The First Party general support thread

[GoodGrief741]

Really? Hm, that's interesting. Could you explain what you mean a bit more? At this point in Smash's life, Nintendo was still relying on first parties. Sure, everybody loved Sonic and Snake from Brawl, but I thought there was a great amount of third party to go with the first party. I don't remember hear a complaint about "too much first party", but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

No, what I meant was that with Smash 4 there were lots of complaints that nearly all of the first party newcomers (iirc all except Duck Hunt) were relevant and there were accusations of Smash being turned into just an advertising machine for Nintendo's latest projects and ongoing franchises (something that certainly wasn't helped by Corrin and Bayonetta's inclusions in DLC). By the time Ultimate was announced I saw many people bemoaning how only relevant characters had a chance to show up (which was pretty much obliterated with Chrom-Dark Samus-K. Rool).

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Alright, let's do this.

Thank you, I strive to be dominant ya know?

Wasn’t originally gonna but if I really have to...

._. strong start.

This, you can’t dictate if a character can be a good playable character just because you don’t see their potential, if Sakurai can make them work then that’s that and imo they could have her use the Minis from MvDK and have her use items like her handbag or parasol for her moveset, I feel she can work.

Okay, so for context, I say Pauline is very relevant. Is she relevant? Yes she is. Do I personally want her in the game? No I do not. While she could work as a character, I personally would not like her in. This is simply an example where I show that my personal opinions differ greatly from the list of relevant characters that I made. This needs to be so crystal clear so that I can talk about the next points.

So out of the given list, 10 were notable and aren't in Smash. Do I want them all? No

My opinion on Pauline is nothing more than that; an opinion. I wanted to show that the list itself did not account for likelihood, or what Nintendo will add next, or anything of the sort. It was just a list of characters that are notable, and characters that are not. My opinions differ greatly from it. So, it has no bearing the logic of my claim, as it is a side opinion stated as an example.

While this is kinda true, Smash itself is not a measure for relevancy, rather the game’s other characters appear in are used for that, I love Viridi and she’s the best choice for a KI rep but I cannot see her unless she has another game.

That's the thing; Kid Icarus is not a relevant. It was even brought up in a case against mine (sorry GoodGrief):

or Pit

that Pit was not iconic at the time of his inclusion in Smash. Smash itself IS a measure for relevancy. Super Smash Bros Brawl has sold 13.3 million units, Smash 4 3DS has sold 9.52 million units, Smash 4 Wii U has sold 5.36 million units, and Smash Ultimate has sold 14.73 million units. Now, Kid Icarus: Uprising was a breakout success compared to the prior two games in the series, and can we really deny the impact that Pit's inclusion in Brawl had for the series? But even with the extreme boost in popularity it received due to the relevance Smash Bros Brawl gave the character, it still only sold 1.18 million units. Now, let's say that 1 in 25 players who played Smash 4 or Ultimate discovered Palutena's Guidance. That's a decently small proportion, and that would put us at 1.18 million players who discovered Palutena's Guidance. From there, we can say that there were just as many people who learned about Viridi through Smash that learned about it by played Uprising. So when the crossover is more popular than the source games, Smash DOES become a measure for relevancy. Ice Climbers is known from Smash.

However, I think I misinterpreted your point, given your final statement. However, if we agree on Viridi being the best pick due, even if it's for different reasons, then I'm not sure how your logic is correct and mine is flawed.

And yet they got in Smash before Paper Mario did, see where your argument comes down here?

This quote is taken out of context. I said that Paper Mario was very relevant and should have already been in the game, while Daroach was not relevant. I then made a comparison that Paper Mario was far more relevant than Banjo, and Banjo actually got in, so Paper Mario should as well. But I think I said something about the sheer popularity of Banjo is what carried him, and that Banjo probably would have failed my criteria for recency or something like that. But that isn't my job to quote, as I'm simply defending my case that I stated earlier. You also shouldn't be condescending when your misinterpreting my words.

I don’t really understand this... Golden Sun is a cult classic RPG series whereas Geno is a one-off obscure side character from an RPG made over two decades ago, I feel like Isaac is more well-known outside of Smash circles but tbh that isn’t really saying much...

Yup, now this is valid criticism. Probably should have equated Isaac's and Geno's relevancy. However, you're using "cult-classic" as a good term, but in actually, characters cannot get in based on cult-followings alone. Banjo had a lot of things going for him at least. Geno is in the same boat as Isaac. I simply here more talk about Geno outside of this forum.

Geno inclusion is more meme-y as I've found, and therefore more spreadable. But this is subjective, and I had the hardest time with this part of the list. However, I think I'll move Isaac out of the red.

Elma’s last game was almost half a decade ago, she made an appearance in Xenoblade 2 and was a Smash Spirit and that’s it.

Fiora however will appear next year in the Xenoblade 1 remake and she also appeared in Project X Zone 2 beforehand, in addition to her appearance in Xenoblade 2 and her making a cameo in Smash’s base game.

I wouldn’t mind Elma at all, she’s cool and I loved her as a character, just thinking about things logistically I see Fiora beforehand is all.

Once again, we're entering the realm of subjective. Fiora is still less relevant, as they aren't even the main character of the only game they appeared in. I don't really have an opinion myself on the two, but Elma is listed as the "She is the central protagonist of the main story." according to the Xenoblade wikia.

The thing with Kamek though is that he’s a minor character outside of the Yoshi’s Island games and usually just appears as a segue for boss or level transitions, Takamaru however is a main character and while he’s more obscure, Smash does tend to focus on heroes and leads first and foremost and additionally he has made a small resurgence to the point where Sakurai has considered him.

In hindsight however a better comparison would’ve been Tom Nook, one of the faces of Animal Crossing and will be relevant because of him being front-and-center in New Horizons, so I’m willing to disregard the Takamaru thing in his favor.

Not just Yoshi's Island, but Woolly and Crafted World. I wouldn't so hastily disregard a full spinoff series as large as Yoshi, especially with the new entry on the Switch.

Okay. I am very willing to negotiate Tom Nook's relevance. Nook may be important to Animal Crossing, but is he really a gaming icon? Would a casual player be able to have a list of 10 Animal Crossing animals and be able to point out Tom Nook? They could point out Kamek, and heck, they could point out Takamaru. But just like Pokemon, and Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing has a surplus of characters where the characters are not notable individually, but are notable as a species of characters. They all have the same speaking mannerisms, all are humanoid animals, etc. We don't buy Animal Crossing games to have Tom Nook in them, but to have the Animal Crossing folk and villagers in them. However, I am aware of Tom Nook's presence in the series, and will consider moving them up as well.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Sure, Geno is popular here too. However, Geno is also popular outside of SB as well (as far as I'm aware),

Oh yes, I did make note of that.

 

[NintenZ]

._. strong start.

...it wasn’t meant to be taken super seriously.

I have a very dry sense of humor.

Okay, so for context, I say Pauline is very relevant. Is she relevant? Yes she is. Do I personally want her in the game? No I do not. While she could work as a character, I personally would not like her in. This is simply an example where I show that my personal opinions differ greatly from the list of relevant characters that I made. This needs to be so crystal clear so that I can talk about the next points.

