The Knightmare Returns! Meta Knight Discussion Thread

[teddystalin]

A bunch more footage got uploaded to smashbrosspain:

It's hard to watch this demo footage... It's like watching noviceSmash 4 MKs and then it turns into Playstation All-Stars as soon as the meter is charged. Can't wait until the game is out so we can lab the proper followups/confirms and see what kind of utility tilts out of run and fair are going to have.

 

[MERPIS]

is it just me or does it seem like dash attack doesn't combo into uair any more

 

[Sol0ke]

It still does at the usual low percents, but the higher kbg pretty much kills any followups at high percents.

 

[kirbstr]

is it just me or does it seem like dash attack doesn't combo into uair any more

Dash Attack seems like a combo extender instead of starter now it seems. I've seen a few videos now where people will try to horizontal ladder/D-throw -> Fair and use dash attack to extend into more Uairs, a nair, or even regrab/tilts/smash attacks on plats.

 

[MERPIS]

Dash Attack seems like a combo extender instead of starter now it seems. I've seen a few videos now where people will try to horizontal ladder/D-throw -> Fair and use dash attack to extend into more Uairs, a nair, or even regrab/tilts/smash attacks on plats.

Wait does that confirm fair as a legit combo option now

 

[kirbstr]

Wait does that confirm fair as a legit combo option now

The angle it sends at is much lower now so it's better for horizontal combos on the ground. It sends too far for any use in the air past 30% it seems though, aside from gimping.

 

[Sol0ke]

Dash attack can still combo at low percents, however due to the higher KBG (knock back growth), he lost any confirms such as dash attack -> up b. At low percents, you can still follow up with an up air or up smash, for example.

 

[Rehnquist]

Meta Knights d-tilt animation doesn't match its hit box, watch the first two hit but the third one (after he rolls miss)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdMbZtJYxq8#t=1m56s

 

[kirbstr]

Meta Knights d-tilt animation doesn't match its hit box, watch the first two hit but the third one (after he rolls miss)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdMbZtJYxq8#t=1m56s

Dang that sucks otherwise it might've been a really good neutral tool. Hopefully it gets fixed in a patch.

 

[Sol0ke]

I would take another look at it. It's most likely a z-axis thing as the dtilt literally hits Marth before he rolled.

 

[awesomeknight]

his ladder combo no longer kills, because shuttle loop knockback got nerfed.

 

[MERPIS]

his ladder combo no longer kills, because shuttle loop knockback got nerfed.

pretty sure everyone knows that by now

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I remember dropping in 4 due to the improbability of solo maining him, and the fact that he relied so much on the ladder combo. From what I heard, he isn't looking good this time around. Has anything been shown to prove that false? It seems a lot of characters that I like in their main games aren't doing too well here, like:

 

[MERPIS]

I remember dropping in 4 due to the improbability of solo maining him, and the fact that he relied so much on the ladder combo. From what I heard, he isn't looking good this time around. Has anything been shown to prove that false? It seems a lot of characters that I like in their main games aren't doing too well here, like:

Ye we might have gone overboard in terms of how good he really is..

 

[Sol0ke]

MK was solo viable in 4 (in fact the PGR MK mains pretty much solo main him) and in Ultimate, he may have lost ladder kills but he gets more range, better damage output, and lag reduction in order to have better normals and a more varied neutral.

I'm very sure he'll be at least decent, even high tier.

 

[MERPIS]

MK was solo viable in 4 (in fact the PGR MK mains pretty much solo main him) and in Ultimate, he may have lost ladder kills but he gets more range, better damage output, and lag reduction in order to have better normals and a more varied neutral.

I'm very sure he'll be at least decent, even high tier.

Oh definitely in fact I'd say he's much better than he was in smash 4, I'm just saying we might have blown things out of proportion a little bit in regard to his buffs

 

[Sol0ke]

I see, I do agree it’s a little ridiculous to be calling him top 10 or whatever is considered top tier in this game. We don’t know how well the other characters will stack up in this game barring maybe a few outliers.

We just have to wait for the game to be released and see how the meta develops.

 

[MERPIS]

I see, I do agree it’s a little ridiculous to be calling him top 10 or whatever is considered top tier in this game. We don’t know how well the other characters will stack up in this game barring maybe a few outliers.

We just have to wait for the game to be released and see how the meta develops.

A tier was 5 characters in 64, 6 characters in melee, 7 in brawl, and 12 in smash 4, in ultimate I feel its gonna be around 14 to 16 characters. We have a huge ass roster this time around, so MK could, COULD be at the very end of that.

Way off topic here, but is it crazy of be to think that pichu could be top 10 in this game?

