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The Knightmare Returns! Meta Knight Discussion Thread

IAmMetaKnight

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You're highly underestimating the power of dair's speed. Meta Knight can utterly demolish characters that he forces to recover low, since with the speed of his dair he can meteor opponents over and over until their up b can't bring them to the ledge, and since uair to dair is a thing, this makes that situation a whole lot more possible and stupid, also it would cover the ledge way too well since meta knights dair hits below the ledge from a buffered short hop
I suppose it would help when a fast-paced edgeguarding scenario arises. I'd have to actually experiment with a Dair meteor to see the full practicality behind its use in Meta's edguarding. But for now, I concede in the argument of whether it would benefit him.

As to whether or not he'll get one, only time will tell.
 

MERPIS

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Your wish of having a down air Meteor is granted. However, it is Meta Knight's Down Thrust from the games
NEVER IN MY LIFE HAVE I BEEN SO DAMN MAD
Seriously, SCREW STALL AND FALL DAIRS, they're a waste of time and its just a copy and paste of the same old ****e move over and over with slight variations between characters.
 

IAmMetaKnight

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Suppose this. Your wish of having a down air Meteor is granted. However, it is Meta Knight's Down Thrust from the games. Would you be okay with this? Why/why not?
I feel Meta Knight already has any useful tools that a falling Dair would provide. D-Cape already gives him a move to return to the ground when he's hit upward, and it's a lot less predictable than a dropping Dair. His current Dair provides a lot of great followups. I personally think it's fine without a spike, but I certainly won't complain if it gets a meteor. I'd say current Dair any day.
 
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Keeshu

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I could really go either way. His current down air is what he already has in the smash series. The down thrust would be iconic because of the Kirby Series. The two moves would be used for completely different reasons. Apples to oranges. I lean slightly towards the iconic side because I like smash because of the characters and it's always strange to see them do a thing not in their game when they easily could have used something from their game to represent the character better.

Also as for the stall + Fall. I think if Meta Knight got it, he wouldn't stall, he'd just go straight down. The only time he stalled with his down thrust was his first appearance in Kirby's Adventure. Superstar and beyond he just falls straight down. With that said, I can understand why you'd be angry about the stall and fall because a few other characters have it. Though Meta Knight did it long before anyone else did it, particularly because they all do that because that's what they wanted them to do for smash and doesn't really represent them in their own games. Sheik, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, Corrin, Greninja. (Toon Link and Ridley also have stall and fall, but at least their characters actually do it in their games). So I pretty much blame Sakurai for giving everyone except meta knight the "stall and fall", even though he gave Meta Knight the down thrust in all the games. I mean it must have been really important to the balance of the character for him to do that.
 

MERPIS

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I could really go either way. His current down air is what he already has in the smash series. The down thrust would be iconic because of the Kirby Series. The two moves would be used for completely different reasons. Apples to oranges. I lean slightly towards the iconic side because I like smash because of the characters and it's always strange to see them do a thing not in their game when they easily could have used something from their game to represent the character better.

Also as for the stall + Fall. I think if Meta Knight got it, he wouldn't stall, he'd just go straight down. The only time he stalled with his down thrust was his first appearance in Kirby's Adventure. Superstar and beyond he just falls straight down. With that said, I can understand why you'd be angry about the stall and fall because a few other characters have it. Though Meta Knight did it long before anyone else did it, particularly because they all do that because that's what they wanted them to do for smash and doesn't really represent them in their own games. Sheik, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, Corrin, Greninja. (Toon Link and Ridley also have stall and fall, but at least their characters actually do it in their games). So I pretty much blame Sakurai for giving everyone except meta knight the "stall and fall", even though he gave Meta Knight the down thrust in all the games. I mean it must have been really important to the balance of the character for him to do that.
The only good ones are greninja corrin and sonic and even then they're highly situational and garbage
 

New_Dumal

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While you're expecting a spike Dair I just want the move to be active for more frames.
Smash4 Dair has hitbox in a single frame so it makes the move kind of hard to hit and less useful than it should be if the duration was better.