Okay that’s fine then, I thought you were talking about her actual baring but alright then.

that Pit was not iconic at the time of his inclusion in Smash. Smash itself IS a measure for relevancy. Super Smash Bros Brawl has sold 13.3 million units, Smash 4 3DS has sold 9.52 million units, Smash 4 Wii U has sold 5.36 million units, and Smash Ultimate has sold 14.73 million units. Now, Kid Icarus: Uprising was a breakout success compared to the prior two games in the series, and can we really deny the impact that Pit's inclusion in Brawl had for the series? But even with the extreme boost in popularity it received due to the relevance Smash Bros Brawl gave the character, it still only sold 1.18 million units. Now, let's say that 1 in 25 players who played Smash 4 or Ultimate discovered Palutena's Guidance. That's a decently small proportion, and that would put us at 1.18 million players who discovered Palutena's Guidance. From there, we can say that there were just as many people who learned about Viridi through Smash that learned about it by played Uprising. So when the crossover is more popular than the source games, Smash DOES become a measure for relevancy. Ice Climbers is known from Smash.

However, I think I misinterpreted your point, given your final statement. However, if we agree on Viridi being the best pick due, even if it's for different reasons, then I'm not sure how your logic is correct and mine is flawed.

I... Wasn’t referring to that part, I was saying that Smash appearances themselves don’t factor into relevancy, outside of that Viridi has been currently shown to be, as of Uprising, to be the third most important character outside of Pit and Palutena, and since Smash follows Uprising’s continuity it makes sense for her to be the next one whenever the next game may be.

This quote is taken out of context. I said that Paper Mario was very relevant and should have already been in the game, while Daroach was not relevant. I then made a comparison that Paper Mario was far more relevant than Banjo, and Banjo actually got in, so Paper Mario should as well. But I think I said something about the sheer popularity of Banjo is what carried him, and that Banjo probably would have failed my criteria for recency or something like that. But that isn't my job to quote, as I'm simply defending my case that I stated earlier. You also shouldn't be condescending when your misinterpreting my words.

It wasn’t really meant to be condescending just saying the argument falls apart when you compare one character to another character who’s already in as if they aren’t already in.

Yup, now this is valid criticism. Probably should have equated Isaac's and Geno's relevancy. However, you're using "cult-classic" as a good term, but in actually, characters cannot get in based on cult-followings alone. Banjo had a lot of things going for him at least. Geno is in the same boat as Isaac. I simply here more talk about Geno outside of this forum.
Geno inclusion is more meme-y as I've found, and therefore more spreadable. But this is subjective, and I had the hardest time with this part of the list. However, I think I'll move Isaac out of the red.

I mean yeah Geno is more talked about in Smash circles, but I was saying in general Isaac is probably less obscure to a more broad audience.

Once again, we're entering the realm of subjective. Fiora is still less relevant, as they aren't even the main character of the only game they appeared in.

I mean for starters that wouldn’t make her less relevant since she’s literally in a game coming next year, and for another she’s the deturotagonist of the first game, in fact it’s debated on with the fandom if she’s a shared protagonist or not but you could even make the case for her but that involves spoilers.

Also she appears outside the first game, Project X Zone 2, Xenoblade 2, and Xenoblade X as an option for the avatar.

I don't really have an opinion myself on the two, but Elma is listed as the "She is the central protagonist of the main story." according to the Xenoblade wikia.

I mean you’re right on that ( although some may argue Cross is as well) but unless X gets a Switch port or sequel soon I can’t see Elma over other Xenoblade options, she seems like the least likely to me with Rex and Pyra being the most likely.

Not just Yoshi's Island, but Woolly and Crafted World. I wouldn't so hastily disregard a full spinoff series as large as Yoshi, especially with the new entry on the Switch.

Wouldn’t really call Yoshi “large”, that’s stretching it.

Okay. I am very willing to negotiate Tom Nook's relevance. Nook may be important to Animal Crossing, but is he really a gaming icon? Would a casual player be able to have a list of 10 Animal Crossing animals and be able to point out Tom Nook? They could point out Kamek, and heck, they could point out Takamaru. But just like Pokemon, and Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing has a surplus of characters where the characters are not notable individually, but are notable as a species of characters. They all have the same speaking mannerisms, all are humanoid animals, etc. We don't buy Animal Crossing games to have Tom Nook in them, but to have the Animal Crossing folk and villagers in them. However, I am aware of Tom Nook's presence in the series, and will consider moving them up as well.

I mean he is the Villager you always go to first in the games, the iconic furniture leaf insignia is based off him being a tanooki, and he’s very popular with Japanese players, I’d say anyone who’s played AC has at least heard of him.

Regardless nice to hear you’re considering him.

 

[Zinith]

Wouldn’t really call Yoshi “large”, that’s stretching it.

VGsales was all I can find on that front. It claims that the series sold around 25 million units. What exactly is "big" by your standards?

 

[NintenRob]

With Woolly World and Crafted World and legacy of the original Yoshi's Island. I'd say the series is big enough.

My ideal choice for second rep though is Baby Mario (who I know many people wouldn't want) or Kamek, who I think is most likely.

Poochy is cute, but he's not much of a character and he just feels like he's more assist trophy material. He'd still cool though.

 

[StormC]

A Yoshi character that isn't Kamek wouldn't make much sense. It should absolutely be him.

 

[fogbadge]

Why do people want Byleth another blue haired Swordsman over any of the House Leaders? Claude uses the bow which could make a unique moveset, Edelgard uses an axe, and Dimitri uses a lance. Way better than another FE Avatar character. We already have Robin and Corrin who both fill that role and are much more unique. Yeah Byleth has "The Sword of the Creator" but is that really enough to make him stand out over the other Sword characters? I personally dont think so.

simple, edlgard is the worst and dimitri is a jerk

 

[Sebas22]

What Nintendo should've done was to include some of the lesser known first party characters as secret unlockable fighters. No trailer, no announcement, just put them in.

 

[NintenZ]

VGsales was all I can find on that front. It claims that the series sold around 25 million units. What exactly is "big" by your standards?

Oh... Wasn't aware it sold that much actually... (Although VGsales isn't a reliable source but I'm willing to excuse this)

I was just going off the fact it was heavily rooted in the Mario series is all.

 

[Calamitas]

Honestly, as far as first-party DLC goes, I think as of right now, Elma, someone from Three Houses and the protagonists of Astral Chain are frontrunners. For my reasoning on Elma, I'm just gonna refer to these images I made a couple of months ago. As for Three Houses and Astral Chain, as others have already said, the absence of Spirits is quite telling.

 

[NintenZ]

Honestly, as far as first-party DLC goes, I think as of right now, Elma, someone from Three Houses and the protagonists of Astral Chain are frontrunners. For my reasoning on Elma, I'm just gonna refer to these images I made a couple of months ago. As for Three Houses and Astral Chain, as others have already said, the absence of Spirits is quite telling.

Huh, the whole thing on Elma is pretty compelling... I'll take it all into consideration but I wouldn't sleep on Fiora either personally (Hell have them Echo each other, they both dual wield and have similar abilities overall).

But ngl I have been beginning to think Rex's costume was Sakurai's way of substituting him not making the cut.

 

[fogbadge]

But ngl I have been beginning to think Rex's costume was Sakurai's way of substituting him not making the cut.

yeah for the base roster

 

[Door Key Pig]

I really don't see Astral Chain getting in when it's completely new. I'd hope that that and "another Pokemon/Fire Emblem character" aren't all the first party options people see as reasonable.

 

[Calamitas]

Huh, the whole thing on Elma is pretty compelling... I'll take it all into consideration but I wouldn't sleep on Fiora either personally (Hell have them Echo each other, they both dual wield and have similar abilities overall).

But ngl I have been beginning to think Rex's costume was Sakurai's way of substituting him not making the cut.

