The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - LLOYD SURVIVES THE SLAUGHTER!

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if you're talking about zohar, Monolith always loosely references their past games. They just can't do anything with it. They don't even call it the Zohar.

Anyway we're wildly off topic, here's a song
But that thing is responsible for the events of xenoblade 1 and 2. Mythra and Milos are literal personifications of that thing.
 
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But that thing is responsible for the events of xenoblade 1 and 2.
Those two are connected, but the only connection to Xenosaga is imagery, motifs, and some loose parallels in story structure. Basically the writers have done a lot of rehashing of old ideas.

Some people theorize that they share a multiverse, but that's fan theory territory unless the developers confirm something, and to my knowledge they haven't.

Edit: I don't know if people have talked about this, but do people think Lloyd's model would be based on artwork or his in-game model? The proportions are pretty different.
 
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Clumsyzephyr

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Those two are connected, but the only connection to Xenosaga is imagery, motifs, and some loose parallels in story structure. Basically the writers have done a lot of rehashing of old ideas.

Some people theorize that they share a multiverse, but that's fan theory territory unless the developers confirm something, and to my knowledge they haven't.

Edit: I don't know if people have talked about this, but do people think Lloyd's model would be based on artwork or his in-game model? The proportions are pretty different.
I'm thinking it'll most likely be based on his artwork. The other models Lloyd has in the sequel and spinoffs seem to be based on that over the chibi-ish look of the original.
 
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I'm thinking it'll most likely be based on his artwork. The other models Lloyd has in the sequel and spinoffs seem to be based on that over the chibi-ish look of the original.
Okay, that makes sense. Kind of like Cloud. My main thought about why he would be more chibi was that old idea that Mii swordfighter was used as a base for a DLC character. Chibi Lloyd's proportions are pretty similar. I don't think that theory went anywhere, though, so It's probably nothing worth seriously considering.
 
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Maybe an in-between is possible: sorta like how Mega Man is a middle ground between his official artwork and his NES sprites (though in Lloyd's case the proportion difference isn't quite as drastic)
 

Midget Master

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Feel like overthinking some things, so here's some of my so-called Llogic for Lloyd:

I honestly agree with the sentiment Lloyd isn't a good fit for the VGAs. However, I still think he's likely - for my money, I think if he's Fighter's Pass character 5, he just gets straight up revealed in a Direct sometime between now and the VGAs. I'm certain Nintendo is bound to have one, as the holiday season is coming up soon and they're going to want to get stuff out there. This would mean that a different character, the first post-pass character, would be revealed at the VGAs. Considering Nintendo's last effort, I don't believe it is at all an impossibility that this could be kept entirely secret.

Failing that, I view one of him or Heihachi as a virtual lock for the post-pass. Additionally, I think Lloyd has a bit more fan support (not really sure on this, I'm not a pollster that's just how it feels).

The Pac-Man taunt thing is the kind of thing that seems like it should mean nothing, but I just get that feeling from it. I dunno, call me crazy, but that kind of thing so often tends to go further than you'd expect. Anyway, people speculate Geno for post pass on the grounds they believe his mii costume was pulled from returning with Hero, as there were only four costume pieces released with him. Lloyd and Heihachi's costumes haven't shown up either, but there isn't really a clear space where they both could have been "pulled".

Sure, Heihachi could have shown up with Terry, and there IS a singular missing spot there... But then where would Lloyd have been pulled from? The fifth fighter? It's a possibility. If we get someone who is not Lloyd as FP5, and it comes with five Mii costume pieces, that could well be a smoking gun. But would you pull one of their costumes just to have it return with the other? I don't really think so. We don't even know for sure that additional mii costumes would be coming with post-pass characters. We also don't know that they're not, but I'm already making a lot of assumptions in the first place so I think it's fine to make that one.

So in that case, what would make the most sense to me is that either Lloyd or Heihachi is FP5, and will come with the other one's costume returning. And I think Lloyd wins out on that one. The Heihachi in Pac-man's taunt was put there from the beginning, and the Fighter's Pass was mostly hashed out by that point. Which makes me think it could well indeed mean something for Lloyd being in the Fighter's Pass.

