The Founding of D Gamesia - Game over? Who scum wins reigned supreme in DGames?

[-Vocal-]

That's not flying, that's falling with style.

The BIGGEST reason not to vote for king is the roadmap it gives scum. You would vote for your biggest town read and let everyone and their mother know.



Sword, can you PLEASE shoot Forever Zero and end this bull**** phase.

I'm going to let people know my town reads anyways so...hrm? I also don't see how that's any different from a votecount in an ordinary game.

I don't know who to like here yet. Someone do something scummy already. How about we lynch Meadowsizzle so we don't have to deal with any more of the "Something Other Something III" rubbish - yea, that sounds good. Swords, my liege, your approval?


I'm also not used to playing with hydras, but I suppose I'll adjust.

 

[th3duder]

I don't like this more, duder completely ignores the substance of the post and just calls it fluff, while he's right that it is a bit fluffy words wise, the message is there, i feel duder is just looking for something that isn't there and already egging on Raziek as beat pressures him.

You're reaching.

Show me the substance in that post.

Soup v J?

Just seems like a dumb argument. J doesn't want Soup posting in flavour-speak for whatever reason. I'm not seeing where any "case" came in, though, so in that regard I'm agreeing with J. Not really seeing what the point of that "conflict" was at all.

As for whether or not I think Soup should change his posting style, I don't particularly care. I have no problem actually reading and understanding it, but I can see how he could use it to fluff his posts up. It'd probably be better if he stopped, but I don't PERSONALLY care.

The first paragraph is summarizing your exchange, which is information w/o analysis. His second is talking about his personal preference about your posting style.

I asked him what he thought of the exchange between you and J and the above is what I got. I didn't get any info as to how that affected his read on the players nor his actual thoughts on the exchange at all. That's not substance.

@Raz: Read on the Soup.

@Sword: Talk to me about 188. What's your read on that hydra?

 

[th3duder]

@Soup: What about 141 changed your read?

 

[th3duder]

I don't know who to like here yet. Someone do something scummy already. How about we lynch Meadowsizzle so we don't have to deal with any more of the "Something Other Something III" rubbish - yea, that sounds good. Swords, my liege, your approval?

We've moved out of the random accusation stage quite awhile ago, I don't see why you feel the need to keep returning to joke suggestions. There's plenty else to comment on.

What's your read on Chibo? Do you still hold the same opinion that the kingmaker shouldn't claim after my better half has explained why it's a good idea?

@Sword: Throw in a vocal read too, thx.

 

[Chaco]

got it. ill read tomorw after worl.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@duder

The substance in that post is that you completely ignored what raziek was saying and merely called it fluff, you then egg on what beat is saying for no reason, hell you even parrot yourself twice on the fact it's fluff and wishy-washy.

His substance in his post is that it's dumb, but he agrees with J on a certain matter, how is this not substance? Where can you not tell his read here?

 

[Meadowsizzle]

Can the hydras who haven't yet put the ppl in the location like all others? I keep forgetting who is in which

I don't know who to like here yet. Someone do something scummy already. How about we lynch Meadowsizzle so we don't have to deal with any more of the "Something Other Something III" rubbish - yea, that sounds good. Swords, my liege, your approval?

@both

When do people even have regular conversations with themselves lol

All the time, actually. Or at least most of us do. It's just really hard to quote our brain.

Real talk later when me and other half of my brain, since we are a singular person, can discuss what direction we're going how to end ForeverZero.

 

[th3duder]

@duder

The substance in that post is that you completely ignored what raziek was saying and merely called it fluff, you then egg on what beat is saying for no reason, hell you even parrot yourself twice on the fact it's fluff and wishy-washy.

His substance in his post is that it's dumb, but he agrees with J on a certain matter, how is this not substance? Where can you not tell his read here?

Are you dumb?

Raziek said absolutely nothing in that post except that he thought the exchange was dumb and that he didn't really have an opinion on whether you continued to talk in old English. How does that in any way give me insight into his read on either you or J/Moth?

Wtf are you talking about with the egging line? Beat was asking Raziek questions on a different subject than what I was pressuring him. I was pushing him because his responses were scummy.

Ignoring the fact that you can't parrot yourself, quote for me where I repeated myself that wasn't unprompted by Raziek's response.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

159, duder, not 141.

 

[th3duder]

You're right, my mistake.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Ninja, still 159.

He just said it, it's dumb, it doesn't affect his reads so therefore he didn't have one, he agreed with J but its still dumb.

It's in My response to swords.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Alright duder, now that's done, who's your main point of interest right now?

Who will you be pressuring?

 

[th3duder]

In your response to Sword you just quote 159 and say "and there you have it."

What about 159 specifically changed your read.

 

[th3duder]

He just said it, it's dumb, it doesn't affect his reads so therefore he didn't have one, he agreed with J but its still dumb.

I know that's what he's saying, I'm not blind. What does that tell me about his thoughts on alignment? Nothing.

Alright duder, now that's done, who's your main point of interest right now?

Who will you be pressuring?

Depends on how Vocal responds to my questions.

