The Knightmare Returns! Meta Knight Discussion Thread

Velvet Rebirth

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#1

The mysterious swordsman Meta Knight made his infamous debut to the Smash series as a playable character in Brawl. Meta Knight being one of the most prominent, iconic, and popular characters in the Kirby series, I'd say he's a guarantee for the next game! But that doesn't mean there's nothing to talk about. Though I don't dabble in competitive Smash much myself, you don't need to to know that Meta Knight was BUSTED in Brawl, being the main of just about every top Brawl player. They changed him quite a bit in Smash 4, and to my understanding a couple of players secondaried him for all his good matchups, but ultimately his raw data simply wasn't good enough to make him one's main. So, how do you think they could change him in this new game?



Meta Knight is quite a recognizable character among Smash fans simply for how good he is in Brawl, and for a Meta Knight fan such as myself, I can't help but feel disappointed that he seems to have been almost completely overlooked in Smash 4. I certainly don't want to return to a busted Meta Knight, but I think it'd be cool if he had some presence again, no idea how they'd do that though! Thanks for reading and let me know what you think!
 
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PF9

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#2
Eric Stuart doesn't get any love from the dubbers of the Pokemon anime nowadays. So how about the next best thing - make him the English voice actor for MK in SSB Switch, accent and all? He would be reprising his role from the Kirby anime dub.
 

Keeshu

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#3
I've been kind of hoping for some character reworks when Smash 5 comes around. There's 3 moves I could see being changed if they wanted to make Meta Knight use some of his more iconic moves from his games.

1. Down Thrust - The one where he's airborne, but decides to point the sword downwards and fall. I was astonished that this wasn't his down air when I first saw Meta Knight in Smash. Not sure why we have the little arcing swipe bellow Meta Knight. Afterall, there's plenty of other characters that have a down aerial similar to how Meta Knight's down thrust works like Toon Link, Greninja (minus bouncing), Sheik,Zero Suit Samus. Would be nice to have this as a move to quickly descend to the ground, unless it had some massive end lag (if that was the case, shouldn't be longer than when the Links do with their down air into the ground).

2. Sword Beam Projectile - What it looks like depends on the game, but the function between games is very similar. An arcing wall of energy being shot towards an enemy (Cloud has a very similar projectile. Cloud's projectile actually looks a lot like the Meta Knight Projectile in Superstar). Would be a nice way for Meta Knight to add some pressure to foes at a distance.

3. Charged Up Tornado Tower - The iconic move where he charges up his sword and slams it into the ground and that creates a tornado cause reasons. I'd have to replay the difference games, but in at least superstar, depending on how long he charges it, it'll go farther (in superstar that's either right next to the edge of the screen so you have to run to the edge, or he charges it for a long time to go all the way to the edge so you can't avoid it so you have to run behind him to avoid it since you have more time). I really doubt seeing this move in smash, but if it did I could imagine long startup and end lag with a tornado that probably wouldn't be as impressive as from the games (because that tornado can be quite devastating in the games). Question is, what would the tornado do? Just some simple damage? Nullify projectiles? Huge wind box? or maybe a KO move?

Of course, one of these moves would replace another. Would the down swipe from Meta Knight be missed much if down thrust took it's place? I suppose it would depend on the frame data of his Nair and Down Thrust. The sword beam projectile and tornado tower could be nice specials, but what specials would they replace, and would it be a good idea to replace the current specials with them? I mean I really do love the dimensional cape attack a lot(even if I don't use it in every single match) and it shows off his cape. Was surprised to see the dimensional cape as an attack because he never does that in his games, figured they'd just leave it as a victory animation (the taunt makes sense though even if I didn't think of that right away before brawl). The Drill rush does look pretty cool, but should Meta Knight really have that many recoveries? Of course they could just make it so the drill rush is his side b in the air, and tornado tower on the ground. I really doubt the Mach Tornado will leave because it's so iconic, even if the move is really unimpressive in Smash 4.

Would putting these iconic moves in be a good idea? Or do you think it would just mess his balance up too bad in Smash?