In the case that we get radio silence up until the VGAs, and a different character altogether is announced there, I see him as likely post-pass, but then I do also imagine he competes a bit more with Heihachi. Of course, this is also assuming his costume doesn't just pop up with FP5, which it could. However, I really do feel like the idea that the Fighter's Pass would have been over and done with without Namco getting another slice of the pie seems quite unlikely to me.

Anyway, all or most of that likely means nothing, and Sakurai is likely putting the finishing touches on Frogger as we speak. But I felt like musing on it so I mused on it.
 

NessAtc.

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Again, Tales of Arise has had radio silence since E3. We're bound to get a trailer at TGA just because Namco already does world premieres there, and Namco, much like Square Enix with Dragon Quest, has been trying to push Tales further into the west. Arise is clearly a major step in that direction.

So Lloyd absolutely does fit at TGA. I also don't think he competes with Heihachi at all, just because of how extremely easy he is to do compared to Heihachi. Tekken as a game is fundamentally incompatible with Smash on multiple levels, so to make Heihachi work they'd need to more or less butcher the entire character. And when a FG characters gets butchered like that, fans kinda hate that. That's the main reason Ryu, Ken, and Terry are all so well integrated into Smash; if it were any other way, it'd draw ire.
 
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Hello! I'm here to voice support for Lloyd.

I'm not a Tales expert by any means, but I've enjoyed the games I've played and definitely think Lloyd would be an awesome character. Heck, he'd be worth it for the music alone.
I’ll probably love him as dlc, however it’s hard to back him up when he isn’t related to the Rex costume in any way. If it was before fighter #5 or Rex was in the base game, he would have a massive chance. Even if he didn’t turn out to be fighter #5, he could at least become the third Namco rep.
 
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widu0746

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With the new Tales of Arise set to release in 2020, VGA on dec 12 , Anniversary of the Tales of Series on Dec 15 , 20+ years of history bringing unique action combat to RPGs , trademark logos that are very smash esq, lloyd costume DLC missing , and the original english voice actor hinting that he was working on something special it just seems like things are lining up for Lloyd to have a good chance at being the next fighter. With games like "Tales of VS" I can really see how Lloyd can fit in the game. I mean look at that gameplay it looks just like smash from loading screen to fight start. Smash was very influenced by the Tales Of Series combat system. Not to mention there are so many great music tracks it just makes sense!
 
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With the new Tales of Arise set to release in 2020, VGA on dec 12 , Anniversary of the Tales of Series on Dec 15 , the trademark logos that are very smash esq, lloyd costume missing , and the original english voice actor hinting that he was working on something special it just seems like things are lining up for Lloyd to have a good chance at being the next fighter. With games like "Tales of VS" I can really see how Lloyd can fit in the game.
Tales of VS gameplay
He’s most likely post fighter pass dlc. Xenosaga and Kosmos also have a lot of special timing with the possible Xenosaga hd collection ports, Monoloith Soft 20th anniversary (with Kosmos in the front page of their site), the extremely weird crap with the Rex costume, and there are tons of deleted Kosmos and Nintendo related photos (which I have witnessed before the mysterious take downs).
 
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amageish

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I’ll probably love him as dlc, however it’s hard to back him up when he isn’t related to the Rex costume in any way. If it was before fighter #5 or Rex was in the base game, he would have a massive chance. Even if he didn’t turn out to be fighter #5, he could at least become the third Namco rep.
I, uh, don't see any reason that the fifth DLC character would have to have something to do with the Rex costume? The DLC thus far hasn't operated on similar logic...

He’s most likely post fighter pass dlc. Xenosaga and Kosmos also have a lot of special timing with the possible Xenosaga hd collection ports, Monoloith Soft 20th anniversary (with Kosmos in the front page of their site), the extremely weird crap with the Rex costume, and there are tons of deleted Kosmos and Nintendo related photos (which I have witnessed before the mysterious take downs).
It's great that you're so passionate about KOS-MOS! She is a wonderful character and it would be super cool to see her in the game. I don't think you need to reply to every post in the Lloyd thread to discuss her though. You can support a character without arguring for them in unrelated support threads.
 
