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The Fairy with Fighting Spirit: Lip for Smash! *Play Panel de Pon on NSO!*

PsychoJosh

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Spawning a ramp was my idea for F-Type's Up+B in Smash, based on the Stunt Trax mode.

If we're gonna get a vehicle-based fighter I'd rather have F-Type over Excite Biker, because the idea of just playing as a literal living vehicle is more fun to me than just playing as some dude on a bike.
 

GoodGrief741

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I'm all for weird ideas, but I don't understand the waveracer guy. Yeah, Captain Falcon is just a racer too in his game, but he's a high speed futuristic racer, who is also a bounty hunter. To my knowledge, Ryoto or whatever doesn't really have that background. I'm not saying he couldn't work, but I don't understand wanting a generic looking human character that rides a jetski. Maybe it's just me.
A lot of people remember Wave Race fondly, and Smash has not been kind to that series (the whole Nintendo 64 era, S&P, 1080, those franchises have been freaking snubbed).
 

StormC

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Not gonna lie, I kinda love the idea of a Wave Race fighter, if they find a way to implement a water-based moveset in it.
 

FunAtParties

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A lot of people remember Wave Race fondly, and Smash has not been kind to that series (the whole Nintendo 64 era, S&P, 1080, those franchises have been freaking snubbed).
I remember Waverace fondly too, but I just don't understand wanting a playable character from there. Some franchises just don't need anything playable, and imo waverace is one of them. Stage makes sense to me, but that's about it. I'm not trying to be mean to the Waverace supporters, so I kinda just wanna stop talking about it.

And there's better fits for a water-based moveset out there... cough cough
 
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GoodGrief741

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I remember Waverace fondly too, but I just don't understand wanting a playable character from there. Some franchises just don't need anything playable, and imo waverace is one of them. Stage makes sense to me, but that's about it. I'm not trying to be mean to the Waverace supporters, so I kinda just wanna stop talking about it.

And there's better fits for a water-based moveset out there... cough cough
Oh it’s alright, you weren’t being mean at all! It’s just, when you give nothing to a fanbase for all these years, they’re gonna try to shoot the moon, you know? It’s not like anyone in the Smash community is ever content with anything but a playable character.

(What’s going on with Starfy is criminal btw)
 

FunAtParties

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Oh it’s alright, you weren’t being mean at all! It’s just, when you give nothing to a fanbase for all these years, they’re gonna try to shoot the moon, you know? It’s not like anyone in the Smash community is ever content with anything but a playable character.

(What’s going on with Starfy is criminal btw)
Tides are kinda changing, I was really surprised to see a Sukapon AT, so I feel like a lot of franchises will get a little something something this time around.


Hey I'm all for Elias being playable but I think Lip would have to become a playable fighter first.



View attachment 150030




Or were you referring to Neris? Cause that would be silly, Neris is a mermaid.
lmao
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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I'm all for weird ideas, but I don't understand the waveracer guy. Yeah, Captain Falcon is just a racer too in his game, but he's a high speed futuristic racer, who is also a bounty hunter. To my knowledge, Ryoto or whatever doesn't really have that background. I'm not saying he couldn't work, but I don't understand wanting a generic looking human character that rides a jetski. Maybe it's just me.
Yeah I feel like games such as 1080p Snowboarding, Eternal Darkness and Wave Race would work best as stages
 

N. Onymous

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Well, this got off-topic quickly.

PsychoJosh mentioned in a Discord server I'm in that he feels most of the movesets that have been posted in this thread are more focused on being cute and representative of Panel de Pon's gameplay than on being actually functional as a fighter. He says he feels things would be better served if you were playing a more improvised version of Panepon on the stage: say, she creates panels with her neutral special that can be stacked three high, which cause different effects while out, like the ones I have listed for Lip's Final Smash in my composite moveset (which is probably overdue for an update considering Final Smashes work differently this time around). It would be possible to select which panel would be created by holding down the B button like Pac-Man's neutral, but the order of colors would be random so you'd have to pay attention to get the panels you want. Hitting a panel stack of like colors with her Smash attack would destroy it, causing explosions that damage nearby fighters and creating "chains", which would power up her Garbage Block special, which would work as he described earlier in the thread.

