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The falco matchup

Bullet Bill

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
3,734
Location
UK - Southampton
What do people think is the most important thing to do in the falco matchup? The shl as everyone knows are a complete pain and most of the time i end up only being able to sheild roll out of them. The pills can get in the way, but it is more difficult to get control with them. Chainthrowing/grabbing works very well indeed as we all know but to be honest, I can'd really do much else against falco. Anyone have any suggestions?
 

Mud Buddha

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
518
Take advantage of the mid range F-Tilt. Mid range is the weakest range for Falco, so to the extent that you can, exploit it. Also, Caping can be useful. Falco's great strength comes from his momentum. Don't expect to profit in terms of damage, but hitting a Falco once during his "SHL routine" can be really disruptive, and can sway the momentum in your favour.

Falco is inherently linear, so diagonally above or below him can be a strong (er) position to be in when attacking.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
yeah, I've been helping a friend of mine use falco better, and he is finally becoming a pain, but some things to add onto Mad Buddha's post.
__Lasers__
Know when caping will actually work...if the shoot highish, they will be below the laser level if you cape, and if they know you are going to cape they can simply hit b as they hit the ground (making the noise that *I* use to tell when to cape) but then they punish the capes lag. If they laser low they can jump by the time you cape). Powershielding is good, but very unreliable.

Try staying on platforms/stage depending what they are on (the diagonals thing M_B was talking about).
____
full jump pill-n-air is great if the falco likes shining pills: your boot goes though the reflected pill and hits them...but don't over use it...obviously.

***Edgeguard well: any Falco off the edge should be dead. The phantom is really easy to cape/ b-air people out of, once you get the timing. The firebird has bad range, and although more options than sideB, can really only go from horizontal to up, and can be caped/b-air depending.
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
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Oct 8, 2005
Messages
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Slippi.gg
spaw#333
The phantasm isn't easy to cape/bair... or at least not for me. It usually doesn't work since he just upb's back or something. I usually ftilt his phantasm or just nair and get it so that the ending part of the kick hits falco. I guess if you think they are going to phantasm, you can just go out for the bair... you just have to be quick with it.

I'm going to be playing my friend's Falco hopefully this weekend, I'll record some matches. Also, watch Cyphus vs Lee's falco. It'll help you get the idea of the Falco vs Doc matchup.

To be honest though, Doc vs Falco is only even on Fd. Everywhere else Falco has advantage... so keep that in mind.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
The phantasm isn't easy to cape/bair... or at least not for me.
I play against falco like 2 hours a day...meh, it gets easy.

@SPAWN: yeah, I've really worked on not sucking since CATACLYSM3. Thanks for your 10 seconds of advice then...I try to u-air a lot more now.
 

hhliveson

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
55
Location
cherry hill, nj
the best matchup ive ever seen is s-royal vs. forward. one thing that s-royal does is do a full jump nair and then fast fall onto falco. its one way of getting around the lasers. i try to pill drop right onto falco just so i can avoid lasers. oh, and of course abuse the fact that falco is a fast faller.
 

Mud Buddha

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
518
Also (although this can apply for many match-ups) Up-tilt can be used as a "Get the **** out of my grill" move. It hits early, and sticks around for quite a while (relatively speaking), obviously if they shine at the same time you start the move, it's going to lose, but theory fighter is the devil's advocate when it comes to analysing a Falco/Fox match-up.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
Joined
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Warner Robins, Georgia
The phantasm isn't easy to cape/bair... or at least not for me.
I quoted that whole line just because well, if ya dont do it, it really isnt easy.

I dont have too many problems caping it, but that's because I (used to) secondary falco, so I have a good idea of when to expect it.

The thing about caping the phantasm is you have to know it's coming, you really CANNOT react to it.

I know i make it sound pretty textbook "on paper", but it's the same thing as somebody edgeguarding you, and you either sweetspotting the edge or up+b'ing a lil early to hit them away from the ledge. It's easy for your opponent as long as they know what you're going to do, but if they're not ready, they'll most likely get caught.

___


 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
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San Francisco, CA
caping phantasm is unnecessarily difficult though

may as well ftilt/utilt/bair the phantasm to force them under the stage and then cape their up-b (MUCH easier)
 

maelstrom218

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
1,040
Location
Madison, WI
caping phantasm is unnecessarily difficult though

may as well ftilt/utilt/bair the phantasm to force them under the stage and then cape their up-b (MUCH easier)
Or sex kick. Sex kick actually works quite nicely, especially with the inverse knockback that Doc has.

Against Flaco, there are really only 2 things that you need to do, in general. First, you have to properly DI those drill shine/pillar pressure combos. DI'ing the shine is actually a relatively easy thing to do if you set your mind to it; most of Flaco's drillshine combos are very predictable and straightforward. Anticipating them shouldn't be an issue. You can also DI the drill, and possibly tech it as well, provided that your % is high enough. Proper DI goes a long way in ameliorating the amount of damage the Flaco inflicts through his drillshine crap.