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I, uh, don't see any reason that the fifth DLC character would have to have something to do with the Rex costume? The DLC thus far hasn't operated on similar logic...



It's great that you're so passionate about KOS-MOS! She is a wonderful character and it would be super cool to see her in the game. I don't think you need to reply to every post in the Lloyd thread to discuss her though. You can support a character without arguring for them in unrelated support threads.
I’m not necessarily supporting Kosmos. If you look at my top five dlc list, she isn’t even in the list. The reason why I’m talking about Kosmos is because I think for certain she’s fighter five. I just don’t want Lloyd fans to get their hopes up too soon.

If you wonder why I think the Rex costume has relevance, it’s because it’s the only Mii costume with a public backstory of being scrapped. Sakurai literally said he that hopes the costume itself could please the fans of Xenoblade 2 who wanted him in the game. Kosmos was a special character that made a cameo in Xenoblade 2 as one of the most popular used rare blades.
 
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I’m not necessarily supporting Kosmos. If you look at my top five dlc list, she isn’t even in the list. The reason why I’m talking about Kosmos is because I think for certain she’s fighter five. I just don’t want Lloyd fans to get their hopes up too soon.

If you wonder why I think the Rex costume has relevance, it’s because it’s the only Mii costume with a public backstory of being scrapped. Sakurai literally said he that hopes the costume itself could please the fans of Xenoblade 2 who wanted him in the game. Kosmos was a special character that made a cameo in Xenoblade 2 as one of the most popular used rare blades.
But what if Elma is coming as the Xeno rep instead of KOS-MOS? I see Elma just as likely if not slightly more likely than KOS-MOS. Her game Xenoblade X came out in April of 2015, which means she isn't too new for Ultimate as the project plan for Ultimate was finalize in December of that same year. If Rex is really out of the picture for this game, I can't see any other Xenoblade character getting in but Elma. KOS-MOS still could happen though, especially since her Xenosaga games is kind of separate from Xenoblade being it's own series.
 
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amageish

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I’m not necessarily supporting Kosmos. If you look at my top five dlc list, she isn’t even in the list. The reason why I’m talking about Kosmos is because I think for certain she’s fighter five. I just don’t want Lloyd fans to get their hopes up too soon.

If you wonder why I think the Rex costume has relevance, it’s because it’s the only Mii costume with a public backstory of being scrapped. Sakurai literally said he that hopes the costume itself could please the fans of Xenoblade 2 who wanted him in the game. Kosmos was a special character that made a cameo in Xenoblade 2 as one of the most popular used rare blades.
Even if you don't support KOS-MOS in the traditional sense, it's still weird to come into a thread for other characters and constantly compare them to KOS-MOS? Like, you responded to my initial post that wasn't providing any commentary on Lloyd's likelihood beyond "I think Lloyd would be an awesome character" with a comment about a Rex Mii Costume. It's cool to want to temper expectations, but at some point you're just turning this thread into a perpetual Lloyd Rate Their Chances thread.
 
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Even if you don't support KOS-MOS in the traditional sense, it's still weird to come into a thread for other characters and constantly compare them to KOS-MOS? Like, you responded to my initial post that wasn't providing any commentary on Lloyd's likelihood beyond "I think Lloyd would be an awesome character" with a comment about a Rex Mii Costume. It's cool to want to temper expectations, but at some point you're just turning this thread into a perpetual Lloyd Rate Their Chances thread.
At this time, we all know Namco is getting a new rep. What is necessary to look into are the potential reps of Namco who can get in the way for other characters. I think KosMos is the big obstacle for all of the Namco reps.
 

NessAtc.

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I'm curious to know exactly why you think the Rex costume means KOS-MOS is coming. Either way, it'd be appreciated if you kept this to DMs, you've derailed the topic so much already

Anyway here's another of the legacy Tales of songs, Eternal Mind! You may recognize this song from Tales of the Abyss, as well as Tales of Xillia 2! I think this could be fitting for Smash.
 