Thoughts? Personally, I really like this idea. It gets the gist of Panepon's gameplay across while also providing a moveset that's fun to play.
 

Takasmash

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Will it make sense to add Arle Nadja over Lip I'm not sure how will I feel about it I will be happy because we finally have a puzzle rep in smash.
 
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N. Onymous

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I have no doubts that Lip will appear in Smash Bros. (at least as a playable character) before Arle. Sega already has two characters in the game, and I don't see them getting a third.
 
D

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Wait, Samurai Goroh is an Assist Trophy again? Man, that sucks. Well, I'm still hoping for Black Shadow being a sword-less Ganon clone then. Maybe a Ganon/Falcon hybrid, given both of them got different attacks over the years, Shadow could take inspiration from N64 Falcon, like using an uppercut instead of that double kick as his up-smash. I mean, hey, we have three Links now, so why not.

Also I'm all for Arle being playable, the we could hopefully have a Lip, Arle and Dr. Mario fight. For good measure add in a Tetris stage and it's perfect. Though if she gets in, I hope they won't use the Fewer style, really don't like that one at all.

And there's better fits for a water-based moveset out there... cough cough
Like those guys?
:007::4greninja:
 

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Spawning a ramp was my idea for F-Type's Up+B in Smash, based on the Stunt Trax mode.

If we're gonna get a vehicle-based fighter I'd rather have F-Type over Excite Biker, because the idea of just playing as a literal living vehicle is more fun to me than just playing as some dude on a bike.
Didn't Sega do something similar with the Hornet car? Though Im' assuming you want a car to fight like a car rather than that strange floating wheel business.
 
D

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That's correct, the Hornet (Daytona USA) was an unlockable fighter in Fighters Megamix.
 

BluePikmin11

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Personally, I like to imagine that Sakurai internally in his mind would not want to add Arle before Lip. I think he would rather give attention to Panel de Pon first before giving Puyo Puyo recognition, just to prevent PDP from falling to further obscurity. :p
 
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Souldin

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Well, this got off-topic quickly.

PsychoJosh mentioned in a Discord server I'm in that he feels most of the movesets that have been posted in this thread are more focused on being cute and representative of Panel de Pon's gameplay than on being actually functional as a fighter. He says he feels things would be better served if you were playing a more improvised version of Panepon on the stage: say, she creates panels with her neutral special that can be stacked three high, which cause different effects while out, like the ones I have listed for Lip's Final Smash in my composite moveset (which is probably overdue for an update considering Final Smashes work differently this time around). It would be possible to select which panel would be created by holding down the B button like Pac-Man's neutral, but the order of colors would be random so you'd have to pay attention to get the panels you want. Hitting a panel stack of like colors with her Smash attack would destroy it, causing explosions that damage nearby fighters and creating "chains", which would power up her Garbage Block special, which would work as he described earlier in the thread.

Thoughts? Personally, I really like this idea. It gets the gist of Panepon's gameplay across while also providing a moveset that's fun to play.
I was actually just popping on over to check out the move-set ideas here, when I see this more recent comments of yours.
It's been a while since I've sat down to think about move-sets in detail, but in terms of concepts, I really like the idea of Lip having her moves represent her puzzle series. That said, I feel all of that can be accomplished with her Special moves, freeing up her flower princess background, Lip-Stick, watabou and such for her A moves.​
Just roughly throwing out ideas, her specials could range from the move obvious ideas of her Garbage Block and her Quick Swap, to having the panels rise up beneath her as her recovery (much like you can accelerate the speed in which the panels rise up in Puzzle League games). An idea I like is having Lip able to clear lines of panels (possibly the same ones created with her Up B, and then changed with Quick Swap or A moves) to boost her Garbage Block and potentially other moves... but I've yet to think of way that won't result in Lip players camping in a corner to raise Panel stacks and then match them.​
In any case, as for the ideas suggested here (I wanted to suggest my own ideas without muddying with newer and likely better suggestions):
That's an interesting idea; certainly is a simpler way of establishing the puzzle mechanic. A neat idea would be to have the varying effects of the different colour stack combinations be references to the item blocks in Planet Puzzle League (so Fever, Reflect, Fog, etc.) I'm not completely sold on it though, perhaps having a bit of difficulty visualising it; it seems like it'd run into the same problem my suggested move had of Lip players just running off to build chains.​
I think I'll sit down later with a bit of pen and paper to start thinking of Lip move-set ideas once again. I feel my thoughts are a lot clearer with paper than trying to type them up on the laptop.
 

