The Definitive Lloyd Irving Thread - fall down seven times, stand up eight (Mii costume confirmed)

[frozolloyd]

Whelp, no Tales of news in the mini direct. Not going to lie, that entire mini direct was kinda underwhelming except for the ending. Any ways now we should set our sights on this.
https://www.thegamer.com/bandai-namco-stream-gundam-pac-man/
Bandai Namco is hosting a stream to show off games in 2 days at 4 pm PDT. If Tales has a remaster or port in the works for next year, I would be willing to bet they are going to show it off here. At the very least, they should show off some news for Arise, considering its been quite a while since we had any news about it (and the news was that it was delayed). If there is a new game coming, I am hoping for a Tales of the Abyss remake, with my pipe dream being a Tales of Innocence localization, though it probably is never going to happen (sobs).

Just dropping in to pledge my support. I think Geno is getting in next, and if that happens then Lloyd and Rayman will be tied for my new most wanted. Figured I'd drop in and get acquainted with ya'll.

Also welcome to the club. Its good to get more members on this thread.

 

[Nightguything]

My reaction to the direct^^
Candence of hyrule getting dlc is pretty nice and SMT was obviously the stealer of the show, but I think it’s safe to say over all it was pretty bummer.

Atleast we have the event Wednesday.

Just dropping in to pledge my support. I think Geno is getting in next, and if that happens then Lloyd and Rayman will be tied for my new most wanted. Figured I'd drop in and get acquainted with ya'll.

Welcome!

 

[Sigran101]

Thanks for the warm welcome! What exactly is this namco bandai stream? I haven't heard anything about it.

 

[IWantMyBurd]

Thanks for the warm welcome! What exactly is this namco bandai stream? I haven't heard anything about it.

All we know is that there's supposed to be some Tales Of series news sometime this month. Assuming it wasn't referring to Tales of Crestoria, that window is closing quickly

EDIT: I missed the above message from Frozo about the stream coming in two days. My bad

 

[frozolloyd]

Thanks for the warm welcome! What exactly is this namco bandai stream? I haven't heard anything about it.

Sure. I linked the article in previous post, but essentially because e3 was cancelled, a lot of companies are using alternative methods for showing off upcoming games. Bandai Namco at the beginning of this month announced they would show off new games at the Play Anime Live convention on July 22nd at 4:00 PM PDT. Being that this is specifically an event at the Play Anime Live convention, that means the new games they will be showing off are games with anime esthetics, like Digimon and Tales, as well as direct anime properties like SAO. And as you are from the Geno thread, you probably remember that back in November Sabi's really accurate source (not Sabi themself mind you) said they heard of "Tales of news" in relation to the switch, making many of us speculate that a remaster or a port might be announced eventually for the switch. Then again, there is a possibility that there is no Tales of news at all from this event, but in my opinion its a good idea to keep an eye out on this event, just in case Tales of Arise or a new port is announced.

 

[Sigran101]

Sure. I linked the article in previous post, but essentially because e3 was cancelled, a lot of companies are using alternative methods for showing off upcoming games. Bandai Namco at the beginning of this month announced they would show off new games at the Play Anime Live convention on July 22nd at 4:00 PM PDT. Being that this is specifically an event at the Play Anime Live convention, that means the new games they will be showing off are games with anime esthetics, like Digimon and Tales, as well as direct anime properties like SAO. And as you are from the Geno thread, you probably remember that back in November Sabi's really accurate source (not Sabi themself mind you) said they heard of "Tales of news" in relation to the switch, making many of us speculate that a remaster or a port might be announced eventually for the switch. Then again, there is a possibility that there is no Tales of news at all from this event, but in my opinion its a good idea to keep an eye out on this event, just in case Tales of Arise or a new port is announced.

Awesome, thank you!

 

[Deleted member]

Don't know how to say this but would they even add in Alphen from Arise?

 

[Nightguything]

I’d say it’s unlikely only for the fact that Arise isn’t coming to switch.

 

[frozolloyd]

Don't know how to say this but would they even add in Alphen from Arise?

