The King of Dreamland gets buffed! The King Dedede main discussion thread

[icecooler]

These are my thought on dedede lmk if you guys agree or if i missed anything:

Neutral much better, it could be the inhale gordo but it seems space with dedede is more respected
Inhale gordo is an insane mixup, and the fact that it pockets now makes it a much better tool
Fsmash breaks shield, usually youd have to combine it with a gordo but ive broken so many shields with only fsmash
his dash dance is much better
the 100% gordo stick is huge
at a weight of 127 istead of 119 in 4
if you drop ledge and fair or bair itll have dedede land on stage
dash attack (while still not great) is much better
honestly his crouch makes it seem like youd be taunting mid match and then catch someone with downtilt
he lost trig combos but they will always send away, but the gordo will still bouce in the respected way, making it much easier to get a double hit (i actually hit someone three times with the same gordo)

 

[Rocketjay8]

What is everyone feeling about his new Inhale? I have found it quite useful for catching people off guard with a much more direct gordo.

It alleviates the biggest weakness of heavyweights, projectiles. No need to worry about getting outclassed by K Rool.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Man what am I supposed to do against Gordo spam? They don't get knocked away nearly as easily as in Smash 3DU.

Man Dedede is back with a vengeance and against one guy last night I felt nearly helpless.

 

[ArchineerLock]

Man what am I supposed to do against Gordo spam? They don't get knocked away nearly as easily as in Smash 3DU.

Man Dedede is back with a vengeance and against one guy last night I felt nearly helpless.

I wouldn't really know since I have not played against any other D4's so far. But I would say that if you are having trouble approaching, just stop for a little bit and try and force the DeDeDe to approach you. If they get impatient they will rush you and they make open them up for you to attack. If the D3 decides to play the waiting game, you just need to rush in with high priority moves. DK's nair, marios nair, most nairs really. If you have more than one jump and high air speed that is a good option as well for approach.

As far as chains go, I have noticed that dthrown into uair is still true at low-mid percents. Anyone else found any good true chains?

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

Downthrow into fair seems to be the new combo to go for at low to medium percents. It combos on Mario up to as high as 100% and does 21,6% damage.
I find into uair to be a bit too unreliable. You don't always hit all hits from uair and deals the exact same damage if you get all 9 total hits for 21,6%.
So in short: dthrow into fair deals just as much damage in two total hits as dthrow into uair does in all 9 but it's harder to get every hit in.
I also think it's more beneficial to send the opponent forward than up on most stages.

Upthrow into uair combos Mario even well above 100%. Even with yourself at 100% upthrow into uair will still combo on a Mario that's at well above 100%. Very nice and lethal on stages with a low ceiling or even ones with a higher, assuming bad DI.

Dtilt doesn't combo into itself anymore but being able to do it out of dash allows for easy chains combined with ftilt. Might be a good mixup with grabs and allows for a more aggressive play style.
Utilt can combo into nair at low percents, uair at higher percents and you can catch people steering into you with a full hop bair.

Jet hammer is actually worth using now. It hits way harder. It's not a great move but it may get respected and feared even more now.
All in all we're much, much more flexible now. He feels more agile in every regard and the Sm4sh play style of guaranteed grab combos mixed with reactive aerials works much better, plus the tilts out of sprints being possible adds more ground pressure options with a fast dtilt, a disjointed ftilt and a scarier utilt that combos into uair at high percents to ceiling kills.

That said, I expect him to end up in the lower tiers. Everyone has gotten faster as well. But the King (the only important one) is much more fun to play. He who underestimates the hammer is in for a right clobbaring.

Up B also now grabs the ledge no matter what way you're facing. Very nice.
A silly thing you can do at 0% is to try dtilt into inhale. It's no combo but another mixup option. Sends the opponent offstage from the middle of Battlefield at just the right distance and height for a fast gordo. So if you want to style on somebody online, that may be montage material.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[Treked]

As far as chains go, I have noticed that dthrown into uair is still true at low-mid percents. Anyone else found any good true chains?

I usually go for down throw to forward air and works just fine except on really light characters like Pichu that get send above you so then I just go with up air.

Jet hammer is actually worth using now. It hits way harder. It's not a great move but it may get respected and feared even more now.

