The Fairy with Fighting Spirit: Lip for Smash! *Play Panel de Pon on NSO!*

[PsychoJosh]

Well, an Assist Trophy would at least be a step up from where she is now, where she has nothing but an item and a reference in one of Kirby's attacks.

Personally, I'll take what I can get. But I do wish to see her in some form that isn't just a sticker.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Is it blasphemous if I just wanna see Lip as an Assist Trophy? Like, I would like to see her in Smash, but there's a ton of other characters I think should be fighters before her. But I seriously think she has some of the best potential as an Assist Trophy among the popular set of characters.

(I may be in the minority of players who actually LIKES Assist Trophies and doesn't see it as a snub...)

Yeah, I like Assist Trophies too. They give attention to the little guy. My two most wanted characters for Smash (Sukapon pre-4, Prince Sable pre-Ultimate) made it as Assists, and I couldn’t be happier about the attention.

Still, there’s no denying the love and care playable characters get (they almost always get a stage, alternate colors, and come with items, trophies, Assists and music), so if you really like a character or a series eventually you’re going to want them to be playable. It’s an inevitability, particularly with the ones that have so much moveset potential.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Still, there’s no denying the love and care playable characters get

Unless your name starts with 'G' and rhymes with 'manondorf'.

On that train of thought... how would you feel if someone like Ashley got in, but then an Echo Fighter Lip? They have similar builds and are both staff-wielding magic users. It's not unthinkable. But then she's essentially in the same situation as Falcondorf...

 

[FunAtParties]

I kinda hate assist trophies, and I never hope for them for characters I like. I feel like people think they're a good compromise when they're really not. I'm not hoping to see the character in Smash in any form, I wanna play them, that's why I support, that's why I'm interested. I guess it's better than nothing, but not by much.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Unless your name starts with 'G' and rhymes with 'manondorf'.

On that train of thought... how would you feel if someone like Ashley got in, but then an Echo Fighter Lip? They have similar builds and are both staff-wielding magic users. It's not unthinkable. But then she's essentially in the same situation as Falcondorf...

It'd be the opposite. No main protagonist has ever gotten in that was an echo fighter of somebody.

Ganondorf was an echo fighter previously but it seems they changed that in SSBU.

 

[N. Onymous]

Unless your name starts with 'G' and rhymes with 'manondorf'.

On that train of thought... how would you feel if someone like Ashley got in, but then an Echo Fighter Lip? They have similar builds and are both staff-wielding magic users. It's not unthinkable. But then she's essentially in the same situation as Falcondorf...

Yeah, if this happened at all, it would be Ashley being an Echo of Lip, since Ganondorf has precedence. But since Lip's moveset would very likely draw from Panel de Pon itself, that would leave Ashley stuck with a bunch of puzzle-themed attacks she has no business using. It's awkward, it's unfaithful, and it would upset her fans. They're better off being separate fighters.

I kinda hate assist trophies, and I never hope for them for characters I like. I feel like people think they're a good compromise when they're really not. I'm not hoping to see the character in Smash in any form, I wanna play them, that's why I support, that's why I'm interested. I guess it's better than nothing, but not by much.

Hence why I'm always sure to say I want Lip to be playable first and foremost.

 

[FunAtParties]

Hence why I'm always sure to say I want Lip to be playable first and foremost.

Yeah no I get you, just saying I doubt I'll be even a little happy for a Lip AT. Not happy with really any of the other AT's. Kinda furious about the Bomberman one

 

[『SwingingStar』]

If they were to try making either Ashley or Lip a clone, they'd be stuck with some nonsense moves for either of them. Ashley's an "Eye of the Newt" sort of witch, and Lip's more likely to appear in a Sakura Card Captor cameo. What they could do, is share animation/rigging between each other, not unlike how Jiggly and Kirby shared moves in 64, or how in Brawl Wolf and Sonic shared a couple of animations, for example.

Since we're talking Ashley, I said she's a potential Kid Hero on the RTC thread, but now that I'm looking it up, some site claims she's 18, other's 15, what's up with that?

