The Fact Is...

[Advent Lee]

Dedede's Infinite Chain Grab (henceforth will be called ICG) should be banned along with all other infinite's. What do you think?

First of all everyone D3 can ICG, with the exception of Luigi, can be chain grabbed normally. Brawl is bad enough as it is but to allow a character to have the ability to win an entire match with just 3 grabs is ridiculous. This makes those few characters that can be ICG a "near impossible" match up for them. Besides taking away D3 ICG doesn't really make the match ups that much harder for D3 mains. I know that even D3 mains can see this It just allows the characters that can be ICG a better chance to win. You can still chain grab them normally (except Luigi)

Secondly, whether it is done or not D3 has the potential to stall out a match with the ICG. I'm not saying anyone does it or anything but if a D3 player is on the same stock or a stock higher than their opponent then by ICG someone to 999% and continuing until the timer runs is an auto victory (Even if it was limited to say 300%, a Dedede main could willing stall out matches and run the timer simply by using this tech to the maximum allowed limit.) And this is even gayer than doing the "plank" you can at least try to get a ledge camper off the ledge, but once a ICG is started there is nothing you can do but HOPE that your opponent messes up. Just think about this, are there any other tactics that are ALLOWED in tournaments so powerful that all your opponent can do is literally put down their controller and hope their competitor messes up???

Lastly by allowing ICG to exist in tournaments destroys the morale of players. Seibrik said this himself. What this means is that Luigi, Mario, DK and the rest of characters that can be ICG feel like they are forced to pick up a secondary just for this match up. Some feel that its an impossible match up, while others believe that its just too hard to try with their main characters so they must pick up a whole new character just to stand a chance.

By banning ICG's from tournaments allows some players to gain back their morale and confidence of their character, completely takes away the option and potential of stalling out a match by ICG, and takes away the "near impossible" match up list.


NOTE: This is not a rant or anything of that sort, I don't even play a character that can be ICG. I am only mentioning this in an effort to make this game a little better. Besides ICG is gay, I just wanna know you guys thoughts on ICG, and all other infinite's.



-advent-

 

[FlatSoda]

ban D3 chaingrab past 150%


/thread

 

[Master Raven]

The ICG, and just about every ICG in this game (with the exception of the Ice Climbers' since they actually require skill) should be banned. I think characters like DK can do alright against DDD (though I still think D3 holds the advantage even without the ICG), but if the ICG is legal then there is virtually nothing a DK player can do to stop the D3 from ICGing him to death. I don't even know why it's legal in the first place. If it worked on everyone then it would be banned immediately, so I don't see some places legalize it just because it only works on a few characters.

 

[CO18]

It should be banned completely

 

[Pritch]

Ridiculous. Sheik's had the ability to chaingrab large chunks of the cast in melee literally from zero to death and no one's needed a ban in the 7 years of the game's life. IC's (completely aside from wobbling, which btw I also don't find ban-worthy) are likewise capable of killing certain characters off of 1 grab. Marth takes fastfallers out off of a grab or 2, peach the same if the spacies are over 30-45% depending on the character, etc, etc, etc. Nasty grab combos that kill people exist. Deal with them.

As an aside, the brawl community has to be the most ban-happy fighting game community I've ever seen, though it's up to the individual to decide if that's the game or the community's fault.

 

[Advent Lee]

Ridiculous. Sheik's had the ability to chaingrab large chunks of the cast in melee literally from zero to death and no one's needed a ban in the 7 years of the game's life. IC's (completely aside from wobbling, which btw I also don't find ban-worthy) are likewise capable of killing certain characters off of 1 grab. Marth takes fastfallers out off of a grab or 2, peach the same if the spacies are over 30-45% depending on the character, etc, etc, etc. Nasty grab combos that kill people exist. Deal with them.

As an aside, the brawl community has to be the most ban-happy fighting game community I've ever seen, though it's up to the individual to decide if that's the game or the community's fault.

Every single chain grab you mentioned was a CHAIN GRAB. I said that D3 chain grab is fine. Its his INFINITE CHAIN GRAB thats the problem. Not to mention that all the chain grabs that you mentioned took skill to do and were not guaranteed because to took following DI and predictions. D3 and other character infinite takes nearly no skill to do, and are GUARANTEED. Wow, and I thought that was common sense. LoLz.