 

[kirbstr]

A tier was 5 characters in 64, 6 characters in melee, 7 in brawl, and 12 in smash 4, in ultimate I feel its gonna be around 14 to 16 characters. We have a huge *** roster this time around, so MK could, COULD be at the very end of that.

Way off topic here, but is it crazy of be to think that pichu could be top 10 in this game?

Ehh, I feel like people are blowing him out of proportion. Pikachu is already small and light and his hitboxes are pretty decent for his size, but Pichu is even smaller and lighter and his limbs just aren't as long as Pika. This will automatically make him way worse than Pikachu because it means that his neutral will be much worse than Pika's and he will even have a hard time getting in unless he is way faster than Pika (which he isn't). Unless he has some crazy punish game or broken move, his weight combined with lack of range and dealing damage to himself will probably make him bad no matter how good Pikachu is in this game.

EDIT: on another note I think a lot of top players are really sleeping on Meta Knight right now due to him not having ladder anymore and also him not being drastically changed from sm4sh. He is still consistently making it into "seems pretty good" tier in a lot of people's tier lists but the main thing I think will push him really hard once the game comes out is his "meta niche". He will have an undeniably good matchup against anyone who has a bad recovery or is slow/bad/floaty in the air and I think this will be HUGE for him. Smash 4's engine sucked for a character like Meta Knight who thrived on having a good recovery and being able to gimp people, the only reason he was high tier was ladder combo. Smash Ultimate is way better for Meta Knight as a character due to lack of air dodge spam and worse recoveries. Some of his worst matchups from sm4sh like cloud and mario are now probably much better for him. If Characters like Marth, Roy, Fox, Belmonts, Mario, Cloud, and Ike all end up being as good as people are saying they are, you can bet that Meta Knight will crawl up the ranks as a counter to these character's mediocre off stage games/linear recoveries. Keep in mind his most buffed arial was Dair which is also by far his best for gimping.

 

[Gemba Board]

Ehh, I feel like people are blowing him out of proportion. Pikachu is already small and light and his hitboxes are pretty decent for his size, but Pichu is even smaller and lighter and his limbs just aren't as long as Pika. This will automatically make him way worse than Pikachu because it means that his neutral will be much worse than Pika's and he will even have a hard time getting in unless he is way faster than Pika (which he isn't). Unless he has some crazy punish game or broken move, his weight combined with lack of range and dealing damage to himself will probably make him bad no matter how good Pikachu is in this game.

EDIT: on another note I think a lot of top players are really sleeping on Meta Knight right now due to him not having ladder anymore and also him not being drastically changed from sm4sh. He is still consistently making it into "seems pretty good" tier in a lot of people's tier lists but the main thing I think will push him really hard once the game comes out is his "meta niche". He will have an undeniably good matchup against anyone who has a bad recovery or is slow/bad/floaty in the air and I think this will be HUGE for him. Smash 4's engine sucked for a character like Meta Knight who thrived on having a good recovery and being able to gimp people, the only reason he was high tier was ladder combo. Smash Ultimate is way better for Meta Knight as a character due to lack of air dodge spam and worse recoveries. Some of his worst matchups from sm4sh like cloud and mario are now probably much better for him. If Characters like Marth, Roy, Fox, Belmonts, Mario, Cloud, and Ike all end up being as good as people are saying they are, you can bet that Meta Knight will crawl up the ranks as a counter to these character's mediocre off stage games/linear recoveries. Keep in mind his most buffed arial was Dair which is also by far his best for gimping.

You make very solid points here. MK dair, nair, bair offstage will be crucial to this character's role. Recovery is overall nerfed in this game for all characters, so any character with solid recoveries are buffed by default. MK especially.

 

[HyperL]

New video:

https://youtu.be/7rAS7ZN3nVE

In all the MK footage available MK seems have trouble killing. Then again it's not easy to use MK optimally.

Also, does anyone know what's the use for the Tornado now? It does one hit around 12,6% damage and seems to travel a bit farther in a single tap. Is there anything new about the move that I missed?

 

[Rehnquist]

New video:

https://youtu.be/7rAS7ZN3nVE

In all the MK footage available MK seems have trouble killing. Then again it's not easy to use MK optimally.

Also, does anyone know what's the use for the Tornado now? It does one hit around 12,6% damage and seems to travel a bit farther in a single tap. Is there anything new about the move that I missed?

I recall either a dev or something along that line stating that all meta knights specials are recoveries. Outside of that other things to look for is, if it can kill at a decent percent, priority and range for recovering, if it is a good OoS option, if it is a combo breaker, where does it autocancel, etc.