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Yeah no I get you, just saying I doubt I'll be even a little happy for a Lip AT. Not happy with really any of the other AT's. Kinda furious about the Bomberman one

Well, I mean, that sounds like your problem right there. If you don’t even like the IDEA of Assist Trophies, then of course you wouldn’t be happy for one.

I understand where you’re coming from: being an AT means not being playable and if that’s the only thing you care about from Smash, then I get it.

But don’t act like that’s the only thing ANYONE should care about. I’ve always liked games with summoning effects. Calling in a powerful creature or another ally for a quick attack just always resonated with me. And I think Lip’s puzzle-based fighting style could really make for a single poignant attack and really brings to mind summoning-type mechanics to me. So I think she’d make a really great Assist Trophy concept.

She could be expanded to a unique playable fighter as well. I like most of the concepts in the OP. But I think those are stretching the flavor her home game appearances whereas she suits the summoning archetype / obstacle creation aesthetic perfectly.

I doubt I’ll change your mind on how you feel about ATs, but hopefully you can at least see the appeal, even if you don’t like them yourself?

 

[11th]

I actually think Nintendo as a whole is ashamed of Panepon and the fairies now, only putting out a few rereleases or embedded minigames every few years to give the fans what they want without actually giving them what they want. It's sad. I just wish we knew the reason why they're not doing anything with the IP anymore. Maybe I'll send them a letter about it. We all should, actually.

WMG: Nintendo is ashamed because of the reskins and rebranding, not because they think the games or character aren't viable. Doing something bigger with her would mean admitting that they were wrong.

I've been lurking for a bit, and I guess that now is as good a time as any to throw my hat into the ring. I've wanted to see something with Lip get in since Smash 4 pre-release info started coming out, but regret to say that I didn't use my ballot vote for her. (Or anyone, technically -- I figured that she had no real chance, and didn't think the next game would start production so soon after 4 ended, so I did something odd and sent a message to the ballot processors to thank them.)

While it would be amazing to see her reach playable status, I'd be content with an Assist Trophy to help raise awareness for now. Even a simple normal trophy appearance would be helpful, if still somewhat disappointing. PdP is a game that I grew up with, even if I didn't know it, and I dumped a lot of time into PPC specifically because my GameBoy Color went everywhere with me, though we also had TA. Over the past few years I've dug into the history of the games on and off, and to see that the original production team was so passionate about them and that they never got a fair chance to shine stings, especially since I myself am an animator and character artist who understands how they felt. To be a bit frank: Having someone dismiss something you're passionate about sucks.

The game -- and Lip -- deserve another shot, and if anything could make that happen, it would be Smash.

 

[TFree Mario's best friend]

I found this on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyOOrKdtwE

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Well, I mean, that sounds like your problem right there. If you don’t even like the IDEA of Assist Trophies, then of course you wouldn’t be happy for one.

I understand where you’re coming from: being an AT means not being playable and if that’s the only thing you care about from Smash, then I get it.

But don’t act like that’s the only thing ANYONE should care about. I’ve always liked games with summoning effects. Calling in a powerful creature or another ally for a quick attack just always resonated with me. And I think Lip’s puzzle-based fighting style could really make for a single poignant attack and really brings to mind summoning-type mechanics to me. So I think she’d make a really great Assist Trophy concept.

My overall pet peeve with Assist Trophies is that, compared to overall summoning character aspect, they're, in the end, treated more or less as like cameo-glorified Pokeballs at best (though with more complex A.I and probably stronger too depending on the moves), and are all very random to receive.

They certainly belong on making Smash look more festive, but at the same, Assists feel also dumbing a lot characters' legacies down just for that and even anger some fans to the point of memetic status (like with certain purple wonder I know).

I also don't know what to feel about the fact that ATs also include the mooks from represented series as well. It kind of confirms the overall premise about ATs just being "whoever Nintendo-characters they find interesting to be messing around in the battle", where the fan-favorites not deemed playable enough can be comfortably thrown to as well. It doesn't make Assist-status look that much great (to me at least) in the long run - hence the "item"-comparisons.