I don't think Alphen is very likely to be honest. While I personally think its possible they could choose another Tales of protagonist in theory, unlike someone like Yuri for example, Alphen's game we know is not coming to switch. From a Nintendo point of view, why would they choose Alphen which would only promote another console when they could either choose Yuri (or a future Tales of port or remaster protagonist), who has a game on the switch, or Lloyd, who has a deep history with Nintendo, as well as being a huge Smash crowd pleaser? Also unlike Cloud and Joker who have games primarily on another console like Alphen, Alphen doesn't have a legacy at all that would draw Nintendo to choose him, as his game wasn't even out when they selected this fighter pass.

 

[Deleted member]

This might be a spoilers but I heard that Hearts and Innocence takes place in the same universe but is Hearts a prequel or vice versa?

 

[IWantMyBurd]

Bamco's Play Anime presentation was a bust in regards to both Tales news and Smash news. Maybe next time.

 

[frozolloyd]

Whelp no news from the live stream. I was hoping for at least some news on Tales of Arise, but I guess they will announce it eventually.

 

[andree123]

Well, let's wait in the last week of July or somewhere in August to see if the next Nintendo Direct Mini Partners Showcase gives us a 2nd Tales of game for the Switch.

 

[IWantMyBurd]

Well, let's wait in the last week of July or somewhere in August to see if the next Nintendo Direct Mini Partners Showcase gives us a 2nd Tales of game for the Switch.

Next? Has there been any word of another partner showcase?

 

[andree123]

Next? Has there been any word of another partner showcase?

They did stated that a another partner showcase is coming.

 

[Deleted member]

They did stated that a another partner showcase is coming.

Source please

 

[andree123]

Source please

"Details about the next Nintendo Direct Mini: Partner Showcase will be revealed in the future." pic.twitter.com/IFdcEkFYBc

— Wario64 (@Wario64) July 20, 2020

This is what I get so far.

 

[ChronoZX]

His Falcon's Crest should have a bigger Jigenzan explosion to blow opponents away.

Narikiri Dungeon 3 version

Tales of Asteria version

 

[Ypsen]

Find this video in my YT recommandations.

It's a really good sum up of Lloyd and Tales relevancy for Smash, including some infos we Lloyd's supporter were into (like Scott M. 's tweet).

Too bad it hasn't so many views...

 

[Shergiock]

I just made this mock-up about the banner of Lloyd in Smash Bros. Ultimate ^^

https://twitter.com/_Shergiock_/status/1290208011764391937

 

[Nightguything]

Its probably been asked before but, what stage do you guys think Lloyd would get if he got in? Almost every stage has some type of gimmick associated with it.

The only thing I thought of was a Tower of salvation stage where party members from Symphonia make a guest appearance with summons as stage hazards, kind of similar to the midgar stage.

 

[Cadillac]

Sorry for asking this in the Lloyd thread, but if others like Yuri or Cress gets in what unique attack types would they use that would differentiate from Lloyd?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sorry for asking this in the Lloyd thread, but if others like Yuri or Cress gets in what unique attack types would they use that would differentiate from Lloyd?

Quite a lot actually. All three do share a few techniques but all three have artes unique to them.

Even still Lloyd stands out because he wields two blades at once.

 

[a random user]

Sorry for asking this in the Lloyd thread, but if others like Yuri or Cress gets in what unique attack types would they use that would differentiate from Lloyd?

i don't know anyhing about cress, but yuri and lloyd have fairly diffrent movesets, the big diffrence being that llyod has two swords while yuri only has 1, so llyod can attack faster, and any attack that needs both swords yuri can't use, they do share a few moves like demon fang though
edit: for a full list, here are what arts each one can use
llyod https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/ToS_-_Lloyd_Irving:_Techs
yuri https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/ToV_-_Yuri_Lowell:_Artes
cress https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/ToX2_-_Cress_Albane:_Artes
note-cress is in multiple games so his moves vary by game, but should mostly stay the same, likewise llyod has a few new arts in tales of symphonia 2

 

[SharkLord]

We're rating Lloyd in RTC at the moment, so go and show your support.

 

[frozolloyd]

Its probably been asked before but, what stage do you guys think Lloyd would get if he got in? Almost every stage has some type of gimmick associated with it.

The only thing I thought of was a Tower of salvation stage where party members from Symphonia make a guest appearance with summons as stage hazards, kind of similar to the midgar stage.