While that'd be nice, their abilities are not really a perfect fit for each other. Someone's moveset would have to be somewhat inaccurate for one to be the echo of the other and I'd prefer it if that were Fiora.

As for Rex, wasn't that essentially the point of the costume to begin with?
Either way, I still believe that DLC Mii costumes are a deconfirmation for Ultimate, period. Which, coincidentally, the costume also is. Who knows, maybe the Geno Mii costume not returning is a point in favour of that.

simple, edlgard is the worst and dimitri is a jerk

Wow. That has to be the most shallow reading that I've seen in quite a while.

 

[NintenZ]

While that'd be nice, their abilities are not really a perfect fit for each other. Someone's moveset would have to be somewhat inaccurate for one to be the echo of the other and I'd prefer it if that were Fiora.

As for Rex, wasn't that essentially the point of the costume to begin with?
Either way, I still believe that DLC Mii costumes are a deconfirmation for Ultimate, period. Which, coincidentally, the costume also is. Who knows, maybe the Geno Mii costume not returning is a point in favour of that.

Yeah pretty much what I'm thinking, if they have a Mii Costume you need to pay for, it puts them at a disadvantage since you'd be paying for the character twice basically.

I feel if Geno really is playable then he could come with the costume bundled with him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah pretty much what I'm thinking, if they have a Mii Costume you need to pay for, it puts them at a disadvantage since you'd be paying for the character twice basically.

I feel if Geno really is playable then he could come with the costume bundled with him.

However, the Rex costume is exclusive to the pass, which will mostly not be obsolete if Rex becomes playable later on.

 

[NintenZ]

While that'd be nice, their abilities are not really a perfect fit for each other. Someone's moveset would have to be somewhat inaccurate for one to be the echo of the other and I'd prefer it if that were Fiora.

Oh right forgot to comment on this.

I feel if they were to be Echoes of each other their abilities would be streamlined to fit in with each other, kinda like how Richter and Simon are.

As well as this I could see some of their special moves being changed to better reflect them, Elma would use guns while Fiora would Cannon Drones, etc.

 

[fogbadge]

Wow. That has to be the most shallow reading that I've seen in quite a while.

why? because it conflicts with your own opinions or cause you assume i dont know what im talking about

 

[Pokelego999]

Why do people want Byleth another blue haired Swordsman over any of the House Leaders? Claude uses the bow which could make a unique moveset, Edelgard uses an axe, and Dimitri uses a lance. Way better than another FE Avatar character. We already have Robin and Corrin who both fill that role and are much more unique. Yeah Byleth has "The Sword of the Creator" but is that really enough to make him stand out over the other Sword characters? I personally dont think so.

Also why are we arguing about whether Nintendo characters will sell DLC or whether these characters are D-list or not? Most Smash fans bought the Fighters Pass without knowing who the **** they were gonna get. They bought it blind so obviously they are okay with anyone they decide to add just so they can have a full roster. Also the idea that just because your 3rd party means your automatically well known is laughable. No one knew who Bayonetta was before Smash besides her small dedicated fanbase. Joker is from a fairly niche JRPG series, Hero is very unknown outside of Japan as DQ is not big over here in the slightest, No one outside of Latin America knows or cares about Terry Bogard/SNK/Fatal Fury/KOF. Banjo has been the most well known/hyped character in the DLC pack by far and thats saying something considering Banjo hasnt had a new game since 2008.

At this point it just feels like Nintendo is adding 3rd party characters just to add them. Banjo and Hero were the only highly requested characters added as DLC. Its not like Nintendo is going after the BIG highly requested 3rd party characters like Sora, Crash, Spyro, Master Chief, Minecraft Steve, or Doom Guy. We've been getting the table scraps of 3rd party characters. So IMO a Dixie Kong or a Bandana Dee or a Waluigi or a Pig Ganon, or a Captain Toad have about the same reach/appeal as a Terry, Bayonetta, or Joker did/do.

He/She's the main character. Saying we need a house leader over the main character is like saying we need magolor or taranza before Kirby. (Just an example don't drill me)

 

[fogbadge]

He/She's the main character. Saying we need a house leader over the main character is like saying we need magolor or taranza before Kirby. (Just an example don't drill me)

or robin over chrom

hang on

 

[GoodGrief741]

or robin over chrom

hang on

The exception that proves the rule, Robin over Chrom was not a good decision.

 

[fogbadge]

The exception that proves the rule, Robin over Chrom was not a good decision.

perhaps, but i wouldnt put it past sakurai to do it again

 

[smash puffle]

I want Mike Jones from StarTropics.

 

[Deleted member]

Why is Smash Bros. moving on from just a Nintendo crossover a bad thing?

Because this series started as a Nintendo crossover? I really shouldn't have to explain why fans would rather focus on adding Nintendo characters to a Nintendo crossover which is exclusive to Nintendo consoles.

And before you ask, no im not opposed to third parties. What i am opposed to is that half of these third parties that have next to nothing to do with Nintendo take priority over first parties.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Because this series started as a Nintendo crossover? I really shouldn't have to explain why fans would rather focus on adding Nintendo characters to a Nintendo crossover which is exclusive to Nintendo consoles.

And before you ask, no im not opposed to third parties. What i am opposed to is that half of these third parties that have next to nothing to do with Nintendo take priority over first parties.

It's been a gaming crossover longer than it has been a Nintendo-only crossover and if Melee had come out a year later, there's a good chance we might have seen the likes of Sonic and Snake in that game. Like, that's my issue, the first thing Smash more or less turned to was widening its scope as a series and it has benefited from that expansion in terms of sales and recognition. I understand some people would like more first parties, but the way some revolt against third parties doesn't help that cause. Especially when the "fan base" has been undergoing a great deal of changes to incorporate more third parties in discussion and instances prefer them. Why is evolution and change bad when it has also actively benefited the game you love and continued its Nintendo crossover elements in addition to incorporating new stuff from a wide variety of third parties? And if those third parties are actively contributing to the health and sustained support of Smash, isn't that a good thing?

Which third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo? Because they all do in fairly major ways:

Sonic - Mario's Rival and a longtime standard character on Nintendo consoles post Dreamcast.
Snake - Exclusive remake of Metal Gear Solid and the first Metal Gear originally debuted in the west on the NES.
Mega Man - NES icon.
Pac-Man - Massive third party that consistently ends up on Nintendo consoles and Miyamoto ended up working on Pac-Man VS. as a Gamecube exclusive.
Ryu - Street Fighter II and the SNES are practically inseparable.
Cloud - Final Fantasy was massive on the NES and SNES, and he represent the series as a whole by being present.
Bayonetta - Basically a Nintendo character.
Simon Belmont - NES icon.
Richter Belmont - Probably the only one not really Nintendo related, but he's more Castlevania and Dracula X was on SNES.
Ken - See Ryu.
Joker - Persona has appeared on Nintendo consoles, and he can function as an offshoot of Shin Megami Tensei and represents Atlus' commitment to Nintendo, which is a massively company that has supported Nintendo consoles heavily through the portable DS and 3DS eras.
Hero - Dragon Quest has released every mainline entry of the series and almost every spinoff on Nintendo consoles, many of which were exclusive.
Banjo & Kazooie - Literally original Nintendo characters.
Terry - Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, and Samurai Showdown all had SNES versions and King of Fighters is basically what spawned Smash, so it's almost accidentally the most relevant third party series to Smash. They've also quite consistently supported Nintendo in the modern era and practically owned the Switch eShop right after release.