 

[Gemba Board]

New video:

https://youtu.be/7rAS7ZN3nVE

In all the MK footage available MK seems have trouble killing. Then again it's not easy to use MK optimally.

Also, does anyone know what's the use for the Tornado now? It does one hit around 12,6% damage and seems to travel a bit farther in a single tap. Is there anything new about the move that I missed?

I love the airspeed of nado. MK himself doesn't have all that great of a time moving horizontally in the air. I feel like he will be able to catch airdodge-away with nado in situations where landing and dashing to punish isn't an option.

 

[MERPIS]

You know, looking at the landing lag buffs, MK's landing lag is very similar to marth's now. His fair is just as safe like marth's is but due to being multihit it might be even better, and MK actually has comparable range to marth now. In my opinion MK could definitely place higher than marth on later tier lists due to these properties. He has the same things as marth but he has so much more but only trades a little bit of range, and dancing blade. But he gains so much more.

Also apparently Nairo knows things we don't since he's placing MK super high.
MK's landing lag:
Nair: 8 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Dair: 10 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: No idea

Marth's landing lag
Nair: 7 frames
Fair: 10 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Uair: 8 frames

The landing lag is pretty much the same except for dair

 

[Mr Gentleman]

I think Meta Knight is gonna be a sleeper pick early on for ultimate. nobody is paying much attention to him. but the universal changes to the system do a lot for him. it will also be good to be a sleeper early on because that way he can avoid the incoming early game nerfs

 

[MERPIS]

I think Meta Knight is gonna be a sleeper pick early on for ultimate. nobody is paying much attention to him. but the universal changes to the system do a lot for him. it will also be good to be a sleeper early on because that way he can avoid the incoming early game nerfs

He usually is a sleeper pick, he was like that in smash 4 as well.
He's definitely gonna have some ridiculous garbage when some one actually takes the time to lab him out though, and that's probably gonna be a super long and intricate combo game involving fair or nair. I feel like he's gonna be this game's version of brawl olimar or brawl diddy, the character that's only mid or bottom of high tier because people don't use him and most of his placement is theory, and then some one comes out of nowhere, shows off the character's potential, people find out he's stupid broken, and suddenly he's top 5 or 10. MK in this game has all the tools he needs to be top 10 but if he actually is, no one knows yet.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

You know, seeing this, it makes me really excited for what MK might be able to do, think SHFF f-air chains

Apparently Aba thinks MK is the best character in ultimate?

 

[HyperL]

Still works bois, just gotta be more committal.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stage is in Battlefield form btw so the blastzone is the same as Battlefield's.

 

[MERPIS]

Still works bois, just gotta be more committal.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stage is in Battlefield form btw so the blastzone is the same as Battlefield's.

So basically MK is just as stupid as he was in smash 4 but he now has brawl hitboxes and range, with a much better neutral and disadvantage state due to his marth tier hitboxes and landing lag, which also makes his ridiculously safe and also makes his combo game also ridiculous.

This is a recipe for disaster, and we’re about to make some cullinary fudgery

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I'm not a good Metaknight player or anything (couldn't ladder on smash4), but am willing to help stuff from him in the game if you guys wish!

 

[MERPIS]

I'm not a good Metaknight player or anything (couldn't ladder on smash4), but am willing to help stuff from him in the game if you guys wish!

YEES
Alrighty here's the main question, is the new forward and neutral airs, better for combos in any way than the last ones? For ref, fair could barely combo before and nair was so impractical for combos it wasn't funny. With the new buffs I've theorized that fair can now combo into itself for chains, or potentially other moves, and nair can also combo into other aerials. Could you test this?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

YEES
Alrighty here's the main question, is the new forward and neutral airs, better for combos in any way than the last ones? For ref, fair could barely combo before and nair was so impractical for combos it wasn't funny. With the new buffs I've theorized that fair can now combo into itself for chains, or potentially other moves, and nair can also combo into other aerials. Could you test this?

Fair is... really bad. The lag after it is so enormous you can't do anything after it in the air. The landing lag is very small, however, so you can do FF Fair into Fair at low percents. You can still do the gimmick where you only land the first 2 hits and it keeps the opponent down. Landing only first hit of Fair sends enemy up quite close, this is the best combo potential of this move. You can do any aerial after FF 1 hit Fair.
Bair behaves very similar to Fair but it seems better for comboing because of the speed/hitlag makes it easier to FF and cancel the later hits. 1 Hit Bair comboes into 2hit Bair which can combo into smash attacks. Managed to get all that to true combo with Upsmash at the end at 50%~.