In case someone was curious about which games these attacks were in:
He does the down thrust in these games. Kirby's Adventure, Kirby Superstar, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Kirby Star Allies. He also uses the sword beam attack and Charged up wind attack in all of them since Superstar (which was his second 2D fighting appearance). Also Amazing Mirror and Triple Deluxe if you count Dark Meta Knight. Also Robobot if Mecha Knight counts, he does do the downward sword stab and does a sword beam too, but I can't recall of the top of my head if mecha knight does the charged up tornado attack. I don't really count Mass attack but he does do sword beams in that too (and since he and kirby are always flying, he doesn't seem to do the down thrust ever in it).
Also there's the playable appearances. Kirby's Adventure remake (Nightmare in Dreamland) gets the down thrust. Then he's basically a clone of the sword ability with a few minor changes in Superstar Ultra, Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Robobot. So Down thrust and sword beam at full health in those. Not sure if those really count because it kinda just seems like a fast lazy way to make extra content (but hey, as long as I get to play Meta Knight I'm happy I guess).
 

IAmMetaKnight

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#4
Has anybody else taken a look at those hitboxes yet?? Just from what I could see in his trailer, I was thinking they look almost as big as they did back in Brawl. I'm honestly excited, but I know most will be terrified.
 

Sol0ke

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#5
I wouldn't fear too much. I don't think they'll can MK garbage, and I'm positive they're going to give him a mix of buffs and nerfs. It won't be like Cloud or Bayo where they were straight up handed big nerfs (at least for Cloud anyway).
 

Keeshu

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#6
I think it's just an optical illusion. I basically replicated the moves on the stages in smash 4 and they were all the same. Except for forward tilt 3 which seems to be placed farther away from meta knight in Smash 5 but just barely. In smash 4 it goes through his foot, smash 5 it's a little farther away and the size of the attack looks the same.
 

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#7
I also noted the flurry. At first I thought it might generate hitboxes behind him as well as in front of him like in Brawl, but after closer observation, I think that was just my mind playing tricks on me. Only time will tell, I suppose.
 

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#9
Would you be fine if Meta Knight was exactly the same as he was in Smash 4? (cause it's looking that way) Or would you prefer that there are some changes to Meta Knight?
I think Smash 4 Meta Knight is fine. We'll obviously need some speed buffs to accommodate the change in the game speed. However, in my own personal opinion, I'd really like to see a few buffs to special moves. They have some decent utility, especially in that all of them can be used in a recovery scenario. But they need some changes if they're to see more use in the meta.

Mach Tornado is ok, but I think it should either have the end lag removed, or get some serious hitbox/knockback buffs to balance out the severe end lag. I've seen it used to devastating effect in Sm4sh, but I still think it should be a little better than it is.

I think Drill Rush either needs reduced startup or reduced end lag. It's just too risky in most situations to be useful.

Shuttle Loop is fine. If they get that Uair pumping out like last time, it definitely won't need buffs. Dimension Cape is also fine.

Other than specials, I'd say tilts need a little more reach/priority. They aren't really great defensively, which is part of why Meta Knight was so neutral-impaired. He did ok I guess, but some of the matchups felt WAY too unfair. And either make that flurry SUPER darn good, or just give him a normal gosh-darn neutral attack. Then I'd feel at least partially safe in the neutral.
 

Keeshu

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#10
I do think Mach Tornado should be buffed a little bit as well. Doesn't have to be quite as crazy as brawl of course, but a little better would be nice. It still has it's niche, but it's so niche that I don't use it unless I'm fighting certain specific characters.

As for Drill Rush, I feel like the reward isn't good enough for the risk you take with that move. It still has it's uses though. Mostly situational recovery though. I'd be fine with it getting changed or replaced to be honest.

Shuttle Loop is fine. Maybe just make the second hit after hitting the first hit a bit more reliable since you'll probably be dead if the second hit doesn't go off and it bothers me whenever I see it happen to a Meta Knight player.

Dimensional cape is fine. Though there is a little bit of overlap with it's usage in smash 5 since in Smash 5 we have directional air dodges that seem to go a similar distance. I wonder if they'll change it slightly because of this. Still useful though since dimensional cape is slower to start up and can decide to attack out of it.

I'd love to see Meta Knight have a more interesting neutral, but it is hard to know how that could work out basing it off of his Smash 4 version. I think if he just didn't do his flip in his flurry if he doesn't hit someone that'd be good. If he only did the flip when letting go after hitting someone that would make the move more useful imo. That flip's endlag is so long.
 

