Social The Gates of Hell: Bayonetta Social Thread

[Ghidorah14]

I mean, does down tilt > up smash work on everyone? That's pretty important. Muuuuuuuuuch more reliable than any of her "death combos".

On battlefield:
-Mario @ 80-85% - dilt to upsmash is a true combo. Doesnt kill.

-Ike @ 65-110% - dilt to upsmash is a true combo. Kills at 105%.

-Sheik @ 75- 90% - dilt to upsmash is a true combo. Kills at 85%.

 

[Lorde]

Downwards ABK>sweetspot dair onstage kills stupidly early

the only difficult thing to do is space dair correctly so you get the meteor hitbox, and that's not even that hard

 

[Sensane]

I mean, does down tilt > up smash work on everyone? That's pretty important. Muuuuuuuuuch more reliable than any of her "death combos".

Yup; and if the opponent DIs away, that doesn't matter as you can still get a true combo with d-tilt -> running u-smash. I tested it and all you'll have to worry about is how frame perfect you are.

 

[C0rvus]

Cool, that's very good then. I tend to keep things simple, so that suits me a bit better. Bayonetta has this potential to convert into death off of a DI read, or freestyle but can also convert off of a safe tool if she needs to. Smells like high tier.

 

[Nagalfar]

Got 5th at some local with my 2 days Bayo
Pretty fun character, I gotta admit, although the hard part is getting to face people who don't fall for the same memetic kill setups I've been fraudulently using. (my favorite being the hilarious "side b to wait for airdodge to smash")
I also went to the conclusion that Kirbynetta is an absolute monster. Seriously, how are you even supposed to face this thing realistcally? His bullet arts are needles on steroids.

 

[Lorde]

It's complete nitpicking, but Bayonetta's neutral b = Bullet Climax

Hold the A button after most of Bayonetta's moves = Bullet Arts

Sorry, I had to say it.

 

[Nagalfar]

His "lewdy tooty shooty bang bang", then.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It's complete nitpicking, but Bayonetta's neutral b = Bullet Climax

Hold the A button after most of Bayonetta's moves = Bullet Arts

Sorry, I had to say it.

I think it's not nitpicking at all, it's important to keep them apart properly. Will just cause confusion otherwise.

 

[Astra Waifucon]

I disagree about her frame data problems. At least in the air anyway:

Nair is frame 9
Bair is frame 11
Fair is frame 7
Uair is frame 9
ABK is frame 7
Witch Twist is frame 4

Now let's look at Zero Suit Samus:

Nair is frame 10
Bair is frame 8
Fair is frame 6
Uair is frame 6
Zair is frame 9

Those numbers are pretty similar to me. The difference is only 3 frames at most. The main comparison is nair, which is only one frame different. I don't think that's abysmal start up. I have never heard people say that that's a problem for Zero Suit. Witch Twist can behave much like an up air as well I might mention.

And let's take a look at Ryu:
Nair is frame 4
Bair is frame 8
Fair is frame 6
Uair is frame 10

Although his nair is frame 4, it certainly doesn't have the range of Bayonetta's. Her fair is 1 frame slower than his and has way more potential followups. Her bair is a little slow I agree, though frame 11 for a massive aerial like that is not abysmal. Rosalina's Bair being frame 9 and luma's being frame 10.

I don't think frame 7 for fair is that slow when we consider that Sheik's fair is frame 5. Her frame data is not her strength no, but it's not as bad as it's being given credit.

Frame 7 for a dive kick in this game is objectively lightning fast. Falcon Kick is frame 18, basically unusable. Most divekick dairs are frame 15. This thing is frame 7 AND it's safe on shield.

Now let's look at actual abysmal startup:

Shulk nair is frame 13
Shulk fair is frame 14
Shulk bair is frame 18
Shulk uair is frame 14

She's not Sheik or Mario, that does not mean she has abysmal startup on her aerials.

 

[Greda]

Hello my friends. I have been labbing and playing Bayonetta nonstop and have concluded she is in dire need of buffs. Here are some suggestions.