Like, every third party has connections to Nintendo in meaningful ways. Yes, some more than others, but I don't get where your arbitrary marker of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo." Some of these characters have a greater number of appearances than many first party characters people support, so again, your stance of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo" isn't really all that grounded in reality. I might give you Joker and Richter, but that's one unique and one echo in a roster of 81 playable fighters.

 

[YoshiandToad]

The exception that proves the rule, Robin over Chrom was not a good decision.

If anything I think Lucina over Chrom was a more questionable choice personally since Chrom's the main character and Robin is the person who makes all the tactical gameplay decisions. I guess Lucina is more popular than both of them but still. This is what happens when you have three vital characters to the plot.

...no, I don't think we need all three house leaders and Byleth.

Snip for length

Cloud is a bit of a stretch as is Joker since their appearances are very bit parts in spinoffs with their main games being very much Sony exclusive until recently for Cloud. Snake was always associated more with Playstation if we're honest than Nintendo, but that's semantics.

There's nothing wrong with third party additions at all, I'd even argue the best additions in Sm4sh were all third party when we got some true legends in Pac-Man, Megaman, Ryu and Cloud, but the problem is the attitude towards first parties as of late.

This is what the threads for, for those who don't really like the recent change in speculation to where first party potential newcomers are deemed "worthless" by the Smashboards community and have any and all discussion about first party additions or ideas shut down because "third parties are the only interesting ideas left".

For years this was a Nintendo crossover led game. Now it's like we live in an alternate universe where the idea of a Nintendo newcomer getting in is actively discouraged.
It's just weird, like living in a reality where Mario Kart newcomers are discussed but you get shot down if you suggest Pauline, Cappy, Nabbit or E.Gadd as everyone thinks the series should focus on adding Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters all of a sudden.

 

[Jomosensual]

Here are my top most wanted 1st party characters

An Arms rep - Ribbon Girl is the most likely choice I think since Spring Man is an assist trophy. Feels like the most deserving 1st party series that doesn't have a rep yet outside maybe Rhythm Heaven
Rhythm Heaven Rep - Karate Joe or Chorus Kids would be the most likely go here I think. Never actually touched and RH game but a character with a rhythm based moveset sounds really fun.
Cranky Kong - Feel like he really deserves it given he's the original DK. Can do a fun moveset combining old people things and him busting out some old DK stuff.
Porky - My favorite boss from Subspace. The Spider Mech would also be so cool to use in fights.
Edelgard - I know we're tiring on Fire Emblem characters but I really feel like she's earned her spot. The most popular and interesting of the 3 house leaders for sure and the game was pretty successful from both a fan enjoyment and a commercial level if it wasn't for FE getting backlash over having a lot of reps I would think she's a lock for the post fighter pass DLC
Unsafe WiiMote Guy - This is technically not a character, but he/she is in all of the wii games and would be a really fun WTF pick if we're going to get one for DLC.
Sandbag- Would also be a really fun WTF pick and since it's present in most if not all the smash games it would be a reasonable pick for that catagory.
Mach Rider - Would be a fun throw back pick. Really wouldn't mind getting another one of those as DLC. MR would also have a unqiue moveset
King Boo - Another really unique fighter with what would be a really interesting moveset. Might be better suited to be an assist trophy
Birdo - Same as above
Impa/Skull Kid/Linkle/A new Zelda rep - Don't really have a personal preference here, just think Legend of Zelda should get a rep in that's not a different form of Link and Zelda.

There are a few others like Waluigi or Issac who I'd like to see as well but I don't think we're getting any ATs upgraded in DLC. I also wouldn't hate seeing a Gen 8 Pokemon, but since there aren't really any standout choices revealed yet it's hard to call myself a supporter for it. Ideally I'd like Grooky's final form assuming it's feasible. Toad would also be cool but since he's still in Peach and Daisy's movesets I don't see it happening. There's a way to work around that for sure, but still think they've kinda decided where they want Toad at.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

There's nothing wrong with third party additions at all, I'd even argue the best additions in Sm4sh were all third party when we got some true legends in Pac-Man, Megaman, Ryu and Cloud, but the problem is the attitude towards first parties as of late.

This is what the threads for, for those who don't really like the recent change in speculation to where first party potential newcomers are deemed "worthless" by the Smashboards community and have any and all discussion about first party additions or ideas shut down because "third parties are the only interesting ideas left".

For years this was a Nintendo crossover led game. Now it's like we live in an alternate universe where the idea of a Nintendo newcomer getting in is actively discouraged.
It's just weird, like living in a reality where Mario Kart newcomers are discussed but you get shot down if you suggest Pauline, Cappy, Nabbit or E.Gadd as everyone thinks the series should focus on adding Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters all of a sudden.

Pretty much this. Third Parties are great, but I don't want Smash to move completely away from what made it special in the first place. I'd be fine if it was "Nintendo AND Gaming All-Stars", but not what it is now. It doesn't feel like there's much variety nowadays, with most new fighters being Third Party Human Males, while everyone who's Nintendo gets the royal boot, with an Assist Trophy in-game and/or a sneer during speculation at best. All the Nintendo content we got besides Plant who was meant for base game was a Team Rocket Grunt Mii Brawler outfit. And it really sucks when there are a bunch of characters who would make great fighters, such as...

Note: List is in alphabetical order and this is not a definitive list (I know some of these character seem like never-ever picks even among Nintendo supporters). They're just a few of the characters that I personally think would make good Nintendo Reps.

Bandana Dee (Kirby): 4th Main character of the Kirby series, really bad modern Kirby Representation (nothing beyond a couple final smashes and ported content, and we haven't gotten a Kirby rep since Brawl (that's 10 years), and absolutely Zero spear users on the roster. Despite what Gamexplain would tell you, Bandana Dee is probably the most deserving character to be in Smash as a fighter out of anyone, Nintendo or not..
Euden (Dragalia Lost): Would be the first Mobile Game Rep and would shed more light on an Underrated Game (seriously go play it there isn't a gacha game that's nearly as nice to their players). He's probably the only one on this list who stands an actual chance.
Impa (Zelda Echo): We haven't gotten a Zelda newcomer since Brawl, and we've never gotten a Non-Triforce Holder. I think this true member of the Sheikah (using either Skyward Sword or Hyrule Warriors design) would make a great Echo Fighter. It could make sense for her to be an Echo since Impa and Shiek could be using the same fighting style like Ryu and Ken are.
Octoling (Inkling Echo): After how much it's done in so little time, especially compared to franchises like (no offense to their fans) Star Fox, Earthbound/Mother, F-Zero, and etc, Splatoon deserves more than 1 rep. Playing exactly like Inkling, Octoling would be the perfect Echo Fighter!
Rex & Pyra/Mythra (Xenoblade): Xenoblade 2 is the game that made the Xenoblade series stand out on its own merits and not just because of its rep in Smash. Rex would provide a very unique fighter for the roster with a reverse Pokemon Trainer gimmick, changing his attributes and maybe even some of his moves when he switches Blades.
Squid Sisters/Off The Hook (Splatoon): Again, Splatoon deserves more than 1 rep for how much it's done in so little time, and these 2 duos are very important parts of the series once you look beyond simple Turf Wars (Single Player, Splatfests, Etc.).
Toad/Waluigi (Mario): Unless Pauline keeps appearing in games (in which case, add her to this list), Toad and Waluigi are the only characters needed to complete the Mario All-Star Cast. Both are memorable, and definitely deserve a shot. Toad could represent the newer Mario sidescrollers (think Mario if he were a Smash 4 Newcomer), and Waluigi could use moves from all of his spinoff appearances (Sports, Kart, Party, etc.).