Now it's time to get crazy.
Fox Side B don't let him in free fall anymore, since Smash4.
Now L.Mac side B, Sheik's Side B and Zelda Side B don't let them in freefall anymore.
I want so much that DRILL RUSH don't let him in freefall anymore.
Even more into a game where airdodge sucks. Imagine all the flashy possibilities :happysheep:
 

Keeshu

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If Meta Knight's Side B didn't put him in freefall, I'd use that move a lot more. To be honest, it probably would be a bit too good, particularly for offstage pressure.
 

Meatbag

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Mk side b being canceable means it loses all those style points for drilling your enemy into the blastzone
 

IAmMetaKnight

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Mk side b being canceable means it loses all those style points for drilling your enemy into the blastzone
lol let's just make all his moves super risky, then. That way we can all feel way cooler for winning a match as him. :rotfl:
 

Sol0ke

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If MK's specials didn't put him into freefall, he'd be bonkers cause his recovery is already really good, for example the ability to drill rush -> jump -> up b just sounds too crazy lol. Little Mac's, Sheik's, and Zelda's side specials I can understand the buff because either the moves never helped assist in recovery (Zelda/Sheik) or the recovery was terrible in the first place (Little Mac). I guess for Fox they thought he needed better recovery to keep up though I didn't think it was necessary.
 
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Meatbag

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I heard edgeguards were way easier in ultimate, I'm assuming all those buffs might be because of that. So MK getting something like that wouldn't be surprising.
 

Meatbag

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that alone is a buff to MK since his recovery is still stupid
Ans considering sheik out of all characters lost her invincibility during the initial part of up b, recoveries might be way easier to deal with overall
 

kirbstr

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If there is anything I hope they change for Metaknight in Ultimate it's that he has faster air-speed/mobility and fall speed. Metaknight in smash 4 doesn't really feel like MetaKnight in Kirby games and I feel like it's mainly because his movement feels very restricted and floaty. Metaknightmare in KSSU and Planet Robobot is one of my favorite modes in video games period and I feel like it's mainly because of how powerful and mobile you feel as Metaknight. The power can be toned down in smash as they naturally want to balance the game out, but the mobility being restricted makes him feel out of place compared to the other Kirby characters who all feel a lot like how they do in the games.

I also do hope that they improved his range somewhat as that is a way for him to feel more powerful without actually making his moves any stronger.
 

Keeshu

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Meta Knight being able to punish off-stage players because Airdodging will be harder will definitely make things better. I don't see that effecting the matchup between me and some Pikachu Main I play against much, probably would help Pikachu slightly more to be honest. However for the majority of the rest of the cast, Meta Knight is going to have a significantly easier time KOing just because of his offstage game.


If there is anything I hope they change for Metaknight in Ultimate it's that he has faster air-speed/mobility and fall speed. Metaknight in smash 4 doesn't really feel like MetaKnight in Kirby games and I feel like it's mainly because his movement feels very restricted and floaty. Metaknightmare in KSSU and Planet Robobot is one of my favorite modes in video games period and I feel like it's mainly because of how powerful and mobile you feel as Metaknight. The power can be toned down in smash as they naturally want to balance the game out, but the mobility being restricted makes him feel out of place compared to the other Kirby characters who all feel a lot like how they do in the games.

I also do hope that they improved his range somewhat as that is a way for him to feel more powerful without actually making his moves any stronger.
I'd be fine with sacrificing a bit of power in order for him to be a little faster. Then again, He might just feel that fast in this game because some characters are getting faster. I'm just really afraid he might be slower in comparison to other characters because I heard that Little Mac and Sheik were slower in comparison to what they used to be in comparison to other characters in smash 4.

I would love it if they gave him a smidge more range. I loved brawl's range, but I don't know if that range was too much, been a while since I've used brawl meta knight. Could go half-way between those two ranges though and I'd be happy.
 

kirbstr

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Meta Knight being able to punish off-stage players because Airdodging will be harder will definitely make things better. I don't see that effecting the matchup between me and some Pikachu Main I play against much, probably would help Pikachu slightly more to be honest. However for the majority of the rest of the cast, Meta Knight is going to have a significantly easier time KOing just because of his offstage game.



I'd be fine with sacrificing a bit of power in order for him to be a little faster. Then again, He might just feel that fast in this game because some characters are getting faster. I'm just really afraid he might be slower in comparison to other characters because I heard that Little Mac and Sheik were slower in comparison to what they used to be in comparison to other characters in smash 4.

