Giant Post
I apologize if this is out of order. I wrote this in several notepad documents while going through the thread.
1. Meadowsizzle (Sold2/Ryker)
2. Raziek
3. Marluxia_ (Shadow Moth/J)
4. Zεη
5. th3duder (th3kuzinator/Tom)
6. ForeverZero (frozenflame751/Overswarm)
7. Purple
8. Chaco
9. Beat!
10. Sworddancer.
11. Soupamario
12. vVv Chibosempai
13. -Vocal-
For those who have forgotten, I came in late; I wasn't able to participate in most of the early stages. Frozenflame is still absent, so you are and have always been playing with Overswarm on a different account. Maybe he'll come back later.
I normally do this kind of post on the start of Day 2, but I doubt I'd live to see tomorrow if I told Sworddancer "you'll see my stances later". Easier to make individual decisions when one person doesn't hold your fate in their hands.
Don't shoot me for this giant post, Sword
Don't expect posts like this in the future; I came in late so this is my overall catchup post now that I've got some info. I normally wait for flips, but, whatever.
To start off my massive D1 read, I'll start with my two initial town reads: Beat and th3duder. Those are the most important.
Unless otherwise noted, the quotes below are all from
Beat.
Cool.
Execute All Lurkers
imo
His opening post of the day. The following one confirms that this isn't a half-hearted decision; he's not joking. He actually wants lurkers executed, at least before others.
This is a very easy thing for scum to say, assuming all the scum players are active. That said, Beat... isn't active! He's barely posted; I came into the game halfway through and have more posts than him.
So at this point, we know that if Beat is Town then he's been busy. If he's been scum, he starts the game off saying "kill people doing what I'm about to do". I know Beat well enough to know that he would not do that.
Executing inactives sounds great.
As for your second question, Sword, I'm not very experienced.
Votecounts sounds unnecessary and I don't support it. The king should be able to see for himself what the majority wants, and he can just go against it anyway if he wants to.
This post, admittedly, did give me some pause.
"I'm not very experienced", from my perspective, is a lie. He's done moderately well at worst when playing in games I've seen, and had a star performance as my scummate in the past. He is a player that seems altogether "innocent" without much effort; seeing how the game reacts in the opposite merely to my
presence, he was an invaluable scummate and can be a strong force for town in endgame when louder voices aren't drowning him out.
But inexperienced? No, not at all. He was this humble when he was my scummate as well, in private, however; so I'm considering it a null point at the moment.
He says he doesn't want votecounts. Either way is fine with that; I personally prefer some sort of tracking system so we don't have to go back 40 pages in end game and reread to see where someone's stances are, but either way will be fine.
I want Soup to continue with his flavour posting. I found it entertaining.
I also think #134 is very wishy-washy and contains a lot of fluff.
Raz, if it's "probably better" if Soup were to stop with the flavour posting, why do you not care "personally"?
First direct interaction is with Raziek, referencing Razieks #134 argument about flavorspeak.
Completely worthless, all of this, but Beat shows some good questioning. Raziek's response is that he merely found it entertaining; normally I'd consider that a scummy response, but given the subject matter I'm forced to discard it as worthless.
Beat continues to harass Raziek a little bit for it. It reads genuine, if not worthless for our goals. It's more of a "who is right" argument rather than "is someone scummy" argument, which is an important distinction.
Instead of having kingmaker claim, just have everyone publicly claim who they want crowned before our Rabbit King executes someone. That way the KM can just check what the majority/people he or she trusts/whatever wants.
Beat makes his second game-flavor post, asking that everyone publicly say who they want crowned before someone is executed.
I personally consider this a bad idea.
So many walls ;_;
I won't have time to catch up until tomorrow. Bear with me. From Monday and onwards I will be super active and stuff.
A lie!
I'm here.
I'm reading.
I will post when I'm done.
Another lie! He didn't post for some time! But that's not really relevant in my opinion. Just seems Beat is busy.
K, I've no idea what to make of the MS vs duder discussion. They're both null to me.
I still think Raz could be scum, and I agree with Roxy about Soup throwing out town reads to left and right. He's probably scum as well.
@Marluxia Soup scum, Roxy null. Mb scum if soup town. I don't think they're scum together.
Sword, if you had to kill someone this instant, who would it be, and why?
Beat continues with a discussion on Raz, and puts pressure on Soup's town-happy demeanor and ties some strings together.
Then asks mod a poignant question.
I think Raz just took an opportunity to post a lot of fluff in a situation where it wasn't necessary, just to make it look like he was contributing. His stance on Soup's posting style was also very non-committing. It's not a very strong read, admittedly, but I'd like to think that it holds at least a little merit.
I never said MS and soup couldn't be scum buddies O_o.
Null leaning town on Zen. I like what I've seen so far.
This also gave me pause.
Continues with the Raz discussion, but hasn't really looked to glean more information; he just decided some time ago and has been pushing that cart since his opening posts. But then, he admits it isn't a strong read openly. Unpaused.
Beat said "mb scum if soup town, I don't think they're scum together" in his previous post. Said "I never said MS and soup couldn't be scum buddies" in his next.
Marluxia calls him out on it:
marluxia said:
What did you mean by this then Beat?
beat said:
That was my read on Roxy...
I don't know why Mb is Roxy, but situation disolved after that point.
As for Zen, the few posts he's made has been logical and explanatory (imo), and I agree with a lot of it. That's not necessarily a town tell, but there's not much to base a read on, and I at least don't feel any scum vibes.
Beat explains his other read on Zen clearly, hides nothing from town and receives little pressure back.