-advent-

 

[Pritch]

I'd like to hear what the practical difference (stalling aside) between being able to infinitely chainthrow someone to 999% and kill them and being able to chainthrow them to 120% or so for a guaranteed edgeguard. Both have the same end result - guaranteed death off of one throw. Seriously, are there moral implications of one and not the other or somthing? I don't get it.

Also, let me tell you a little secret. Chaingrabbing with shiek is EASY. Chaingrabbing spacies with peach is probably slightly less easy, but still somthing that any good peach player can do with 99% consistency. Both of these are guaranteed kills if the person doing the grabbing is competent. Marth's chainthrows on fastfallers are pretty much a science at this point (uthrow 2-3 times, utilt to regrab, uthrow, uthrow, shorthopped uair to regrab, etc or whatever the sequence is - I'm not a marth player) and likewise kill, though I'll grant that they're a bit more complex than the above 2. I have very little experience with or against good ic's so I'll leave that one for someone else (though wobbling is about as infinite and inescapable a grab combo as you can get, and even it's not universally banned).

Basically, if you can easily follow the character's DI on reaction (which you can in the above examples) then when you say that these chaingrabs take lots of skill it just looks to me like you haven't actually played the characters enough to learn them.

And anyways, saying that it's more or less difficult should be completely irrelevant, since if the tactic is legal and powerful then people are going to learn it to get that edge in tournaments (see space animal/icy players in general, pivot grabs/smashes, wallteching, various character specific things like swd with samus, etc). The ONLY thing that should be considered when you're determining if a tactic is too broken for competitive play is the results, not the work that you have to put in to achieve those results, because people WILL put in that work if the results are worth it.

I thought THAT was common sense. LoLz.

(see kids, personal attacks really DO make your arguement better)

 

[Blatt Blvd]

This thread is ********.

Lee, you played 0 to death chain grab Shiek in Melee, thats 1000000X worse than DDD.

The community needs to look into banning MK and then this game can be subpar and maybe a good Metagame can come along.

**** it, ban Brawl and play Melee instead.

 

[Advent Lee]

I'd like to hear what the practical difference (stalling aside) between being able to infinitely chainthrow someone to 999% and kill them and being able to chainthrow them to 120% or so for a guaranteed edgeguard. Both have the same end result - guaranteed death off of one throw. Seriously, are there moral implications of one and not the other or somthing? I don't get it.

Also, let me tell you a little secret. Chaingrabbing with shiek is EASY. Chaingrabbing spacies with peach is probably slightly less easy, but still somthing that any good peach player can do with 99% consistency. Both of these are guaranteed kills if the person doing the grabbing is competent. Marth's chainthrows on fastfallers are pretty much a science at this point (uthrow 2-3 times, utilt to regrab, uthrow, uthrow, shorthopped uair to regrab, etc or whatever the sequence is - I'm not a marth player) and likewise kill, though I'll grant that they're a bit more complex than the above 2. I have very little experience with or against good ic's so I'll leave that one for someone else (though wobbling is about as infinite and inescapable a grab combo as you can get, and even it's not universally banned).

Basically, if you can easily follow the character's DI on reaction (which you can in the above examples) then when you say that these chaingrabs take lots of skill it just looks to me like you haven't actually played the characters enough to learn them.

And anyways, saying that it's more or less difficult should be completely irrelevant, since if the tactic is legal and powerful then people are going to learn it to get that edge in tournaments (see space animal/icy players in general, pivot grabs/smashes, wallteching, various character specific things like swd with samus, etc). The ONLY thing that should be considered when you're determining if a tactic is too broken for competitive play is the results, not the work that you have to put in to achieve those results, because people WILL put in that work if the results are worth it.

I thought THAT was common sense. LoLz.

(see kids, personal attacks really DO make your arguement better)

OK sorry. Maybe I came off a little too strong on you before. I am not attacking you, I am attacking your lack of knowledge for the game. There is a HUGE difference between Chain grabbing someone to kill percent and infinite to kill percent. Infinite is a one grab guaranteed kill. Where as Chain grabbing takes multiple grabs and other attacks to reach kill percents. You cannot kill from one grab while chain throwing.