N. Onymous

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Yeah, that's the rub, isn't it? Obviously we'd want Lip to be good--not even out of bias, just to provide a character who's fun to watch and play as (nobody purposely sets out to make a bad character, unless it's Pichu)--but at the same time, you don't want her to be so good that she dominates the metagame to a Brawl Meta Knight extent, or encourage regressive strategies like turtling. It's a tricky issue.
 

Homelessvagrant

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Well, this got off-topic quickly.

PsychoJosh mentioned in a Discord server I'm in that he feels most of the movesets that have been posted in this thread are more focused on being cute and representative of Panel de Pon's gameplay than on being actually functional as a fighter. He says he feels things would be better served if you were playing a more improvised version of Panepon on the stage: say, she creates panels with her neutral special that can be stacked three high, which cause different effects while out, like the ones I have listed for Lip's Final Smash in my composite moveset (which is probably overdue for an update considering Final Smashes work differently this time around). It would be possible to select which panel would be created by holding down the B button like Pac-Man's neutral, but the order of colors would be random so you'd have to pay attention to get the panels you want. Hitting a panel stack of like colors with her Smash attack would destroy it, causing explosions that damage nearby fighters and creating "chains", which would power up her Garbage Block special, which would work as he described earlier in the thread.

Thoughts? Personally, I really like this idea. It gets the gist of Panepon's gameplay across while also providing a moveset that's fun to play.

I like the idea you proposed N. Onymous on a conceptual level, but I'm afraid it would result in Lip having a very toxic playstyle. Either she would have to be camp heavy with the few blocks she can stack, or she'll be abusive with her setup. Even if the opponent can destroy the blocks, it still leads to frustration for either Lip or her opponent. I will say I do like the "chain" element of empowering other attacks

personally when I think of Lip's moveset, I think of a more abstract representation of the character. Like I consider using a combination of flower magic and puzzle block mischief to work as something of a combo based character. You could for instance put a flower on the opponents head by using a special which changes the properties of other attacks like make attacks have more hitsun or cause thrown blocks to have certain elemental effects. I do like the idea of incorporating more game centric concepts into her moveset (like a cursor grab for example) but we can also pull ideas from certain story elements too (such as the fact that she has the power of flower magic that can put fighters into a peaceful state).
 

N. Onymous

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She should definitely have at least one or two attacks with the flower effect. It's only fitting.
 

Homelessvagrant

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I wouldn't even say it has to be the flower effect. It could be roots that force opponents into a grounded effect or spores that force the opponent into a peaceful daze like effect (referencing her power to end fighting). I wouldn't want the puzzle aspect of Lip to be completely left behind and I do think it should be the focus, but I also think there is a well of possibilities with her flower based magic that I wouldn't want to be forgotten.
 

Souldin

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So I've thought about the Lip idea a little more, and whilst still a rough outline, I at least now have a better idea for how the combo/chain Puzzle Mechanic mechanic for Lip could work could work in SSB.

My problem with my initial idea is that it would have involved a good deal of micromanaging and encourage camping; that being to use Up B to set up a panel stack and then keep hitting it until you get combos/chains. My new idea doesn't entirely alleviate that possibility, but doesn't encourage it.

So rough Special outline would go as follows Neutral B = Quick Swap
Side B = Line Clear
Up B = Stack Rise
Down B = Garbage Block


In this move-set idea, both Lip's Up B and Side B (as well as potentially her Neutral B) would make panels with the chance for them being combo'd. The main way to not encourage spamming and/or camping is to simplify the combo build up by making it more auto (though not completely).

