barrel if I had to pick between those 2.
 
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JOJONumber691

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BRUH The Ponytail is Side Special. Working exactly how it does in DKC 2. Barrel Cannon could work, but Dixie is not getting it unless DK gets it.
 

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BRUH The Ponytail is Side Special. Working exactly how it does in DKC 2. Barrel Cannon could work, but Dixie is not getting it unless DK gets it.
There's 3 different ways Dixie uses her ponytail in the air though. You got the DKC2 and 3 version, the Tropical Freeze double jump and the flying away animation when you put another Kong on DK's back. Either one of those fit better than a rocket barrel, and Squawks is a better fit than a rocket barrel since she used him in DKC2 for at least 3 levels
 

JOJONumber691

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True. I just don't want this character to end up like Sonic in Smash. And The Double Jump is flat out ripped from Tropical Freeze.
 

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Dukemon102

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The more you know.

That was when Rare was sold to Microsoft and writers at Nintendo Power started to trashtalk the DKC games like they were always bad and already looked outdated.
Of course, mis-naming Dixie was the cherry on the top of the disrespect.
 

Jurae818

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I saw the last few posts on the previous page and I want to add on to those points made along with adding my own and I had this suspicion for at least nearly a decade and I think it's time to come to terms with it.

Ask yourselves why Dixie Kong isn't popular? Or moreso, why Donkey Kong isn't as popular with the general populace the way Zelda, Fire Emblem or any other Japanese-originated series (Donkey Kong Country originates from a western source, as well as Donkey Kong today, barring all Arcade-based elements and even then DKC has them as well). Now, I just gave you part of the answer but I'll clarify on that later. Donkey Kong and Mario are sibling series with DK being the oldest and Mario or Super Mario being the younger sibling. Now add DKC into the mix and you have two series that broke from Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario. Donkey Kong and Mario are connected by the arcade game and overall with the Mario spin-off titles, and that's probably where some of the DK neglect comes in.

Remember when Sakurai mentioned that Wario was considered but scrapped because he didn't want too many Mario characters in the game? While Wario is a Mario character in origin, he also has two series of his own, Wario Land and WarioWare, the latter non-existent if not in development at the time, effectively making him his own character. But consider that Sakurai still sees him as a Mario character and consider that Wario only represents WarioWare, not Wario Land (Look how long it took to get a proper replication of his iconic shoulder bash, keyword proper). The same likely applies for Donkey Kong, hence why Dixie was absent from Smash 4 and especially Ultimate where you'd think she'd be able to come in if Sakurai was unaware of Tropical Freeze during Smash 4, but alas.

Is DKC seen as a Mario spin-off? Personally, I say yes. It's definitely far from Mario and has evolved and grown into a very recognizable IP that always breaks at least one million per title, ports included. Compare Donkey Kong Country to Mario vs. Donkey Kong, with each subsequent title selling less to where the later games were digital-only. You would think Mario vs. Donkey Kong could be a nice mishmash of DKC and Super Mario elements rather than an underwhelming arcade retread and later on Lemmings clone. But back to the original point, I think Sakurai saw and still sees Donkey Kong as a Mario sub-series and only now realizes that Donkey Kong is more than just that, hence the overwhelmingly positive response to King K. Rool. You also notice that the same people who were detracting from K. Rool prior to are now saying he was important and played a major role in some of the best selling games of all time? Fickle little curs.

The same people likely had Dixie Kong and Cranky as the next DK reps or worse, only Cranky or even none at all. Now that K. Rool is in, Donkey Kong is now perfectly repped and anything else is seen as being greedy. Fire Emblem can get all its clones and reps and people defend it. The mere mention of Dixie Kong gets people seething like a rabid dog and the notion that she only can be a Diddy echo with DK's recovery shows they don't play DKC or even know the character at all or care. And they don't care about Dixie Kong. I mentioned DKC being western in origin and this also may play a factor in DKC's subdued status. Mario in Smash may as well be a stylized shonen protagonist instead of the happy-go-lucky mascot he is in his own games. Donkey Kong characters have never had the 'cool' element that most Japanese characters in games have, or even the 'relatable' or 'blank-slate' elements that a lot of said characters have too. Donkey Kong is more of a classic style, relying on the merits alone and substance vs. the stylish flair that most Japanese-originated characters have predominately. Think Mickey Mouse vs. Sonic, Donkey Kong being Mickey and Sonic...well being Sonic. The irony that the west playing a role in making a character who was designed with a cool flair even cooler. Mario isn't cool in general, but in Smash those characters get that tinge of coolness to him, Mario especially. Only now is Mario smiling via taunt.