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I'm curious to know exactly why you think the Rex costume means KOS-MOS is coming. Either way, it'd be appreciated if you kept this to DMs, you've derailed the topic so much already

Anyway here's another of the legacy Tales of songs, Eternal Mind! You may recognize this song from Tales of the Abyss, as well as Tales of Xillia 2! I think this could be fitting for Smash.
Did you even pay attention to a single word I said? Rex is connected to Kosmos because she is one of more popular used 3rd party blades in his game. Sakurai made a public sappy story for people who played Xenoblade 2 and wanted Rex in as a rep, when he revealed the Rex costume. Sakurai also decided put in said costume into the fighter’s pass.

Could you pick what he was doing? He had a narrative attached to the fighter’s pass since its announcement. It’s hilarious that no one is even paying attention to the implications of it. I thought you guys wanted to consider how Lloyd’s chances could be affected by this, but no, we’re in Lala Land.
 

Clumsyzephyr

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Did you even pay attention to a single word I said? Rex is connected to Kosmos because she is one of more popular used 3rd party blades in his game. Sakurai made a public sappy story for people who played Xenoblade 2 and wanted Rex in as a rep, when he revealed the Rex costume. Sakurai also decided put in said costume into the fighter’s pass.

Could you pick what he was doing? He had a narrative attached to the fighter’s pass since its announcement. It’s hilarious that no one is even paying attention to the implications of it. I thought you guys wanted to consider how Lloyd’s chances could be affected by this, but no, we’re in Lala Land.
He put in the Rex costume because he loved Xenoblade 2 and Rex couldn't make the cut. I highly doubt that costume was hinting at anything in the pass. Post pass? Sure, but at that point he'd put in Rex to represent Xenoblade 2, not a cameo character.
 

NessAtc.

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Did you even pay attention to a single word I said? Rex is connected to Kosmos because she is one of more popular used 3rd party blades in his game. Sakurai made a public sappy story for people who played Xenoblade 2 and wanted Rex in as a rep, when he revealed the Rex costume. Sakurai also decided put in said costume into the fighter’s pass.

Could you pick what he was doing? He had a narrative attached to the fighter’s pass since its announcement. It’s hilarious that no one is even paying attention to the implications of it. I thought you guys wanted to consider how Lloyd’s chances could be affected by this, but no, we’re in Lala Land.
She's not popularly used at all, I bet you over half the people who play Xenoblade 2 still haven't pulled her

I'd much prefer sticking with the actually concrete stuff (Scott Menville NDA, two Tales of trademarks being registered, both being black but stylized not unlike Smash icons, as well as Sabi's NoA source reporting that Tales of news is coming soon), rather than sticking by something Sakurai said to justify Rex being a mii costume, without uttering so much of a word about KOS-MOS.

Essentially, I don't consider KOS-MOS to be an "obstacle" for Lloyd's chances at *all*. If you consider her to be an obstacle, that's just fine, but I have considered literally everything you've put down, and I have no concrete reasons to believe you. Can we please move on from this now?
 

frozolloyd

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Did you even pay attention to a single word I said? Rex is connected to Kosmos because she is one of more popular used 3rd party blades in his game. Sakurai made a public sappy story for people who played Xenoblade 2 and wanted Rex in as a rep, when he revealed the Rex costume. Sakurai also decided put in said costume into the fighter’s pass.

Could you pick what he was doing? He had a narrative attached to the fighter’s pass since its announcement. It’s hilarious that no one is even paying attention to the implications of it. I thought you guys wanted to consider how Lloyd’s chances could be affected by this, but no, we’re in Lala Land.
Yikes. Only comment here occasionally, but I think you might be a little overaggressive for some reason. I personally don't think this affects his chances. Is Kos Mos a viable pick for a Bandai Namco rep? Yes, there is no denying they could theoretically pick her over any other rep. Does this quote mean anything outside "I'm sorry to the Rex fans, I couldn't put him in the game." Nope. Your reading into his statement way too much in my opinion, kinda like the people with chair theory did. When Sakurai says something or sets up a room, it doesn't have some secret meaning that he is trying to tell the fans or prepare the fans for Kos Mos. Literally there hasn't been a single tangible time he has done that (outside of coincidence), so I don't know why it would be different this time. Also I find the concept weird that Sakurai would try and please the Xenoblade 2 fans by adding a character that made a very VERY minor appearance in the game, which probably less then half the people actually got. If he wanted to please them, he would have added Rex. If he adds Kos Mos, its to please her fans. Its that simple. That's just my take though, let's agree to disagree and drop this subject.