Dunno if it truly hits harder but I'm sure it breaks shields way easier and hits on ledges without being fully charged. Maybe it's the people I fight but they usually don't know how to challenge the Jet Hammer the best way to deal with it would be to just hit Dedede the fastest way possible or send a projectile but I just start charging it when I send them out stage leave a Gordo bouncing before and then try to catch them when they get up it covers jump and rolls getups easy so you just have to keep attention to how he's going to be back on the stage or also you can catch them if they wait too long and lose the invincibility on the ledge. People who have a character with a counter they're probably the easiest to hit with the Jet Hammer xD

 

[Carthage]

Overall I'm not too impressed with DDD this version.

Good:
-Still has some throw combos, such as dthrow -> nair -> land on battlefield platform -> dtilt for something like 40%
-Still has good recovery and can safely jump off the stage to hit people trying to recover
-Gordo stick being consistent is great
-Fsmash actually breaks shields now instead of always *almost* breaking them

Bad:
-The projectile "reflect" seems too slow to actually punish someone throwing a projectile, they have to be caught blindsided.
-Gordos still useless in projectile wars, if not actively harmful
-Gordos still mostly bad against any player who knows a good move to stop them
-Lacks maneuverability to get in against most of the game's projectile based characters, like the belmonts
-air to ground game is not great, nair doesn't hit that far behind him so it's hard to do crossups to avoid getting shield grabbed
-ftilt, dtilt, and I think jabs are punishable on shield so ddd is really weak to shield in general
-very sluggish aerial movement for trying to juggle people and get back on the stage
-bair lost it's arc so it's harder to hit people with it, still probably possible to hit with properly timed short up fast fall(but it's tight)
-very very hard time punishing air dodge

Most of his weaknesses are still crippling I think.

I'll be looking for a new main this game, I can't go through this again.

 

[Inking2003]

Finally was able to unlock after fighting him like 7 times, and here's what I think about him.

I know everyone is saying is the new king in town and has dethroned him, but is not to be taken lightly because of this. He has become surprisingly scary, and I have moved up from fighting level 4 CPU's to fighting level 7 CPU's with consistent two stock victories within about 15 minutes of playing him. Similar to , has an amazing recovery. With his 5 mid air jumps and his Up B, he can cover some amazing vertical and horizontal distance. His Up B can also be cancelled, unlike 's. A few of 's moves also have super armor, and unlike 's where his super armor will eventually break, leaving him open for attack, 's super armor does not. His Side B can lead to stupid combos that could only dream of, and 's Up B is still a spike, which means his memes still stay in the game. With how good he is, I can firmly say that is about to get CLOBBAH'D!!

 

[Shyningfade]

-bair lost it's arc so it's harder to hit people with it, still probably possible to hit with properly timed short up fast fall(but it's tight)

Bair never had an arc. They just changed the animation in Ultimate so that it matched its actual hitbox, which was a rectangle/oval thing.
Someone correct me if wrong, pls.

 

[ArchineerLock]

What are some ways you guys think he could still be buffed? I honestly think that if they increased his airspeed he would be at least b- tier.

 

[Inking2003]

Increase his mid air jump hight

 

[Alsyght]

Overall I'm not too impressed with DDD this version.

Good:
-Still has some throw combos, such as dthrow -> nair -> land on battlefield platform -> dtilt for something like 40%
-Still has good recovery and can safely jump off the stage to hit people trying to recover
-Gordo stick being consistent is great
-Fsmash actually breaks shields now instead of always *almost* breaking them

Bad:
-The projectile "reflect" seems too slow to actually punish someone throwing a projectile, they have to be caught blindsided.
-Gordos still useless in projectile wars, if not actively harmful
-Gordos still mostly bad against any player who knows a good move to stop them
-Lacks maneuverability to get in against most of the game's projectile based characters, like the belmonts
-air to ground game is not great, nair doesn't hit that far behind him so it's hard to do crossups to avoid getting shield grabbed
-ftilt, dtilt, and I think jabs are punishable on shield so ddd is really weak to shield in general
-very sluggish aerial movement for trying to juggle people and get back on the stage
-bair lost it's arc so it's harder to hit people with it, still probably possible to hit with properly timed short up fast fall(but it's tight)
-very very hard time punishing air dodge

Most of his weaknesses are still crippling I think.

I'll be looking for a new main this game, I can't go through this again.

Dedede wasn’t meant to be totally buffed and given a good balance to his weakness. I mean, just look at him. But, what we can say is that he’s fixed and I think that’s all we needed.

 

[Treked]

Jet Hammer has super armor when it's released that's neat.