Stack Rise (Up B) would create a 3x6 row from underneath Lip, pushing her up with not only the initial rise, but also giving her an increased boost if any panels match and a line clear occurs. In this case, the chance of a panels forming a line of 3 or more is very likely. This gives Lip a combo/chain and a good boost, however, with each usage of her Up B within a certain amount of time decreases the likelihood of there being an automatically matching row of panels. Lip can adjust the panels through her B moves or by whacking the stack, but this leaves her exposed to attacks if she concentrates her time on building it up there and then rather than simply waiting.

In a similar fashion, the idea for Lip's Line Clear (Side B) would also cause a row of panels to rise out the ground; hurting foes who were atop that area. This would only be a row of 1x6 though, and in front of Lip. As before, the first time it is used, the chance of the panels matching is very high. Once matched, the panels disintegrate, damaging foes if they are still atop, and adding to Lip's combo/chain. As with Stack Rise, the chance for matching panels decreases with each usage. Having two moves that can create Panels, and thus build up the strength and size of her Garbage Blocks, allows for Lip to be more creative with her move-set.

I feel Quick Swap (Neutral B) could also have a panel creating aspect, working as a cursor which reverses the position of an attack or object with a panel. This only creates an additional panel, but can in turn be thrown about, and potentially lined or placed atop the Stack Rise or Line Clear to add to the combo/chain where otherwise there is not a matching Panel.

This panel matching mechanic would be for the purpose of building up Lip's two key assets; her Garbage Block and Lip's Stick. With increased combo/chain, the size and strength of her Garbage Block increases, her primary K.O, method. In addition, it adds to her Lip's Stick wielding smash attacks the flower affect; greater in respect to Lip's current chain/combo.

I ultimately don't see Lip as the best of fighters in terms of launching opponents, but I do see her as incredibly capable of blocking and building up damage; allowing her few stronger such as Garbage Block to launch her foes. An as mentioned before, I like the idea of having a divide between her Special Moves and A moves; Puzzle representation and flower representation. With Watabou, the floating flower from the menu screen and the rainbow bridges, Lip has plenty to draw from for aerial moves, whilst the Lip's Stick allows her to have a very unique smash style... thanks to smash.

This is only one idea, and did think of a couple others, but I felt they didn't quite fit. I thought about typing her combo/chain mechanic to her fighting style itself, how she can combo the foe with varied moves to build it up, but this led to a style of character that I didn't feel fit Lip nor a puzzle representative. Another idea is to drop the combo/chain mechanic altogether and focus on the 'damage building pro but weak launcher' design; it's simpler, but feels more like Lip as if she was made in/for SSB rather than as a representative of her gaming series.

I'll give more thought to making a better flowing move-set and how to iron the kinks, but what do you think of the rough idea?
 
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N. Onymous

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Sounds clever. Probably the first time I've heard of that idea for her side B, but it works really well now that I think of it. I'm not sure how I feel about Quick Swap generating a panel, though.

On another note, I've noticed something about the flowers in SSBU:

1529962545008.png

They've been redesigned. On the left is a flower from SSB4-U for comparison. They're a lot more realistic compared to the Wii U game's flower, which looks to be the same model they used in Melee and Brawl. I wonder why that is. Again, they could easily have just ported the data over from previous games...
 

Motor Bug2005

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Sounds clever. Probably the first time I've heard of that idea for her side B, but it works really well now that I think of it. I'm not sure how I feel about Quick Swap generating a panel, though.

On another note, I've noticed something about the flowers in SSBU:

View attachment 150162
They've been redesigned. On the left is a flower from SSB4-U for comparison. They're a lot more realistic compared to the Wii U game's flower, which looks to be the same model they used in Melee and Brawl. I wonder why that is. Again, they could easily have just ported the data over from previous games...
Actually from the videos and screenshots I've seen, the Melee and Brawl models are the only ones that are the same while the SSB4 and SSBU models are both different.
 