Whether they get given new attention through this Assist-status, tends to kind of fluctuate. I think likes of Sukapon or Prince Sable (and probably by that extend, Lip) are fine, since they're from one-off games, so them being cameos in Smash is adequate enough for them - they are relatively easy to explore and learn about in fans' eyes.
But to those still popping in new games or even being asked for revivals, it gets much hairier when they have long-awaiting fans that now and then search, or even receive some of them being noted by Nintendo, and clamor them coming back to limelight in some way - with Smash Bros being best vehicle for that (Takamaru, probably Isaac, etc.)

On that end, Assist aren't really given much ways to have anymore presence in the game, or even series as a whole - since all focus is on, *ahem*, the playable fighters. The best you can see them item fights within the multiplayer, or single-player modes - which has me usually forget they're in the game. (Though the less I'll be reminded of how Starfy's a complete joke today thanks to Smash Bros, the better.)

In the end, that's what they end up being - glorified cameo items that might have varying degrees of grown gaming community awareness, but to me, the concept itself isn't exactly "amazing" to write home about in the long run, instead being this generic, safe way for Sakurai to earn awareness points while also being able to dismiss on these fan-faves into "summon items" instead, despite the iconic moves and legacy & fan following they have.

While I know this wouldn't remotely fit to Smash Bros's nature, I sometimes can't help but think how we could have a system where you could use Assist like in Marvel-series or similar fighting games to dish out attacks or two, making them feel part of the fight in a regular fashion instead of being relocated to cameo appearances not - not only it'd probably mean less fluff-like mook Assists we see in the game to muddle up the glory offan-favorites to feel just "simple cameos" like them at times, but it'd also allow the fans of these characters still be able to use them in battle whenever they like, and have interesting ways of utility, depending on the character.

Just my views on the matter.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I believe that Lip's chances increased with Takamaru and several others deconfirmed

 

[FunAtParties]

Well, I mean, that sounds like your problem right there. If you don’t even like the IDEA of Assist Trophies, then of course you wouldn’t be happy for one.

I understand where you’re coming from: being an AT means not being playable and if that’s the only thing you care about from Smash, then I get it.

But don’t act like that’s the only thing ANYONE should care about. I’ve always liked games with summoning effects. Calling in a powerful creature or another ally for a quick attack just always resonated with me. And I think Lip’s puzzle-based fighting style could really make for a single poignant attack and really brings to mind summoning-type mechanics to me. So I think she’d make a really great Assist Trophy concept.

She could be expanded to a unique playable fighter as well. I like most of the concepts in the OP. But I think those are stretching the flavor her home game appearances whereas she suits the summoning archetype / obstacle creation aesthetic perfectly.

I doubt I’ll change your mind on how you feel about ATs, but hopefully you can at least see the appeal, even if you don’t like them yourself?

Look I get it, people like AT's, but I'm not gonna tiptoe around it anymore, I hate them, and let's be real here even if you like AT's no one comes to these places to support characters to be them, or Pokeballs, random moves, or to be part of a Final Smash. Yeah some people are fine with any representation, and cool that's good for you, but I get kinda tired of this defeatist **** where people who diligently support characters for years just become content with some dumbed down version of what they wanted.

Imo a good character for an AT's is something like the Burrowing Snagret. No chance of being playable, but also a character that gives a taste of the series it comes from. Same with something like a Metroid. They make sense. You want secondary characters for Panel de Pon as an AT? Works for me, but leave Lip out of it.

I'm never excited to see a character with the ability to be playable to be relegated to AT status. It makes idiots think that it's all the character deserves, and unless people start an uproar the team becomes content with them in that spot, and they never get a chance for anything better, which is what always happens because as I just said a large amount of fans think that AT means they aren't good enough to be playable. It's a viscous circle. AT's are just bad news for any character that you want to be playable eventually because it's "the next best thing" and then that's that. And before someone brings up Little Mac; he was the exception, not the rule. Dude got a brand new game and an overhauled design.

So no, totally not supporting Lip making it in as an AT. Sorry but we're just not on the same page.