Second, you need to respond properly to the lasers. Again, Flaco's SHB rushdown is very linear and very predictable, for the most part. The Flaco will usually SHB until he gets into jab/grab/smash range--at that point, when the laser stuns you, he's close enough to take advantage of the stun and pull off whatever attack he has in mind. The trick is to look for the laser that comes JUST BEFORE Flaco's attack/jab/grab/etc. If you do that, there's a pretty big chance that you can avoid his follow-up since there's no stun to take advantage of, since you avoided the laser. Do whatever you can to avoid that last laser (jump, shield, roll, spot-dodge, attack, whatever).

Those 2 things are the key to beating Flaco. Of course, you have other Doc-related essentials like u-throw chaingrabbing, decent edgeguarding, and the like, but proper DI of shine combos and avoiding that last laser during his SHB rushdown is the most important.
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
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Oct 8, 2005
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Slippi.gg
spaw#333
Well.. I just find it easier to ftilt Falco's phantasm... like if you cape and they upb instead of phantasming, I usually don't know what to do since my plan got messed up. That's why I just ftilt if I see them phantasm. I guess it's just a matter of practice, but I don't want to practice something new when I can just use my way and it'll work.

Also, my Doc has improved a lot vs Fox and Falco, lol. I used to be so baddd. I'm pretty decent thanks to me keep on telling Cyphus to get some vids of himself up vs Lee a while ago. Those really helped out my game. Cyphus is too good.

Cool, St Viers. I meant you have to upair a lot vs Peach since she pretty much can outprioritize all of Doc's moves. But, I guess upair is really good in general. Also, that person you played unfortunately has had a lot of Doc exp. Aka, he played my Doc with his Peach a good amount. I'll check out your vids once you get them up and critique. Just pm me whenever you put them up.

Edit: Listen to Maelstrom, he knows what he's saying.
 

Bullet Bill

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
3,734
Location
UK - Southampton
Or sex kick. Sex kick actually works quite nicely, especially with the inverse knockback that Doc has.

Against Flaco, there are really only 2 things that you need to do, in general. First, you have to properly DI those drill shine/pillar pressure combos. DI'ing the shine is actually a relatively easy thing to do if you set your mind to it; most of Flaco's drillshine combos are very predictable and straightforward. Anticipating them shouldn't be an issue. You can also DI the drill, and possibly tech it as well, provided that your % is high enough. Proper DI goes a long way in ameliorating the amount of damage the Flaco inflicts through his drillshine crap.

Second, you need to respond properly to the lasers. Again, Flaco's SHB rushdown is very linear and very predictable, for the most part. The Flaco will usually SHB until he gets into jab/grab/smash range--at that point, when the laser stuns you, he's close enough to take advantage of the stun and pull off whatever attack he has in mind. The trick is to look for the laser that comes JUST BEFORE Flaco's attack/jab/grab/etc. If you do that, there's a pretty big chance that you can avoid his follow-up since there's no stun to take advantage of, since you avoided the laser. Do whatever you can to avoid that last laser (jump, shield, roll, spot-dodge, attack, whatever).

Those 2 things are the key to beating Flaco. Of course, you have other Doc-related essentials like u-throw chaingrabbing, decent edgeguarding, and the like, but proper DI of shine combos and avoiding that last laser during his SHB rushdown is the most important.

Thanks for the advice
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 8, 2005
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Slippi.gg
spaw#333
That's awesome. We'll really get to see what to do against lasers in that. :)

Bob$, I'm so glad you're getting a whole bunch more vids of yourself up. Wanna get some up vs a Falcon or a Peach?... I have absolutely no idea how to fight them... mainly how to fight falcon.
 

Khaine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
370
Location
Mimm's,Yeovil,Somerset,England
like what has previously been said, interruption of the SHL is often enough to **** up any falco players timing, if only for a second or two.

chain grabbing is also a godsend in this matchup, its effectively a free 70% if you get it going right. i implore you to use this.

edgegaurding a falco is pretty simple to. single Bairs and capes are the obvious, and probably most effective choices here. although the sex kick is pretty darned useful, especially for interupting phantasm's if you have difficulty caping them (personally, i don't find it an issue, but then again, 4 out the 6 members of my crew play space animals as alts or mains).

you'll be at TNJ2, yes? if so, i'll gladly run through some stuff with you

BOB$: hardcore man, i look forward to them.

-x-
 

Bob Money

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
Messages
913
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Concord
yeh the matches are up already getyourtournamenton.com or youtube k bbill ill check out the PM
edit i didnt get the pm
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
The only benefit to caping it comes in when you basically get a dsmash if you time it right. *shrugs* Either way works, but ftilf is way safer.
 

jamminjohn

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
544
Location
Pittsburg, CA
Utilt is even better. If he phantasms a little higher, throw out a sex.

There are a lot of crappy falcos out there. I just learned this recently if you check out my "need help seriously" thread. Duck under his lasers if they're too high. See how he reacts to jabs and pills. Be prepared to stop doing things you like to do.
 
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