I would love it if they gave him a smidge more range. I loved brawl's range, but I don't know if that range was too much, been a while since I've used brawl meta knight. Could go half-way between those two ranges though and I'd be happy.
I specifically want him to have more fluid air-mobility though. He may stay the same ground speed, but I really want him to be fast in the air like he is in the games. Also, brawl range was pretty ridiculous, but at least he felt like Meta Knight. Maybe a little less than Brawl would be good.
 

New_Dumal

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Mk's Fair must receive a landing lag and hitbox change. It would not be that absurd because... Marth will probably makes a better wall Fairing anyway.

For me his Dair has a good hitbox,the duration could be buffed to 2-6 frames. Brawl's Dair was too stong because of the range. Mk used to run into enemies and safely jump with Dair,this should not happen at all. Dair is not a horizontal barring.

Uair must give a bit more percent,and smash 4 Bair is already perfect.
 

Keeshu

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Mk's Fair must receive a landing lag and hitbox change. It would not be that absurd because... Marth will probably makes a better wall Fairing anyway.

For me his Dair has a good hitbox,the duration could be buffed to 2-6 frames. Brawl's Dair was too stong because of the range. Mk used to run into enemies and safely jump with Dair,this should not happen at all. Dair is not a horizontal barring.

Uair must give a bit more percent,and smash 4 Bair is already perfect.
I don't think it'll need more landing lag because everyone across the board has very little landing lag after doing aerials now... Including the heaviest of characters. You can probably expect almost no landing lag with all of Meta Knight's aerials now.
 

Meatbag

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The problem with trying to buff his airspeed is that among the other multijumpers its the 2nd best one. Meaning they'd have to rebalance a whole lotta other attributes around it too, and I don't think its possible to increase the active frames of dair without making the animation jank or an entirely different looking move. If its anything greater than 3 frames
 
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kirbstr

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The problem with trying to buff his airspeed is that among the other multijumpers its the 2nd best one. Meaning they'd have to rebalance a whole lotta other attributes around it too, and I don't think its possible to increase the active frames of dair without making the animation jank or an entirely different looking move. If its anything greater than 3 frames
His airspeed can still be better than at least Robin and Bowser though. It would also give him better diverse horizontal combos in place of his linear latter combos. Also most other multijumpers aren’t as fast as Metaknight, and there is an odd miscorilation between how fast he is on the ground compared to the air given that he is supposed to be a more arial based character.

They could also just add in momentum conservation but that’s an unfortunate unlikely circumstance.
 

Iridium

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Would you guys prefer a different playstyle for :ultmetaknight:? As in, would you guys prefer a different combo game that did not rely on ladders? I would not expect it, for his best combos are in the air, but it will not stop be from trying him out, as he is my favorite Kirby character to play.
 

kirbstr

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Would you guys prefer a different playstyle for :ultmetaknight:? As in, would you guys prefer a different combo game that did not rely on ladders? I would not expect it, for his best combos are in the air, but it will not stop be from trying him out, as he is my favorite Kirby character to play.
I really hope so. His playstyle in Sm4sh was really boring and a lot of his tools were very sub par. I only didn’t drop him because I love him so much.
 

Keeshu

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Ladder combo was pretty fun in Smash 4....but maybe it's because I'm still too bad at performing it that I haven't gotten tired of it yet. I'd love to see some change to Meta Knight. but yeah... :4metaknight:Meta Knight can feel quite boring sometimes. I never played :metaknight: Brawl Meta Knight competitively, but I really loved using his glide and tornado because they were 2 more movement options that Meta Knight could use and I really loved them for it. I highly doubt we will ever get those back though.

I would be all up for Meta Knight's gameplay being changed around a bit. As long as he's still cool (sounds, effects on his sword from Brawl were so awesome. Smash 4's are pretty weak imo), and is fast, it'll be hard for me to dislike playing him. With that said, I'm expecting him to play incredibly close to Smash 4 Meta Knight. Except I expect the up air combo to get nerfed even harder to the point where it can't be used so Meta Knight players have to be a bit more creative with their KOs.
 