 

[Xivii]

Can the hydras who haven't yet put the ppl in the location like all others? I keep forgetting who is in which

Question: Why does it matter so long as the two halves only post on the hydra?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

159 in general, pretty apathetic and looks more confused townie along with My other points.

Gonna be honest with you duder, I'm cautious of you, but as you are, I'm more concerned with vocal, he has done little to nothing and as you put it wants a joke lynch.

IGMEOY, but we're good for now.

 

[Xivii]

Are you trying to poison the water hole? There aren't any protective roles in this game. If kingmaker claims he gets NK'd and we just get a new kingmaker.

You're an idiot if you really think having the kingmaker claim is pro town in any way.
Zen I want your reasoning on having him claim ASAP.

Sword and Duder are correct. Did you even think before posting this. How is KM claiming anti-town? And again what was the point of 188? You stated it was time time to get things going, but then did nothing. You didn't even say why you voted me.

 

[-Vocal-]

We've moved out of the random accusation stage quite awhile ago, I don't see why you feel the need to keep returning to joke suggestions. There's plenty else to comment on.

What's your read on Chibo? Do you still hold the same opinion that the kingmaker shouldn't claim after my better half has explained why it's a good idea?

@Sword: Throw in a vocal read too, thx.

At your first paragraph, I sort of disagree. Nothing thus far has given me reason to suspect anyone; all I see is null tells all around. I don't claim to be the best at day 1 scum hunting, but nothing caught my eye - til now, but I'll get to that in a moment.

My read on Chibo is null, same as my read on (nearly) everyone. His comment at the start of the day about no one dying means nothing. His catchup post asked some questions, and while there's not really anything too strong to comment on at this point it was at least encouraging activity. His last couple posts have been about hydra info, andare meaningless as far as scum tells go.

Moving on, my sole suspicion as of the moment is you. You ask me if I still hold the same opinion I did before now that your other half has explained his new stance, yet his new stance is (correct me if I'm wrong) identical to the stance I've had since the beginning. One of the nuggets of knowledge I've picked up in my games so far is that scum tend to skim more than town, which would explain you not knowing my position well. It's not strong, but it's rare for me to get a strong read on the first day unless someone acts in an extremely scummy manner; anyone who's played with me before can lend credence to that.

@both

All the time, actually. Or at least most of us do. It's just really hard to quote our brain.

Real talk later when me and other half of my brain, since we are a singular person, can discuss what direction we're going how to end ForeverZero.

I really hope this doesn't continue past the first day. And let it be known that I'm not adressing MS directly, so there is no need for more gifs.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

People who want to have the kingmaker claim are extremely dumb or scum.

People who want to vote so the kingmaker knows who we want to be king are pretty dumb or scum.

Having the kingmaker claim means that scum can continue to kill the kingmaker until it ends up on a townie they can control. It lets them pick who our kingmaker is and gives them a better shot at becoming king. Then the night before 3/4 man LyLo/MyLo, the scum kill the kingmaker and we go in with no clear. It can end up with a 50-50 between two kingmaker claimants, but that's not a bad position for scum in 3 man. Plus, if an obv town is alive at that point and gets it, the scum don't have to CC. It gives scum more control over the game and that heavily outweighs the advantages of taking one name out of the lynchpool. Yeah sure, if you're about to be shot, then claim it. Let scum fake claim and we'll out our kingmaker with a CC. Good trade. That's how the clear should come out. The next day the kingmaker should not claim if the original was night killed and scum should be back to square one minus one mate. There are too many people pushing this bull**** for them to all be scum, but there is definitely some scum on that movement. We're this much closer to finding Forever Zero's scummates.

Now the vote on who to make king thing is simply ********. I don't think it's more than a null tell for those involved. Vocal is a moron because it's obviously different than a normal votecount because you're not voting for a lynch, you're voting for who you trust. Yes, it allows a platform for town to direct who becomes King, but it also allows a platform for scum to manipulate that vote (like a vote to lynch). More importantly though, is that it gives scum an idea who they need to kill. The kingmaker sends in 2 choices and they know which of the popular opinion is town and which is scum and can night kill to make the crown end up where they want. In a town v. town scenario, they can also night kill selectively in order to end up with the most scum sympathetic king out of their options. Yes, this does not guarantee that the Kingmaker will act in such a predictable way, but if we're not taking the vote into account, then there is no reason to have the votecount unless you just want to give away freely the town's general consensus on who they trust.


At this point, our definite scum read is Forever Zero. Sword should shoot him now before he gets in the thread and is given a chance to pollute the minds of the weaker men in the peasantry.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

Moving on, my sole suspicion as of the moment is you. You ask me if I still hold the same opinion I did before now that your other half has explained his new stance, yet his new stance is (correct me if I'm wrong) identical to the stance I've had since the beginning. One of the nuggets of knowledge I've picked up in my games so far is that scum tend to skim more than town, which would explain you not knowing my position well. It's not strong, but it's rare for me to get a strong read on the first day unless someone acts in an extremely scummy manner; anyone who's played with me before can lend credence to that.

Man, you're REALLY good at looking like you're flying when you're falling with style.