 

[Carthage]

Dedede wasn’t meant to be totally buffed and given a good balance to his weakness. I mean, just look at him. But, what we can say is that he’s fixed and I think that’s all we needed.

But I don't think he's fixed at all.

He still has all the crippling weaknesses he had before, and only a slight improvement against zoning characters.

Try playing DDD against a reasonable simon/richter for example, where winning is almost impossible because you can barely even shield axes because they break shield in 2 axes. If you try to predict an inhale for the cross and he doesn't thow on you eat a punish too. It feels almost impossible.

K rool is the kind of thing I'd expect for DDD, he is almost the same character except he gets armor on moves and his projectiles can't be reflected and his down throw might be a near inescapable kill setup at higher percent. If k rool can have that, why is DDD stuck with a kit that is almost fully punishable on shield, no armor, no mobility, and a reflectable projectile?

 

[ArchineerLock]

But I don't think he's fixed at all.

He still has all the crippling weaknesses he had before, and only a slight improvement against zoning characters.

Try playing DDD against a reasonable simon/richter for example, where winning is almost impossible because you can barely even shield axes because they break shield in 2 axes. If you try to predict an inhale for the cross and he doesn't thow on you eat a punish too. It feels almost impossible.

K rool is the kind of thing I'd expect for DDD, he is almost the same character except he gets armor on moves and his projectiles can't be reflected and his down throw might be a near inescapable kill setup at higher percent. If k rool can have that, why is DDD stuck with a kit that is almost fully punishable on shield, no armor, no mobility, and a reflectable projectile?

It really depends on how you are playing DDD. If you are over relying on Gordos or Inhale than yea, you are gonna get destroyed. But if you learn to adjust based on your opponent and utilize DDD's neutral game well, then you can still do quite well against any a character like SImon and Richter. Will it be harder than other characters? Yea. But it is not impossible.

 

[Alsyght]

^^^Inhale and Gordo Toss are really used for trapping and limiting your opponent’s movements or as a surprise attack. You mostly should be going for reads and defensive play with the hammers.

Dedede will always be combo food like all heavies and suffer the most due to his lack of super armor. His air mobility is bad, but useful if you know how to use Bair or Nair or his tilts on the ground.

Grab, jab, and tilt a bit more and you’ll be fine.

But idk

 

[Carthage]

I've gotten quite far with gordo play, I feel they are the only reason to be DDD at all.

Why play a punishable, no mobility character otherwise? His combo damage is average, his kill potential is average, his mobility is one of the worst in the game, and his moves are almost universally punishable.

My experience with the belmont matchup is that even if you never use gordos, you are up against a zoner that also has a projectile that crushes the shield DDD relies on so heavily to get in. They just stand under a platform, huck a cross to control the ground, then axes/fire, and limits you to almost no possible moves. Every situation basically ends up heavily in the belmonts favor.

 

[Alsyght]

You know what? I wanna play someone with a Belmont. I wanna see how ****-ed this match-up really is for myself. I’m interested.

 

[ArchineerLock]

I've gotten quite far with gordo play, I feel they are the only reason to be DDD at all.

Why play a punishable, no mobility character otherwise? His combo damage is average, his kill potential is average, his mobility is one of the worst in the game, and his moves are almost universally punishable.

My experience with the belmont matchup is that even if you never use gordos, you are up against a zoner that also has a projectile that crushes the shield DDD relies on so heavily to get in. They just stand under a platform, huck a cross to control the ground, then axes/fire, and limits you to almost no possible moves. Every situation basically ends up heavily in the belmonts favor.

Regardless of how far you have gotten with gordo play, that is not DeDeDe's entire character. You dont see pro players over-relying on ZSS d-special, ROB's gyro, Peach's turnips, Pac-Man's standard-special, etcetera. Although all of those moves are a large part of those characters, they do not make or beak the character and the same goes for DDD. If you cannot get over not being able to use gordo as a crutch in every matchup, pick a different character.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

The Belmonts have some oppressive projectile game but I think that'll become more manageable once we all get better at parrying. All his projectiles are heavily telegraphed and especially axe is fairly slow. That's not to say that the matchup is easy peasy but I think one can get used to it.

And yeah, backair never had an arc to it in the first place. It's just as it used to be if we're talking hitboxes, it's just not as misleading anymore when it comes to the animation.