-Buff knockback on Bair and Uair. Bayonetta needs more ways to kill and these two attacks being buffed will fix them. For Uair, being able to kill your opponent at 60% is far too low of a percent and obscene. It needs to be buffed.

-Buff Witch Time duration. The duration of Witch Time is too short, I can only fully charge and chain two smash attacks in one counter, why not three?

-Lower ending lag on all her Wicked Weaves. The Wicked Weave isn't even part of her, realistically she should just get out immediately.

-Make all her hitboxes disjointed. She's attacking with her GUNS, it makes no sense that they wouldn't be disjointed.

-Double the damage of Bullet Arts and make it flinch opponents. Sakurai did a terrible job with matching her original game with this, and the damage of Bullet Arts is far too little. We need opponents to flinch when holding down Nair and Uair.

-Make Bullet Climax shoot three directions all at the same time. As it is, this attack is completely useless. This would help it a little.

With these buffs, we could make Bayonetta not Zelda-tier.

lol

 

[LordShade67]

Greetings, Bayo players/fans/what have you. This is probably shameless advertising and the like, but it does pertain to your character's franchise somewhat, so....yeah.

 

[DragonBall_Zack]

What should I be doing in the Neutral game with Bay? I've been playing her fairly defensively by forcing the opponent to approach with Bullet Climax and Bullet arts? Is that the right way to go or should I be more aggressive? My go to options are her neutral B, Bullet arts, tilts, Side B and N-Air and SHFF F-Air 1.

 

[shotcalla9]

Make sure you guys aren't holding up b when you perform it if you do you get more lag you have to tap it for low end lag i think this is crucial so please spread it around

 

[Big-Cat]

You've definitely got the right idea. If you play her games, you know that's how she works. I'd add in jab and maybe BA UAir.

 

[Sensane]

What should I be doing in the Neutral game with Bay? I've been playing her fairly defensively by forcing the opponent to approach with Bullet Climax and Bullet arts? Is that the right way to go or should I be more aggressive? My go to options are her neutral B, Bullet arts, tilts, Side B and N-Air and SHFF F-Air 1.

Force approaches with bullet arts from d-tilt, n-air, u-air, f-air, and b-air if on bf or dreamland. Don't use bullet climax on stage; it's not a very good idea and is better offstage.

Make sure you guys aren't holding up b when you perform it if you do you get more lag you have to tap it for low end lag i think this is crucial so please spread it around

We already know to do that lol.

 

[DragonBall_Zack]

You've definitely got the right idea. If you play her games, you know that's how she works. I'd add in jab and maybe BA UAir.

Force approaches with bullet arts from d-tilt, n-air, u-air, f-air, and b-air if on bf or dreamland. Don't use bullet climax on stage; it's not a very good idea and is better offstage.

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I have to start adding the various mix up combos she has as I've been somewhat over reliant on her ABK > ABK > Aerial combo (I also still need to get the QCF input down fully). I want to get her tournament ready haha.

 

[Spelt]

I've been seeing a pretty ridiculous amount of complaining in this thread recently IMO. Either stop playing her or figure out ways around the problems you're experiencing. If you're trying to get other's advice and experiences to help you improve that's fine, but just moaning about the problems you have with the character isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Ffamran]

It's complete nitpicking, but Bayonetta's neutral b = Bullet Climax

Hold the A button after most of Bayonetta's moves = Bullet Arts

Sorry, I had to say it.

And holding down neutral Special = Charge Bullet.

Anyway, people who've played Bayonetta enough or recently to remember, but when you activated Witch Time in her games, you were invincible during it, right? Or could you still get hit which makes sense, but you'd have to be distracted to not see an attack flying at you 5 centimeters per second. If it's the former, then I honestly think this is an oversight.