Well, he hasn't made very many posts at all. As I said, it's not a very strong read. I never said it was the scum tell of the decade or something, so idk how it can be reaching. All I said was that his posts gave me a slight scum read on him.
Further clarification on Zen.
@Marluxia
I don't have any scum reads other than Soup and Raz atm.
@duder
What's so non-scummy about those posts?
So far beat's reads have basically been Soup + Raz = possible scum, Zen = possible town, Roxy = mostly null, possible scum if Soup town.
There are several other players with very few posts, and very little activity (myself being one of them, can't deny that), yet MS is the only one you felt the need to call out. Why is that? Are all the other lurkers justified somehow?
Beat's first interaction with the King is an aggressive one! Calling sworddancer out for giving everyone (including Beat) a free pass on activity, but calling out MeadowSizzle's activity.
Starting to think that Roxy is town.
Chibo, opinion on Swords?
If Roxy is going more towards twon, Soup is leaning more towards scum.
Starts a line of questioning on the King.
And that's where it ends, 5 days ago.
I believe Beat has more or less been the most townie among us; his posting amount leaves much to be desired, but it is consistent even among his inactivity.
That read stays as is.
As for th3duder,he has 119 posts, well over Soupamario's 80 and Marluxia's 68. I'm not doing a post-by-post for him as that would be insane and unproductive.
All quotes from hereon are theduder unless otherwise noted.
I said it in BiM4 and I'll say it again.
Votecounts in games that don't warrant them are the dumbest idea this side of memphis. We don't have deadline nor do we need the town's majority to make any important decision so we don't need to bother with it. In that game in particular we had scum sneak by a situation which would have normally got him lynched because he was so vehemently supporting the implementation of votecounts that everyone thought he was too pro-town to be scum. It gives scum a chance to act like they want people leaving a permanent voting trail while in reality they can just use it to their advantage knowing that any of the dayvigs (king in this case) can choose someone completely irrelevant than who the wagon is on.
tl;dr its not necessary and we aren't using it.
He opens up the gate by saying votecounts in games taht don't use votes are worthless.
I'd like to note that the obvious connectino between scummates would be that they'd all say similar things. If th3duder flipped scum, you could say "he didn't want a votecount, so everyone else who didn't want a votecount would be scum and those who did would be town"; this would be a logical fallacy.
While it could be true if the mechanic was truly important, this could easily be an individual opinion from a scumteam nomatter who said it. If scum truly didn't care, it wouldn't matter what they said. So unless you can think of a reason why scum would want to actively AVOID votecounts or the like, this kind of stuff is mostly null, no matter who it is coming from.
im happy to oblige a full game. yellowed is essentially what i would do as king. i would suggest that, if we do use a voting system (and frankly it cannot be stopped; if i seem to disagree with my better half here, read on to the next quote section), do not fall into the pit of making this game rely TRULY on the voting system - you cannot, it is not there, you are just creating drama and null-tell tension that scum can use to pull the wool over their wolfpelt and over your eyes. a voting system can show who someone says they want the king to kill, but it can just as easily be said in conversation; so its neither a good idea nor a bad idea if used efficiently, but if used inefficiently it is definitely a bad idea.
yellowed text from sword said:
Note that (assuming we go down this path) I may not listin to the votecount if it's wrong.
This post I didn't like much.
Not having a voting system is one thing.
Not having the king LISTEN TO TOWN is another. Being the King for a day doesn't make you a superhero with awesome scum hunting abilities. If you disagree with town, that's fine; you've got the bullet. But that means you need to explain to town why.
Because otherwise, all you're doing is setting up a domino game.
"Swords, kill Soupa!"
Swords: "No, I won't kill Soupa!" *kills th3duder* *duder flips town*
New king: "I will kill swords for being anti town and killing th3duder even though we wanted Soup!"
That kind of stuff happens. Then after Swords dies, Soup would still die afterwards. You're putting in motion two, maybe three days worth of flips that are likely to be all town, assuming the original person going against town flips as such.
So... I don't like this post nor how it is phrased. It's okay for town to be liek "we want th3duder dead! Also beat but to a lesser extent!"and for the king to say "I like th3duder, imma kill beat". Situations like that are salvagable.
But directly saying "town, you are merely my advisors for I am king! I will discount all you say if I don't agree with it" seems sketchy and dangerous. We basically have a claimed vig coming up every day; you generally direct the claimed vig, partly for the reasons listed above.
@ForeverZero - the four of us all know you could easily prove the Rabbit King wrong with any number of gambits even though its an open setup. if you do try to prove him wrong, just make sure it skews the game heavily in town's favor
I was confused as to why he said "the four of us". Still am.
@duder could you explain that? O_o
Slight buddying vibe, but I don't care.
aw 2: not exactly. it remains to be seen what we will do if the king goes against the popular opinion, but remember that the only person who can policy lynch the king is the next day's king, and then he can't be king until the day after next. dont be blinded by tunneling; listen to arguments.
th3duder then earns back my trust from the prior post, where he says openly the king SHOULD listen to arguments openly and not tunnel.
It took you two paragraphs to say the above bolded sentence.
How is that not fluff?
So far th3duder is null and continues to be so. He's playing content police, but not giving out any reads of his own. Just calling people out for inane things around this post and further on.
Don't give me that.
It's not your posting style. I've seen you be plenty concise before.
Content police. Not what Raziek says, but how he says it. Easiest thing in the world to do, especially when th3duder is asked this:
purple said:
Also duder, probably kuz. Tell me in as little sentences how the vote system actually screwed town over.