**** staying alive tonight. Real case incoming.

Sword, if you pull the trigger before I am done nailing the scum team (this will take a little bit more time than simply nailing th3duder), then you have earned yourself a shot to the face tomorrow. I am 100% confident that I can nail the entire scum team based on this first seven pages, so you will wait for my okay on that gun, got it. This is no exaggeration, whatsoever.

 

[-Vocal-]

Man, you're REALLY good at looking like you're flying when you're falling with style.

**** staying alive tonight. Real case incoming.

Sword, if you pull the trigger before I am done nailing the scum team (this will take a little bit more time than simply nailing th3duder), then you have earned yourself a shot to the face tomorrow. I am 100% confident that I can nail the entire scum team based on this first seven pages, so you will wait for my okay on that gun, got it. This is no exaggeration, whatsoever.

All this fanfare, get to your point. There is no use in tooting your own horn - post your case and let your words speak for themselves. I don't like it when people try to influence opinions before even giving reasoning.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

I recommend setting this on a loop before you start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPZcPfzKn_U

There's more that goes on before this post, but I'll get to it in a moment as it occurs throughout the game and deserves it's own section.

th3duder vs. Raziek:

That being said feel free to denote your suspicion through the medium of your choice, whether it be vote fos or just speech.

But basically this



@Raz: Talk to me about Soup v J.

Ignore the first bit and look at the last line. That's the important one. Soup vs. J is quite literally nothing. There is no confrontation. Pointing Raz at it to see what he says is all fine and good. I do not mind it. It's early game and a point to get people talking on.

Soup v J?

Just seems like a dumb argument. J doesn't want Soup posting in flavour-speak for whatever reason. I'm not seeing where any "case" came in, though, so in that regard I'm agreeing with J. Not really seeing what the point of that "conflict" was at all.

As for whether or not I think Soup should change his posting style, I don't particularly care. I have no problem actually reading and understanding it, but I can see how he could use it to fluff his posts up. It'd probably be better if he stopped, but I don't PERSONALLY care.

This is Raziek's response. He correctly calls it as worthless. He explains that there is no conflict. He further explains what he feels about that stupid Soup posting style thing.

Man.

I don't like Raziek already.

Duder's only elaboration until Beatstick posts calling it fluff and Raziek responds. Duder's next post references Raziek's response to Beatstick which I somehow missed in my multiquote.

I learned absolutely nothing from this answer. Literally two paragraphs of fluff, as beat said.



Important part is in bold. Your response again tells me absolutely nothing and it fails to address anything important Beat actually said. Instead you just poke fun at his wording with the last line.

Here is a link to the above post as the quotes within it are important: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13015705&postcount=140

His first line is in reference to Raziek's original comment that he didn't elaborate on until now. It is complete and utter bull****. He is saying he learned absolutely nothing from this answer, which he didn't. The problem with that is that Raziek only posted those two paragraphs because th3duder pointed him at a worthless subject to begin with. There was nothing really to be gained from a correct response to th3duder's original request to comment on "Soup vs. J." He is trying to set Raziek up as scummy for a direct response to a question that answers the question.

The bolded bit was Beat calling Raziek's post fluff. What is the correct answer to an accusation of fluff in this situation? No, th3duder, I'm not asking you to answer that, I'll answer it. There isn't one. Yes, the post was worthless, but no, the post is not trying to give the illusion of content when there is none like you are implying that it does.

I don't see how you can call the first paragraph fluff. I saw no point to their "conflict", and I disagree with it really even being a conflict.

That's why I posted "Soup v J?", because I didn't think it was even anything of merit.

It took you two paragraphs to say the above bolded sentence.

How is that not fluff?

I took the liberty of bolding the part that th3duder is referencing.

There is no reason for Duder's attack. First, the two paragraphs reference different things. Second, the content is readily available in the original answer. Because it had more words than the tl;dr that Duder bolded is absolutely no excuse to make this accusation. But do you know who has been posting fluff everywhere? Duder. I'll get to that in the next section.

Apologies if you don't like my posting style.

I'll try to be more concise. I just dislike when people misinterpret me, so I try to make sure any concerns are addressed adequately.

Don't give me that.

It's not your posting style. I've seen you be plenty concise before.

EBWOP: And the second paragraph wasn't even related to your question, so don't blow it out of proportion.

I answered the question in the very first sentence. "Just seems like a dumb argument." The rest was clarification.

Raziek again responds correctly. The only part here I want to point out is the way Duder is pointing out that Raziek has to be concise. I'm almost certain I've discussed walls with Kuz before and he was of the opinion that it doesn't matter the length of the post, it matters the content, which Raziek had. Short is better, but not necessary.

Thus ends the main exchange.

Farther down however, he makes this post.

@Chibo: OOC --> Out of character. Games it has ****ed town up in the past? BiM1 BiM2 almost BiM3 and BiM4.



No, it doesn't. Why would it? Just because you're the one deciding the lynch doesn't mean that scum can't fake the same trails they could if anyone could shoot. With its addition people are going to be drawing inferences from such trails which will lead town in circles because of how easily they can be faked (you can and should who you want dead regardless of what the majority of town says).