 

[N. Onymous]

I'm with you. No one outright wants the characters they're supporting to wind up assist trophies. It's just not doing the characters justice--Takamaru doesn't use a ninjato, Starfy isn't useless, Isaac does a lot more than just push people around with giant magical hands--and though I may not personally support any of these characters, I know there are plenty of people who are upset that their assists are selling them short and wish they could be playable instead, and I want those people to be happy too. I personally know a guy who was absolutely crushed when Takamaru was confirmed to return as an Assist Trophy in SSBU. We're not a community who should get complacent and resign ourselves to the "fact" that Lip isn't anything more than assist material. She's got so much potential that wouldn't be realized if she was just an AT! We've got to make people realize that!

For a Panel de Pon Assist Trophy, I'd go with either Windy or Flare. I wrote up a concept for Windy earlier in the thread IIRC.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'm going to bet that was ASW lmao.

It's just so weird to me that people are getting hyped about them now when they've practically been a death sentence since the beginning. Last thing I want for my characters is for them to have a "place in Smash" as an AT. I'm a Starfy fan, I know it doesn't just get better, and no Assists just ain't a suitable compromise for the real thing.

I know it sounds like I'm being pessimistic, but looking at the whole Waluigi situation and tell me that supporting an AT makes them have a chance. Plus you can't win after, you still wanna support your character to be playable after being revealed as an AT? Guess what? You are now considered entitled by half the fanbase. Essentially **** you for not being happy with less.

 

[Slyshock]

It'd be hard for me to not be at least a bit satisfied with an assist trophy, since if nothing else it'd be the first time Lip made a proper appearance overseas.

If you really want a nightmare scenario, imagine if Lip made it in as an assist trophy and the localization team did this:

 

[MysticKnives]

It'd be hard for me to not be at least a bit satisfied with an assist trophy, since if nothing else it'd be the first time Lip made a proper appearance overseas.

If you really want a nightmare scenario, imagine if Lip made it in as an assist trophy and the localization team did this:

That’d be pretty cruel

 

[N. Onymous]

Don't even joke about that this is not ok

 

[DjinnandTonic]

It's just so weird to me that people are getting hyped about them now when they've practically been a death sentence since the beginning. Last thing I want for my characters is for them to have a "place in Smash" as an AT. I'm a Starfy fan, I know it doesn't just get better, and no Assists just ain't a suitable compromise for the real thing.

I know it sounds like I'm being pessimistic, but looking at the whole Waluigi situation and tell me that supporting an AT makes them have a chance. Plus you can't win after, you still wanna support your character to be playable after being revealed as an AT? Guess what? You are now considered entitled by half the fanbase. Essentially **** you for not being happy with less.

You're putting a lot of emphasis on what Assist Trophies do to the perception of the character by other fans. You really shouldn't care so much what other fans think. If a character is genuinely popular and genuinely a good fit for being a playable fighter in Sakurai's eyes, they are going to get playable status. An Assist Trophy doesn't really have that much influence over it.

Assist Trophies always feel like more of a bonus than anything to me. Two of my favorite characters, Lyn from FE and Isaac from Golden Sun made it as Assist Trophies and I was really happy. For some contrast though, Lyn has skyrocketed in popularity to the point people wanted her as playable, and I... kinda disagree. Her moveset isn't all that varied, particularly compared to other FE characters. Isaac has a lot of moveset potential, but is still basically unknown outside of internet circles that like Smash and oldschool JRPGs specifically. They work well as Assist Trophies, and I wish Isaac had returned for Smash4 as an Assist, honestly.

Perhaps wanting Lip as an Assist more than a Playable Fighter makes me 'not enough of a Lip fan'? But that seems like unneccessary gatekeeping...

 

[GoodGrief741]

You're putting a lot of emphasis on what Assist Trophies do to the perception of the character by other fans. You really shouldn't care so much what other fans think. If a character is genuinely popular and genuinely a good fit for being a playable fighter in Sakurai's eyes, they are going to get playable status. An Assist Trophy doesn't really have that much influence over it.

Assist Trophies always feel like more of a bonus than anything to me. Two of my favorite characters, Lyn from FE and Isaac from Golden Sun made it as Assist Trophies and I was really happy. For some contrast though, Lyn has skyrocketed in popularity to the point people wanted her as playable, and I... kinda disagree. Her moveset isn't all that varied, particularly compared to other FE characters. Isaac has a lot of moveset potential, but is still basically unknown outside of internet circles that like Smash and oldschool JRPGs specifically. They work well as Assist Trophies, and I wish Isaac had returned for Smash4 as an Assist, honestly.