And there's more than that!

If you make a support list, please add me on it!

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Cloud is a bit of a stretch as is Joker since their appearances are very bit parts in spinoffs with their main games being very much Sony exclusive until recently for Cloud. Snake was always associated more with Playstation if we're honest than Nintendo, but that's semantics.

There's nothing wrong with third party additions at all, I'd even argue the best additions in Sm4sh were all third party when we got some true legends in Pac-Man, Megaman, Ryu and Cloud, but the problem is the attitude towards first parties as of late.

This is what the threads for, for those who don't really like the recent change in speculation to where first party potential newcomers are deemed "worthless" by the Smashboards community and have any and all discussion about first party additions or ideas shut down because "third parties are the only interesting ideas left".

For years this was a Nintendo crossover led game. Now it's like we live in an alternate universe where the idea of a Nintendo newcomer getting in is actively discouraged.
It's just weird, like living in a reality where Mario Kart newcomers are discussed but you get shot down if you suggest Pauline, Cappy, Nabbit or E.Gadd as everyone thinks the series should focus on adding Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters all of a sudden.

Why do people keep pretending like Cloud doesn't represent Final Fantasy as a whole? Sakurai literally told us that and also told us he was the most requested Final Fantasy character from all of these fans, so I really don't think Cloud counts as anything less despite Final Fantasy VII being associated with PS1. Joker, I'll give a little bit of leeway, but he's clearly the lead in Persona Q2 and will be in Scramble as well, in addition to the arguments I think you can make about Atlus having a rep in Smash.

I still think people miss the point of the commentary on first party characters a bit though. Like, the general point is that they have been subject to diminishing returns more and more in comparison to the alternatives. As we move further and further through Nintnedo's catalogue, characters just can't create the same enthusiasm any more, especially once you get more and more niche in those picks. It gets harder to find characters that people have actively rallied around once the existing big dogs have been included (See King K. Rool and Ridley) and fans splinter off into more specific or limited characters, or as it seems to have happened, several towards third parties. I admit there's a list of, maybe 10, characters that are first party that can still invigorate people... but after that it gets a lot less clear as to what will even excite people. Especially in DLC, you have to be more mindful of selling individual fighters to people as opposed to part of a base game where characters add up to a whole, and I think that's where first parties, especially past that short list, start to falter. Therefore, I think a lot of people have moved on from those discussions except for that smaller handful I mentioned earlier.

Coming from the other side of things (I barely want to see another first party character in the game at this point), I guess it's harder to be sympathetic to the cause of first parties these days. When Sakurai says, "hey, this is the only opportunity to have this many characters and companies/worlds in a crossover," it does honestly feel like regression to not use that opportunity to its fullest. The first party options will still be there for the future, but we don't know if we'll ever get a chance to see this many icons across gaming come together in literally any title. Also, like the "purity of Smash Bros." feels like it just comes up all the time and has for going on 10 years to every character that people don't like, and they've kept moving in this direction over time that it kind of just doesn't really register for me anymore. I don't think it's fair to call Smash Bros. "a Nintendo crossover" anymore, I think "Video Game Crossover" fits it much better, and when people have made arguments against Pac-Man, Ryu, and Hero that are so horribly off base because they aren't a more specific first party character (despite all having huge ties to Nintendo)... It's just hard to have that sympathy, especially when it doesn't feel like the Nintendo crossover has suffered any for it outside of there just being fewer Nintendo additions in DLC (base Smash 4 and Ultimate did tons of good work for the Nintendo crossover stuff that I feel like has been largely ignored by the people complaining about the third party additions).

I do want to have a conversation on this, because at times to me it feels like "old person yelling at these new fangled kids and their more inclusive Smash Bros." I do understand it's partially the rhetoric change in speculation, but I've tried to outline my personal thoughts on why that is and why I'm less supportive of first parties these days to maybe give a glimpse into why that rhetoric has change in some ways. Obviously, there's no justification for just being an asshole about things (and I hope that's not how I'm coming off) and some people have been dismissive in improper ways, but I also feel like some of the people who mean no harm and just speculate more straightly based on what they see and interpret are taken possibly too poorly by some people here, when those sorts of things have less to do with the personal value judgements. I'm curious to examine this more closely I guess, so this is a jumping off point for that.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Why do people keep pretending like Cloud doesn't represent Final Fantasy as a whole? Sakurai literally told us that and also told us he was the most requested Final Fantasy character from all of these fans, so I really don't think Cloud counts as anything less despite Final Fantasy VII being associated with PS1. Joker, I'll give a little bit of leeway, but he's clearly the lead in Persona Q2 and will be in Scramble as well, in addition to the arguments I think you can make about Atlus having a rep in Smash.

I still think people miss the point of the commentary on first party characters a bit though. Like, the general point is that they have been subject to diminishing returns more and more in comparison to the alternatives. As we move further and further through Nintnedo's catalogue, characters just can't create the same enthusiasm any more, especially once you get more and more niche in those picks. It gets harder to find characters that people have actively rallied around once the existing big dogs have been included (See King K. Rool and Ridley) and fans splinter off into more specific or limited characters, or as it seems to have happened, several towards third parties. I admit there's a list of, maybe 10, characters that are first party that can still invigorate people... but after that it gets a lot less clear as to what will even excite people. Especially in DLC, you have to be more mindful of selling individual fighters to people as opposed to part of a base game where characters add up to a whole, and I think that's where first parties, especially past that short list, start to falter. Therefore, I think a lot of people have moved on from those discussions except for that smaller handful I mentioned earlier.

Coming from the other side of things (I barely want to see another first party character in the game at this point), I guess it's harder to be sympathetic to the cause of first parties these days. When Sakurai says, "hey, this is the only opportunity to have this many characters and companies/worlds in a crossover," it does honestly feel like regression to not use that opportunity to its fullest. The first party options will still be there for the future, but we don't know if we'll ever get a chance to see this many icons across gaming come together in literally any title. Also, like the "purity of Smash Bros." feels like it just comes up all the time and has for going on 10 years to every character that people don't like, and they've kept moving in this direction over time that it kind of just doesn't really register for me anymore. I don't think it's fair to call Smash Bros. "a Nintendo crossover" anymore, I think "Video Game Crossover" fits it much better, and when people have made arguments against Pac-Man, Ryu, and Hero that are so horribly off base because they aren't a more specific first party character (despite all having huge ties to Nintendo)... It's just hard to have that sympathy, especially when it doesn't feel like the Nintendo crossover has suffered any for it outside of there just being fewer Nintendo additions in DLC (base Smash 4 and Ultimate did tons of good work for the Nintendo crossover stuff that I feel like has been largely ignored by the people complaining about the third party additions).

I do want to have a conversation on this, because at times to me it feels like "old person yelling at these new fangled kids and their more inclusive Smash Bros." I do understand it's partially the rhetoric change in speculation, but I've tried to outline my personal thoughts on why that is and why I'm less supportive of first parties these days to maybe give a glimpse into why that rhetoric has change in some ways. Obviously, there's no justification for just being an ******* about things (and I hope that's not how I'm coming off) and some people have been dismissive in improper ways, but I also feel like some of the people who mean no harm and just speculate more straightly based on what they see and interpret are taken possibly too poorly by some people here, when those sorts of things have less to do with the personal value judgements. I'm curious to examine this more closely I guess, so this is a jumping off point for that.

RE: Cloud and FF
If Cloud's supposed to rep his entire series, they've done a terrible job at it. FFVII alone is represented poorly.