He was doing scummy thing thus I pushed him for it. I switched over to Soup because of his statement "I like Beat, thoughts?" which was very OOC Soup and made him explain his reasoning. I then did chores, ate dinner, and played borderlands and here I am now.

Where did I expect it to go?

Redundant, question is redundant.

I have just explained how it wasn't scummy. I've implied, but now I'll state that I think he expected it to go nowhere when he posted it and was simply fishing for a reaction he could try and set a mislynch with. I don't know if he expected that to be the one or for something else to come through for him, but that was his aim.

You're reaching.

Show me the substance in that post.



The first paragraph is summarizing your exchange, which is information w/o analysis. His second is talking about his personal preference about your posting style.

I asked him what he thought of the exchange between you and J and the above is what I got. I didn't get any info as to how that affected his read on the players nor his actual thoughts on the exchange at all. That's not substance.

The first to lines are in response to him being called out for the same thing I'm calling him out for now (being called out by Soup, IIRC). Calling it fluff for no reason. I ask you to stand by that post and explain to everyone why MY post is reaching.

The second section directly contradicts an earlier post he made, specifically, this one.

I don't see how you can call the first paragraph fluff. I saw no point to their "conflict", and I disagree with it really even being a conflict.

That's why I posted "Soup v J?", because I didn't think it was even anything of merit.

It took you two paragraphs to say the above bolded sentence.

How is that not fluff?

He says that both paragraphs add up to the bolded sentence whereas in the later post, he correctly analyzes them as what they are. The following paragraph even states that his issue with them was the lack of an included stance, not that they were fluff (which is, by mafia definition, additional noncontent added to make your post look like it had more than it did). Not only does he NEVER tell Raziek that his problem was the lack of a stance, he also completely ignored the fact that Raziek made it clear that he found the exchange worthless, meaning it wouldn't affect his stances on the players.

Duder did, in fact, recieve Raziek's opinion on the exchange, he just chose to disregard in favor of pushing this pile of **** on Raziek.

I will, however, thank Duder for removing any doubt in my mind that he was simply trying to generate content for people to talk about by sticking to his terrible stance on Raziek.

Now for one more.

Are you dumb?

Raziek said absolutely nothing in that post except that he thought the exchange was dumb and that he didn't really have an opinion on whether you continued to talk in old English. How does that in any way give me insight into his read on either you or J/Moth?

Wtf are you talking about with the egging line? Beat was asking Raziek questions on a different subject than what I was pressuring him. I was pushing him because his responses were scummy.

Ignoring the fact that you can't parrot yourself, quote for me where I repeated myself that wasn't unprompted by Raziek's response.

You contradict yourself again. You say he never gave you his opinion on the exchange, yet you acknowledge that he said the whole thing was dumb. You KNOW how his reads were affected by the exchange, you just refuse to admit that his answer did, in fact, satisfy the condition of your question regardless of whether the intent was to get his read based on the situation or, more literal to your request, simply comment on the exchange.

I know that's what he's saying, I'm not blind. What does that tell me about his thoughts on alignment? Nothing.

For someone not blind, you don't seem to read your own posts very well.

You NEVER asked Raziek for a comment on alignment in your original exchange, so that can't have been your real issue. You would've clarified and he would've told you either that he thought this player looked a little town/scum after it or, more likely, that it was stupid and had no real affect on his reads.

Why would TownDuder NOT list his grievance at that time? There is no answer to satisfy that question. He needs to be shot. He misrepresents Raziek's posts to try and make them look scummy and then he doubles back on what he previously said and changes the reason for his case.

There is more to come on th3Duder, but this is the end of this section.

Swords, do not shoot him until I am finished. Finished commenting on him and also finished pinning the rest of his scum team, because we have them nailed already. You will shoot when we give the okay or the next king will shoot you. Do you understand this? I want a yes or a no.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

Fluff and th3duder:

As I just demonstrated, Duder sure has a big problem with fluff, am I right? Course I am. Now then, I want you to take a peek in these collapse tags and see just how many posts th3duder has made that are nothing but null tells. This doesn't include fluff posted within any post with some sort of comment.

Spoiler

thats certainly not fair. i was so excited, perhaps appeased, to see that i had been made king only to find out i hadnt been made king

pretty freaking much this

I said it in BiM4 and I'll say it again.

Votecounts in games that don't warrant them are the dumbest idea this side of memphis. We don't have deadline nor do we need the town's majority to make any important decision so we don't need to bother with it. In that game in particular we had scum sneak by a situation which would have normally got him lynched because he was so vehemently supporting the implementation of votecounts that everyone thought he was too pro-town to be scum. It gives scum a chance to act like they want people leaving a permanent voting trail while in reality they can just use it to their advantage knowing that any of the dayvigs (king in this case) can choose someone completely irrelevant than who the wagon is on.

tl;dr its not necessary and we aren't using it.

I have a better idea.

Lets lynch scum regardless of their activity level.

Epiphany.