いけるやん！ pic.twitter.com/iNsK3TTmiq

— ZEZ(元:ジェファーソン) (@jefferson_kuugo) February 7, 2016

Is Witch Time too good in Smash? Perhaps. Should hitboxes end during Witch Time? I say yes only if in her games hitboxes are not active during Witch Time. If they are, then if they can code in something so that Witch Time in Smash lowers the priority of the opponent's hitboxes to as low as possible, then that would be fine too. To compensate, I don't think Bat Within should make the opponent slow down... Pretty sure in Bayonetta if you failed a Witch Time and Bat Within activated, all that happened was your enemy would be pushed back and you took no damage; http://bayonetta.wikia.com/wiki/Bat_Within. Because rolls exist in Smash... Maybe Bat Within should have windboxes instead... Imagine gimping characters like Ike and Little Mac because you just dodged. Brawl Ike Quick Draw nightmares, right?

 

[Spelt]

Pretty sure you can get hit during witch time. Though whatever's happening during falco's fair, that's not how it should work I think. And bat within pushing the opponent back would be fine as long as it's only a slight push, anything more than that would probably get pretty crazy.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Spelt

You're still as sunshine-y as ever!

Smooth Criminal

 

[MysteriousSilver]

And holding down neutral Special = Charge Bullet.

Anyway, people who've played Bayonetta enough or recently to remember, but when you activated Witch Time in her games, you were invincible during it, right? Or could you still get hit which makes sense, but you'd have to be distracted to not see an attack flying at you 5 centimeters per second. If it's the former, then I honestly think this is an oversight.

いけるやん！ pic.twitter.com/iNsK3TTmiq

— ZEZ(元:ジェファーソン) (@jefferson_kuugo) February 7, 2016

Is Witch Time too good in Smash? Perhaps. Should hitboxes end during Witch Time? I say yes only if in her games hitboxes are not active during Witch Time. If they are, then if they can code in something so that Witch Time in Smash lowers the priority of the opponent's hitboxes to as low as possible, then that would be fine too. To compensate, I don't think Bat Within should make the opponent slow down... Pretty sure in Bayonetta if you failed a Witch Time and Bat Within activated, all that happened was your enemy would be pushed back and you took no damage; http://bayonetta.wikia.com/wiki/Bat_Within. Because rolls exist in Smash... Maybe Bat Within should have windboxes instead... Imagine gimping characters like Ike and Little Mac because you just dodged. Brawl Ike Quick Draw nightmares, right?

I was pretty sure you could still get hit in Witch Time in her games, it was just unrealistic for it to happen

 

[Spelt]

Spelt

You're still as sunshine-y as ever!

Smooth Criminal

Yeah... that post ended up sounding a lot harsher than I meant it to. Ironically, my goal was to use it as a reminder to try and keep the thread positive.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm just giving you ****, dude. Good to see you around.

Smooth Criminal

 

[[Corn]]

Thought this was funny. I had a flashback from playing against Snake in Brawl and this is what happened.

 

[Sensane]

I've been seeing a pretty ridiculous amount of complaining in this thread recently IMO. Either stop playing her or figure out ways around the problems you're experiencing. If you're trying to get other's advice and experiences to help you improve that's fine, but just moaning about the problems you have with the character isn't going to help anyone.

I completely agree with you tbh. Since I use Shulk as a secondary, I can look past her mediocre frame data and look at some of her more positive features.

Also, RIP Snake.

 

[Ghidorah14]

To compensate, I don't think Bat Within should make the opponent slow down... Pretty sure in Bayonetta if you failed a Witch Time and Bat Within activated, all that happened was your enemy would be pushed back and you took no damage

Nope. Bat Within activates witch time in the games. It's quite literally a failsafe.

 

[Tarastel]

Hey Bayo Thread! Just thought you guys might enjoy this picture my Bellhenge!

Spoiler

 

[Ghidorah14]

 

[Funbot28]

Is it safe to say that we can add Bayo to this list?

I would put it at #6 or #5 tbh, she's that good imo.

 

[Otterz]

Is it safe to say that we can add Bayo to this list?

I would put it at #6 or #5 tbh, she's that good imo.

Bayonetta over Pre-Patch Diddy Kong? What?

And less than a week, this OP/Broken/Bad stuff is ridiculous.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Alternate version when you want to make someone saltier than Mcdonald's fries.