Nair is somewhat better against grounded opponents since it sends at a low trajectory that causes knockdown nearby. Comboes into dash grab at really low %s. Neither of them really seem like amazing combo moves because of the horizontal knockback and MKs pathetic horizontal airspeed. It also has a pretty rough aerial lag.

Upair will remain the go-to move for air combos. The others have too much end lag.

 

[MERPIS]

Fair is... really bad. The lag after it is so enormous you can't do anything after it in the air. The landing lag is very small, however, so you can do FF Fair into Fair at low percents. You can still do the gimmick where you only land the first 2 hits and it keeps the opponent down. Landing only first hit of Fair sends enemy up quite close, this is the best combo potential of this move. You can do any aerial after FF 1 hit Fair.
Bair behaves very similar to Fair but it seems better for comboing because of the speed/hitlag makes it easier to FF and cancel the later hits. 1 Hit Bair comboes into 2hit Bair which can combo into smash attacks. Managed to get all that to true combo with Upsmash at the end at 50%~.

Nair is somewhat better against grounded opponents since it sends at a low trajectory that causes knockdown nearby. Comboes into dash grab at really low %s. Neither of them really seem like amazing combo moves because of the horizontal knockback and MKs pathetic horizontal airspeed. It also has a pretty rough aerial lag.

Upair will remain the go-to move for air combos. The others have too much end lag.

Ye I figured fair would be better if it was SHFF'd, it's not really meant to do anything in the air in terms of aerial to aerial combos, its more or less meant to be a marth fair. Can you get FF fair into up air at any percents?
A few more things, if you can test this, how safe is FF fair and SHFF fair on shield if spaced well, and does dsmash have actually good kill power this time around?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Ye I figured fair would be better if it was SHFF'd, it's not really meant to do anything in the air in terms of aerial to aerial combos, its more or less meant to be a marth fair. Can you get FF fair into up air at any percents?
A few more things, if you can test this, how safe is FF fair and SHFF fair on shield if spaced well, and does dsmash have actually good kill power this time around?

I can't test shield stuff right now since I'm all alone.
Single hit SHFF Fair can lead into Upair but it's tight and only at low %, the hitbox barely reaches horizontally. It mostly leads into another Fair at most %s.

Dsmash still doesn't kill until 130% when standing right next to the ledge. 150-160%+ in most scenarios.
Sorry the buffs aren't looking that hot so far.

EDIT: Second Hit of D-smash is a lot stronger and should KO at around 140% from even the center of the stage.

 

[Demon-oni]

So basically MK is just as stupid as he was in smash 4 but he now has brawl hitboxes and range, with a much better neutral and disadvantage state due to his marth tier hitboxes and landing lag, which also makes his ridiculously safe and also makes his combo game also ridiculous.

This is a recipe for disaster, and we’re about to make some cullinary fudgery

Do we know if the player was di'ing correctly in that ladder clip? That almost looks like pre ladder nerf sm4sh MK in terms of the uair knockback angle. Even if he did use all jumps to get the kill confirm, the angle was arguably the more important part of making ladders work.

 

[Sol0ke]

That was not the pre nerf angle. If it was, Rags wouldn’t have to go so far offstage to finish it.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

That was not the pre nerf angle. If it was, Rags wouldn’t have to go so far offstage to finish it.

Probably needed to go that far since upB knockback is really low.

 

[HyperL]

Probably needed to go that far since upB knockback is really low.

Yep, like I said, you need to be more committal. I think that's a smart change, now the move will be more hype whenever someone pulls it off..

Also ZeRo dished out a new video on MK:

 

[MERPIS]

That was not the pre nerf angle. If it was, Rags wouldn’t have to go so far offstage to finish it.

He caught him right at the ledge mind you

There was a problem fetching the tweet

OH LAWD HE COMIN

 

[kirbstr]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

OH LAWD HE COMIN

It's actually over lol.

Japan thinks he's broken, Abadango thinks he's the best character in the game, Rags thinks he needs to be nerfed, Zero think he's insane.

Not to mention no one has even reached the tip of the ice-burg in terms of his edge-guard and juggle potential.

All this without fully optimized combos.

pleasedontbenerfedpleasedontbenerfed

 

[Chibi-Chan]

It's actually over lol.

Japan thinks he's broken, Abadango thinks he's the best character in the game, Rags thinks he needs to be nerfed, Zero think he's insane.

Not to mention no one has even reached the tip of the ice-burg in terms of his edge-guard and juggle potential.

All this without fully optimized combos.

pleasedontbenerfedpleasedontbenerfed

I haven't watched Zero video yet, but what does MK have besides Uair gimmicks? During my tests I was not impressed with his other aerials AT ALL.