No one can deny that Donkey Kong Country is a very good series, and there's no debate in that area. But it lacks a 'cool' element that Final Fantasy, Sonic, Zelda and many other Japanese-originated series have. I'm glad that it lacks cool elements, personally if the seedier undersides of some fandoms are to go by. But it also means Donkey Kong is in a niche area despite having mainstream appeal and recognition. It doesn't help that DK doesn't have a dedicated studio to continue its success, hence the slump it was in during the 6th generation. An honorable mention to Paon for at least making a few DK titles with some respect to the Rare-related material and the same with Camelot taking an interest in wanting to make a DK64 sequel years back. The interest was there, but it was never followed up on like it should have been. Being in the Mario games more than there have been DK games also hurt the position Donkey Kong's characters are in and it makes people think of them as Mario characters in the grand scheme of things. Dixie is just another Mario character and a Diddy clone to these people and ultimately she's not important enough to be in the game, especially when the Bowser reject got in.

The 3rd party argument is also worth an essay, but I'm already morose as is with Dixie Kong's situation in Smash.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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That was when Rare was sold to Microsoft and writers at Nintendo Power started to trashtalk the DKC games like they were always bad and already looked outdated.
Of course, mis-naming Dixie was the cherry on the top of the disrespect.
That post buyout period was such a waste in hindsight. Granted Rare making any sort of games on GC or Wii was never going to happen after 2002, but them continuing to work on DK for the portables really could have been something. Yeah, the DKC ports were nice but genuinely new titles by Rare going into the DS era might given the series some much needed momentum prior to Returns. Doubly so given that new mainline Mario titles were on hiatus (with only one new game from July 1996 to April 2006) DK could have easily filled that niche.

Heck even beyond that Nintendo never doing a Jungle Beat Sequel on either DS system that had a touch screen is a little surprising in hindsight.
 
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Diddy Kong

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A Jungle Beat sequel keeping at least the elements that Returns had is starting to become a dream of mine, and honestly, it already should've happened. Long time ago.

A 3rd game by Retro also seemed a logical idea. But no. Tropical Freeze might be the best Donkey Kong game ever, but it doesn't get the proper respect. And it probably will be the last DKC game by Retro Studios even.

Rare working on handheld DKC titles would've been great. Was excited back in the day when it was stated Rare could work on handheld Nintendo games. Shame we only got Diddy Kong Racing out of it. Loved it, but there could have been so much more... A DK64 DS is what I also wanted. But no.

I literally hate it how they neglect this franchise so much. And am not a hateful person at all. But it can hardly be justified honestly. Why isn't working on Donkey Kong considered a bigger honor by these game development studios?
 

ChunkySlugger72

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Without a doubt, No other Nintendo franchise has taken a bigger fall from grace than Donkey Kong.

Hell, At one point during the mid-90's it was arguably viewed bigger than Mario as Poke-mania was still a couple years away to take the world by storm, Even DK 64 was seen as the biggest N64 release mid-life cycle.

As mentioned before, While Donkey Kong is still a big and established brand, Many believe the reason it doesn't grab any attention or the respect it deserves is because of the constant identity crisis it has to battle.

Donkey Kong always constantly gets overshadowed by Mario these days, So to the average consumer strolling through the video game aisle at your retail store "Why buy that dumb and goofy ape who sometimes appears in his games when I can buy the much more superior "Super Mario" AKA "Mr. Video Game" instead?"

Donkey Kong is also stuck in this weird middle ground as he is not viewed as "Cute" like Pikachu and is not viewed as "Cool/Edgy" like your average protagonist with a weapon (Gun/Sword), Unfortunately many see monkeys and apes (Despite being the smartest animals around) as stupid, dirty and inferior to humans.

I absolutely love Donkey Kong and while the franchise is more stable this time around, It's not what it used to be during the Rareware era, But like mentioned before it looks like Nintendo has big plans in store for the future.
 
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Dukemon102

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Donkey Kong WAS almost more popular than Mario during the 1994-2000 time period. DK64 was being hyped to be a system seller, and it was hyped as much as Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time were back in the day. Then the buyout happened.