@Marluxia_: when you answer my better half's wtfamireading.jpg, can you explain to me your thought process when you answered the Rabbit King's question about RVS?




im happy to oblige a full game. yellowed is essentially what i would do as king. i would suggest that, if we do use a voting system (and frankly it cannot be stopped; if i seem to disagree with my better half here, read on to the next quote section), do not fall into the pit of making this game rely TRULY on the voting system - you cannot, it is not there, you are just creating drama and null-tell tension that scum can use to pull the wool over their wolfpelt and over your eyes. a voting system can show who someone says they want the king to kill, but it can just as easily be said in conversation; so its neither a good idea nor a bad idea if used efficiently, but if used inefficiently it is definitely a bad idea.



i agree with my better half, especially on that last line - they are unnecessary. HOWEVER, we will not stand for witch hunts on players who are using a vote to express their belief even though there is no voting system; neither will we stand for players who use the voting system discussion to seem pro-town or anti-town.

if you only take one thing away from this post, let it be that your opinion on trying to implement a voting system is not pro-town, and it is not anti-town. it is a null tell. if it becomes the only thing you are talking about, or if you try to use it as leverage to convince the king to kill another player, you are dumborscum.

@chaco - whats up my *****.

@chibo - you gonna die day 1?

@ForeverZero - the four of us all know you could easily prove the Rabbit King wrong with any number of gambits even though its an open setup. if you do try to prove him wrong, just make sure it skews the game heavily in town's favor

good discussion

law 1: drastic measures indeed. the normal sentiments towards lynching inactives apply here - dont be blinded by tunneling; listen to arguments.
law 2: not exactly. it remains to be seen what we will do if the king goes against the popular opinion, but remember that the only person who can policy lynch the king is the next day's king, and then he can't be king until the day after next. dont be blinded by tunneling; listen to arguments.



think this through and post again



respond to chibo's response

@myself: Stop saying things I want to say before I say them

@Chibo: You should (re)read the kingmaker rules to freshen up on the setup mechanics. I don't wanna waste time on it in thread.

Or sou p

@myself: stop hitting yourself stop hitting yourself

@chibo: i will, however, indulge my time into this. there was a night phase and there are no anti killing or protective roles - you just answered your own unnecessary question, then, didn't you? #1 dumb or scum - why are you asking a question that you can already surmise the answer to? are you scum trying to drop IMNOTSCUM tells by asking this question already knowing that you didnt get a kill night 0?

Votecounts in these types of games have literally screwed up town every single time we've ever tried it in the past and trust me I have been in plenty of them and read the remainder of them.

As tom said, even when its used correctly its not a bad or a good thing. It's completely neutral. When its used incorrectly it's terrible for town. We aren't using it.

Scum can fake trails all too easily in this type of game because, derp, the king is the one who makes the final decision and we are already prompting him to not listen to votecounts at all. And he shouldn't.

Because I say it does.

i just want to note that we should TAKE OUR TIME

Don worry, Sword isn't an idiot.

its not that hard to figure out the pro to kingmaker-claiming like zen is suggesting

think about the role, its requirements, and what happens if he is killed

you need to contribute more than this. this isn't even a post in my opinion because you're just debating the null-tell player-made policy. you are equal to frozenzero in contribution.



my better half will have to answer the first question; he was the one who suggested it, i believe.

i can answer the second question; i didnt suggest kingmaker claiming simply because i didnt think of it. however, once i read zen's post about it, i immediately saw the pro of always having 1 true clear or a 50:50 chance in lylo if kingmaker is cc'd.

HOWEVER i just thoguht of something while making this post, and i think im now against kingmaker claiming



first - that was my better half, he will have to answer

second - i agreed, up until JUST now. now im thinking about it more.

the kingmaker claiming would give us a clear, but all that accomplishes is having us NOT lynch the kingmaker. however, we gain that same advantage as long as the king gives his lynch target an adequate time to claim kingmaker/hero/villager, and there are also advantages for town to NOT having the kingmaker known when it comes to flips and claims.







wouldnt it be a good thing for the kingmaker to get nightkilled? it means that the hero isn't dying. isn't that a good thing?

if the kingmaker dies we arent really losing a PR, because we gain a new one.

i dont really think anyone is an idiot if they think its pro town in some way. because it can be pro-town like i just explained in a few ways. do you understand?

oh, also @king rabbit - i dont know what you mean by saying i defended Zen. ill gladly explain my thought process i just dont know what exactly youre talking about. maybe it was my better half.

Now, some of these posts would be okay in a smaller quantity. We posted explaining that people are utterly ******** for wanting to vote for tomorrow's king and to want the kingmaker to claim. However, he has such a high count of mechanic based and straight up garbage posts to add to the stupid **** we pointed out in our first post with no redeeming findings from the few posts where he actually questions people. That is 16 posts of nothing substantial. I am forced to assume that he is fishing for town points by commenting on ALL the mechanic arguments and having a high post count.

Look at the posts in the collapse tags yourself and see what you would count against him and what you wouldn't.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

So, to end this cheery night, I would like to tell you something Tom.

Welcome to Bonertown.

 

[Meadowsizzle]

All this fanfare, get to your point. There is no use in tooting your own horn - post your case and let your words speak for themselves. I don't like it when people try to influence opinions before even giving reasoning.

I will forgive your failure to address me correctly this once to tell you to shut the **** up.

 

[th3duder]

So, to end this cheery night, I would like to tell you something Tom.