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N. Onymous

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Actually from the videos and screenshots I've seen, the Melee and Brawl models are the only ones that are the same while the SSB4 and SSBU models are both different.
It's always possible I'm remembering wrong. Either way...why didn't they just do what they did in Brawl and port the old flower model over?
 
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PsychoJosh

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So I've thought about the Lip idea a little more, and whilst still a rough outline, I at least now have a better idea for how the combo/chain Puzzle Mechanic mechanic for Lip could work could work in SSB.

My problem with my initial idea is that it would have involved a good deal of micromanaging and encourage camping; that being to use Up B to set up a panel stack and then keep hitting it until you get combos/chains. My new idea doesn't entirely alleviate that possibility, but doesn't encourage it.

So rough Special outline would go as follows Neutral B = Quick Swap
Side B = Line Clear
Up B = Stack Rise
Down B = Garbage Block


In this move-set idea, both Lip's Up B and Side B (as well as potentially her Neutral B) would make panels with the chance for them being combo'd. The main way to not encourage spamming and/or camping is to simplify the combo build up by making it more auto (though not completely).

Stack Rise (Up B) would create a 3x6 row from underneath Lip, pushing her up with not only the initial rise, but also giving her an increased boost if any panels match and a line clear occurs. In this case, the chance of a panels forming a line of 3 or more is very likely. This gives Lip a combo/chain and a good boost, however, with each usage of her Up B within a certain amount of time decreases the likelihood of there being an automatically matching row of panels. Lip can adjust the panels through her B moves or by whacking the stack, but this leaves her exposed to attacks if she concentrates her time on building it up there and then rather than simply waiting.

In a similar fashion, the idea for Lip's Line Clear (Side B) would also cause a row of panels to rise out the ground; hurting foes who were atop that area. This would only be a row of 1x6 though, and in front of Lip. As before, the first time it is used, the chance of the panels matching is very high. Once matched, the panels disintegrate, damaging foes if they are still atop, and adding to Lip's combo/chain. As with Stack Rise, the chance for matching panels decreases with each usage. Having two moves that can create Panels, and thus build up the strength and size of her Garbage Blocks, allows for Lip to be more creative with her move-set.

I feel Quick Swap (Neutral B) could also have a panel creating aspect, working as a cursor which reverses the position of an attack or object with a panel. This only creates an additional panel, but can in turn be thrown about, and potentially lined or placed atop the Stack Rise or Line Clear to add to the combo/chain where otherwise there is not a matching Panel.

This panel matching mechanic would be for the purpose of building up Lip's two key assets; her Garbage Block and Lip's Stick. With increased combo/chain, the size and strength of her Garbage Block increases, her primary K.O, method. In addition, it adds to her Lip's Stick wielding smash attacks the flower affect; greater in respect to Lip's current chain/combo.

I ultimately don't see Lip as the best of fighters in terms of launching opponents, but I do see her as incredibly capable of blocking and building up damage; allowing her few stronger such as Garbage Block to launch her foes. An as mentioned before, I like the idea of having a divide between her Special Moves and A moves; Puzzle representation and flower representation. With Watabou, the floating flower from the menu screen and the rainbow bridges, Lip has plenty to draw from for aerial moves, whilst the Lip's Stick allows her to have a very unique smash style... thanks to smash.

This is only one idea, and did think of a couple others, but I felt they didn't quite fit. I thought about typing her combo/chain mechanic to her fighting style itself, how she can combo the foe with varied moves to build it up, but this led to a style of character that I didn't feel fit Lip nor a puzzle representative. Another idea is to drop the combo/chain mechanic altogether and focus on the 'damage building pro but weak launcher' design; it's simpler, but feels more like Lip as if she was made in/for SSB rather than as a representative of her gaming series.

I'll give more thought to making a better flowing move-set and how to iron the kinks, but what do you think of the rough idea?
Not bad. Mind if I combine it with an idea I have?