Granted, many of the current popularity problems of the DK franchise today spawn off the wasted 2000s decade. Old people that were fans of the original Arcade DK started to get on influential positions and lambasted the Rare games like they wanted to do it in the 94-98 time for being a different DK not appealing to them, aided by the narrative of the bought of Rare.
Young people that grew up then only knew DK because of his appearance on Mario Spin Offs, and maybe the GBA ports and think of DK and Diddy as Mario characters and DKC as that sub-franchise that only "exists".
And you have the passionate DK fans angry at Jungle Beat for trying to reboot the franchise, angry at Mario vs Donkey Kong for making DK the bad guy and regressing him to his original role, angry at the GBA ports for being "inferior" versions of the SNES versions and minor things like adding dialogue to DKC2's true ending, and angry at the PAON games for not being platformers (The return of Dixie & Co to the DK Family and King K. Rool as the main villain was seen as a step in the right direction tho). It wasn't a pleasant age to be a DK fan. Looking back tho, at least we were getting games on a consistent schedule and DK characters like Dixie were getting spotlight in more Mario spin offs (When those were allowed to be inspired and creative).

Retro getting their hands on DK was both a blessing and curse, a blessing because we got two amazing games with stellar gameplay and level design that got the fandom together after many left.
A curse.... because Nintendo got the message that DK Spin Offs don't sell and DK platformers sell gangbusters, so they won't try with DK in other types of game anymore, also they now consider DKC Returns the standard "New Super Mario Bros." of the franchise and everything related to DK had to come from there, as you see in the Theme Park plans or the recent Mario Kart track. No more K. Rool, Dixie, Funky, or any other element that wasn't present in that game was not allowed to exist in promotional material or Mario Spin Offs.

And with Tropical Freeze it was the drama "of not being Metroid", Metroid got its golden age while DK was having its worst, so it's no surprising that Metroid was getting more hype back then. But that was a childish and selfish rant, people that were not DK fans that don't understand the implications of bringing Dixie and David Wise back. And since TF did not sell the ludicrous amount Returns did because it was on Wii U, Tanabe having a conflict with Retro so they won't make another DK game and so on. And Nintendo not wanting to try with more spin offs (I'm glad that the Rabbids DLC exists, even if Diddy and Dixie are absent), we are now in this current drought of nothing.
If you pay attention, most people that appreciate DK as a great franchise and want it to be as big as it was back then are probably us, who grew up with it and know how great it could be. It's not going to be that way with the newer generations that don't care about its existence, because it's never been relevant to them anyway, and Nintendo's treatment doesn't help the matters either.

At least things have been starting to change with the announcement of K. Rool in Smash (Thanks to massive fan demand) and Dixie and Funky in Mario Kart Tour (MK8D DLC pls) but not mainline game in the sight will just keep DK in that spot where the same fandom remains static unless people start to move on or something new releases that capts people's interest again. If a new game with playable Dixie comes out (Even more so if it's 3D, because that might get DK64 only fans to know Dixie is important) we might get support to at least rival Bandana Dee's. It's only an "if" tho.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Much like various other IP's, the history of Donkey Kong shows the price of wasted opportunities. The last two decades could have been so much more; the former suffering from a lack of really evolving the mainline games (either of the DKC or 3D variety) and the latter from any attempts to build upon the momentum that was there from either Returns or Tropical Freeze. While DK has escaped being placed into hibernation (like F-Zero) or excess experimentation that stunted its potential longevity (like Star Fox), its lack of greater prominence is rooted in NIntendo never seemingly realizing its true value.

Splatoon became popular and it was taken advantage of. Fire Emblem gained fans in the West and that growth was recognized. Fan campaigns brought Xenoblade to North America and now its a franchise. Donkey Kong in that sense seems to be a blind spot.
 

Ridley_Prime

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It's unfortunate Metroid and DKC couldn't just continue peacefully coexisting like this.

I kinda get it though as a superfan of both, as both series later came on the rise when the other fell; Metroid in the 2000's after the Rare buyout, DKC after the divisive Other M silenced Metroid into a hiatus (there was also the hiatus during the 64, but it was more of an outlier). They were never meant to be particular competitors or anything, but fans kinda made it that way over the whole Retro thing.