I personally hope it would be something similar to Hero's stage, where the stage essentially tours the important locations of both Sylvarant and Tethe'alla. Maybe the platforms could be the Rheairds to make this happens, who knows. I imagine it would still have the Tower of salvation as the focus though, as that kinda is the most important location in the game. Obviously I would love cameos from the Tales of symphonia cast depending on where the fighting platforms are on the map. Maybe I'm the only one who wants this as well, but I would love to see Marta, Emil and Tenebrae to make a cameo as well, just for the complete experience.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So is Gotham Knight the rumored Arkham game that was speculated to be what Scott Menville's role was? Because Christopher Sean was confirmed to play Nightwing in that game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So is Gotham Knight the rumored Arkham game that was speculated to be what Scott Menville's role was? Because Christopher Sean was confirmed to play Nightwing in that game.

Is Scott in that game?

 

[Nightguything]

Is Scott in that game?

He hasn’t said anything about it so far, and after a quick google search I didn’t see his name on list of voice actors so maybe not?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Decided to stop by because, of my predictions, Lloyd not only gets the most questions but weirdly gets a ton of vitriol too. I'm not a huge fan of him but I recognize that his fanbase goes back to the Brawl Speculation days and I definitely respect that. I feel that the evidence is pretty damning that he's coming. My prediction since January is that he would likely be 9 and I kind of wanted to explain myself in the appropriate thread. Yes, I promise I will leave when I'm done and for the sake of everyone's mental health, I won't bring up insider stuff. So, here's why I think Lloyd is practically a lock and have for a long time:

The Surface Level Stuff:

-One of the few characters that Sakurai has specifically mentioned by name in a positive light that still isn't playable.

Discussion on Sakurai’s Post DLC Interview LOTS OF NEW INFO!

Here is our full discussion on the brand-new Sakurai Nintendo Dream interview. He goes over making the DLC and highlights all of the DLC in Smash. We translated the interview and picked out the par…

sourcegaming.info

-He also basically said that Lloyd was the "obvious" Tales rep too.

-Lloyd Mii costume is still missing. Pretty case in point too that he's the only Tales character to even appear in Smash at this point.

-Heihachi is costumed again, arguably taking Tekken out of the running for Namco reps.

-Tales 25th anniversary is this year and Namco reinterated in July that major announcements would be coming this year.

-Tales is the only major Namco series that debuted on a Nintendo console.

-Basically Namco's third best selling original series after Tekken and Pac-Man.

Stuff a Lot of People aren't Aware of:

-The Tales team has technically been involved in Smash in some capacity since 2011:

Tales Characters Could Appear in Super Smash Bros. - News

www.nintendoworldreport.com

-Tales of Symphonia was the first Tales series to receive an OVA.

-Tales of Symphonia is only one of three Tales games to receive a Direct sequel.

-Tales of Symphonia spawned 7 manga adaptations including 6 anthologies.

-Tales of Symphonia has two novel adaptations.

-Tales of Symphonia has 7 audio drama CDs.

Tales of Symphonia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

-Tales of Symphonia was the first Tales game to be released in Europe, also making it the first game in the series to be released worldwide.

-Tales of Symphonia was the first Tales game with 3D graphics.

-Lloyd appears in 9 Tales games total (yes, this is including mobile games), giving him one of the most if not the most cameos of any Tales character. Pretty sure he's in the top 10 of original Namco characters with cameos outside their respective games period but I have no way to quantify that.

All of this said, I think your boy is hard slept on and I think people dismiss him at their own peril because of the whole "HURR DURR ANIME SWORDSMAN BAD" bent despite, at least in my own opinion, a two sword style berserker would be pretty kick-ass in Smash. Keep on keepin' on, Lloyd comrades.

Add in: Okay, I lied, I have more to say...

Lloyd and Cloud have a lot in common and I think this is readily dismissed too:

-Much like FF VII did for Final Fantasy, Symphonia kind of cemented Tales as s global series of interest if only to a smaller degree. Basically Symphonia was the one that put Tales on the map, so to speak.

-Lloyd isn't the most popular character in the series but, like Cloud, there's no denying he's the most recognizable. He may not stomp Tales' fans popularity polls but there's no denying that he's easily the character that non-Tales fans recognize the most.

-Like I showed above, Lloyd has a presence in a ridiculous amount of media, just like Cloud. Manga, anime, audio dramas, and god knows how much merch. I don't think anyone else in the series compares, especially when you throw in cameos in other games.