RE: I can think of at most 10 characters that will invigorate people, then what?
Stick those 10 in first, then we can see what comes after.

Plus I honestly don't think it can be said that characters need to be huge hype machines after Terry.

RE: Smash Bros is no longer Nintendo first
I disagree for one main reason: they clearly don't treat the third parties as anything other than guests. I'll explain why:

Sonic has been in Smash since Brawl, that's 3 games, and for a hugely iconic franchise and the rival of Mario, representation is really lacking. You'd honestly expect a franchise so full of icons to have more than one character, yet we have nothing. We still don't have any third party with two unique characters, we only have the protagonists representing them (and two echoes). It honestly feels like they're being added more as guests, to be able to nab that Smash X franchise logo, than as peers to the Nintendo characters.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Why do people keep pretending like Cloud doesn't represent Final Fantasy as a whole? Sakurai literally told us that and also told us he was the most requested Final Fantasy character from all of these fans, so I really don't think Cloud counts as anything less despite Final Fantasy VII being associated with PS1. Joker, I'll give a little bit of leeway, but he's clearly the lead in Persona Q2 and will be in Scramble as well, in addition to the arguments I think you can make about Atlus having a rep in Smash.

I still think people miss the point of the commentary on first party characters a bit though. Like, the general point is that they have been subject to diminishing returns more and more in comparison to the alternatives. As we move further and further through Nintnedo's catalogue, characters just can't create the same enthusiasm any more, especially once you get more and more niche in those picks. It gets harder to find characters that people have actively rallied around once the existing big dogs have been included (See King K. Rool and Ridley) and fans splinter off into more specific or limited characters, or as it seems to have happened, several towards third parties. I admit there's a list of, maybe 10, characters that are first party that can still invigorate people... but after that it gets a lot less clear as to what will even excite people. Especially in DLC, you have to be more mindful of selling individual fighters to people as opposed to part of a base game where characters add up to a whole, and I think that's where first parties, especially past that short list, start to falter. Therefore, I think a lot of people have moved on from those discussions except for that smaller handful I mentioned earlier.

Coming from the other side of things (I barely want to see another first party character in the game at this point), I guess it's harder to be sympathetic to the cause of first parties these days. When Sakurai says, "hey, this is the only opportunity to have this many characters and companies/worlds in a crossover," it does honestly feel like regression to not use that opportunity to its fullest. The first party options will still be there for the future, but we don't know if we'll ever get a chance to see this many icons across gaming come together in literally any title. Also, like the "purity of Smash Bros." feels like it just comes up all the time and has for going on 10 years to every character that people don't like, and they've kept moving in this direction over time that it kind of just doesn't really register for me anymore. I don't think it's fair to call Smash Bros. "a Nintendo crossover" anymore, I think "Video Game Crossover" fits it much better, and when people have made arguments against Pac-Man, Ryu, and Hero that are so horribly off base because they aren't a more specific first party character (despite all having huge ties to Nintendo)... It's just hard to have that sympathy, especially when it doesn't feel like the Nintendo crossover has suffered any for it outside of there just being fewer Nintendo additions in DLC (base Smash 4 and Ultimate did tons of good work for the Nintendo crossover stuff that I feel like has been largely ignored by the people complaining about the third party additions).

I do want to have a conversation on this, because at times to me it feels like "old person yelling at these new fangled kids and their more inclusive Smash Bros." I do understand it's partially the rhetoric change in speculation, but I've tried to outline my personal thoughts on why that is and why I'm less supportive of first parties these days to maybe give a glimpse into why that rhetoric has change in some ways. Obviously, there's no justification for just being an ******* about things (and I hope that's not how I'm coming off) and some people have been dismissive in improper ways, but I also feel like some of the people who mean no harm and just speculate more straightly based on what they see and interpret are taken possibly too poorly by some people here, when those sorts of things have less to do with the personal value judgements. I'm curious to examine this more closely I guess, so this is a jumping off point for that.

I feel this conversation is worth having for sure.

I haven't much time to discuss right now (I have work in 6 hours and need to sleep) but for a jumping off point on this; one issue I'm personally having is the DLC being the indication of future Smash games. For me(and again, I can't stress this enough, this is my own personal opinion more than the collective of first party supporters) the concern isn't just what's happening right here and now, but that the DLC might be used to decide what is and what isn't worth putting funding into for future Smash Bros. games.

Sm4sh DLC was pretty much all veterans and third party legends like Ryu and Cloud and it was all mostly positively recieved...with the sole exception of the only Nintendo owned newcomer of Corrin who recieved a lot of flack for being more Fire Emblem from a fanbase that was a little exhausted with Fire Emblem at the time.

Fast forward to Ultimate and the two selling points are "Everyone is Here" most likely after the success of the veteran DLC and the large amount of requests for missing Smashers to return in the ballot and the DLC is very much all pointed at third parties with Plant being the outlier but planned for base.

Our base newcomer pool was rather tiny for a Smash game due to the focus of "Everyone is here", and of that newcomer pool we got four true unique Nintendo characters: Ridley, Inkling, K. Rool and Incineroar with variations of Peach, Samus, Roy and Villager to bolster up the newcomer section.
Maybe this seems a little spoiled but that roster, whilst having good additions, is a little shallow without the echos and considering how big a gap we sometimes have to wait between games it did seem a bit underwhelming since newcomers have always traditionally been the exciting thing about a new Smash game.

With the DLC all being third party(bar Plant but he's the exception rather than the rule), I have to wonder if Nintendo have lost faith in their own IPs being recieved well after the reaction to Corrin. With Ultimate being already crowned as "The best Smash game ever, there's no way they'll ever top this" by fans will Nintendo view this as the only way to continue making money from Smash Bros, by focusing entirely on third parties?

Something to start up the conversation with. Apologies for it being a scrambled mess, it's very very late.

(ah crap, now it's five hours!)

 

[Guynamednelson]

their own IPs being recieved well after the reaction to Corrin

To be fair, Corrin was still a decent seller, even if it wasn't as much as Bayonetta. And even then, "Nintendo character bad" shouldn't be considered the reason why Bayo was a better seller, since she was starting to be considered one with Bayonetta 2 being a Wii U exclusive funded by Nintendo.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

RE: Cloud and FF
If Cloud's supposed to rep his entire series, they've done a terrible job at it. FFVII alone is represented poorly.

RE: I can think of at most 10 characters that will invigorate people, then what?
Stick those 10 in first, then we can see what comes after.

Plus I honestly don't think it can be said that characters need to be huge hype machines after Terry.

RE: Smash Bros is no longer Nintendo first
I disagree for one main reason: they clearly don't treat the third parties as anything other than guests. I'll explain why:

Sonic has been in Smash since Brawl, that's 3 games, and for a hugely iconic franchise and the rival of Mario, representation is really lacking. You'd honestly expect a franchise so full of icons to have more than one character, yet we have nothing. We still don't have any third party with two unique characters, we only have the protagonists representing them (and two echoes). It honestly feels like they're being added more as guests, to be able to nab that Smash X franchise logo, than as peers to the Nintendo characters.

Not literally the entire franchise, he's supposed to be Final Fantasy in Smash, which he achieves. As for the 10, again, I have to emphasize the nature of diminishing returns for Smash's first party offerings. You're not going to have the hype of 10 years of support that some of the big ones had going into this release and it's harder to get people to care about more and more niche offerings across the board.

Terry wasn't a hype addition for the west, but he was for other regions. You can't discount that just because he wasn't as targeted at western audiences.