Retro itself had also been poorly managed though. With their abysmal release schedule, cancelled games/concepts, and always changing staff, is no wonder they couldn't work on more than one game simultaneiously, or we would've continued getting both DK and Metroid for them, ideally. I would've seen Retro as the next Rare if that had been the case, especially if they also had been able to do some other cool games to keep up their momentum, like Rare who was more consistent up till the buyout. Nintendo of Japan say-so or lack thereof also probably a factor with where Retro's lacking, but still, with better management, there wouldn't of needed to be a Metroid and DK fan debacle.

If Prime 4 somehow underperforms (whether due to poor marketing, timing, etc), I'll be fine if they just pull the plug on Metroid at that point; at least we got Ridley and things in Smash. DK still getting all the attention with the theme park along with the amount of Kong exposure in Mario Kart Tour tells me his series is still destined for greatness. Whatever DK's next main game is, Retro's loss for not doing it.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Metroid simply suffered from not being big in Japan and thus not as big a priority to Nintendo as a result. Given the complete renaissance of the Metroidvania in the last decade there's really no excuse for having only one 2D title come out in the last 15 years and having it be a (to be fair well made) remake to boot. And it can't really be a case of not wanting to hurt the brand with unnecessary titles given the disaster Other M was and the complete non-event Federation Force turned out to be.

Honestly both franchises are in dire need of fresh blood via new studios and the right timing when it comes to their spotlight. Samus Returns was a great game; a release a year before on 3DS or year after on Switch would have done it a world of good.
 

Ridley_Prime

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With the tone deaf mistiming of Federation Force, you can probably forget about another Metroid spinoff attempt ever happening. Didn't like FF's execution enough as to bother getting personally, but still, it's unfortunate.

They're probably not gonna bother with DK spinoffs anymore either for the reasons previously mentioned, so another thing the two franchises have in common.
 

ChunkySlugger72

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View attachment 288929

It's unfortunate Metroid and DKC couldn't just continue peacefully coexisting like this.

I kinda get it though as a superfan of both, as both series later came on the rise when the other fell; Metroid in the 2000's after the Rare buyout, DKC after the divisive Other M silenced Metroid into a hiatus (there was also the hiatus during the 64, but it was more of an outlier). They were never meant to be particular competitors or anything, but fans kinda made it that way over the whole Retro thing.

Retro itself had also been poorly managed though. With their abysmal release schedule, cancelled games/concepts, and always changing staff, is no wonder they couldn't work on more than one game simultaneiously, or we would've continued getting both DK and Metroid for them, ideally. I would've seen Retro as the next Rare if that had been the case, especially if they also had been able to do some other cool games to keep up their momentum, like Rare who was more consistent up till the buyout. Nintendo of Japan say-so or lack thereof also probably a factor with where Retro's lacking, but still, with better management, there wouldn't of needed to be a Metroid and DK fan debacle.

If Prime 4 somehow underperforms (whether due to poor marketing, timing, etc), I'll be fine if they just pull the plug on Metroid at that point; at least we got Ridley and things in Smash. DK still getting all the attention with the theme park along with the amount of Kong exposure in Mario Kart Tour tells me his series is still destined for greatness. Whatever DK's next main game is, Retro's loss for not doing it.
Though I'm a bigger fan of Donkey Kong, I'm still very much looking forward to Metroid Prime 4.

I own Metroid Prime Trilogy on Wii, But I have only played the 1st 2 games, Have yet to play "Corruption", Kind of holding out until they "Supposedly" remaster the trilogy for Switch to play all 3 games in time for 4.

I always thought Metroid was cool, But didn't get into it until I was older as Mario, Pokemon and Donkey Kong carried my interest through my childhood, If I had to rate Metroid it would probably rate it as my 4th favorite Nintendo franchise after the 3 I mentioned, But still ahead of Star Fox and Kirby which I am still a fan of, But they have mainly played it safe and never really took that next big step forward for both franchises.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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I saw the last few posts on the previous page and I want to add on to those points made along with adding my own and I had this suspicion for at least nearly a decade and I think it's time to come to terms with it.