Perhaps wanting Lip as an Assist more than a Playable Fighter makes me 'not enough of a Lip fan'? But that seems like unneccessary gatekeeping...

What other fans think does matter, though. If people see that Starfy isn’t actually a joke, they might actually start vocally and loudly supporting him, and he might make it as playable. We got characters like Little Mac and Ridley in Smash, and people are expecting many fan favorites will finally level up this time, so if you want your character in, being a fan favorite is the best way in (and for certain characters like K Rool and Geno, the only way).

I really can’t agree with your comments about Lyn not having enough moveset potential (to me she has more potential than any FE character barring Corrin), and especially about Isaac not deserving to be in because he isn’t that well known (his games shipped more than 2m copies, and remain critical darlings to this day).

 

[N. Onymous]

Perhaps wanting Lip as an Assist more than a Playable Fighter makes me 'not enough of a Lip fan'? But that seems like unneccessary gatekeeping...

No one here thinks that. It does seem like you're a bit of an outlier for wanting Lip as an assist trophy more than being playable, though. I get where you're coming from, but for a lot of us, we want her to be playable first and foremost. Really the one or two moves that an Assist Trophy would give her just wouldn't do her justice. There's so much potential in her character and moveset that hasn't been realized by...really, anyone. Not Sora, not Sakurai, not Nintendo, not any of the various fan game creators. We're all hoping Smash Ultimate will be her time to shine.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

What other fans think does matter, though. If people see that Starfy isn’t actually a joke, they might actually start vocally and loudly supporting him, and he might make it as playable. We got characters like Little Mac and Ridley in Smash, and people are expecting many fan favorites will finally level up this time, so if you want your character in, being a fan favorite is the best way in (and for certain characters like K Rool and Geno, the only way).

I really can’t agree with your comments about Lyn not having enough moveset potential (to me she has more potential than any FE character barring Corrin), and especially about Isaac not deserving to be in because he isn’t that well known (his games shipped more than 2m copies, and remain critical darlings to this day).

Pretty sure Little Mac and Ridley didn't become fan favorites BECAUSE of their appearances in Smash? They were already popular. And I don't think Starfy was a name that I'd ever come across until he became an Assist Trophy. As for Lip, she is prettttty obscure, even to me as someone who lives in Japan and likes puzzle games... An Assist Trophy would be a huge boost in notability for her, similar to how it was for characters like Starfy and Isaac.

On that note, I would love to see both Lyn and Isaac as playable, more than a lot of the other front runners for newcomers this time. But I feel like there's a 'perfect balance' for crossover games that give a proper porportion of representation based on a franchise's number of titles and notability in the history of gaming culture. Lyn and Isaac fall pretty low on the list compared to a lot of the others, so I'm happy to see them represented as Assist Trophies so that more prominent characters can properly represent more notable series.

No one here thinks that. It does seem like you're a bit of an outlier for wanting Lip as an assist trophy more than being playable, though. I get where you're coming from, but for a lot of us, we want her to be playable first and foremost. Really the one or two moves that an Assist Trophy would give her just wouldn't do her justice. There's so much potential in her character and moveset that hasn't been realized by...really, anyone. Not Sora, not Sakurai, not Nintendo, not any of the various fan game creators. We're all hoping Smash Ultimate will be her time to shine.

With regards to why I think some characters would make better Assists than Fighters, I think it boils down to how I like to see Playable Fighters represented in crossover games.

I personally don't like it when the game has to make up a bunch of moves for a character to viable. Duck Hunt Dog is funny and historically important, but I absolutely loathe how he's basically a completely made up fighter, despite owning and playing Duck Hunt for hours as a kid. ROB, Game&Watch, and the Mii Fighters all kind of fall into this same area. And characters like Fox, Falcon/dorf, Jigglypuff, who do basically nothing that accurately reflects their home series are just terrible to me. (I'd make them all Assists if the game was being rebooted.)