This is why I don't think Yuri will snub Lloyd because, while Yuri may be more popular, Lloyd is more iconic especially outside of the Tales fandom. Yuri would probably get a better reception from Tales fans but, based on everything, Lloyd would much more likely get the better reception overall, especially paired with the fact that Lloyd has been an evergreen Smash pick since arguably 2005, a whopping 15 years! Okay, now I'm done... Probably.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Sakurai went with Simon for the Castlevania rep despite admitting that Alucard is more popular among CV fans. I see no reason why Yuri would get over Lloyd based on that alone. People should remember that despite Alucard's popularity, Simon is far more prominent among Castlevania games, appearing in 6 games total as the main hero (even if 5 of them have the same plot) having a multitude of cameos in other games both in CV and outside of it, where he is the main representative of Castlevania (he fought Optimus Prime, he went Skateboarding with Snake and Frogger, etc) Im not sure if Lloyd is in a similar position (Yuri was the main Tales representative in Project X Zone 1 and 2) but he is notable enough to make it, despite not topping popularity polls on a daily basis.

Also, something i want to add on what Fatmanonice said, one thing people forget is that, compared to Heihachi (who Sakurai admitted having a hard time making a moveset out of) Lloyd's gameplay translates EXTREMELY well to Smash's formula, as much as Mega Man and Simon.

If we analyize it from a gameplay standpoint, it's something Lloyd always had over Heihachi (and many other third party characters), not because he's more unique, but because Sakurai loves having their guests feel as close-to-home as possible, and Lloyd is among the easiest characters to do this with.

I can't think of any other character that would be easy to make a moveset than Lloyd, outside of maybe Rayman.

 

[SharkLord]

Sakurai went with Simon for the Castlevania rep despite admitting that Alucard is more popular among CV fans. I see no reason why Yuri would get over Lloyd based on that alone. People should remember that despite Alucard's popularity, Simon is far more prominent among Castlevania games, appearing in 6 games total as the main hero (even if 5 of them have the same plot) having a multitude of cameos in other games both in CV and outside of it, where he is the main representative of Castlevania (he fought Optimus Prime, he went Skateboarding with Snake and Frogger, etc) Im not sure if Lloyd is in a similar position (Yuri was the main Tales representative in Project X Zone 1 and 2) but he is notable enough to make it, despite not topping popularity polls on a daily basis.

Also, something i want to add on what Fatmanonice said, one thing people forget is that, compared to Heihachi (who Sakurai admitted having a hard time making a moveset out of) Lloyd's gameplay translates EXTREMELY well to Smash's formula, as much as Mega Man and Simon.

If we analyize it from a gameplay standpoint, it's something Lloyd always had over Heihachi (and many other third party characters), not because he's more unique, but because Sakurai loves having their guests feel as close-to-home as possible, and Lloyd is among the easiest characters to do this with.

I can't think of any other character that would be easy to make a moveset than Lloyd, outside of maybe Rayman.

As an outsider, I feel like Lloyd is the face based on the fact that he's the guy everyone talks about. Every time you hear someone bring up Tales for Smash, 80% of the time it's Lloyd. Sure, Yuri tops the Tales of charts, but if we were functioning by popularity in their home series, we'd have gotten Lyn over Chrom. Lloyd is more popular in both the Smash fanbase and the general audience, so it seems to me that he's the face of the series, especially if he's the one with the most appearances.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

As an outsider, I feel like Lloyd is the face based on the fact that he's the guy everyone talks about. Every time you hear someone bring up Tales for Smash, 80% of the time it's Lloyd. Sure, Yuri tops the Tales of charts, but if we were functioning by popularity in their home series, we'd have gotten Lyn over Chrom. Lloyd is more popular in both the Smash fanbase and the general audience, so it seems to me that he's the face of the series, especially if he's the one with the most appearances.

I mean, i have to agree on that.

Just look at Smash disscussion in general. Almost everyone says "Lloyd For Smash!", not "Tales rep for Smash!" Compared to Lloyd talk, conversation about any other Tales protagonist is borderline non existent. Yuri got some talk here due to the "Brave" condename leak (which ended up beign Hero) but after that it just dissapeared without a trace. I guess there's that one user who really liked Velvet for some reason, but outside of these 2 outliars, it's always been Lloyd, Lloyd, and just more Lloyd.