Ask yourselves why Dixie Kong isn't popular? Or moreso, why Donkey Kong isn't as popular with the general populace the way Zelda, Fire Emblem or any other Japanese-originated series (Donkey Kong Country originates from a western source, as well as Donkey Kong today, barring all Arcade-based elements and even then DKC has them as well). Now, I just gave you part of the answer but I'll clarify on that later. Donkey Kong and Mario are sibling series with DK being the oldest and Mario or Super Mario being the younger sibling. Now add DKC into the mix and you have two series that broke from Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Country and Super Mario. Donkey Kong and Mario are connected by the arcade game and overall with the Mario spin-off titles, and that's probably where some of the DK neglect comes in.

Remember when Sakurai mentioned that Wario was considered but scrapped because he didn't want too many Mario characters in the game? While Wario is a Mario character in origin, he also has two series of his own, Wario Land and WarioWare, the latter non-existent if not in development at the time, effectively making him his own character. But consider that Sakurai still sees him as a Mario character and consider that Wario only represents WarioWare, not Wario Land (Look how long it took to get a proper replication of his iconic shoulder bash, keyword proper). The same likely applies for Donkey Kong, hence why Dixie was absent from Smash 4 and especially Ultimate where you'd think she'd be able to come in if Sakurai was unaware of Tropical Freeze during Smash 4, but alas.

Is DKC seen as a Mario spin-off? Personally, I say yes. It's definitely far from Mario and has evolved and grown into a very recognizable IP that always breaks at least one million per title, ports included. Compare Donkey Kong Country to Mario vs. Donkey Kong, with each subsequent title selling less to where the later games were digital-only. You would think Mario vs. Donkey Kong could be a nice mishmash of DKC and Super Mario elements rather than an underwhelming arcade retread and later on Lemmings clone. But back to the original point, I think Sakurai saw and still sees Donkey Kong as a Mario sub-series and only now realizes that Donkey Kong is more than just that, hence the overwhelmingly positive response to King K. Rool. You also notice that the same people who were detracting from K. Rool prior to are now saying he was important and played a major role in some of the best selling games of all time? Fickle little curs.

The same people likely had Dixie Kong and Cranky as the next DK reps or worse, only Cranky or even none at all. Now that K. Rool is in, Donkey Kong is now perfectly repped and anything else is seen as being greedy. Fire Emblem can get all its clones and reps and people defend it. The mere mention of Dixie Kong gets people seething like a rabid dog and the notion that she only can be a Diddy echo with DK's recovery shows they don't play DKC or even know the character at all or care. And they don't care about Dixie Kong. I mentioned DKC being western in origin and this also may play a factor in DKC's subdued status. Mario in Smash may as well be a stylized shonen protagonist instead of the happy-go-lucky mascot he is in his own games. Donkey Kong characters have never had the 'cool' element that most Japanese characters in games have, or even the 'relatable' or 'blank-slate' elements that a lot of said characters have too. Donkey Kong is more of a classic style, relying on the merits alone and substance vs. the stylish flair that most Japanese-originated characters have predominately. Think Mickey Mouse vs. Sonic, Donkey Kong being Mickey and Sonic...well being Sonic. The irony that the west playing a role in making a character who was designed with a cool flair even cooler. Mario isn't cool in general, but in Smash those characters get that tinge of coolness to him, Mario especially. Only now is Mario smiling via taunt.

No one can deny that Donkey Kong Country is a very good series, and there's no debate in that area. But it lacks a 'cool' element that Final Fantasy, Sonic, Zelda and many other Japanese-originated series have. I'm glad that it lacks cool elements, personally if the seedier undersides of some fandoms are to go by. But it also means Donkey Kong is in a niche area despite having mainstream appeal and recognition. It doesn't help that DK doesn't have a dedicated studio to continue its success, hence the slump it was in during the 6th generation. An honorable mention to Paon for at least making a few DK titles with some respect to the Rare-related material and the same with Camelot taking an interest in wanting to make a DK64 sequel years back. The interest was there, but it was never followed up on like it should have been. Being in the Mario games more than there have been DK games also hurt the position Donkey Kong's characters are in and it makes people think of them as Mario characters in the grand scheme of things. Dixie is just another Mario character and a Diddy clone to these people and ultimately she's not important enough to be in the game, especially when the Bowser reject got in.