I see one or two cool ideas for a special move for Lip in this topic, and that just screams 'Assist Trophy' to me. Even if you manage to come up with four really cool ideas for a special moveset, she either won't play much like Panel de Pon or it'll be a poorly-matched moveset for a fighting game like Smash. You yourself said that No One Has Realized Her Potential... That sounds more like 'No One Has Made A Moveset For Her Ever'. If she doesn't have a moveset in her home game, she doesn't have anything to really base a full Smash moveset around. (Or rather, she does, but then she's Duck Hunt Dog.)

 

[N. Onymous]

I personally don't like it when the game has to make up a bunch of moves for a character to viable. Duck Hunt Dog is funny and historically important, but I absolutely loathe how he's basically a completely made up fighter, despite owning and playing Duck Hunt for hours as a kid. ROB, Game&Watch, and the Mii Fighters all kind of fall into this same area. And characters like Fox, Falcon/dorf, Jigglypuff, who do basically nothing that accurately reflects their home series are just terrible to me. (I'd make them all Assists if the game was being rebooted.)

I see one or two cool ideas for a special move for Lip in this topic, and that just screams 'Assist Trophy' to me. Even if you manage to come up with four really cool ideas for a special moveset, she either won't play much like Panel de Pon or it'll be a poorly-matched moveset for a fighting game like Smash. You yourself said that No One Has Realized Her Potential... That sounds more like 'No One Has Made A Moveset For Her Ever'. If she doesn't have a moveset in her home game, she doesn't have anything to really base a full Smash moveset around. (Or rather, she does, but then she's Duck Hunt Dog.)

Duck Hunt (Duo)'s moveset isn't made up at all, besides their neutral attacks which are going to be more generic as a matter of principle. They're all based on NES Zapper games: the neutral B is the can from Hogan's Alley, the side-B is a clay pigeon from Duck Hunt, the down-B is the eponymous Wild Gunmen, and the up-B--well, isn't it natural that ducks would fly? R.O.B. (except for the disk, but he's based more on the R.O.B. enemies from Subspace Emissary anyway) I'll give you, but Mr. Game & Watch, love-letter to the Game & Watch series that he is, would feel incomplete without a bunch of attacks sourced from the various G&W titles that have been released throughout the years. As for the Mii Fighters... well, given the build-your-own-fighter concept, I figure their moveset couldn't really be anything except made-up.

A fighter doesn't necessarily have to play like they do in their home series, either. Captain Falcon doesn't play like a racing game, Fox and company don't play like a rail shooter, Inkling doesn't play like a third-person shooter, and Pikachu and the rest don't play like a JRPG. Characters like Mega Man and Ryu are more the exception than the rule.

I don't see Lip having a Duck Hunt-style "problem", either. Between mechanics and lore, there's so much to base a moveset off of. Just my Composite Moveset alone has her wand (based on her own wand and the Lip's Stick item), the cursor, the Watabou (fluffy critter from the game's title screen), and garbage blocks. Many other movesets that have been posted in this thread feature panels, and there's even been a suggestion for a Final Smash where she calls in her friends to deliver a slew of attacks. There's tons of potential inherent to her character. I just don't know if you're seeing it.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Pretty sure Little Mac and Ridley didn't become fan favorites BECAUSE of their appearances in Smash? They were already popular. And I don't think Starfy was a name that I'd ever come across until he became an Assist Trophy. As for Lip, she is prettttty obscure, even to me as someone who lives in Japan and likes puzzle games... An Assist Trophy would be a huge boost in notability for her, similar to how it was for characters like Starfy and Isaac.

What I meant was that we got Little Mac and Ridley due to their fanbases being large and loud, so for that you do need other fans to agree with you about a character.

Assist Trophies are kind of double-edged blades in some regard. Yeah, they propel otherwise obscure characters like Starfy and Jill to a wider audience, but you are showing cool and interesting characters to people and then asking them not to get too interested. It’s only natural if somebody looks at, say, Sukapon, and they like the AT, they’ll look into the character and realize they could very well be playable. Most Assist Trophies already showcase moveset potential in their moves themselves.