And responds with this:
Hardly informative and easy to pick on. I dislike Duder's content police approach.
i just want to note that we should TAKE OUR TIME
The above quote is in response to Purple wanting to kill Soup. While I agree with the premise, I have to say again... this is all fluff.
Up to this point in the game, th3duder hasn't posted anything of importance.
His first "true content" in the game comes in an argument with soup:
soup said:
Old soup would be annoyed with beat easier but i do not see anything much wrong with beat and in fact like him.
That's your reasoning for thinking Beat is town?
Excuse me for calling bull****.
soup said:
No, my reasoning for beat town is the fact this play is reminding me of melee beat and old soup would be annoyed that he is only asking questions but i've seen beat town play where i completely wrong about him being scum.
The above exchange is a bit interesting, I think. If Soup flips scum there is no way in hell th3duder will flip scum. No way.
Its not that hard to figure out the pro to kingmaker-claiming like zen is suggesting
think about the role, its requirements, and what happens if he is killed
th3duder's first reference to Zen, a slight connection here but nothing solid. It really IS easy to figure out the pros to the kingmaker claiming; what's more interesting to me is that neither of them thought of the actual cons. But whatever.
Meadowsizzle comes into the game at this point, btw.
irst - that was my better half, he will have to answer
second - i agreed, up until JUST now. now im thinking about it more.
the kingmaker claiming would give us a clear, but all that accomplishes is having us NOT lynch the kingmaker. however, we gain that same advantage as long as the king gives his lynch target an adequate time to claim kingmaker/hero/villager, and there are also advantages for town to NOT having the kingmaker known when it comes to flips and claims.
Next thing of import with Duder, and one of the things that really stands out: Duder changed an irrelevant stance publicly.
That might sound odd, but the kingmaker claiming really isn't that big of a discussion. It's mostly just heavy opinions, it won't win or lose us the game either way. But duder thought about it and later changed his mind with no pressure on him to do so; scum don't do that.
Other than that though, it's still no clear stances really from theduder. Nothing concrete.
To make matters worse, Meadowsizzle, Soup and theduder get into a multipage argument about semantics that is totally asanine and ALSO irrelevant to anything important. You can read that in the meadowsizzle section.
Feel free not to answer either of those questions, Soup.
This is a bit later; it's a reference to Marluxia's:
Soupa, who don't you wanna see Swords lynch? Then tell me the person you are having the hardest time reading atm. Followed by, who you'd personally like to see as the next King?
I dislike this defense of Soup since I want Soup to get grilled...
But I really enjoy theduder's approach to questioning. Getting information is one thing, but the questions Marluxia asked here don't really DO anything but potentially cause trouble for soup. Stopping Soup from going down a path that would inevitably slit his own throat is a townie move.
His connection to Soup IS bothersome though. After a closer reread, theduder isn't looking as townie as he was earlier. This connection persists later:
Doubt Soup would say these as scum
That's post #466.
Meadowsizzle:
Alright, I have the password now.
We will refuse to answer to anyone who does not refer to us as Meredith Ruby Brandy Meadowsizzle III, Esq.
When (not if) we are given king, we will be shooting Forever Zero (assuming he is alive), no questions asked. If Sworddancer would kindly accomplish this task for us, then we will be super obv town and win the game.
Also, voting system be damned, I'm not keeping up with it. You can tell that we want to shoot F0.
Call me crazy, but I don't like this post. I hadn't posted yet at this point; I hadn't even read my role PM. Why MS wanted to shoot me I still don't know, but we definitely got off on the wrong foot here.
His "refusing to answer" thing also bugs me.
He does this for a decent portion of the game, controlling what is discussed by simply saying 'no, I won't answer that'. Scummy.
Questions meadowsizzle has dodged:
purple said:
Thoughts about yhe GAME ryker
(twice)
chibo said:
You really gonna do this?
chibo said:
yo why don't you put who you are in location like every other hydra
Everything in this post:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13043938#post13043938
Shoot Forever Zero then have the King Maker give us the gun. We will shoot the remaining scum and the game will end.
EBWOP: There are three scum. After we have ended the lives of two scum, they will then night kill us. Fortunately, we will have already discerned the identity of the third assassin and the Kingmaker shall give the gun to whoever we like the most and he will shoot the third assassin that we found, thus ending the game.
I dislike things like this. There's a reason vainglory had its own section of the deepest circle of hell in Dante's Inferno.
That's not flying, that's falling with style.
The BIGGEST reason not to vote for king is the roadmap it gives scum. You would vote for your biggest town read and let everyone and their mother know.
Sword, can you PLEASE shoot Forever Zero and end this bull**** phase.
If anyone hasn't noticed, I still hadn't posted yet. -_-;;
Meadow then posts stuff like this:
People who want to have the kingmaker claim are extremely dumb or scum.
People who want to vote so the kingmaker knows who we want to be king are pretty dumb or scum.
Having the kingmaker claim means that scum can continue to kill the kingmaker until it ends up on a townie they can control. It lets them pick who our kingmaker is and gives them a better shot at becoming king. Then the night before 3/4 man LyLo/MyLo, the scum kill the kingmaker and we go in with no clear. It can end up with a 50-50 between two kingmaker claimants, but that's not a bad position for scum in 3 man. Plus, if an obv town is alive at that point and gets it, the scum don't have to CC. It gives scum more control over the game and that heavily outweighs the advantages of taking one name out of the lynchpool. Yeah sure, if you're about to be shot, then claim it. Let scum fake claim and we'll out our kingmaker with a CC. Good trade. That's how the clear should come out. The next day the kingmaker should not claim if the original was night killed and scum should be back to square one minus one mate. There are too many people pushing this bull**** for them to all be scum, but there is definitely some scum on that movement. We're this much closer to finding Forever Zero's scummates.