The same happened with Simon. It was always Simon, not Alucard, or Trevor, just Simon (and if Echo Fighters were not a thing, im pretty sure it would have been Simon alone, not Richter)

Cloud was different though. In the pre-Smash 4 days, whenever there was talk about a FF rep (which was rare) it usually the Black Mage. Why?, because people though that the character needed to be strongly associated with Nintendo and FF1 on the NES featured a Black Mage (which is iconic to the FF series and appears even in Mario Sport Spin Offs) and because of Smash Flash 2 (ironically, Smash Flash 1 had Cloud Strife) and since Cloud's game was not a Nintendo System at the time, they saw him as unlikely. If FF7 had been released on a Nintendo system earlier (it only came on Switch like in 2018) Cloud would probably have been seen as the de-facto choice though since nobody deined how recognizable he was. Though "history with Nintendo" has never been an issue with Lloyd (in fact, it's one of the Tales characters that is more associated with Nintendo platforms)

Lloyd is a character who i CANNOT think of any reason to exclude him if im honest. The closest thing i have is "if he was so likely he should have been in Smash by now"

 

[Nazyrus]

Lloyd is a character who i CANNOT think of any reason to exclude him if im honest. The closest thing i have is "if he was so likely he should have been in Smash by now"

I mean look how late we are getting stuff like Dragon Quest. Even the "should have been in smash by now" doesn't work as an argument, Nintendo/Sakurai clearly have a different order of priorities than fans have.

 

[Droodle]

For me (as someone who wants both characters/or a Tales character in general) I'd say it's honestly a 50/50 shot between Lloyd and Yuri (though I would lean slightly towards Lloyd making it more so than Yuri).

I think the advantages for Lloyd are pretty clear, and people already discussed his points rather well on this page. He is seen at the forefront of Tales requests, and even Sakurai said that he would want Lloyd as a Tales rep, and on top of that Symphonia is the best selling Tales game (but iirc Vesperia isn't too far behind now). And I think Lloyd is definitely the most well known Tales protagonist in the West.

But I do think that you can't completely dismiss Yuri's chances either. He also has a good amount of things pointing his way, he is by far the most popular Tales protagonist in Japan, he's sort of the official "crossover boy" for the series now with him appearing in both of the Project X Zone games and Granblue Fantasy (although he wasn't the only Tales character in that), and his game is the only Tales game on the Switch currently (which opens up more appeal for Nintendo/Bamco in terms of profits).

So yeah, personally I lean more towards Lloyd due to having a history of demand; but I feel like you can't just completely dismiss Yuri. They're both frontrunners for a Tales rep, and I can't see anyone else really getting in before them though.

As an outsider, I feel like Lloyd is the face based on the fact that he's the guy everyone talks about. Every time you hear someone bring up Tales for Smash, 80% of the time it's Lloyd. Sure, Yuri tops the Tales of charts, but if we were functioning by popularity in their home series, we'd have gotten Lyn over Chrom. Lloyd is more popular in both the Smash fanbase and the general audience, so it seems to me that he's the face of the series, especially if he's the one with the most appearances.

I feel like this is disingenuous in a small way though, I agree that Lloyd is by far the character you hear about the most when you discuss Smash. But outside of Smash I don't really consider Lloyd to be the singular face of Tales (among them for sure, but I think he shares that spot with Cless, Luke, Yuri, and Velvet, at this point).

But my main complaint with this is that Chrom is a pretty easy semiclone to make (he wields the falchion, just like Marth and Lucina). While Lyn is typically seen with a katana. I feel like you can't properly translate Lyn's moveset as a semiclone of other FE characters in Smash, but Chrom feels far more natural being a mix of Roy/Ike due to him wielding a sword.

I feel like this situation is more similar to Spring Man VS. Min Min, where Lloyd (Spring Man) is more recognizable to a lot more people while Yuri (Min Min) is more of the fan favorite within ARMS. I was on the "Spring Man will get into Smash" group, just because he's still the most recognizable character from there, and in terms of an "ARMS" character, he did the best on polls (before the Spring direct, where ARMS was revealed). That's not to say I think Yuri will get chosen over Lloyd, but I feel like you can't really just completely dismiss him either.

I mean, i have to agree on that.

Just look at Smash disscussion in general. Almost everyone says "Lloyd For Smash!", not "Tales rep for Smash!" Compared to Lloyd talk, conversation about any other Tales protagonist is borderline non existent. Yuri got some talk here due to the "Brave" condename leak (which ended up beign Hero) but after that it just dissapeared without a trace. I guess there's that one user who really liked Velvet for some reason, but outside of these 2 outliars, it's always been Lloyd, Lloyd, and just more Lloyd.