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I want MK to be sheik with a sword, give him an amazing combo game and a great aerial set, but keep his kill power
In other words, keep his stuff, but make dair combo into his grounded stuff, like dash attack, make fair auto can out of a short hop, and maybe make it so that nair can also combo into his grounded garbage, HOWEVER, nerf his ridiculous ladder combo, since with fair auto canning, you'd be able to chain it into itself or potentially other stupid garbage for even better damage
 

Krysco

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I dropped MK because of the ladder. I enjoyed most of his tools but then I saw his meta was delving to just early percent ladder KOs till it got nerfed. Had already moved on to another character by the name he got nerfed so I personally hope the ladder isn't as ridiculous as launch Sm4sh's was if it stays. Still used MK casually after dropping him though.
 

Iridium

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I dropped MK because of the ladder. I enjoyed most of his tools but then I saw his meta was delving to just early percent ladder KOs till it got nerfed. Had already moved on to another character by the name he got nerfed so I personally hope the ladder isn't as ridiculous as launch Sm4sh's was if it stays. Still used MK casually after dropping him though.
Well, from his trailer, it looks like the second hit of Shuttle Loop sends the opponent nowhere, so that might mean he might have to look for other options to finish off the opponent with.
 

Krysco

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Well, from his trailer, it looks like the second hit of Shuttle Loop sends the opponent nowhere, so that might mean he might have to look for other options to finish off the opponent with.
Could've always been at low percent. I assume you mean the clip with MK and Kirby on Skyworld where he misses the uair?
 

Iridium

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Could've always been at low percent. I assume you mean the clip with MK and Kirby on Skyworld where he misses the uair?
Yeah. Right after the up-air, he went for Shuttle Loop, and the second hit did not launch Kirby. Could be low base knockback on it, with perhaps high knockback growth, or low percent, but he was not playable so I cannot confirm this.
 
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Keeshu

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I want MK to be sheik with a sword, give him an amazing combo game and a great aerial set, but keep his kill power
In other words, keep his stuff, but make dair combo into his grounded stuff, like dash attack, make fair auto can out of a short hop, and maybe make it so that nair can also combo into his grounded garbage, HOWEVER, nerf his ridiculous ladder combo, since with fair auto canning, you'd be able to chain it into itself or potentially other stupid garbage for even better damage
I like the idea of :4metaknight:MK being more like :4sheik:Sheik with a sword..... but I could be a bit biased since I picked up Sheik recently. Apparently she was just too annoying to me to get into (too be fair, Meta Knight was too... Just I love Meta Knight too much, so I forced myself to get used to him). So once I got good with Meta Knight, Sheik became much easier to understand and she's very fun to play now. After playing her, really makes me wish Meta Knight had his Sword Beam attack as a projectile.

I'm really divided on whether or not I want the ladder combo to be good. I'm a little tired so I can't think of how many characters can do a ladder combo (especially one that KOs) outside of the obvious :4zss:Zero Suit Samus (it's practically the first thing that comes to mind when I think of her). So him having a ladder combo does make him a bit more unique, and it would make sense that it is a KO option since he's clearly an character that performs well in the air. Question is, what % should that combo work at? On one hand, being low % does give the opponent to always fear him, even if they make it harder to start that combo. On the other hand, It's rather OP, and probably should be nerfed, after all, that's just one of the many reasons why some people hate :4bayonetta:Bayonetta.

I'm also not sure if I'd be fine with trading his ladder combo with making other combos easier. I suppose it depends on how much you can mix up his choices to attack.


I dropped MK because of the ladder. I enjoyed most of his tools but then I saw his meta was delving to just early percent ladder KOs till it got nerfed. Had already moved on to another character by the name he got nerfed so I personally hope the ladder isn't as ridiculous as launch Sm4sh's was if it stays. Still used MK casually after dropping him though.
Any particular reason why you dislike his ladder combo enough to drop him? Would you pick him up again if the ladder wasn't crazy?
 

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Any particular reason why you dislike his ladder combo enough to drop him? Would you pick him up again if the ladder wasn't crazy?
It made a number of his other moves irrelevant. In a game about hitting your opponent past the blastzone, why go for anything that isn't the early ladder combo? It was the fastest and scariest way to do it. People had to respect it and basically camp the edge. It's similar to ICies, Brawl Dedede and Sm4sh Bowser and DK where their grab rewards were so ridiculously good that it's what you always see them go for. I like characters who make use of most or all of their moves so once I saw MK's meta straying away from that, I dropped him.