Now the vote on who to make king thing is simply ********. I don't think it's more than a null tell for those involved. Vocal is a moron because it's obviously different than a normal votecount because you're not voting for a lynch, you're voting for who you trust. Yes, it allows a platform for town to direct who becomes King, but it also allows a platform for scum to manipulate that vote (like a vote to lynch). More importantly though, is that it gives scum an idea who they need to kill. The kingmaker sends in 2 choices and they know which of the popular opinion is town and which is scum and can night kill to make the crown end up where they want. In a town v. town scenario, they can also night kill selectively in order to end up with the most scum sympathetic king out of their options. Yes, this does not guarantee that the Kingmaker will act in such a predictable way, but if we're not taking the vote into account, then there is no reason to have the votecount unless you just want to give away freely the town's general consensus on who they trust.
At this point, our definite scum read is Forever Zero. Sword should shoot him now before he gets in the thread and is given a chance to pollute the minds of the weaker men in the peasantry.
Wall of irrelevant text followed by more scum reads on someone that hasn't posted yet (me!).
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13019705&postcount=262
I'm not quoting that post.
As I just demonstrated, Duder sure has a big problem with fluff, am I right? Course I am. Now then, I want you to take a peek in these collapse tags and see just how many posts th3duder has made that are nothing but null tells. This doesn't include fluff posted within any post with some sort of comment.
I have to admit... Meadowsizzle has a point with this. TheDuder DOES have mostly null tells; no concrete stances.
I'd like to note that others are doing the same thing, but the most obivous is th3duder by far, followed shortly by Meadow; Meadow has the +1 point of being the first to attack someone (th3duder) though. Meadow has claimed to have "scum reads", but none of them have really been serious; no cases have been made. Hollow fingers pointing at me, edgey comments towards vocal and whatnot, but nothing real until he starts his case on Duder.
tom said:
lol @ thinking you could bring me to boner town.
until you posted the collapse tag (post 263) simply reposting our posts and saying "look and find null tells... they're now scum tells!" (which is laughable in itself) and "he has contributed nothing in 16 posts!" (which is just a lie - for being 24 hours into a game i think we've contributed far more than enough), literally everything you quoted (post 262) was kuzzy talking, so you will have to wait for him to respond.
but that 263 is abysmal. and your attitude is terrible too, imho you aren't good enough to get away with that
th3duder's defense here is... shallow. While I agree that Ryker isn't good enough to get away with his attitude, I'm gonna have to agree with the concept behind "all these null tells are now scum tells". When someone posts nothing but null, it's generally not by action.
theduder said:
@Raziek and Soup: Read on sizzle.
Th3Duder takes a break in his argumentation to ask questions...
You know, you've been going to respond to 262 since 8:42 this morning and you STILL haven't gotten to it. All you've done is take pot shots at it and attempt to redirect the conversation. Hell, you called it reaching when I specifically explained that Soup wasn't reaching for saying the same exact thing.
Nice try, but I'm going to sink you like the Bismark.
Yes, I'm implying that you are Nazis.
Your response thus far has been COMPLETELY bull****. Let me get to those while you actually sit down and back up your assertions about our 262. DO THAT before you try and redirect the argument again.
Meadow notices his multiple deflections and doesn't like it. Doesn't mean much more than meadow is paying attention and has his teeth into th3duder.
He even has this giant post:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13022335&postcount=291
th3duder said:
Well now don't you really look like an idiot?
Its been a little over 12 hours since you posted the original case. Funny you're already trying to pin me for avoiding a response for such a short interval. Keep reaching bro.
Oh and I have things to do during the day, sorry I didn't immediately drop everything I was doing to take hours out of my day to respond to that wall of incandescent misinterpretation. Plus the other two one-liners were done by Tom while I was away from my computer.
12 hours in a game with no deadlines and he's already calling me out for inactivity.
This is something that stands out to me. Meadow calling th3duder out for inactivity would be silly, sicne duder has been active. Meadow was actually calling him out for deflecting and not answering the question, which he wasn't doing.
To which th3duder "deflects". >_>
th3duder said:
Tom again: @mod: shouldnt Forever Zero have a prod by now, please? I've seen at least OS post since the game started, probably FF too.
Just a side note: if th3duder flips scum, you know I'm not scum because he would have just sent me a PM :D
The back and forth between th3duder and Meadow goes on for several pages and I'm just going to stop with that now. It's all mostly pointless and Swords does a god job with this post:
Swords said:
Here, MS did not address any of Duder’s defense at all. Instead, he simply dropped a blanket statement on it. Duder did actually bring up accurate points to his defense. MS has stated that Duder’s post is simply a “no u.” Now, Duder did point out contradictions in MS’s post, but that was because he was defending against MS’s case. Duder’s defense post is in no way an OMGUS like MS implies it is. If someone attacks you with faulty logic, then pointing out the faulty logic is not a simple OMGUS. It’s a simple to defense.
MS has stated that he does not want to trade walls. Okay, fine, but that doesn’t mean you can just dismiss the entire rebuttal to your own case with a blanket term, especially when that’s not the case. Couldn’t MS at least address just the parts he found relevant at the very least?
MS has not followed up on his oringal case against Duder, instead chosing to focus on more shallow things. Ever since this post, the quality of MS’s accusations has fallen.