The same happened with Simon. It was always Simon, not Alucard, or Trevor, just Simon (and if Echo Fighters were not a thing, im pretty sure it would have been Simon alone, not Richter)

Cloud was different though. In the pre-Smash 4 days, whenever there was talk about a FF rep (which was rare) it usually the Black Mage. Why?, because people though that the character needed to be strongly associated with Nintendo and FF1 on the NES featured a Black Mage (which is iconic to the FF series and appears even in Mario Sport Spin Offs) and because of Smash Flash 2 (ironically, Smash Flash 1 had Cloud Strife) and since Cloud's game was not a Nintendo System at the time, they saw him as unlikely. If FF7 had been released on a Nintendo system earlier (it only came on Switch like in 2018) Cloud would probably have been seen as the de-facto choice though since nobody deined how recognizable he was. Though "history with Nintendo" has never been an issue with Lloyd (in fact, it's one of the Tales characters that is more associated with Nintendo platforms)

Lloyd is a character who i CANNOT think of any reason to exclude him if im honest. The closest thing i have is "if he was so likely he should have been in Smash by now"

I don't really think the Yuri talk ever disappeared though, it's just that the Lloyd fanbase is a lot more developed within the Smash sphere; so it's much easier to discuss him (Likewise, ARMS and especially Min Min talk was super slow until it got confirmed, everytime ARMS got brought up in base it was always Spring Man). I know for a fact that most of the time Lloyd is brought up in the newcomer thread, someone always brings up Yuri. Likewise, same thing occurs in GameFAQS/4Chan/ResetERA, even a Smash discord server I'm a part of. Most of the time the "general" conclusion ends up being, "Lloyd is the frontrunner, but Yuri also has a good shot as a potential Tales rep".



Again, to me it's more of a wait and see sort of situation where I can't dismiss either of them (because they both have some good points in their favor). I think in general, a Tales character is super likely and Lloyd is the front runner followed closely behind by Yuri (I can't see Luke/Cless/Velvet getting in first).

 

[IWantMyBurd]

For me (as someone who wants both characters/or a Tales character in general) I'd say it's honestly a 50/50 shot between Lloyd and Yuri (though I would lean slightly towards Lloyd making it more so than Yuri).

I think the advantages for Lloyd are pretty clear, and people already discussed his points rather well on this page. He is seen at the forefront of Tales requests, and even Sakurai said that he would want Lloyd as a Tales rep, and on top of that Symphonia is the best selling Tales game (but iirc Vesperia isn't too far behind now). And I think Lloyd is definitely the most well known Tales protagonist in the West.

But I do think that you can't completely dismiss Yuri's chances either. He also has a good amount of things pointing his way, he is by far the most popular Tales protagonist in Japan, he's sort of the official "crossover boy" for the series now with him appearing in both of the Project X Zone games and Granblue Fantasy (although he wasn't the only Tales character in that), and his game is the only Tales game on the Switch currently (which opens up more appeal for Nintendo/Bamco in terms of profits).

So yeah, personally I lean more towards Lloyd due to having a history of demand; but I feel like you can't just completely dismiss Yuri. They're both frontrunners for a Tales rep, and I can't see anyone else really getting in before them though.


I feel like this is disingenuous in a small way though, I agree that Lloyd is by far the character you hear about the most when you discuss Smash. But outside of Smash I don't really consider Lloyd to be the singular face of Tales (among them for sure, but I think he shares that spot with Cless, Luke, Yuri, and Velvet, at this point).

But my main complaint with this is that Chrom is a pretty easy semiclone to make (he wields the falchion, just like Marth and Lucina). While Lyn is typically seen with a katana. I feel like you can't properly translate Lyn's moveset as a semiclone of other FE characters in Smash, but Chrom feels far more natural being a mix of Roy/Ike due to him wielding a sword.

I feel like this situation is more similar to Spring Man VS. Min Min, where Lloyd (Spring Man) is more recognizable to a lot more people while Yuri (Min Min) is more of the fan favorite within ARMS. I was on the "Spring Man will get into Smash" group, just because he's still the most recognizable character from there, and in terms of an "ARMS" character, he did the best on polls (before the Spring direct, where ARMS was revealed). That's not to say I think Yuri will get chosen over Lloyd, but I feel like you can't really just completely dismiss him either.