Getting back on topic though, since we have talked to death potential stages, songs and mechanics, what type of trailer do you think Lloyd's trailer would be? Would it be a trailer like Terry and Joker where the smash invitation would be involved, a "Defense" trailer where he goes to the aid of one of the character already in the game ala simon/Hero, or would it be a unique trailer like Ken, Ridley and Banjo had trailer.
 

amageish

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At this time, we all know Namco is getting a new rep. What is necessary to look into are the potential reps of Namco who can get in the way for other characters. I think KosMos is the big obstacle for all of the Namco reps.
That is necessary if this was a thread called "The Definitive Discussion of What Namco Character is Most Likely for Smash Bros." This is a Lloyd thread and not that?

Getting back on topic though, since we have talked to death potential stages, songs and mechanics, what type of trailer do you think Lloyd's trailer would be? Would it be a trailer like Terry and Joker where the smash invitation would be involved, a "Defense" trailer where he goes to the aid of one of the character already in the game ala simon/Hero, or would it be a unique trailer like Ken, Ridley and Banjo had trailer.
Hm. Though one. My impluse is that it would be like Joker or Isabelle, with the trailer not obviously being about Smash Brothers until an invitation appears. Misdirection trailers are a lot of fun and I think it would suit Lloyd well.
 
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That is necessary if this was a thread called "The Definitive Discussion of What Namco Character is Most Likely for Smash Bros." This is a Lloyd thread and not that?
"The Definitive Discussion of What Namco Character is Most Likely for Smash Bros."
There are absolutely no threads on that subject. In order to spark some crap, there must be a definite leak of a Namco rep. So far, there are only disconfirmations and no details of fighter #5. This may be a Lloyd thread, but he and Kosmos are already the ones with the most chances as a Namco rep. The difference is that KOSMOS is a legit dark horse with a visible set up.
 

ArchRanger

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"The Definitive Discussion of What Namco Character is Most Likely for Smash Bros."
There are absolutely no threads on that subject. In order to spark some crap, there must be a definite leak of a Namco rep. So far, there are only disconfirmations and no details of fighter #5. This may be a Lloyd thread, but he and Kosmos are already the ones with the most chances as a Namco rep. The difference is that KOSMOS is a legit dark horse with a visible set up.
You’re ignoring a lot of Bandai Namco’s IPs and a big part of why the BN discussion is fun: it can be anyone’s pick. Lloyd and Tekken have the highest chances due to existing content in the Smash series but doesn’t mean they are locks. KOS-MOS has been getting a lot of attention but that is due to some 4chan leaks including her so I wouldn’t say she her chances are on the same level as Lloyd/Tekken. There’s also multiple Bandai Namco IPs that could make it in that gave equal or higher chances than KOS-MOS: Soul Caliber, Digimon, Dark Souls, Idolm@sters, etc etc. It’s anyone’s game and is part of the fun of discussing.

Trying to gatekeep other’s hype due to your personal beliefs on the matter helps no one or the discussion as we can see from other users among the various threads doing the same thing. It contributes nothing to the discussion outside of derailing it into arguing without narrative IMO.
 

amageish

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"The Definitive Discussion of What Namco Character is Most Likely for Smash Bros."
There are absolutely no threads on that subject. In order to spark some crap, there must be a definite leak of a Namco rep. So far, there are only disconfirmations and no details of fighter #5. This may be a Lloyd thread, but he and Kosmos are already the ones with the most chances as a Namco rep. The difference is that KOSMOS is a legit dark horse with a visible set up.
I mean, you could make a thread aobut Namco characters if you wanted to have a discussion weighing the pros/cons of different Namco reps. There was a general Square Enix thread that seemed to get some decent traffic pre-Hero reveal and I'm sure there are people who would be interested in having a discussion about Namco in similar ways. It could actually be pretty successful, even without leaks, as there are a lot of very popular Namco choices, even outside of Lloyd and KOS-MOS.