Welcome to Bonertown.

lol @ thinking you could bring me to boner town.

until you posted the collapse tag (post 263) simply reposting our posts and saying "look and find null tells... they're now scum tells!" (which is laughable in itself) and "he has contributed nothing in 16 posts!" (which is just a lie - for being 24 hours into a game i think we've contributed far more than enough), literally everything you quoted (post 262) was kuzzy talking, so you will have to wait for him to respond.

but that 263 is abysmal. and your attitude is terrible too, imho you aren't good enough to get away with that

 

[th3duder]

Ryker. Stop playing like a complete ******.

Post 263, as tom said, is you trying to make what you even call null tells, scum tells. Your point makes no sense considering the content we have given previously and you're trying to get away with making the point that I am being hypocritical because of challenging Raziek on one post. That's like accusing someone of bad WIFOM and then them turning around and quoting everywhere in the game previously you used WIFOM and saying "nou." It's a terrible argument and the ammount of reaching you're doing to make null-tells out to be scum-tells is laughable.

Having the kingmaker claim means that scum can continue to kill the kingmaker until it ends up on a townie they can control. It lets them pick who our kingmaker is and gives them a better shot at becoming king. Then the night before 3/4 man LyLo/MyLo, the scum kill the kingmaker and we go in with no clear. It can end up with a 50-50 between two kingmaker claimants, but that's not a bad position for scum in 3 man. Plus, if an obv town is alive at that point and gets it, the scum don't have to CC. It gives scum more control over the game and that heavily outweighs the advantages of taking one name out of the lynchpool. Yeah sure, if you're about to be shot, then claim it. Let scum fake claim and we'll out our kingmaker with a CC. Good trade. That's how the clear should come out. The next day the kingmaker should not claim if the original was night killed and scum should be back to square one minus one mate. There are too many people pushing this bull**** for them to all be scum, but there is definitely some scum on that movement. We're this much closer to finding Forever Zero's scummates.

I feel compelled to post pictures to this post. Why are you playing like such an absolute ******? Bull**** it lets them pick who our kingmaker is, it lets them get rid of the current one and replace it with someone at random. Regardless of who's alive at the time, they will be trying to influence the kingmaker as much as scum will which won't have that much affect unless town is being dumb.

@Bolded: Did you even think about what you're saying before you said it? A kingmaker claiming the Day before Lylo/Mylo might be killed that Night before we enter that phase and then a new one will be crowned. In those phases that could out one of them as scum and the kingmaker himself. What does not having the kingmaker claim have anything to do with that? If the Kingmaker doesn't claim, and you role into mylo or lylo, the exact same type of claim and counterclaim could occur regardless of whether the kingmaker claimed the Day before. It's not like there are any results to fake because scum know who became king each and every Day so they don't have to fake results if the kingmaker doesn't claim for the entire game.

You're completely ignoring that the kingmaker gives you a clear and it gives you another confirmed townie on any day if scum decide to take him out (barring a cc in lylo/mylo which still 50% outs scum as well as town). This heavily outweighs the cons you've listed, which are non-existent because you didn't have enough sense to actually think about its implications.

I'll respond to 262 in a moment.

 

[Purple]

Ryker is scum, he's posting too much. We done here?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

oh, also @king rabbit - i dont know what you mean by saying i defended Zen. ill gladly explain my thought process i just dont know what exactly youre talking about. maybe it was my better half.

I was reffering to you agreeing with Zen. You stated that "you could see the advantages of kingmaker claiming" (paraphased) but never stated why. You've went over now though so okay.

He was doing scummy thing thus I pushed him for it. I switched over to Soup because of his statement "I like Beat, thoughts?" which was very OOC Soup and made him explain his reasoning. I then did chores, ate dinner, and played borderlands and here I am now.

Where did I expect it to go?

Redundant, question is redundant.

No, the question wasn't reduntant. Both questions were different. The first question was asking you what happened to the case. The second was reffering were you could of expected it to go, because it was kinda linear.

@Sword: Talk to me about 188. What's your read on that hydra?

188 was just kind of a pointless post that came up out of the blue. I don't think I can really read anything into that besides from the fact that it was an unneeded post.

Right now I have a null slight scum read on that hydra, due to one of their earlier post (the one attacking Soup) that I did not like.

@Sword: Throw in a vocal read too, thx.

He's null.

I know that's what he's saying, I'm not blind. What does that tell me about his thoughts on alignment? Nothing.

He has no thoughts of alingment though, that's the whole point. He has stated that he couldn't get any feel off of alingment from what you asked of him, and that's true. Based off of what happened, you really can't.

People who want to have the kingmaker claim are extremely dumb or scum.

People who want to vote so the kingmaker knows who we want to be king are pretty dumb or scum.