I don't really think the Yuri talk ever disappeared though, it's just that the Lloyd fanbase is a lot more developed within the Smash sphere; so it's much easier to discuss him (Likewise, ARMS and especially Min Min talk was super slow until it got confirmed, everytime ARMS got brought up in base it was always Spring Man). I know for a fact that most of the time Lloyd is brought up in the newcomer thread, someone always brings up Yuri. Likewise, same thing occurs in GameFAQS/4Chan/ResetERA, even a Smash discord server I'm a part of. Most of the time the "general" conclusion ends up being, "Lloyd is the frontrunner, but Yuri also has a good shot as a potential Tales rep".



Again, to me it's more of a wait and see sort of situation where I can't dismiss either of them (because they both have some good points in their favor). I think in general, a Tales character is super likely and Lloyd is the front runner followed closely behind by Yuri (I can't see Luke/Cless/Velvet getting in first).

You make a good case for Yuri becoming a Mii costume, IMO. You're right that Yuri isn't impossible, but I think you're either upselling his chances or underselling Lloyd's at least a bit. To address a few of your points:

Lyn's curved sword in no way makes her ineligible to be an echo of the other FE swordies. The Mii swordfighter outfits and the Hero's palette swaps both treat straight and curved swords interchangeably.

The comparison to Spring Man and Min Min works on the surface, but there's a lot more going on there that doesn't translate to Lloyd vs Yuri. One is that since Spring Man already had a costume and assist trophy in the game going into the DLC, and we really don't know if he was ever in the running at that point. Sakurai mentioned that Spring was more recognizable, so people might have expected him. Other than that, Sakurai stated that he had considered Ninjara for the slot, but went with Min Min at Yabuki's request.

Contrast this with Lloyd's situation: as of now, he's not represented in Ultimate in any way, Sakurai has already named him as the top Tales of pick for Smash representation, and Bamco doesn't even seem to care if any of their characters get added as fighters. A lot of figurative stars would have to align for any of this to shift in Yuri's favor. More wild and out-there things have happened in Smash history, and I could very well be eating my words next month or next year, but for speculation purposes, I don't see it happening.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Contrast this with Lloyd's situation: as of now, he's not represented in Ultimate in any way, Sakurai has already named him as the top Tales of pick for Smash representation, and Bamco doesn't even seem to care if any of their characters get added as fighters. A lot of figurative stars would have to align for any of this to shift in Yuri's favor. More wild and out-there things have happened in Smash history, and I could very well be eating my words next month or next year, but for speculation purposes, I don't see it happening.

To be fair, the only thing here that specifically favors Lloyd over Yuri is that Sakurai mentioned Lloyd (a long time ago). The mii costume thing could be good for Lloyd or bad, we don't know. Heihachi was in a similar boat, and then Min Min was released with his mii in tow. The Bamco thing would affect both characters equally.

Now I think there are other reasons why Lloyd has a better shot than Yuri. One is that Yuri had a perfect opportunity for cross-promotion that has mostly passed. Tales of Vesperia was ported early last year (something Tales of Symphonia still hasn't gotten). If a Tales character was in discussion for the first fighter pass, I would have bet Yuri would have been the character to promote with his game. That didn't happen, so talks to get a Tales character would go differently. Familiarity would likely play a larger role if there isn't a new product to sell. Lloyd is the more familiar face worldwide, so he could edge Yuri out for that reason alone. That is, assuming pass 2 isn't made of characters that were shelved from pass 1.

There's more to the familiarity argument, too. When Sakurai was talking about Spring Man, he mentioned that ARMS' Spring Man wasn't the face people thought of when they heard the name Spring Man. If I Google Yuri, I get the girl from Doki Doki Literature Club. Granted, if I Google Lloyd I also don't get the Tales character, but I didn't get another piece of Japanese media. I got a real person. There are far more Yuris in Japanese art than Lloyds. So if you're thinking about a Lloyd that came out of Japanese media, Lloyd Irving is more than likely who people would picture, while Yuri Lowell has dozens of other characters to compete with. I just think that Yuri really needs a product for his inclusion more than Lloyd does. There technically is one, but it isn't fresh and the opportunity wasn't taken when it was fresh, so I feel that Yuri's time has likely passed. There could be reasons for Yuri to happen (like pass 2 being made of shelved leftovers of pass 1), but Lloyd is more timeless within the Smash fandom.