Krysco

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#11
I don't see discussion on this
First off, his eyes disappear during his up taunt. I suppose that's how Meta Knight would blink? Just kinda odd since he's never done it in Brawl or Sm4sh to my recollection. I don't even know if his eyes close while he's asleep in those games.

Second off, they have a bit where he dash attacks Kirby then does an up air and then Shuttle Loop but...the uair missed and they still left it in.

Lastly
His Galacta Knight outfit now has the proper mask and a pink sword. He might even get angel wings with it!
 

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#12
I don't see discussion on this
First off, his eyes disappear during his up taunt. I suppose that's how Meta Knight would blink? Just kinda odd since he's never done it in Brawl or Sm4sh to my recollection. I don't even know if his eyes close while he's asleep in those games.

Second off, they have a bit where he dash attacks Kirby then does an up air and then Shuttle Loop but...the uair missed and they still left it in.

Lastly
His Galacta Knight outfit now has the proper mask and a pink sword. He might even get angel wings with it!
That's exactly what we were discussing, actually. :laugh:

I had taken note about uair. It looks to be WAY faster. Could that be more the game speed itself, or perhaps it's more of a buff?? Either way, I think the bread and butter will make a glorious return. The hitboxes on all the moves looked a little bigger to me, especially on f-tilt, but idk.
 

NoFall

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#13
The animations of the attacks seem to have changed, which could mean his range got reworked. Could be interesting for us, as it could bring a mix between Brawl / Smash 4 Meta Knight. I love S4 Meta Knight but I feel like he could be very interesting if they lower his combo game, but buff his neutral game.

From what we can see in the short character video is that Dash Attack is still a good combo starter, but Dthrow BKB got increased which could mean no followups of off it. Can't say that for sure though, since universal hitsun had been increased overall, so we'll see.

He's my main character in Smash 4. I'll definitely try him first, and I'm hopeful he can be a good character in SSBU.

Here's his render by the way. It looks awesome !


Stock Icon !
 
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Keeshu

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#14
If it's not intentional, then it's probably just unfinished taunt. If it is intentional (which it probably is since they probably wouldn't show it otherwise), then it's probably a nod to his first appearance in Kirby's Adventure. Since you only see the darkness in his mask and not his eyes until the mask comes off. As for him sleeping in smash 4. https://youtu.be/iNK_qFGsWqw?t=4m

He still has his eyes open, not even dimmed like the anime. Maybe they'll dim or be gone in smash 5 when he sleeps.

As for the up air, dash attack, and down throw. It'll be hard to tell how useful these are since we don't know the % of the opponents. How would you feel if the up air after dash attack/down throw was less guaranteed, but they made the up air combo more guaranteed once you start it to make up for it?
 

Keeshu

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#16
Grab pummel seems much faster.
I didn't even notice that. It's literally 3 times faster. It'll probably do 1% per hit instead of the normal 3% to balance it out unless they want his pummel to be better in general. This'll probably make you feel like you are wailing on the opponent more as opposed to slowly poking your opponent's eyes out. I think I like the change.
 

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#17
How would you feel if the up air after dash attack/down throw was less guaranteed, but they made the up air combo more guaranteed once you start it to make up for it?
I would actually be ok with this. Uair still works as a bread and butter even if it's a little harder to initiate. There are actually a lot of times in my experience playing MK where Uair to KO combo was initiated without the need for dthrow/dashkick. Sometimes all that was necessary was catching the opponent from underneath platform at the right angle with a Uair and the continuing from there. I've even read an airdodge and caught an opponent midair with Uair and proceeded to kill. I know plenty of other characters with good air games can do that easier than MK, but it's still possible with him and can (could) kill at lower percentages than most others. Of course, I doubt his air combo game will EVER be as good as the Umbra Witch's. :4bayonetta:
 
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NoFall

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#18
It'll be hard to tell how useful these are since we don't know the % of the opponents.
You've got a point there, but considering how low Shuttle Loop sent Kirby in this clip, I think we can safely assume that the Kirby was at low %s.

How would you feel if the up air after dash attack/down throw was less guaranteed, but they made the up air combo more guaranteed once you start it to make up for it?
I'm fine with it, as long as we have a nice and reliable kill confirm like in Smash 4 (whether it comes from dash attack/dthrow or something else).