First, in my idea for Lip's moveset, her neutral B is a Panel Block, which she creates with her wand. She can throw it a short distance and stack several of them together, and even has limited control over which color they'll be. Each color panel when touching another panel distributes a variety of effects onto the opponent (Yellow panels electrocute, blue panels freeze, green panels shoot out pollen clouds that cause a flower effect, red panels cause fire damage, etc.) Rather than being her side+B, I give Line Clearing effects to each one of her Smash attacks, which act similar to Duck Hunt's forward+B in which a bunch of panel "pop" explosions happen directly in front of Lip. Whenever she hits her own stack of panels with a Smash Attack, that's how she detonates them and potentially adds to the power of her garbage block special.

So throwing panels out on the stage can have a multitude of uses, such as area denial or edgeguarding. Panel explosions are much more damaging and cause significant knockback depending on the color of the panels she bursts. I was thinking her moveset would revolve around building panel towers on stage, matching colors and then hitting it with a line clearing Smash attack.
 

MysticKnives

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Personally, I like to imagine that Sakurai internally in his mind would not want to add Arle before Lip. I think he would rather give attention to Panel de Pon first before giving Puyo Puyo recognition, just to prevent PDP from falling to further obscurity. :p
Don’t worry, Sakurai’s got it all planned out. He’ll bring in Furil, a Tetris block, and Arle
 

N. Onymous

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wait where did you get the pic on the right?
It's from Olimar's page on the website. It was posted earlier in the thread.

Looking up screenshots, it seems like the petals are the only thing fom the Melee/Brawl model that got touched up for SSB4 (since they were completely flat before), and the rest of the model is nearly to completely identical otherwise. For Ultimate they completely redid the flower, down to the color--it's a much darker shade of pink, almost purple, and it's got more bones so it can bounce and flop around. I'm not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I really hope it's a good (or sorta good) sign.
 
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Homelessvagrant

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I would say it is a good sign, even if it is only slightly. I mean given that a good portion of the assets in ultimate are just ported over (to include some characters) there had to be a reason for Sakurai's team to decide to take time to polish that particular asset. Just out of curiosity, outside of summoning items, do we know of any items that have had visual updates?
 
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N. Onymous

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As far as I know, all of the returning items use the same or very similar models as they did in SSB4-U.

The new flowers actually look a lot like those on fully-blossomed Purple and White Pikmin:

1529985258701.png


Make of that what you will.
 

N. Onymous

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After doing some research, it looks like I was right. Most, if not all, of the items to return in Ultimate use the same models, although not necessarily the same textures, as in SSB4--including effects given by the item that don't use the same model, such as the Super Leaf's tail and ears.

1530000794464.png

1530000836166.png

So...why update the flower?

(Not going to set myself for disappointment here, but it seems a little suspicious, honestly.)
 

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Well looks like we've got another suspicious change, just like Samus trading her Dark Samus skin for a generic dark black costume.
 

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It might just be the flower was updated because Olimar's Pikmin can trigger it and all fighters were revamped. The flower image is from Olimar's page, isn't it?
 

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Fighter images feature items and effects unrelated to their characters on a regular basis. One of Snake's pictures has the Ramblin' Evil Mushroom, one of Ridley's has the hammer... The flower effect is just there as a goofy reference to the Pikmin series. It most likely has no relation to Olimar's moveset.
 
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Takasmash

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As far as I know, all of the returning items use the same or very similar models as they did in SSB4-U.

The new flowers actually look a lot like those on fully-blossomed Purple and White Pikmin:

View attachment 150199

Make of that what you will.
I think Pikmins has a new side move oh you're right Lip does has a chance maybe thats. It will be so broken if Olimar attacks opponents with his side move and order you of the stage that will be so OP its not even funny Im reading into too much.
 

N. Onymous

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And Pikmin attacks don't plant flowers in the actual Pikmin series either, so changing Olimar's moveset in that way wouldn't make any sense. I agree that you're reading just a bit more into this than you should.

...of course, this is implying I'm not.
 
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Motor Bug2005

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It turns out that the Japanese Lip video posted several pages ago is the first in a series as a second video was posted a few hours ago:

I hope it isn't against the rules.
 
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