The 3rd party argument is also worth an essay, but I'm already morose as is with Dixie Kong's situation in Smash.
The number 1 reason DKC isn't as popular anymore is because Nintendo just didn't do any big with the IP for years after Rare left. In the 2000s it was in spin off hell and DKCR was rthe first mainline DKC game in 11 years when it came out. DKC can rise to the top again if Nintendo finds a proper studio to come and pump out DKC games like Rare use to in the 90s.
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Donkey Kong WAS almost more popular than Mario during the 1994-2000 time period. DK64 was being hyped to be a system seller, and it was hyped as much as Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time were back in the day. Then the buyout happened.

Granted, many of the current popularity problems of the DK franchise today spawn off the wasted 2000s decade. Old people that were fans of the original Arcade DK started to get on influential positions and lambasted the Rare games like they wanted to do it in the 94-98 time for being a different DK not appealing to them, aided by the narrative of the bought of Rare.
Young people that grew up then only knew DK because of his appearance on Mario Spin Offs, and maybe the GBA ports and think of DK and Diddy as Mario characters and DKC as that sub-franchise that only "exists".
And you have the passionate DK fans angry at Jungle Beat for trying to reboot the franchise, angry at Mario vs Donkey Kong for making DK the bad guy and regressing him to his original role, angry at the GBA ports for being "inferior" versions of the SNES versions and minor things like adding dialogue to DKC2's true ending, and angry at the PAON games for not being platformers (The return of Dixie & Co to the DK Family and King K. Rool as the main villain was seen as a step in the right direction tho). It wasn't a pleasant age to be a DK fan. Looking back tho, at least we were getting games on a consistent schedule and DK characters like Dixie were getting spotlight in more Mario spin offs (When those were allowed to be inspired and creative).

Retro getting their hands on DK was both a blessing and curse, a blessing because we got two amazing games with stellar gameplay and level design that got the fandom together after many left.
A curse.... because Nintendo got the message that DK Spin Offs don't sell and DK platformers sell gangbusters, so they won't try with DK in other types of game anymore, also they now consider DKC Returns the standard "New Super Mario Bros." of the franchise and everything related to DK had to come from there, as you see in the Theme Park plans or the recent Mario Kart track. No more K. Rool, Dixie, Funky, or any other element that wasn't present in that game was not allowed to exist in promotional material or Mario Spin Offs.

And with Tropical Freeze it was the drama "of not being Metroid", Metroid got its golden age while DK was having its worst, so it's no surprising that Metroid was getting more hype back then. But that was a childish and selfish rant, people that were not DK fans that don't understand the implications of bringing Dixie and David Wise back. And since TF did not sell the ludicrous amount Returns did because it was on Wii U, Tanabe having a conflict with Retro so they won't make another DK game and so on. And Nintendo not wanting to try with more spin offs (I'm glad that the Rabbids DLC exists, even if Diddy and Dixie are absent), we are now in this current drought of nothing.
If you pay attention, most people that appreciate DK as a great franchise and want it to be as big as it was back then are probably us, who grew up with it and know how great it could be. It's not going to be that way with the newer generations that don't care about its existence, because it's never been relevant to them anyway, and Nintendo's treatment doesn't help the matters either.

At least things have been starting to change with the announcement of K. Rool in Smash (Thanks to massive fan demand) and Dixie and Funky in Mario Kart Tour (MK8D DLC pls) but not mainline game in the sight will just keep DK in that spot where the same fandom remains static unless people start to move on or something new releases that capts people's interest again. If a new game with playable Dixie comes out (Even more so if it's 3D, because that might get DK64 only fans to know Dixie is important) we might get support to at least rival Bandana Dee's. It's only an "if" tho.
The Geek Critique said it best:
"Aside from a Small Niche of Fans that grew up with the Super Nintendo, the DKC series never had the respect and reverence among gamers that other Nintendo franchises like Zelda and Metroid enjoy"

There's no gaming franchise that is dispespected as much as Donkey Kong. There are others that get insulted or laughed at, but at least they are recognized as franchises, as IPs, not as random spin off games of that one Mario character.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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The Geek Critique said it best:
"Aside from a Small Niche of Fans that grew up with the Super Nintendo, the DKC series never had the respect and reverence among gamers that other Nintendo franchises like Zelda and Metroid enjoy"

There's no gaming franchise that is dispespected as much as Donkey Kong. There are others that get insulted or laughed at, but at least they are recognized as franchises, as IPs, not as random spin off games of that one Mario character.
It's sad because DKC is a franchise that deserves full respect and the sad truth is, Super Mario is a spin off of DK.
 
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