For example, I agree with Duder that MS has been reaching in several instances. At one point, MS accuses Duder of fluffing in a hypocritical manner (this is after Duder attacked Raz for fluffing). However, while it is true that several of Duder's post where fluffy useless posts, it is also true that much more of his post contain relevant content in them. Fluffing is only relevant when someone is almost ONLY posting fluff. Duder has most certainly not done that, so calling him out on it is folly.
Two other points that I felt was reaching on MS's behalf are his points about the hydra logs and his timing on posting. Unless the hydra logs are obviously being faked, then the existence of them should be treated as null. If I'm understanding correctly, MS thinks they are being faked due to the last bits of the hydra logs, where Kuz and Tom talk about the hydra logs. MS states that he thinks Duder is fishing for town cred. This may be true, but it also might not be. It's WIFOM, it's an unprovable accusations, and it's a null tell. It should be treated as such.
The other point was MS pointing out Duder's somewhat slow reactions, accusing him of delaying his response (or at least implying it). Again an unprovable accusations, and thus a null tell. MS should not be using this reasoning to incriminate Duder.
Now, all this said, I agree that MS oringal case against Duder had merit, because I felt that Duder’s accustions against Raz were weak and shallow (accusations of someone fluffing so early seems weak and shallow to me).
So yeah, my two cents on this situation.
Really, we need feedback from others. I feel like the majority of players in this game has even commented on really anything yet.
th3Duder is deflecting and posting a lot of fluff and being very defensive, Meadow is being incredibly aggressive and reachy. He picked hte conclusion (duder = scum) before he decided to get evidence.
This is where I come in, btw.
I then post some of my thoughts; I hadn't read as closely as I have now by that point, but it still perturbs me that MeadowSizzle decided to argue with one strong hydra and blindly call the other strong hydra scum even when they hadn't posted yet.
SWORDS READS:
sword said:
Also updates on my reads:
Soup town
Purple/Duder slight town
MS/Vocal null
Chibo/J slight scum
everyone else null due to inactivity
I disagree with his Soup read, and would put him in the "scum" category. I'd put both chibo and J in "null" I think.
Duder in a heartbeat.
Because Duder is scum and I like poking Frozenflame.
I will hold you to that read later on.
This in response to 1) who would you kill if you were king, duder or myself and 2) why focus on me / duder.
I don't know why he thinks he's "poking frozenflame" or why that would be town behavior, but whatever.
and back to duder for a moment, a bit after this he's now getting into another argument with Marluxia, starting around #567 >_<
Soup:
Your majesty, lord Dancing of swords, i have brought of message to you.
It is decreed that you, lord swords, shall decide who we shall lynch, but the heiarchy of Soup & Mario's believe that your execution be used to just and fair, and naught on true greed, for if so we shall turn a blind eye on you.
It has 5 laws in fine print.
1. Doth lynch inactives if inactive doth refuse to respond, but only in drastic measures.
2. Listen to the town creed, they are your shepard in this battle, if you were to cast a black cloak on us all such as executing without our consent, you shall be damned.
3. Soup & Mario is your humblest servant, but nay a dog, you may use him freely, but do not try to pet him.
4.Listen to th3duder, he is a smart knave.
5. i demand soup to my cabbage each night, if i do not get these rewards then i shall create a mob.
Are we clear, Lord sword?
This is annoying. It basically says "listen to town on the king shot and lynch inactives"
He continues to post fluff like this for quite some time, and harasses Marluxia repeatedly about it under the pretense that Marluxia is wanting Soup dead for flavor introduction. Marluxia's entire response is "What?" and "Huh?" over several posts.
These kinds of "waste of time" argument catch my attention and I dislike them.
Seriously wow this goes on for some time. Soupa is also deliberately trying to get a rise out of Marluxia.
When people start saying "WTF, Soup?" he posts this:
Are you ready for it, J? are you ready for it? ready?
Reactions.
I'm good you being town from the interaction we had.
Soup gives his first actual town read on Marluxia.
I dislike Soup's play so far.
His town reads are Beat and Marluxia.
Raz why are you so quick to apologize?
This is the beginning of what I call "loaded questioning". This is when Soup will ask a question without a real reason, but his intentions are obvious.
Allow me to rephrase:
Old soup would be annoyed with beat easier but i do not see anything much wrong with beat and in fact like him.
Raziek is scummy, he was quick to apologize over his own opinion and is over-compensating things.
This is a few posts later; Soupa is transparent as glass with his reads. I think it is safe to make some assumptions off his posts.
This starts an argument with th3duder that I referenced earlier.
So far up to this game, Soup's been unhelpful and hasn't really brought up much. Just stirred trouble.
Soup's "big post" comes next:
Raziek didn't have to use that many words to explain his thoughts on me v. J, and i was agreeing with duder thinking "man, that's alot of fluff for no reason" but then the next sequences of events happen.
He goes on to quote the exchange between beat/raziek that is kind of worthless.
I don't like this more, duder completely ignores the substance of the post and just calls it fluff, while he's right that it is a bit fluffy words wise, the message is there, i feel duder is just looking for something that isn't there and already egging on Raziek as beat pressures him.
He's right on this, kind of. Duder was picking on Raziek for no reason. Not necessarily scummy of duder, just dumb. Kind of like Soupa doing the same thing with Marluxia earlier; just dumb.
There's a definite defense of Raziek in here and some condemnation of theduder, but still not much to go off of.
Soup then gets into heavy arguments with theduder later over... nothing. Mostly the Raziek stuff and semantics.