And again your right about some of the concepts of melee but wrong at the same time. Chain grabbing was easy with Sheik however it was definitely not a guaranteed kill on anyone with good DI. Please show me one single vid of HIGH LEVEL play where a Sheik player such as Forward, Captain Jack, DSF, or anyone at all won an entire match from 4 grabs.... Exactly. And as far as Marth went in melee, his chain throwing the spacies were KIND of a science however it was NOT guaranteed. DI and the ability to shine out of it were there. Where as ICG there is nothing the opponent can do. Literally nothing.

Again I am not attacking you at all, just saying that infinite's were banned in melee and should be banned in brawl. It is a stalling tactic and is just gay. And again I thought THAT was common sense LoLz.



-advent-

 

[Advent Lee]

This thread is ********.

Lee, you played 0 to death chain grab Shiek in Melee, thats 1000000X worse than DDD.

The community needs to look into banning MK and then this game can be subpar and maybe a good Metagame can come along.

**** it, ban Brawl and play Melee instead.

I agree LoLz. And how do you know my name? You have a new account, who are you?

P.S. I wasn't that gay in melee lolz, i switched my main to falco and trained with Lambchops remember.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

It's simple really.

If you play DK and you have to play a DDD in tourney, just switch characters.

Plain and simple.

 

[harriettheguy]

From now on dedede players need to chaingrab without looking at the screen. its really cool and really d!ck.

 

[Advent Lee]

It's simple really.

If you play DK and you have to play a DDD in tourney, just switch characters.

Plain and simple.

True but.... Read the third paragraph of the first post



-advent-

 

[Retroend]

i agree with this 150%. ban it.

 

[Pritch]

There is a HUGE difference between Chain grabbing someone to kill percent and infinite to kill percent. Infinite is a one grab guaranteed kill. Where as Chain grabbing takes multiple grabs and other attacks to reach kill percents. You cannot kill from one grab while chain throwing.

I really don't see how relevant the number of grabs is when after the first one you can't escape till you die. Explain this HUGE difference to me.

Please show me one single vid of HIGH LEVEL play where a Sheik player such as Forward, Captain Jack, DSF, or anyone at all won an entire match from 4 grabs.... Exactly.

Please show me a character that sees serious high-level play that sheik can chaingrab to death. Oh wait. They don't. I wonder why? The only one that might be an exception to that rule is ganon, who sees hardly any play, and I'm not entirely sure if sheik can actually 0 to death him. And that match is ridiculously in sheik's favor anyways (see tipman beating darkrain's falcon but then losing to his sheik at mlg orlando for example. Did you know darkrain played shiek? I didn't know darkrain played sheik.).

Makes it kind of hard to find vids when she's already driven the characters that she can chaingrab out of competitive play. I will say that when I played pikachad at tgmtsbco last summer when I got grabs on him he died from them, and he's probably the best pika player I've seen that's not named chudat or azen.

And I suppose the marth chainthrows aren't guarunteed in the sense that you can close your eyes and input a mechanical series of button presses and the fox dies, but it is certainly the case that marth has options for any DI the space animal takes that he can execute on reaction and that will lead to either a spike or a guarunteed edgeguard. Again, I'm not seeing the difference since in both cases there is an inital grab, an intermediate stage where a bunch of damage is dealt that the grabbed person can't avoid, followed by death. The precise details of that intermediate step are frankly not a big deal if you can't get away from it.

Again I am not attacking you at all, just saying that infinite's were banned in melee and should be banned in brawl.

I searched "wobbling" in tournament listings. Here's what 7 of the first 15 hits said:

Wobbling is allowed except when used to excessively stall a match

Wobbling is allowed.

-Wobbling is allowed

* Wobbling is allowed except when used to excessively stall a match

Wobbling will be handled with the Gentlemen's Rule [player's choice, though stalling with it is still banned].

[*]Wobbling is allowed

-Wobbling is allowed

Yup. Infinites were totally banned in melee. No dissension at all.

 

[spider_sense]

Funny thing is I've been saying ban that ever since Linguini told me his DK lost to Seibrik's D3.