I don't know if I agree with the notion of them not being treated like third parties. I mean Splatoon, Punch-Out, Xenoblade Chronicles, Yoshi, Wario (Ware and Land), etc. all only have one character, and while they're several degrees less important than the third parties, it still shows franchises can be repped with one fighter and be fine. I mean, hell, Castlevania and Street Fighter have more music in the game than several first parties and both have two characters each, and Sonic has two stages which is more than other franchises. There's more than just the playable character to consider, and I do think that Nintendo knows there's probably more value and interest that can be brought to the game by adding new franchises as opposed to just going deeper into say Sonic, Mega Man, or whatever. I don't look at any of the third parties and see them as any lesser of characters or franchise personally, but that's me. It's a shift from going deeper into franchises and just focusing on new franchises, and I don't think that's less valid in any way.

I feel this conversation is worth having for sure.

I haven't much time to discuss right now (I have work in 6 hours and need to sleep) but for a jumping off point on this; one issue I'm personally having is the DLC being the indication of future Smash games. For me(and again, I can't stress this enough, this is my own personal opinion more than the collective of first party supporters) the concern isn't just what's happening right here and now, but that the DLC might be used to decide what is and what isn't worth putting funding into for future Smash Bros. games.

Sm4sh DLC was pretty much all veterans and third party legends like Ryu and Cloud and it was all mostly positively recieved...with the sole exception of the only Nintendo owned newcomer of Corrin who recieved a lot of flack for being more Fire Emblem from a fanbase that was a little exhausted with Fire Emblem at the time.

Fast forward to Ultimate and the two selling points are "Everyone is Here" most likely after the success of the veteran DLC and the large amount of requests for missing Smashers to return in the ballot and the DLC is very much all pointed at third parties with Plant being the outlier but planned for base.

Our base newcomer pool was rather tiny for a Smash game due to the focus of "Everyone is here", and of that newcomer pool we got four true unique Nintendo characters: Ridley, Inkling, K. Rool and Incineroar with variations of Peach, Samus, Roy and Villager to bolster up the newcomer section.
Maybe this seems a little spoiled but that roster, whilst having good additions, is a little shallow without the echos and considering how big a gap we sometimes have to wait between games it did seem a bit underwhelming since newcomers have always traditionally been the exciting thing about a new Smash game.

With the DLC all being third party(bar Plant but he's the exception rather than the rule), I have to wonder if Nintendo have lost faith in their own IPs being recieved well after the reaction to Corrin. With Ultimate being already crowned as "The best Smash game ever, there's no way they'll ever top this" by fans will Nintendo view this as the only way to continue making money from Smash Bros, by focusing entirely on third parties?

Something to start up the conversation with. Apologies for it being a scrambled mess, it's very very late.

(ah crap, now it's five hours!)

So, I get that concern, but I don't think it's necessarily founded. Third parties work substantially better than as base game additions. I don't think it's by chance that 9/12 base game newcomers (counting Piranha Plant as base because he was clearly meant to be) are first party and they only added one new universe as opposed to going for more and the remaining two fighters were just third party Echoes. It costs money to make these deals, and while that's not necessarily a problem in the individual vacuums of DLC, it's a bigger problem when you have a budget for a base game that has to cover all sorts of different things. They're less economical to implement as base roster additions overall, so I doubt Nintendo would be so willing to forego first parties in a future base game Super Smash Bros. And future ones would presumably not go for Everyone is Here, which means more newcomers more than likely to justify the absence of other characters. Because really, Everyone is Here was the issue that I think is partially responsible for the concerns about first parties. Ultimate couldn't accommodate many newcomers because it had such a tall order as bringing everyone back from Smash 4, bringing back in 7 previously cut veterans, bringing in 12 new fighters (6 unique, 1 semi-clone, and 5 Echoes... 4 Echoes and Ken lol) in addition to having a 20 hour campaign, individualized Classic Modes, remastering every stage included from past games with new assets, and so on.... in about two and a half years. And personally, I do think returning 6 Nintendo veterans is significant even if they aren't the biggest characters. It shows a devotion to their IPs still in base game, especially with all the Spirit focus and First Party stage focus. And I think that's only good for future base games and first party additions.

It's just things change when you get to DLC and characters have to hold up the continued support of the game and sell as individual products. Some Nintendo characters will be better at carrying that weight, and I do think some are possible personally like maybe a Bandanna Dee or a Rex/Pyra or even a Geno who's practically a first party. I think there's more opportunity for them to come in as fan pleasers in the additional DLC season. But I don't expect Nintendo to turn away from what third parties do in terms of attracting new customers, creating loads of hype for their game, and expanding Smash as a crossover across all of gaming media. Those are sort of the three main benefits of third parties, and many of them also serve to entertain and delight much of the existing fan base. Plus, they sell themselves much better as an individual product as a crossover as opposed to a more niche Nintendo character (which is not to say bad, niche in no way implies bad and I'm afraid some people get stuck on that point, they're just less intrinsically marketable).

I think base game and DLC have different contexts, and Nintendo and Sakurai are well aware of that. And it really, really seems like Sakurai is going for this impossible record of crossover achievement, he's mentioned this numerous times in recent years and specifically with Ultimate a ton. DLC is the best way to get third parties in Smash, and I think he's personally very interested in that, and a lot of fans/buyers are too, so Nintendo's willing to fund him. I admit I could be wrong and "Wave 2" or whatever will focus on Nintendo (I'm not expecting it, it would run almost completely counter intuitive to their approach with Smash DLC thus far, and especially counter intuitive to Sakurai's constant commentary, but I guess it's possible) though. I also think something that kind of hurt the first party offerings were the limited releases between Smash 4 and Ultimate with such a quick turnaround. Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar clearly were made to work on that, but there wasn't a lot successful outside of them until the Switch era (with an exception for Captain Toad, who I've got no reason as to why he isn't already in the game TBH). Bandanna Dee was kind of building and maybe Ashley too (but honestly, she seems like such a flash in the pan at this point months removed from her sudden increase in popularity and just as quick fall). Nintendo's IPs weren't as strong during that period in time (2015-2017) and they were struggling as a company, so I also think that has contributed to the current situation. The seeming recovery of Nintendo IPs and their success should also theoretically be good news for first parties in the future.

To be fair, Corrin was still a decent seller, even if it wasn't as much as Bayonetta. And even then, "Nintendo character bad" shouldn't be considered the reason why Bayo was a better seller, since she was starting to be considered one with Bayonetta 2 being a Wii U exclusive funded by Nintendo.

There are no sales figures to any of DLC, so I don't know how you would know Corrin was or was not a decent seller.

 

[NintenRob]

A lot of Third Party talk for First Party thread

 

[Deleted member]

It's been a gaming crossover longer than it has been a Nintendo-only crossover

Yeah and these third parties are and should be the exception, not the norm. I dunno if you looked at the roster but the majority are Nintendo characters. This is a Nintendo crossover with third party guests not Nintendo vs Third Parties.

your stance of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo"

I clearly said half of them, not all of them. You should spend more time working on your reading comprehension instead of finding ways to turn simple arguments that can be summed up in a few sentances into college essays.

Snake - Exclusive remake of Metal Gear Solid and the first Metal Gear originally debuted in the west on the NES.

Ryu - Street Fighter II and the SNES are practically inseparable.

Cloud - Final Fantasy was massive on the NES and SNES, and he represent the series as a whole by being present.