Having the kingmaker claim means that scum can continue to kill the kingmaker until it ends up on a townie they can control. It lets them pick who our kingmaker is and gives them a better shot at becoming king. Then the night before 3/4 man LyLo/MyLo, the scum kill the kingmaker and we go in with no clear. It can end up with a 50-50 between two kingmaker claimants, but that's not a bad position for scum in 3 man. Plus, if an obv town is alive at that point and gets it, the scum don't have to CC. It gives scum more control over the game and that heavily outweighs the advantages of taking one name out of the lynchpool. Yeah sure, if you're about to be shot, then claim it. Let scum fake claim and we'll out our kingmaker with a CC. Good trade. That's how the clear should come out. The next day the kingmaker should not claim if the original was night killed and scum should be back to square one minus one mate. There are too many people pushing this bull**** for them to all be scum, but there is definitely some scum on that movement. We're this much closer to finding Forever Zero's scummates.

I never really thought of it like this. I was more so just going along the line of reasoning that we would have a clear townie everyday, and if scum killed the kingmaker we would just have another clear.

You're reasoning is kinda pesstimistic though. It's true that a naive townie could be given the crown, but so could a good one. Besides, even if a smart townie is kingmaker, they can still mistakenly give the crown away to scum. No matter what that mistake might happen.

Also I'm not following your kingmaker shouldn't claim becasue of lylo reasoning. What you're concerned about (scum challenging a scummy townie claiming kingmaker in lylo/mylo) does indeed seem like something that could happen reguardless of the kingmaker claiming on a previous Day or not.

In anycase, I'm not really taking anyone's opinion on the kingmaker claiming into account (unless something about it really obviiously scummy) when it comes to who I kill toDay.

Swords, do not shoot him until I am finished. Finished commenting on him and also finished pinning the rest of his scum team, because we have them nailed already. You will shoot when we give the okay or the next king will shoot you. Do you understand this? I want a yes or a no.

yes

@Duder: Do you still think Raz is worth attcking?

 

[th3duder]

No, the question wasn't reduntant. Both questions were different. The first question was asking you what happened to the case. The second was reffering were you could of expected it to go, because it was kinda linear.

I was expecting it to go where I expected any pressure to go. Either I was satisfied with his answers and stopped pushing him or I did not like them and continued to push them. That's where you can expect any push to go so, yes, it was redundant.

188 was just kind of a pointless post that came up out of the blue. I don't think I can really read anything into that besides from the fact that it was an unneeded post.

Really? Is there nothing about that post that lines up with how that hydra had been posting earlier that Day? Don't you find it strange that they seem very preoccupied with "transitioning out of RVS talk." Before that post there had been plenty of to discuss yet they keep coming back to talking about how they can get people out of RVS. I find it strange, to say the least.

He has no thoughts of alingment though, that's the whole point. He has stated that he couldn't get any feel off of alingment from what you asked of him, and that's true. Based off of what happened, you really can't.

Bull**** he stated that. He said "it looks like a dumb argument" and then went on to "clarify" that without telling me what that meant for his thoughts. Only after I questioned him about did he clarify that it did not affect his reads to which I responded that that was all he needed to say. And bull**** you can't get reads off of that exchange because you most certainly can. It affected my read on both players and Soup even says in his 142 that it affected his.

He's null.

Why?

yes

You're letting sizzle run the show for you despite telling us you'll decided who and when you'll shoot? Gross.

@Duder: Do you still think Raz is worth attcking?

Possibly. He made one apathetic post in response to my pressure and hasn't said anything since then. Certainly not off the hook but there are other things cropping up that deserve my attention more than him.

@Sword: What is your view on having the Kingmaker claim? If you agree with me that Sizzle's reasoning is dumb then are you with me in supporting a kingmaker claim now? Do you agree with my 267?

 

[th3duder]

Man 262 is just such a reach fest I don't even want to answer it.

But I must plow through the bull****.

@Raziek and Soup: Read on sizzle.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Null-leaning town, I like that he sees what i see, but it's sort of a add-on, and i guess i'm fine with that, however, all you do is refute stand points against you as putting null-tells into scum-tells, why is it a null-tell? why wasn't what raziek did a null-tell? you certaintly didn't treat it that way and i'm not going to either. same goes with just saying it's reaching, not liking it, duder.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Also i don't care for the pictures and arrogance of sizzle, but it's Ryker, i'll let it slide.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

and i agree with MS, Raziek wasn't in the arguement, i was, it was my own objective to get Reactions, so it worked for me, and furthermore, you got a read off my read by saying it was for reactions, didn't you?

yes, you did.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

EBWOP: Swords, not MS, my bad.

 

[th3duder]

Null-leaning town, I like that he sees what i see, but it's sort of a add-on, and i guess i'm fine with that, however, all you do is refute stand points against you as putting null-tells into scum-tells, why is it a null-tell? why wasn't what raziek did a null-tell? you certaintly didn't treat it that way and i'm not going to either. same goes with just saying it's reaching, not liking it, duder.

Thats not all I do, I did that once this game which is exactly what Sizzle was doing. If I'm wrong there, show me where I was wrong. Sizzle says in his 263 that all the quotes he brings up are null tells and then tries to call us a hypocrite for attacking Raziek on a post that he then tries to reach and draw parallels to. "You can't attack him for posting fluff because look at all the times you posted fluff!" He says this despite the fact that nearly every post he quoted was either from my better half or part of RVS and that we had given plenty of other information in addition to those posts.