Then th3duder and Meadow get into it, and duder asks Soup for his read on sizzle:
Null-leaning town, I like that he sees what i see, but it's sort of a add-on, and i guess i'm fine with that, however, all you do is refute stand points against you as putting null-tells into scum-tells, why is it a null-tell? why wasn't what raziek did a null-tell? you certaintly didn't treat it that way and i'm not going to either. same goes with just saying it's reaching, not liking it, duder.
I agree with this post for the most part, but Soup just seems to lack teeth.
If i have one thing to say, i don't like the fact duder did indeed post his logs, then Ryker incriminating him for doing so, Ryker even goes one step further by using outside of game meta against him, and that's really pushing it for a case.
Interesting post, not much to note.
I'm good calling duder town for these last couple of posts, I also re-thought the raziek situation and see it more town motive besides the little areas that bug me, I also feel that duder is legitimately concerned with little things (hi kuz) and I like that.
I'm also leaning town on ms, I feel the attack is shallow and a giant reach-fest, but this is something I can see ryker doing.
That doesn't mean I condone it, there was some serious tunnel vision on duder and ryker's outbursts annoy me.
Vocal is reading newtown, or perhaps novice town, I feel he is modest and generally concerned on points as he shows attempt to get his two cents out there. I don't his sidelining, but it's not much of an issue.
Purple is town looking too.
Rest of my reads haven't changed.
I'm gonna have to agree with purple here and say "Buh?" to this. Soup going out of his way to take both sides of the fence throughout the game is pretty scummy imo.
But I already talked about this:
ForeverZero said:
Is there any particular reason your town reads happen to be listed here in what is almost the exact order of most posts, from the top down?
Seems incredibly opportunistic.
I wanted to know more...
His ultimate response:
soupa said:
@f0 if someone isn't here, I can't get a read on them, simple as that.
I'm reading him as newtown, so the objective shouldn't be that sidelining is bad, I tended to sideline my first game.
I disagree with this still. Everyone else had plenty of reads, they had stances.
But what's more is that after attacking Soup for something as obvious as I did...
@purple
There's a plethora of inactives, I think Chibo is dumbtown, beat looks okay still, but f0 is a case of curiosity.
I don't like his point with me only having actives as town, because that's not the full story, it depends what you are posting, activity doesn't sell me in full. but of course it is harder to get reads on inactives.
I get stuff like that. By putting my attention on Soup, I've suddenly become of interest?
I take him on in this post:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13036381&postcount=448
His lack of anything but town reads and his inherent defensiveness combined with a complete lack of backbone make Soup my strongest scum read.
@f0
I'm not judging to the kinder of how much you post, its what you are posting, like I said.
The same goes for you, I feel the point is mundane, you're judging me on assumption that My reads are coming from activity, it's ignoring what I'm doing and twisting it to another point, the same goes with your latest post, you twist the point and slam it, and then, you say "eh well I still think you're town, but I'm just warning you."
Who's the shallow one here?
Anyways, forget the maybe and make it into to yes, sure, this is knee-jerk, but I don't care.
His further kneejerk reaction and his admittance that "yes this is OMGUS" doesn't help his case much.
I ask him some pointed questions such as "explain why your town reads are who they are".
soup said:
Explained my town reads, they're around somewhere.
Yeah, I just read the thread from start to finish. Explain your town reads, I must have missed them.
I also asked for him to list two people, other than himself and myself, that he'd kill if he could.
I'd kill ms, tentatively, I have him as null leaning town but he looks like a wild card and someone I wouldn't want king.
He responds with only one person, the easiest person in the world to choose to kill as he is so unpopular at that time in the game, and STILL is using on-the-fence reasoning!
F0, ill get to your question on friday when I'm back at My dads and I can sit down and type for once.
Another thing, I want to like you, f0, but I'm not sure if I can trust you, your actions are shady and you only seem to comment on things then leave an ominous vibe to it, such as the ultimatum pointed out by duder.
But, I feel it will have some point later in time, or I hope it will.
And he's even on the fence about his one scum read, who happens to be the only guy who targets him -_-;;
Alright i haven't missed as much as i thought i have, good.
anyways, i think your Zen arguement is just dumb, because both are just points that can only be seen by the other side, basically what the Duder v. MS thing boiled down, just without the tunnel vision, i feel that Zen is exercising his scum-read on you but the negation you give off doesn't tell me much, it's like when you try to feed a five year old.
just saying.
Inactives need more of a look, to be honest.
This is later in the game, slight defense of Zen by Soup.
Marluxia:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13032246&postcount=379
Marluxia's first real "entrance" to the game where it's not just random picking on other players or others picking on Marluxia.
From this point on, we get a lot of posts like that:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13035665&postcount=401
Large, question based posts that don't give many of Marluxia's stances; they merely imply a stance. Dangerous.
However it's been proven that th3duder's point on him fluff posting was reaching.
What is there to like from some like Zen thus far?
But we also get a spattering of posts like this, which rectify that issue.
Aaaaaaand then we get **** like this:
Whoever said I was attacking Zen because he attacked me? (which he really hasn't at all)
Which several clouds my thoughts on what Marluxia's reads are. Marluxia has been actively scumhunting and gathering information, but I don't know the
results of it from her posts. I'd like a flat out list from Marluxia.
Marluxia gets into an argument with theduder (he does that a lot it seems) about Soup, referenced earlier, but for the most part Marluxia is almost exclusively asking questions rather than answering them or taking clear stances.