I guess while we might disagree on what characters deserve to be playable, we’re on the same page in regards to not minding Assist Trophies. Still, in my mind the ultimate goal is always playable. Pretty bitter about Bomberman too

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Duck Hunt (Duo)'s moveset isn't made up at all, They're all based on NES Zapper games:

I understand where it comes from, but none of that is something that the Duck Hunt dog actually does in his own game... It's the best possible version of a Duck Hunt dog character that anyone could hope for, I admit. But... that just tells me that Duck Hunt shouldn't have become a playable fighter in the first place. I worry that Lip would feel the same way for me. But I do like her and would love to see her in Smash. I just feel her skillset suits the more limited appearance of an Assist Trophy since then it wouldn't have so much made-up stuff or a hodgepodge of different games' references. (Not a huge fan of Villager's Balloon Fight UpB either...)

As for the Mii Fighters... well, given the build-your-own-fighter concept, I figure their moveset couldn't really be anything except made-up.

I find it amusing that the Miis actually had a small bit of story (that they based a whole stage around on 3DS even!) where they were given a magic-based moveset based on their color-coding... and yet there's no Magic-based Mii Fighter....

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding Assist Trophies, I think it's only natural that most people want to have their character playable, but simply due to sheer number of viable choices and limited dev time that's impossible, so they still are a good way of representing games and characters, while not needing as much effort as a full blown fighter. And personally, I'd take a well made Assist Trophy over a badly represented fighter any day. Looking at you, Little Mac and Melee Ganondorf. Though admittedly, not every Assist Trophy is good either. While I'm glad Stafy is sticking around, I still hate that they made him a joke. He's basically an inferior Marill.

Just my 2 cents on this matter.

I understand where it comes from, but none of that is something that the Duck Hunt dog actually does in his own game... It's the best possible version of a Duck Hunt dog character that anyone could hope for, I admit. But... that just tells me that Duck Hunt shouldn't have become a playable fighter in the first place.

I disagree with that, I think Duck Hunt Duo is perfect the way they are. Sure, if you only look at Duck Hunt, they don't feel faithful, but the Smash character is more of a representation of the NES Zapper series as a whole and that's what makes them so great. Duck Hunt is definitely the most popular Zapper game, coming packaged with Super Mario Bros, so it makes sense to pick the dog as the face. In that sense, DHD is more like Mr. Game & Watch, not representing a single game, but a series and I think the devs did a great job of capturing that, not only having attacks that reference other games, but also the actual player shooting the gun with the Smash attacks.

 

[N. Onymous]

But I do like her and would love to see her in Smash. I just feel her skillset suits the more limited appearance of an Assist Trophy since then it wouldn't have so much made-up stuff or a hodgepodge of different games' references.

None of the movesets I've seen posted in this thread (or the last one for that matter) have to make anything up to give a fun, viable moveset. All of them are taken either from the lore/universe of Panel de Pon or from the gameplay mechanics, besides the neutral attacks which are as said going to be more generic as a matter of principle. Nothing made up, nothing lifted from other Nintendo puzzle games. Just Lip being Lip--and that's just what she should be.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Well, I can't say I've changed my mind, but the passion on display here has certainly showed me how much Lip's fans want her to be playable rather than an Assist Trophy! (I admit that a part of me likes the idea of -at least- an Assist Trophy because then modders can use the skin to make fanmade playable Lip.)

 

[N. Onymous]

Well, I can't say I've changed my mind, but the passion on display here has certainly showed me how much Lip's fans want her to be playable rather than an Assist Trophy!

We're a relatively small group, but we're nothing if not passionate about our girl.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

We're a relatively small group, but we're nothing if not passionate about our girl.

To me, personally, I want Lip because of my love and passion for the game series in itself. The formula is much more fun than Tetris, Candy Crush, Puyo Puyo and Dr. Mario's formulas. Lip is the front figure of the original, and that's why I pay her that much respect, plus, the concept is not done, a huge advantage of moveset potential, and that she would fill some roles into one. So, I'd love my favourite Puzzle formula represented in my favourite crossover game.