If your recovery does not instantly grab ledge you are basically rip vs Bayonetta... we can abuse so many recoveries this way and I love it. Ike is probably my favorite because you can Witch time him at the start of Aether and watch him slowly come up into a Down Smash spike LOL.

Edit:

We also have this vs some characters but I don't think it's guaranteed. Would be an interesting mix up and maybe get an up smash read on a get up/roll

 

[Ffamran]

Pretty sure you can get hit during witch time. Though whatever's happening during falco's fair, that's not how it should work I think. And bat within pushing the opponent back would be fine as long as it's only a slight push, anything more than that would probably get pretty crazy.

I don't know how her Smashes work in terms of hitboxes and priority, but Falco's Fair loop hits refresh every 4 frames... So, on frame 10, it hits from 10-13, followed by 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-29, and interestingly, the last hit is frame 28, meaning the last loop hit and last hit happen almost instantly. Basically, it has a lot of active frames. I'm going to assume Pikachu and Sonic's Fair don't do this if they only hit at individual frames, but if clanking has a "grace period" or whatever, it might do the same thing. Falco's Nair might not work... Eh, this willl probably need testing or get patched out.

Nope. Bat Within activates witch time in the games. It's quite literally a failsafe.

Yeah, I just skimmed the wiki entry. Considering how things are changed for balance reasons like if Smash was really true to source material, Ganondorf should at most go 10:90 against the Links. If it has a windbox to emulate the push, then maybe it shouldn't have Witch Time... People are complaining that Bayonetta gets Witch Time regardless if it's Witch Time or Bat Within which I think is a valid complaint, especially in 1v1 and For Glory aka For Lag which means Bayonetta's getting rewarded for "failing" to time her Witch Time unlike other characters who if they fail their counters, just get hit, or with Ryu, failing to take into account multi-hits, also getting hit and taking damage. Windbox and removal of Witch Time on Bat Within would allow Bayonetta to escape getting KO'd or taking too much damage and reset to neutral to what's currently escaping getting KO'd or taking too much damage and allowing her to potentially KO back which also happens with Witch Time, but with more leeway since it lasts longer. Actually, Witch Time could stay on Bat Within to create a sort of Matrix effect, but it should end sooner and push back the opponent.

 

[meleebrawler]

I was pretty sure you could still get hit in Witch Time in her games, it was just unrealistic for it to happen

Not sure about 2, but in Bayonetta 1 it DOES make her invincible (I think you need to use this to access an Alfeim on Military Transport Valkyrie). On top of increased movement speed and damage.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Idk if anyone has found this yet but you can fast fall cancel the first hit of Fair into a LOT of options. Fair's hitbox is also super good since you can jump directly above someone and still land the hitbox while falling behind them. You can net grabs, another fair, and even smash attacks out of this. This works at any % since fair's first and second hit have fixed knock back.

Some examples of smash attack true combo off of fair:

 

[I AKU I]

At 1:52. Alpha posts a link to what he calls a "very situational combo." Idk, I think it's very useful.

 

[Ghidorah14]

At 1:52. Alpha posts a link to what he calls a "very situational combo." Idk, I think it's very useful.

I'm pretty sure that was just a jab at people fussing over 0-death combos.

 

[Ffamran]

Idk if anyone has found this yet but you can fast fall cancel the first hit of Fair into a LOT of options. Fair's hitbox is also super good since you can jump directly above someone and still land the hitbox while falling behind them. You can net grabs, another fair, and even smash attacks out of this. This works at any % since fair's first and second hit have fixed knock back.

Some examples of smash attack true combo off of fair:

I'm getting Fox fast fall Fair to Up Smash vibes here... except all of Bayonetta's Smashes kill well compared to Fox's Up Smash and... Up Smash.

 

[I AKU I]

Goddamit Ghidorah14 , just follow the link! Alpha is a genius.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Goddamit Ghidorah14 , just follow the link! Alpha is a genius.

Ok seriously? A genius? No. Rick Rolling hasnt been even slightly funny in ages. Please dont make me waste my time by telling me to follow links just so I could be rick rolled.

I had assumed he was posting the actual 0-death combo he did just prior in the video.

 

[FullMoon]

So hey look at what I did.