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The Debate Hall Social Thread

Sehnsucht

The Marquis of Sass
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I'd say life does go somewhere, but that topic would be enough to fill a topic on its own (and that topic already exists in some ways in other threads), but as the DH is not a replica of full life, but just a small aspect of it, it might behave differently.
Also, I have heard of certain occasions where discussions actually lead to something. Sometimes they grow understanding, spark new interest and expand knowledge.
My humour tends to the facetious and absurd. Though while that was just a quip, I do agree that debate can be fruitful, if all parties work toward it.

As for life going somewhere, I suppose it goes wherever you direct it. You can't always decide which river you end up in, or the strength of the current. But you can certainly paddle your damnedest to avoid flotsam and keep your eyes out for forks to venture into.

To give you some credit, you are one of if not the main force in the DH to make it move in that direction. ;)
Now that seems a worthy debate topic. >8)
 
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Braydon

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My response wasn't directed at you, nor anyone particularly. Might I ask how you thought it was?

... I'm just wondering how you interpreted my post to Claire as a condemnation of the way you approach debate.
While it might not be directed at me your, hypothesis would apply to me since I was having an argument over the internet wouldn't it?
It is my working hypothesis that the key to resolving any conflict (or most, anyway, certainly online ones) is with understanding. Hence why I always seek to understand first before I dissect and refute and whatnot.
Now if the key to resolving any online argument is understanding, then the reason for the argument must be at least in part because of a lack of understanding, as there would be no argument with more understanding.

Now if this were true and I was arguing over the internet, this would have to mean that after this time, I'm still lacking in understanding of what's going on, that I am either incapable, or unwilling to understand.
 

Sehnsucht

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While it might not be directed at me your, hypothesis would apply to me since I was having an argument over the internet wouldn't it?

Now if the key to resolving any online argument is understanding, then the reason for the argument must be at least in part because of a lack of understanding, as there would be no argument with more understanding.

Now if this were true and I was arguing over the internet, this would have to mean that after this time, I'm still lacking in understanding of what's going on, that I am either incapable, or unwilling to understand.
If you are willing to understand (that is, you put effort into understanding), and if you are capable of understanding (which you surely are, because I don't presently have grounds to doubt your intelligence), then if you still don't understand another's point or message -- even after requests for clarification, troubleshooting miscommunications, etc. -- then you'd have grounds to suspect that the opposing party is at fault. Perhaps they lack the ability to clearly communicate their points. Perhaps they are being dishonest. And so on.

Myself, I seek to give the benefit of the doubt in my approach. Asking questions and prompting elaboration, asking the other party whether I understand the idea on their terms, etc. Unless the party is being blatantly uncharitable/dishonest/etc., then suspecting they're the problem is the last step I would come to. I would suspect my own faculties are at fault before suspecting the other's.

I suppose, then, that it's a question of how much effort one is willing to put in. Since textual communication can easily be prey to miscommunication and misinterpretation (due to lack of non-verbal and voice cues), I seek to do the extra work to minimize the risk of these things, since I value their prevention. It serves no one if people talk past each other, engage in inadvertent straw-manning, etc. If you were to state that you were having trouble understanding my points, then I would work with you until an understanding is achieved.

That's what I'm about, I suppose you could say. One can post how they choose, naturally, though it is my view that this approach I propose has better chances of yielding fruitful results, at least to the extent that it can help reduce things that can cloud debate (since playing nice with others doesn't guarantee that you're going to be an effective debater). It works for me, anyway. Maybe it might work for others. It's a suggestion for those who care to take it up, and nothing more.

If you, Braydon, say you don't understand something, I won't declare that you're dumb or being obtuse or whatever. I'll just take your word that you don't (yet) understand. There are no negative connotations to not being able to grasp something, especially if you've at least put effort into trying. Perhaps I go about this the wrong way, but I think debate should have a cooperative spirit, rather than an adversarial one. We're all trying to help each other out, in the end (or so it goes in my daydreams).

I'm rambling, now. In any case, hopefully the above covers your concerns (and if not, by all means ask for clarification).
 