 

[smashkirby]

While I know this wouldn't remotely fit to Smash Bros's nature, I sometimes can't help but think how we could have a system where you could use Assist like in Marvel-series or similar fighting games to dish out attacks or two, making them feel part of the fight in a regular fashion instead of being relocated to cameo appearances not - not only it'd probably mean less fluff-like mook Assists we see in the game to muddle up the glory offan-favorites to feel just "simple cameos" like them at times, but it'd also allow the fans of these characters still be able to use them in battle whenever they like, and have interesting ways of utility, depending on the character.

You know, during Smash 4's development, I thought the concept you just described was going to be a reality via Smash 4's All-Star mode due to a (possibly mistranslated) line from the Smash 4 Direct in April 2014. Imagine my initial hype to see such a thing happen (and later disappointment over it NOT happening).

 

[N. Onymous]

It doesn't really matter because they're all fake anyway, but the amount of leaks I see that don't have Lip on them makes me a little sad. People need to have more faith in her.

 

[Siggy88]

It doesn't really matter because they're all fake anyway, but the amount of leaks I see that don't have Lip on them makes me a little sad. People need to have more faith in her.

Most leak either have Simon Belmont or K. Rool and occasionally Ashley in them. But the one that always irks me is the "Dixie is a Diddy echo fighter" one. I guess I just find the idea of Dixie using Diddy's moveset without using anything that she's known for a little weird. But the most damning evidence is that they apparently have all the future "DLC" characters already planned. Corrin was the last minute addition if that datamine is to be trusted, so things are subjected to change.

Anyways, the only notable "leak" that Lip has been featured on is the ballot results leak, and we all know that was fake. Maybe the fact that nobody really expects her to be playable will allow the developers to pull a fast one on all the leakers. I mean nobody expected ROB for Brawl and Duck Hunt for 4, not even the Gematsu leak.

 

[Takasmash]

OMG Lip has ponytail too just like Dixie Kong what if that leak is referring to Lip. I'm overthinking I know but its possible.

 

[FunAtParties]

I don't buy any leak that puts in random codenames, especially ones that can be interpretted in multiple ways so they can be right for a various number of situations.

If I say "Pirate" that can apply to KKR, Shantae, Tetra, or even Captain Syrup, doesn't mean I got any info, I'm just hedging my bets and getting people riled up.

 

[Takasmash]

I love to see Shantae to be the indies rep I know that Shovel Knight is so popular but I got one counter argument no two number 1 shovel knight is everywhere and he's appearing a fighting not Shantae. I like Shovel Knight but h's Link inside with a Shovel. Shantae is so inserting shes a genie who can say no to that and we dont have a genie in smash. And shes retro classic not as Lip but she could reference the Gameboy Color era.

 

[N. Onymous]

I don't buy any leak that puts in random codenames, especially ones that can be interpretted in multiple ways so they can be right for a various number of situations.

If I say "Pirate" that can apply to KKR, Shantae, Tetra, or even Captain Syrup, doesn't mean I got any info, I'm just hedging my bets and getting people riled up.

Most "leaks" are just glorified roster wishlists, as I've said.

Any legitimate leaker wouldn't make you play guessing games to figure out a game's roster. Allegedly it's because they're afraid of getting caught revealing confidential information, but here's the thing: Real leakers don't give a damn about being caught. They just post their data, whether that's video proof or just a straight list of factual information--but it's always general information about the game, no insight into development, no information on DLC, just vague truths--and then buzz off. This is what Gematsu did, it's what the ESRB leaker did, it's what the Pokemon Let's Go leaker did, and it's what any legitimate Ultimate leaker will do (if there's a legitimate leak). None of this "Blunderbuss Van Helsing Pinocchio" nonsense.

 

[Domino11332]

I definitely support Lip! It would be really cool to have her in and I think she is undoubtedly the best choice for a retro rep this time around.

 

[Deleted member]

Surprise? I did finish the hair, including the texture work on it. I also improved the swirl a bit and made the hair in general a bit brighter. In fact, I think the actual model is done at this point, only texture work is left to do.

Spoiler: Closeup

Also, just for fun, a comparison between the older model from last year compared to the touched up version from this year with the smaller, more chubby body and new hair. I think it's a vast improvement. Texture work is obviously unfinished and I noticed only after rendering that I had the wrong leg texture applied.

Spoiler