I'd like to see Marluxia be much, much clearer in stances in the future, starting with a list. After rereading I'm not sure in the slightest where Marluxia stands. All Marluxia has done is deny, deny, deny; just straight up defiance when it comes to arguments. The "Did I REALLY say that? I didn't ACTUALLY say that..." kind of stuff.
I previously was of the mind that Marluxia was attacking players, but I recant that statement; it's more harmless questioning. Just information mining.
Purple:
Purple is.... hard to read.
Soups just playing nice all day. King swords, please kill him
This is the first thing that really stood out to me all game. The rest is all just passing text up to this point (post #151).
But wanting to kill Soup due to "playing nice all day" this early is difficult to swallow, but doesn't make him scum. Just something that caught my attention. There is a connection between those two players here, early on.
This is something repeated, btw; he's chastised a bit by th3duder before it, saying we should take our time, but continues to emphasize that we should kill Soup.
Oh, no one is even mad. You have a hard time noting emotions on the internet raziek.
Also don't be dumb, soup calling everyone and their mother town is enough its reason for me to think he should die, you got a reason to think other wise playa
Purple is still going towards Soup. I don't know about Soup calling everyone Town. Purple sure hasn't let up though.
Ryker is scum, he's posting too much. We done here?
This is the next post by purple of interest. His current "scum list" is Soup and MeadowSizzle. I dislike his consistent lack of reasoning, but enjoy his clear stances.
I also feel like sizzle is trying to control people here and there which his stupid requests of people.
He's nothing if not simple.
I was serious about soup being scum, I really didn't like him throwing out town reads constantly. Not just null reads, town reads. I never do like that personally.
Soup, with your town reads and including yourself there aren't many town left, scum picks please
His first deviation isn't for some time:
I got nothing on vocal, nothing sticks out for me. I like Zen. My scum pick would be ms, but I'm bias to obnoxious playstyles
Which isn't much of a deviation. :B
How about checking the thread?
I'm too lazy to repeat, and really, I shouldn't have to
The most recent post, I'd like to point out, is not a good one from Purple.
The whole "check teh thread" response to "waht is the case" isn't a good response, especially when Purple posts only single line posts.
Zen:
This is in relation to Beat's "execute all lurkers" thing. Null.
It is then immediately followed by this:
What do people think about Kingmaker claiming?
This is pretty stupid, imo, for reasons stated earlier in the game. Primarily the fact that it's one less shot left to chance for the hero, who we want to keep. That said, this isn't something I'd expect from scumZen since it leaves him so open. This is the kind of opinionated thing a King could easily kill you off for.
But that's just Meta.
I'd like to see other's thoughts first.
Zen refuses to say his thoughts until others post them on the KMaker claiming ish.
This is complete nonsense. Scum cannot control who is King Maker. It's completely random. This for one is a benefit, as someone who was suspicious previously could be cleared instantly. Your point about Vocal and Sword is set up in a way just to support your argument. TownVocal would have just as much chance as becoming KM as any othet town member, and ScumSword would not have control over who Vocal picks as king. Just because Vocal stated that he would be fine with Sword as king again doesn't say anything about whether he'd actually pick him to be king.
Zen's quotes have been mostly things like this; he's playing a lot like theduder, just with less fluff posts and no exploding arguments.
In response to Duder saying "what do you think Marluxia is", and Zen's only real "read" taht has been posted thus far. o_O
At this point he gets into an argument with Marluxia starting aroudn post #540.
Raziek:
Soup v J?
Just seems like a dumb argument. J doesn't want Soup posting in flavour-speak for whatever reason. I'm not seeing where any "case" came in, though, so in that regard I'm agreeing with J. Not really seeing what the point of that "conflict" was at all.
As for whether or not I think Soup should change his posting style, I don't particularly care. I have no problem actually reading and understanding it, but I can see how he could use it to fluff his posts up. It'd probably be better if he stopped, but I don't PERSONALLY care.
I'd normally say "+1 connection to Raziek and Marluxia", but... I agree completely. Soup was being stupid and wasting time trying to get a rise out of J.
You're twisting my words.
Finding it entertaining doesn't imply I would want him to continue, because I understand it has the POTENTIAL to be a detriment to the game.
When I say I don't "PERSONALLY care", I mean that I have no major stake in either result, so I don't particularly care whether he continues or stops.
If he DOES start using it simply to post fluff, I'll call him out on it, but I don't have a problem with it if it isn't abused.
This post seems solid to me.
Raziek then gets thrown into a ****storm for apologizing o_o
This is nonsense.
I made ONE post to that effect because Duder was annoyed that I clarified, DESPITE the fact that I had given the concise answer in the first sentence.
From all this... still null on Raziek. He was an easy target for a bit, which puts the spotlight on those chastising him, but it's mostly just people being bored with nothing else to comment on.
purple said:
Because I'm too lazy to reread fluff. Raz who are you referring to wanting killed?
Raziek's first big thing!
Raziek wants Purple shot. Purple wants Soup shot. Soup wants Raziek shot.
That isn't what I'd call "coincidence". I disagree completely with the notion that a circular chain like that is TvTvT, given that every single on of them has little to go off of. The one with the best argument in my opinion is Purple, who wants Soup dead.
Ok, life hit me like a ton of bricks. Namely work.
I'm mostly caught up, but I'm having trouble with where to jump back in, here.
Does anyone have specific questions for me? I realize my inactivity doesn't shine well on me, but I need money. :x
Gonna try to give this one a more thorough re-read a bit later, but for now I'm just trying to get back in.
His most recent post. He's just null all around. Even if he was scum, he hasn't been doing anything.