Also, it seems like Dthrow has a longer animation.
 
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Krysco

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#19
Dthrow may have taken longer in that clip due to it being on Skyworld. The floor has a hurtbox and produces hitlag upon being hit and the kicking hitboxes of dthrow kept hitting it. Would be a shame if the duration of it was increased since it's a combo throw (unless that's been changed) and it was already risky enough to use in doubles matches. Can't even guarantee a longer duration would mean more damage since they could just make the kicks do less damage compared to Sm4sh.
 

MERPIS

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#24
Ya buddy definitely has brawl range now.
I'm scared...Especially with the reduction to landing lag I'm guessing he's gonna get because everyone else is getting it.
 
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#28
Haha, fair. Jokes aside, I'm curious on the differences between Smash 4 and Ultimate. Having reduced landing lag is a huge boon for Meta Knight and something that he needs for his attack and bait playstyle. Dash dancing will be an interesting concept as we never have been able to utilize Meta Knight with that tech before. Same can be same for most other characters that were introduced in Brawl / Smash 4, but the look and feel/ playstyle might have new adaptions with the new tech around.
 

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#29
Haha, fair. Jokes aside, I'm curious on the differences between Smash 4 and Ultimate. Having reduced landing lag is a huge boon for Meta Knight and something that he needs for his attack and bait playstyle. Dash dancing will be an interesting concept as we never have been able to utilize Meta Knight with that tech before. Same can be same for most other characters that were introduced in Brawl / Smash 4, but the look and feel/ playstyle might have new adaptions with the new tech around.
dtilt out of a dash will be super good. Also,
AUTOCANCEL FORWARD AIR.
AUTOCANCEL FORWARD AIR.
AUTOCANCEL FORWARD AIR.
AUTOCANCEL FORWARD AIR.
Also meteor dair please
 
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#30
Man....MK's D-tilt out of a dash is great for poking and spacing. F-Air spam is going to be great!!!! The defensive + aggressive playstyle of his will really shine. Going to be hard to get around it.

Also if his Dair ends up being a meteor things are going to get WILD.
 

MERPIS

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#31
Man....MK's D-tilt out of a dash is great for poking and spacing. F-Air spam is going to be great!!!! The defensive + aggressive playstyle of his will really shine. Going to be hard to get around it.

Also if his Dair ends up being a meteor things are going to get WILD.
With the range enhancement that he got as well as the same dair change happening to pikachu, this is not only looking likely, but if it does happen then suddenly we have the best edgeguarder in the game on our hands, assuming it still comes out on frame 4, which knowing meta knight, it will.
 

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#32
whoa, they made the galacta alt really cool View attachment 148849
RIP Galacta Knight Echo Fighter.


For your viewing pleasure...
The up air
MMmmmmm... sweet nectar to mine eyes.

With the range enhancement that he got as well as the same dair change happening to pikachu, this is not only looking likely, but if it does happen then suddenly we have the best edgeguarder in the game on our hands, assuming it still comes out on frame 4, which knowing meta knight, it will.
If they give him him a meteor, his already ridiculous offstage presence would be WAY too good. I'm glad to see all his buffs, but that's maybe a step too far. :crazy::laugh:
 

MERPIS

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#33
RIP Galacta Knight Echo Fighter.



MMmmmmm... sweet nectar to mine eyes.



If they give him him a meteor, his already ridiculous offstage presence would be WAY too good. I'm glad to see all his buffs, but that's maybe a step too far. :crazy::laugh:
Naw screw that they have to in order to make up for what disgusting crap they gave to pikachu
LOOK AT THIS MONSTROSITY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x43cHhYz2H0
1:59
 

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#34
Naw screw that they have to in order to make up for what disgusting crap they gave to pikachu
LOOK AT THIS MONSTROSITY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x43cHhYz2H0
1:59


In all seriousness though, MK's offstage presence has always been better than Pikas. While Pika Dair spike is the most absurd buff I've ever witnessed, I still think Dair spike for MK would be that much more ridiculous. Especially considering how good he's looking to be this time.
 