 

[Deity Link]

Holy **** I love the new Dedede, I started practicing him in Smash 4 for the past month while waiting for Ultimate after having been converted by a few youtubers (such as Grayfruit), and now that I've had the chance to play him in Ultimate it feels like they've removed his limiters, every single of his moves just feels better to execute, his armor on jet hammer, his inhale, I'm in love.

Anyway I got to participate in a smash tournament at my college yesterday, and out of 64 participants I made it to the top 8, beating one of the best players that was playing Simon in a very tense game that ended a second after both of use learned at the same time that Dedede can, in fact, inhale the Axe. I failed every time I had tried it before because it kept coming too high.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

Does he spit it out straight forward?

 

[Deity Link]

Can't say for sure, Simon was right in front of me when I spat it out so he immediately got hit, I was high on adrenaline as we were both on our last stock of a tournament match.

 

[Treked]

Does he spit it out straight forward?

Yes it does.

 

[dr.$]

IMO if they don't buff him (and I can't really get my hopes up since they nerfed him 3 times in the span of smash 4) I'm probably not going to main him. I can't believe they would remove 100% Gordo Stick from the demo, and the worst part is that there is data behind it... He really isn't fun to play if I'm trying to win. and OH MY GOD don't even get me started on his fthrow/bthrow!

 

[Ab9]

I miss being able to jab, jab, d tilt or sometimes jab, jab, d smash. Doesn't seem possible or not reliable. Everything else I'm really digging. Regardless of how well he may end up performing practically he is still top tier in fun!

 

[Rehnquist]

Was just play testing various characters for combos, I should mention that I didn't have anybody to test DIing, but on a 0% chrom was able to get

strong Nair > grab (a couple of pummels) > U-throw > Uair for 40%.

Tested this again in practice mode and it does say its a true combo. Everything was easy and the hardest part was getting the right hitbox of Nair while crossing to get the grab, but even then its not too hard.


Also against the same Chrom found that weak Nair into bair connects from like 60-77% with it being a kill set up on FD around 70%.

 

[Alsyght]

I miss being able to jab, jab, d tilt or sometimes jab, jab, d smash. Doesn't seem possible or not reliable. Everything else I'm really digging. Regardless of how well he may end up performing practically he is still top tier in fun!

If he lost the jab, jab into anything he’s lost a lot of combo potential right there.

 

[dreamastermind]

Has anybody else been killed by going in the opposite direction with UP B?! Maybe it's a B reversal or something, but I've never once done that in smash 4. It's happening a few times a night and ruins many good games. That and I've also died to cancelling his recovery on accident. Would it have killed them to make it a button and not a direction?!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

What is everyone feeling about his new Inhale? I have found it quite useful for catching people off guard with a much more direct gordo.

I've won games with that function by catching people by surprise.

 

[Alsyght]

^^^
Yeah, it’s really fun to use. Especially when you fight people who don’t seem to know about it and watch them freak out.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

^^^
Yeah, it’s really fun to use. Especially when you fight people who don’t seem to know about it and watch them freak out.

I use it on fighters like Mewtwo and Samus who use neutral B and then I spit it back. It's funny to see them instinctively shield and get broken.

 

[Alsyght]

I had reflected back a Samus’s green missiles who shielded it and broke it when I reflected back the full charge shot. Jet-hammered them back to hell where they belong.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I had reflected back a Samus’s green missiles who shielded it and broke it when I reflected back the full charge shot. Jet-hammered them back to hell where they belong.

Poor Samus. That must have been embarrassing.

 

[Sudz]

I use it on fighters like Mewtwo and Samus who use neutral B and then I spit it back. It's funny to see them instinctively shield and get broken.

The Mewtwos I fight know to spam neutral B when I'm throwing gordos

 

[Skamhutt]

Not sure if that's the right place here, but I didn't want to open up a new thread. Here are 2 pretty good sets of King Dedede versus Ness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3yr3JYY-QY&index=14&list=PLWfVpTsC2Z8oPMosNx5cObVuO5-CcTXur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a20-79vvN04&index=21&list=PLWfVpTsC2Z8oPMosNx5cObVuO5-CcTXur

Really nice performance of both players I think.

 

[Crosser]

So 100% Gordo stick didn't make it into the final build?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

So 100% Gordo stick didn't make it into the final build?

I think it's 100% but only if you hit it right. I could be wrong, but that seems to be the only way I get it.

 

[Crosser]

How do you hit it right? Ive been chuckin Gordos at Peaches castle all night with no luck. Not 100% anyway. Not like in the video where he does it 3 or 4 times in a row at close range.