What Raziek did wasn't a null-tell and I'm not going to treat it as a null-tell if it wasn't. You even agree with me that you didn't like what Raziek was doing in the quoted post, as well as back then when the incident actually happened. Therefore, I don't see how you can make the argument that I was attacking Raziek for a null tell regardless of how he tries to spin it.

and i agree with Sword, Raziek wasn't in the arguement, i was, it was my own objective to get Reactions, so it worked for me, and furthermore, you got a read off my read by saying it was for reactions, didn't you?

yes, you did.

Don't understand the first part. Explain.

To the second, yes. I did get a read on you from that, what of it?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Basically, Raziek's intent wasn't to get anything out of the arguement between me and J, it was my intent, raziek just found it stupid and commented on it because you asked him to.

Good, just checking, see above.

 

[th3duder]

Having the kingmaker claim means that scum can continue to kill the kingmaker until it ends up on a townie they can control. It lets them pick who our kingmaker is and gives them a better shot at becoming king. Then the night before 3/4 man LyLo/MyLo, the scum kill the kingmaker and we go in with no clear. It can end up with a 50-50 between two kingmaker claimants, but that's not a bad position for scum in 3 man. Plus, if an obv town is alive at that point and gets it, the scum don't have to CC. It gives scum more control over the game and that heavily outweighs the advantages of taking one name out of the lynchpool. Yeah sure, if you're about to be shot, then claim it. Let scum fake claim and we'll out our kingmaker with a CC. Good trade. That's how the clear should come out. The next day the kingmaker should not claim if the original was night killed and scum should be back to square one minus one mate. There are too many people pushing this bull**** for them to all be scum, but there is definitely some scum on that movement. We're this much closer to finding Forever Zero's scummates.

I have colored statements of yours that are simply wrong. I will respond to them in color coded fashion.

They don't get to pick who our kingmaker is. They just get to pick if they like having the current player cleared or if they would rather have a randomized different played cleared; and if they choose to have a randomized different player cleared, they are going one more night without killing the Hero who is a possible safeclaim.

You say 3-man lylo with a king and two kingmaker claims isn't a bad position for scum? It is literally 50:50. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is literally the worst position for scum. Also, having the kingmaker refrain from claiming before 3-man lylo does not make the situation any better, as you would seem to have us think, because his claim is not any stronger the next day.

"At that point the scum dont have to cc" meaning 3-4 man lylo? That's what you've been talking about. If the scum didn't counter-claim the Kingmaker at that point (4 man being the only possible, as 3 man would definitely see a cc), it would still be 50:50, wouldn't it?

How does it give scum more control over the game? I think you need to re-think this. I don't see how it can possibly "heavily outweigh" a constant clear.

I'm very interested in your responses. You couldn't have been wrong about four things in one paragraph, could you? That would just be embarrassing.

 

[th3duder]

Man my better half going deep and bringing out the color coordination.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

[QUOTE-Duder]
Really? Is there nothing about that post that lines up with how that hydra had been posting earlier that Day? Don't you find it strange that they seem very preoccupied with "transitioning out of RVS talk." Before that post there had been plenty of to discuss yet they keep coming back to talking about how they can get people out of RVS. I find it strange, to say the least. [/QUOTE]

Well, I was viewing the post in a vacum. Thinking of it in this context, I can see it being false content, as you're right that in that point in time we weren't really in the RVS anymore.

Bull**** he stated that. He said "it looks like a dumb argument" and then went on to "clarify" that without telling me what that meant for his thoughts. Only after I questioned him about did he clarify that it did not affect his reads to which I responded that that was all he needed to say. And bull**** you can't get reads off of that exchange because you most certainly can. It affected my read on both players and Soup even says in his 142 that it affected his.

By him saying that "it's just a dumb exchange," I think that he was heavily implying that he couldn't get anything out of it.

I don't really agree with the bolded. It was just a minor exchange over nothing of value that any read it might of produced would have to be incredibly minor. You could argue that Raz should of at least got something minor out of it, but at that point you wouldn't even be arguing over something that was scummy, but rather simply something that was anti-town.

Why?

Because I've haven't really seen anything out of him that I would count as either scummy or townie? He really hasn't done anything note worthy, besides make a minor push on you and answer some questions related to the mechanics of the game. The only thing I can see as being indicitive of his alignment, looking at it a bit harder, is the fact that his push against you is over something very minor and generic. Really just need more content from him, but you could say that about a lot of people at this point.

You're letting sizzle run the show for you despite telling us you'll decided who and when you'll shoot? Gross.

No. He's simply requested of me to not shoot anyone yet until he's finished, which I planned to do anyway.

Possibly. He made one apathetic post in response to my pressure and hasn't said anything since then. Certainly not off the hook but there are other things cropping up that deserve my attention more than him.

ok. fair

@Sword: What is your view on having the Kingmaker claim? If you agree with me that Sizzle's reasoning is dumb then are you with me in supporting a kingmaker claim now? Do you agree with my 267?

You make it sound like I've haven't given my opinion on this. Yes, I still see more good from this than bad. Meadow's only real point that I can find against kingmaker claiming is the fact that a dumb townie might be given that title.

Duder, Meadow's case against you please.