These 3 franchises have appeared more on the competitors consoles than Nintendo's. Megaman has done more for Nintendo than Street Fighter and the other 2 most well known games where they got the majority of their popularity are exclusive to Sony.

And also Cloud shouldnt be credited for the success of the previous games. Its pretty ridiculous if you ask-

Joker - Persona has appeared on Nintendo consoles, and he can function as an offshoot of Shin Megami Tensei and represents Atlus' commitment to Nintendo, which is a massively company that has supported Nintendo consoles heavily through the portable DS and 3DS eras.

....................... anyways

Pac-Man - Massive third party that consistently ends up on Nintendo consoles and Miyamoto ended up working on Pac-Man VS. as a Gamecube exclusive.

Oh please Pac Man was only popular by default his games have not aged well. Their no different from the apps you play on your phone. I'd much rather would've liked any other Namco rep to be in smash than Pac Man lol.

Ken - See Ryu.

See how Megaman is more deserving of these slots than Street Fighter.

Banjo & Kazooie - Literally original Nintendo characters.

Literally an overhyped has been whos owned by a competitor that does nothing with the series and only got in because of nostalgia blindness. His games have not aged well, its nowhere near on Mario 64's level, he hasnt been relevant since his first game and even his original creators havent done him any justice with his spiritual successor lmao.

Terry - Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, and Samurai Showdown all had SNES versions and King of Fighters is basically what spawned Smash, so it's almost accidentally the most relevant third party series to Smash. They've also quite consistently supported Nintendo in the modern era and practically owned the Switch eShop right after release.

.............................. you want some ice for all of that reaching?

but I don't get where your arbitrary marker of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo."

I dont get how you can misinterpret sentances that are easy to comprehend and always reply with an exam. Life's full of mistery's lmao.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah and these third parties are and should be the exception, not the norm. I dunno if you looked at the roster but the majority are Nintendo characters. This is a Nintendo crossover with third party guests not Nintendo vs Third Parties.

I clearly said half of them, not all of them. You should spend more time working on your reading comprehension instead of finding ways to turn simple arguments that can be summed up in a few sentances into college essays.

These 3 franchises have appeared more on the competitors consoles than Nintendo's. Megaman has done more for Nintendo than Street Fighter and the other 2 most well known games where they got the majority of their popularity are exclusive to Sony.

And also Cloud shouldnt be credited for the success of the previous games. Its pretty ridiculous if you ask-

....................... anyways

Oh please Pac Man was only popular by default his games have not aged well. Their no different from the apps you play on your phone. I'd much rather would've liked any other Namco rep to be in smash than Pac Man lol.

See how Megaman is more deserving of these slots than Street Fighter.

Literally an overhyped has been whos owned by a competitor that does nothing with the series and only got in because of nostalgia blindness. His games have not aged well, its nowhere near on Mario 64's level, he hasnt been relevant since his first game and even his original creators havent done him any justice with his spiritual successor lmao.

.............................. you want some ice for all of that reaching?

I dont get how you can misinterpret sentances that are easy to comprehend and always reply with an exam. Life's full of mistery's lmao.

I read and interpreted your comments just fine. I challenged your notion that "half of these third parties" have nothing to do with Nintendo and detailed every one of them to point out they have all history and relationships with Nintendo. It was entirely to point out that all the third parties in the game have a place and I was making a bigger point as to not call out the existing "third parties" for not belonging on some arbitrarily defined notion/level of "nothing to do with Nintendo" or whatever. Your counters are personal arguments against the franchises, especially in the cases of Banjo & Kazooie, Street Fighter, and Pac-Man. Again, Sakurai told us Cloud represents Final Fantasy as a whole... doesn't really matter if you believe him or not. Atlus and SNK are dedicated partners to Nintendo, who have also had big influences on Sakurai personally and have directly influenced Smash (King of Fighters in the entirety of its concept of a big crossover between a company's franchises, and Persona 5 influencing menus and the changes to Final Smashes to be more focused on traditional cinematics).


Completely unrelated to you, I'm here to have a discussion on how people are reacting to the third party speculation since it seems like a great place to bounce opinions off of people that inherently differ from one another. I want this to be an actual discussion between people since the impeteous for this thread seems to have been the lack thereof in other locations. I want to learn a little more about people supporting the first parties in this way, and maybe you all will learn something about my more third party focused mindset, and we'll find some common ground or just have good discussions.

 

[Deleted member]

I read and interpreted your comments just fine.

You did no such thing.

Heres what i said

And before you ask, no im not opposed to third parties. What i am opposed to is that half of these third parties that have next to nothing to do with Nintendo take priority over first parties.

And heres how you misintepreted it.

but I don't get where your arbitrary marker of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo."

your stance of these "third parties have nothing to do with Nintendo"

I challenged your notion that "half of these third parties" have nothing to do with Nintendo and detailed every one of them to point out they have all history and relationships with Nintendo.

And i debunked all of them detailing all the series whos ties with Nintendo are flimsy and have spent more time on Sony's consoles.

Your counters are personal arguments against the franchises, especially in the cases of Banjo & Kazooie

I mean sure if you think some slow collectathon is more enjoyable than a fluid platormer lol. Anything else i said about Banjo is factual.

Street Fighter

Heres some homework for you, count how many Street Fighter games are on Nintendo Consoles compared to Megaman.

If you got time to write these essays then you definitely have the time to do the math lol.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Street_Fighter_video_games

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mega_Man_video_games

and Pac-Man

Tekken and Soul Calibur are Namco's biggest franchises. Pac Man is only known for being a video game reference. Also there are more people playing Tetris than Pacmans games.

#Tetrisblock for smash.

Again, Sakurai told us Cloud represents Final Fantasy as a whole... doesn't really matter if you believe him or not.

Yeah. Because one of the most successful Final Fantasy games was on the PlayStation.
And i also clearly said that FF's future installments were on the competitors systems.

Atlus and SNK are dedicated partners to Nintendo

Not with the dlc character's franchises that got in smash. Joker's game is, again, on Sony's system while Nintendo only gets spin offs.

If anything that chibi Joker has more right to be in smash than regular Joker. Call him Toon Joker if you will/s

who have also had big influences on Sakurai personally and have directly influenced Smash (King of Fighters in the entirety of its concept of a big crossover between a company's franchises, and Persona 5 influencing menus and the changes to Final Smashes to be more focused on traditional cinematics).

.......................................... i got nothing clever to say.

I'm here to have a discussion on how people are reacting to the third party speculation since it seems like a great place to bounce opinions off of people that inherently differ from one another.

No you came here to shove your opinion down anyones throat that doesnt like third parties taking up DLC slots. You havent bothered trying to counter my arguments other than plugging your fingers in your ears. If you bothered to read the OP's post you'd clearly see that this thread is for people that dont like the direction Smash is taking with their DLC picks being third parties, in other words people with a different opinion than yours.

This isnt the place to argue with others about wanting third parties in smash.

 

[TheKnight]

Man, I just want Waluigi. I've wanted him for like 18 years. Wobbuffet would be pretty rad too, but I'm not holding out any hope for him.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Anyways, for reference my most wanted first party characters is Chibi-Robo... but Nintendo killed him with Park Patrol... and then they killed him again by not releasing the Wii version of the original in the states... and again by not releasing the proper DS sequel in the states... and then again by shoehorning him into a photo game... and again by shoehorning him into a platformer with the most terrible luck based level selection wheel I've ever seen.

The only time Nintendo has treated Chibi-Robo with any respect since the original game was by releasing an Amiibo for him. And I guess that flaming Chibi-Robo image lol.