Not directed at you specifically, but I don't personally think moveset is an argument here. Both characters have a lot to bring to the table. Yuri would be no closer to FE rep #9 than Lloyd. Even though he only uses one sword, I can legitimately say I've never seen another character wield a sword like Yuri. Ever. Lloyd, meanwhile, has two swords but isn't super fancy about how he uses them. Personally, I think they would have very similar playstyles but very different animations. You just have to hope the Smash team will do each character justice, and so far they have for the DLC, so there isn't a lot to worry about in that regard.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

If I Google Yuri, I get the girl from Doki Doki Literature Club. Granted, if I Google Lloyd I also don't get the Tales character, but I didn't get another piece of Japanese media. I got a real person.

All i get when i google Yuri is:

(sorry if it's too off-topic i just wanted to make this joke)

 

[SharkLord]

To be fair, the only thing here that specifically favors Lloyd over Yuri is that Sakurai mentioned Lloyd (a long time ago). The mii costume thing could be good for Lloyd or bad, we don't know. Heihachi was in a similar boat, and then Min Min was released with his mii in tow. The Bamco thing would affect both characters equally.

Now I think there are other reasons why Lloyd has a better shot than Yuri. One is that Yuri had a perfect opportunity for cross-promotion that has mostly passed. Tales of Vesperia was ported early last year (something Tales of Symphonia still hasn't gotten). If a Tales character was in discussion for the first fighter pass, I would have bet Yuri would have been the character to promote with his game. That didn't happen, so talks to get a Tales character would go differently. Familiarity would likely play a larger role if there isn't a new product to sell. Lloyd is the more familiar face worldwide, so he could edge Yuri out for that reason alone. That is, assuming pass 2 isn't made of characters that were shelved from pass 1.

There's more to the familiarity argument, too. When Sakurai was talking about Spring Man, he mentioned that ARMS' Spring Man wasn't the face people thought of when they heard the name Spring Man. If I Google Yuri, I get the girl from Doki Doki Literature Club. Granted, if I Google Lloyd I also don't get the Tales character, but I didn't get another piece of Japanese media. I got a real person. There are far more Yuris in Japanese art than Lloyds. So if you're thinking about a Lloyd that came out of Japanese media, Lloyd Irving is more than likely who people would picture, while Yuri Lowell has dozens of other characters to compete with. I just think that Yuri really needs a product for his inclusion more than Lloyd does. There technically is one, but it isn't fresh and the opportunity wasn't taken when it was fresh, so I feel that Yuri's time has likely passed. There could be reasons for Yuri to happen (like pass 2 being made of shelved leftovers of pass 1), but Lloyd is more timeless within the Smash fandom.

Not directed at you specifically, but I don't personally think moveset is an argument here. Both characters have a lot to bring to the table. Yuri would be no closer to FE rep #9 than Lloyd. Even though he only uses one sword, I can legitimately say I've never seen another character wield a sword like Yuri. Ever. Lloyd, meanwhile, has two swords but isn't super fancy about how he uses them. Personally, I think they would have very similar playstyles but very different animations. You just have to hope the Smash team will do each character justice, and so far they have for the DLC, so there isn't a lot to worry about in that regard.

So you're saying I won't get the Ninjago guy first when I type Lloyd's name into the searchbar?

But in all seriousness, I think the Spring Man quip was just a silly little joke, because that Springman was defeated by Ramenman. It was most likely just Sakurai going down to make a quick reference, just because.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

So you're saying I won't get the Ninjago guy first when I type Lloyd's name into the searchbar?

But in all seriousness, I think the Spring Man quip was just a silly little joke, because that Springman was defeated by Ramenman. It was most likely just Sakurai going down to make a quick reference, just because.

The Ninjago guy actually was on the front page, just not the first result.

But yeah, the quip probably was a joke, but Sakurai spent quite a bit of time on it so I'm not entirely convinced it meant nothing. I don't think they canned Spring Man because of the anime character or anything, but the joke does show us that the idea of recognizability is at least on the developers' minds. If Nintendo of Japan thinks that Yuri would be more of an unknown than Lloyd across the world (and that would be a fair assessment) it could color their choice of a potential Tales rep. That's all I was really getting at. Names are just one way of illustrating the idea.