Either way, that isn't the point of this thread. People want to talk about Lloyd here and not debate the odds of him versus other characters. Let's let this thread exist for its purpose and you can make one for debating Namco characters if that's a conversation you want to have.

Anyway, fun topic to get people discussing Lloyd! Stage cameos are becoming a big thing in the DLC, with the Thieves in Mementos, Banjo's friends on Spiral Mountain, and the 20 KoF characters hanging out in the background of that Arena. What kind of cameos would you hope for for a Tales of stage?
 
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^I can see the ToS party members, plus protags from other Tales games. The way I envision Lloyd in Smash is "representative of the Tales franchise as a whole but focused largely on Symphonia because it's Lloyd". That's of course assuming his party members don't have a role in his moveset, but I wouldn't rule it out even then.
 
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I mean, you could make a thread aobut Namco characters if you wanted to have a discussion weighing the pros/cons of different Namco reps. There was a general Square Enix thread that seemed to get some decent traffic pre-Hero reveal and I'm sure there are people who would be interested in having a discussion about Namco in similar ways. It could actually be pretty successful, even without leaks, as there are a lot of very popular Namco choices, even outside of Lloyd and KOS-MOS.

Either way, that isn't the point of this thread. People want to talk about Lloyd here and not debate the odds of him versus other characters. Let's let this thread exist for its purpose and you can make one for debating Namco characters if that's a conversation you want to have.

Anyway, fun topic to get people discussing Lloyd! Stage cameos are becoming a big thing in the DLC, with the Thieves in Mementos, Banjo's friends on Spiral Mountain, and the 20 KoF characters hanging out in the background of that Arena. What kind of cameos would you hope for for a Tales of stage?
Talking about potential content is interesting, but the potential reality is far more important for those ideas to come to light. You can’t make a drawing without materials.
 

widu0746

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Anyway, fun topic to get people discussing Lloyd! Stage cameos are becoming a big thing in the DLC, with the Thieves in Mementos, Banjo's friends on Spiral Mountain, and the 20 KoF characters hanging out in the background of that Arena. What kind of cameos would you hope for for a Tales of stage?
I'm thinking the coliseum becoming a stage. In the Tales of Series, the coliseum was always where they would bring in characters from other tales games to make a cameo and have a cameo battle. Having that become the stage where the other smash characters are like making a "cameo" imo is very fitting of a tales stage. Something like in this! it's kinda hard to see the entire stage but you get an idea
 

amageish

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I'm thinking the coliseum becoming a stage. In the Tales of Series, the coliseum was always where they would bring in characters from other tales games to make a cameo and have a cameo battle. Having that become the stage where the other smash characters are like making a "cameo" imo is very fitting of a tales stage. Something like in this! it's kinda hard to see the entire stage but you get an idea.
The coliseum would be very appropriate for cameos for sure! I dig it as a concept. I also completely thought that Tales of VS was a thing, but if it got a reference in Smash, then I think it'd become the first Smash-inspired game to get content in Smash Brothers?

The World Tree would work well too; there's a world tree in every world as far as we can tell, so that's a lore sticking point for every game
That would be mildly entertaining with Yggdrasil being a major part of the DQ stage as well.

"Order the Fighter's Pass RIGHT NOW and we'll throw in another World's Tree for FREE!"

In all seriousness, that would be a great stage choice.
 

Gigaeel

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Getting back on topic though, since we have talked to death potential stages, songs and mechanics, what type of trailer do you think Lloyd's trailer would be? Would it be a trailer like Terry and Joker where the smash invitation would be involved, a "Defense" trailer where he goes to the aid of one of the character already in the game ala simon/Hero, or would it be a unique trailer like Ken, Ridley and Banjo had trailer.

I think his trailer is gonna have some kinda joke involving him having 2 swords. They have to. And i personally think the letter will be involved. Its an iconic part of the trailers at this point. Maybe he gets the letter as a drop from a defeated enemy?
 
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