As I said, I did pick him up casually after the nerf and part of me regrets dropping him since I could've been better with him if I just stuck with him through the crazy ladder period and the nerfs. Doesn't matter too much now since I'm comfortable maining Falco in Sm4sh and Ultimate is coming out soon.
 

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It made a number of his other moves irrelevant. In a game about hitting your opponent past the blastzone, why go for anything that isn't the early ladder combo? It was the fastest and scariest way to do it. People had to respect it and basically camp the edge. It's similar to ICies, Brawl Dedede and Sm4sh Bowser and DK where their grab rewards were so ridiculously good that it's what you always see them go for. I like characters who make use of most or all of their moves so once I saw MK's meta straying away from that, I dropped him.
This is half true. MK mains abused ladder but they also found ways to use other moves in his kit. Its just that ladder was explored most there wasn't much else to do with his kit. MK mains who solely depended on ladder like aba were weeded out
 

BigBrotherBlade

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im suprised you guys missed this during the direct. Meta knight Down smash and back air. His down smash looks better, his back air is the same as smash 4. Although the hit boxs ended before the sword in smash 4. If they matched the hit box's with the animation then he definitely got a range buff. He's up air is the same too.

 

Keeshu

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I decided to compare your pictures to meta knight in Smash 4 (thank gosh for 1/4 hold speed in training). Seems the first attack of back air is identical to smash 4. However the 3rd hit covers more area that is lower and a smidge more range.Edit: After testing a little more, it seems that Smash 4 meta knight hits the same area as smash ultimate shows, but Smash 4 doesn't show it with it's effects. So at least it'll be a bit more apparent where the hitbox is in smash ultimate.

Sadly we can't know for sure how far the first hit of down smash goes because it's off screen. The back hit of Down Smash seems to have the same range too. But holy crap the height of down smash is so much higher now. Like the first hit goes above Meta Knight in ultimate and it looks identical to how it was in Brawl, whereas in Sm4sh it doesn't even go half way up his body ditto for the second hit as well. The second hit goes above his head which it doesn't in Brawl (which goes like 3/4 up the body) and in Sm4sh (only half way up the body). Definitely a big buff in terms of where it covers.

Nice to see Down Smash getting a buff at least. Curious to see if forward tilt will get higher range as well, because if not Down smash will be better vertically compared to the first 2 hits of forward tilt. So it seems that it will probably be his fastest option to deal with diagonal pressure when grounded, that is if the moves are the same speed as smash 4. Up smash is 8 frames, jab is 7 frames, up air and nair would be 10 frames because 6 for the up air, 4 for jumpsquat. Whereas down smash is just 5 frames. Curious to see how powerful it will be and what angle it sends them at. Might be better for follow ups or KOing in this game it seems.
 
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MERPIS

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If they decide to make the hitboxes match the animation then we might actually have one hell of a range buff, really curious of what dair looks like
 

Keeshu

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Just saw this in my recommended and figured I'd start up a little chatter in the thread. I'm a bit tired so maybe I'm missing something, but he does seem to have some good logic.

Henke's Meta Knight is garbage video

Apparently dash attack and down throw will not combo into up air anymore. He also thinks that the new knockback mechanic will make it so up airs can't connect. Personally I think the new knockback mechanic won't be that big of a deal. Of course we do know Meta Knight is getting buffs in other ways, as seen with his Down Smash at least.

What are your thoughts on this?
 

MERPIS

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Just saw this in my recommended and figured I'd start up a little chatter in the thread. I'm a bit tired so maybe I'm missing something, but he does seem to have some good logic.

Henke's Meta Knight is garbage video

Apparently dash attack and down throw will not combo into up air anymore. He also thinks that the new knockback mechanic will make it so up airs can't connect. Personally I think the new knockback mechanic won't be that big of a deal. Of course we do know Meta Knight is getting buffs in other ways, as seen with his Down Smash at least.

What are your thoughts on this?
The dthrow thing is false and has been false forever now
Dash attack just seems to have more horizontal knockback
Hitstun also seems to last even after the character stops moving so there goes his last point

It's all false info.
 
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