Vocal:
Vocal comes in with nothing important. Thoughts on voting and kingmaker claiming. Asks Chibo about Raziek being picked on. His entire first post is basically hollow.
His first "blunder" is this:
Voting for someone not in the game?
FoS @ Marluxia_
Zεη, your thoughts?
And so you'll let the rest of town do the work for you.
HANG THIS WOMAN NOW
In other news, I don't think voting on the next king is a good idea. I'm not opposed to people giving their opinions, but at the end of the day I'd rather myself be king more than anyone else (who is more trustworthy?) and it feels odd to vote on giving that power to someone else.
Both of the above at Marluxia...
but turns out to be this dumb stuff:
Zen isn't in the game. Zεη is. Just RVS shenanigans and rabble rousin
-__________-;;
Everyone likes to pick on Marluxia and Raziek this game.
I'm going to let people know my town reads anyways so...hrm? I also don't see how that's any different from a votecount in an ordinary game.
I don't know who to like here yet. Someone do something scummy already. How about we lynch Meadowsizzle so we don't have to deal with any more of the "Something Other Something III" rubbish - yea, that sounds good. Swords, my liege, your approval?
I'm also not used to playing with hydras, but I suppose I'll adjust.
While I agree that MeadowSizzle would be more fun if he was dead, I have to admit this post is, again, worthless. It brings nothing to the table.
This is a common theme with Vocal.I'm starting to smell something with him.
At your first paragraph, I sort of disagree. Nothing thus far has given me reason to suspect anyone; all I see is null tells all around. I don't claim to be the best at day 1 scum hunting, but nothing caught my eye - til now, but I'll get to that in a moment.
My read on Chibo is null, same as my read on (nearly) everyone. His comment at the start of the day about no one dying means nothing. His catchup post asked some questions, and while there's not really anything too strong to comment on at this point it was at least encouraging activity. His last couple posts have been about hydra info, andare meaningless as far as scum tells go.
Moving on, my sole suspicion as of the moment is you. You ask me if I still hold the same opinion I did before now that your other half has explained his new stance, yet his new stance is (correct me if I'm wrong) identical to the stance I've had since the beginning. One of the nuggets of knowledge I've picked up in my games so far is that scum tend to skim more than town, which would explain you not knowing my position well. It's not strong, but it's rare for me to get a strong read on the first day unless someone acts in an extremely scummy manner; anyone who's played with me before can lend credence to that.
If I had to paint a color, it'd be grey. Nothing but grey.
His "sole suspicion" at the moment is theduder, who happens to be the only person asking him questions. This is not good for Vocal.
Meadowsizzle is cool in my book. Not firm forever, but firm enough for now. I don't think the crusade on duder will amount to much pressure in that directiong, but that's beside the point. Still not using the title, but I'm alright with him living today.
But, he continues with that line of thought and attaches himself a bit to Meadow.
Vocal then kicks his town game into gear here:
I also agree with the rest of Soupa's sentiments. I'd like the attention to shift to players we haven't heard as much from.
@Raziek and Zen: Following the exchange of the past couple pages, do you have any new scum or town tells? Do you find anything suspicious or noteworthy?
@Chaco: You said you were catching up but (unless I missed it yesterday) haven't said much. What are your thoughts on the game so far?
@Chibo: If you had to send someone to the gallows right now, who would it be and why? (Not a loaded question, just wondering if you have any thoughts.)
And especially @ForeverZero: Where the heck are you? I don't remember seeing a notice that you'd both be v/la so it's concerning that you have no presence in this game.
He starts actively asking questions! :D
For the most part Vocal has stayed on the sidelines. I smelled him as an indie pretty fast. His response to me claiming he was on the sidelines:
On another note, I also find it difficult to form a strong read when the majority of town has been more or less absent for most of the game, which is why I only have tentative thoughts to throw out for the time being.
Is that he was on the sidelines!
Vocal needs to take a more active approach tomorrow. I still smell an indie.
Long story short:
Scummy
Null
Town
Slight Town
Indie
1.
Meadowsizzle (Sold2/Ryker)
2. Raziek
3. Marluxia_ (Shadow Moth/J)
4. Zεη
5.
th3duder (th3kuzinator/Tom)
6.
ForeverZero (frozenflame751/Overswarm)
7.
Purple
8. Chaco
9.
Beat!
10. Sworddancer.
11.
Soupamario
12. vVv Chibosempai
13.
-Vocal-
I've liked some of what I've seen from Sworddancer but, honestly, I can't read him while he holds the bullets.
Zen's content has been good but his activity has been lacking. I'd like to see him post more often before making a judgement call; he's only had a few connections all game.
Marluxia's content has been mostly questions and needs to be more direct stuff.
Raziek has been completely inactive and Chibo has been completely inactive. Chaco is TOTALLY inactive as in nonexistant. I don't think I saw more than one or two posts from him.
If I was king and was going to shoot someone, I'd probably shoot one of Soup, Meadow, Chaco, Chibo, or Raziek. The first two for scummy-esque behavior, the latter 3 for inactivity.
If I had to narrow it down, I probably wouldn't shoot Meadow toDay. While Meadow has been playing anti-town and keeps going into inactivity, we'll have time read Meadow more; killing Meadow would help us learn anything. Killing Soup, on the other hand, will help us learn quite a bit... especially about theduder, who I'd really like to learn more about.
If I had to pick an inactive to kill I'd choose Chaco because God have mercy on the soul of the person that replaces into this game.
To anyone who read all the way through:
Your reward!