MERPIS

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#35


In all seriousness though, MK's offstage presence has always been better than Pikas. While Pika Dair spike is the most absurd buff I've ever witnessed, I still think Dair spike for MK would be that much more ridiculous. Especially considering how good he's looking to be this time.
frame 4 spike that kills at 70? Yes please
 

NoFall

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#36
In all seriousness though, MK's offstage presence has always been better than Pikas. While Pika Dair spike is the most absurd buff I've ever witnessed, I still think Dair spike for MK would be that much more ridiculous. Especially considering how good he's looking to be this time.
Hmm I'm not quite sure about that. While MK's edgeguarding game is really good, I think Pika's edgeguarding game is better due to its large amount of tools, such as thunder (that spikes and kills early) and thunderjolt (which is a super good projectile to gimp recoveries like Diddy's), combine that with his crazy long Bair that is super hard to tech and his early Fair gimp setup, and you have the best edge-guarding character in the game, point blank.
Also, MK's Dair is already good, it sends at a semi-spike angle, so I think the spike addition wouldn't really matter.
 
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IAmMetaKnight

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#37
Hmm I'm not quite sure about that. While MK's edgeguarding game is really good, I think Pika's edgeguarding game is better due to its large amount of tools, such as thunder (that spikes and kills early) and thunderjolt (which is a super good projectile to gimp recoveries like Diddy's), combine that with his crazy long Bair that is super hard to tech and his early Fair gimp setup, and you have the best edge-guarding character in the game, point blank.
Also, MK's Dair is already good, it sends at a semi-spike angle, so I think the spike addition wouldn't really matter.
Having multihit Bair that nearly guaruntees a stage spike at decent percent if done right coupled with a monstrously good recovery sells me on MK being ever slightly better than Pika offstage. Although I think you have a point there with the semi-spike.
 

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#38
Having multihit Bair that nearly guaruntees a stage spike at decent percent if done right coupled with a monstrously good recovery sells me on MK being ever slightly better than Pika offstage. Although I think you have a point there with the semi-spike.
It being a semispike makes it utterly terrible against characters with good horizontal recoveries, if it spiked it would send the opponent the only place they hate, down. It would basically be a faster varient of marths down air
 

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#39
It being a semispike makes it utterly terrible against characters with good horizontal recoveries, if it spiked it would send the opponent the only place they hate, down. It would basically be a faster varient of marths down air
Don't get me wrong; Meteor Dair would be the coolest thing ever for MK. I would abuse that power for some of the most flashy kills in my resume. But it's hardly necessary. He still has plenty of ways to gimp opponents trying to get back from the left/right offscreen, even ones with great horizontal air movement. Fair or Bair can catch opponents pretty decently. They're multihit, so it's pretty easy. Except for maybe against moves like Flare Blitz, but I can't see it being too easy to hit an opponent out of that move with a Dair, either, so it honestly doesn't make a big difference. Not to mention he can pretty much keep chasing the opponent towards the blastzone without having to worry too much about overextending, considering his amazing recovery. So I think he still does well against characters with good longitudinal-travel moves. Spiking always makes for the most satisfying kills, but it's not really necessary with MK IMO. It wouldn't make too big a difference at the higher skill-levels.
 

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#40
Don't get me wrong; Meteor Dair would be the coolest thing ever for MK. I would abuse that power for some of the most flashy kills in my resume. But it's hardly necessary. He still has plenty of ways to gimp opponents trying to get back from the left/right offscreen, even ones with great horizontal air movement. Fair or Bair can catch opponents pretty decently. They're multihit, so it's pretty easy. Except for maybe against moves like Flare Blitz, but I can't see it being too easy to hit an opponent out of that move with a Dair, either, so it honestly doesn't make a big difference. Not to mention he can pretty much keep chasing the opponent towards the blastzone without having to worry too much about overextending, considering his amazing recovery. So I think he still does well against characters with good longitudinal-travel moves. Spiking always makes for the most satisfying kills, but it's not really necessary with MK IMO. It wouldn't make too big a difference at the higher skill-levels.
You're highly underestimating the power of dair's speed. Meta Knight can utterly demolish characters that he forces to recover low, since with the speed of his dair he can meteor opponents over and over until their up b can't bring them to the ledge, and since uair to dair is a thing, this makes that situation a whole lot more possible and stupid, also it would cover the ledge way too well since meta knights dair hits below the ledge from a buffered short hop
 
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