Sucumbio

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I'm not a fan of this. Still, if it's something you're adamant in doing, I'll grit my teeth and bear it. I'll keep a cool head, but I don't want anyone throwing insults my way, like directly calling me stupid (people can call my arguments stupid all they want). It's akin to a tinderbox in a small room with 1000 lit candles, if you ask me.
I'm adamant about something? haha I guess... I dunno. My hands are tied in terms of our user base. I think good discussion requires a variety of perspectives, so the Braydons and Lars and Acrostics and Funguses and Sen-shutes (get @ me) and claire diviners and sucumbios are all just more ways to dissect and intellectualize a topic. Some of our users are less verbose, some tend to cut to the chase, as it were, and some are so sure of themselves they feel as if finding someone else who already said what they're saying is a wasted step; indeed they feel as if validation comes from others agreeing with their notions, not in that a like minded person exists somewhere else. And maybe handling EVERY topic the same way is boring. Maybe ... but it's always suited me. If I make a statement that seems as if I'm pulling it straight out of my ass, well then I'd better find at least one link to someone else's ass that happens to be the same statement, or no one will believe me. Internet message board argumentation is unique, also, in its flip-board styled paced response.

nyway I didn't know quite what you meant, or rather what it is you're not a fan of, or what it is you think I'm adamant about doing, but maybe I'm just stupid :p
 

Claire Diviner

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I'm adamant about something? haha I guess... I dunno. My hands are tied in terms of our user base. I think good discussion requires a variety of perspectives, so the Braydons and Lars and Acrostics and Funguses and Sen-shutes (get @ me) and claire diviners and sucumbios are all just more ways to dissect and intellectualize a topic. Some of our users are less verbose, some tend to cut to the chase, as it were, and some are so sure of themselves they feel as if finding someone else who already said what they're saying is a wasted step; indeed they feel as if validation comes from others agreeing with their notions, not in that a like minded person exists somewhere else. And maybe handling EVERY topic the same way is boring. Maybe ... but it's always suited me. If I make a statement that seems as if I'm pulling it straight out of my ***, well then I'd better find at least one link to someone else's *** that happens to be the same statement, or no one will believe me. Internet message board argumentation is unique, also, in its flip-board styled paced response.
Sooooo, throw a variety of things into the primordial ooze and see what happens? I can dig.
nyway I didn't know quite what you meant, or rather what it is you're not a fan of, or what it is you think I'm adamant about doing, but maybe I'm just stupid :p
You're not stupid. Chickens who don't look both ways are stupid. I don't know how they can't, since their eyes are literally on the sides of their heads, but what do I know of a chicken's perspective? I'm no chicken.
 

JayTheUnseen

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I feel like a debate encompassing why people are so infuriated by the existence of so-called "bronies" would be intriguing.
Yet at the same time, I can't see it ever maintaining a civil atmosphere.
 

Sehnsucht

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I feel like a debate encompassing why people are so infuriated by the existence of so-called "bronies" would be intriguing.
Yet at the same time, I can't see it ever maintaining a civil atmosphere.
The only obstacle to a civil atmosphere in any debate is the people who choose to drag it down with uncivil decorum.

I have zero issues with bronydom. I'm not one myself, and I sampled the first episode on Netflix once, but wasn't all too enticed (though I did enjoy the Pony.MOV series). Even so, what issue could a person have with the existence of a fandom, and that there are many passionate fans for some form of entertainment or other? Why are bronies any worse than Trekkies or Survivor geeks? It's all fans passionate about their shizzle, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

A thread discussing bronies, and fandom perception in general culture, could be cool. And if ever people come in and start wracking up a ruckus, they'll have to deal with me -- because while you'd think it's for Sucumbased to deal with whippersnappers, he's a moderator and so is bound by rules, while I most certainly am not.
 
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I feel like a debate encompassing why people are so infuriated by the existence of so-called "bronies" would be intriguing.
Yet at the same time, I can't see it ever maintaining a civil atmosphere.
Personally I don't see what would be so uncivil about it. I also don't see it as particularly confusing; bronies are weird. No, seriously, we're weird. Think about it. We're adult men watching a show ostensibly aimed at and marketed towards little girls. That's weird on its own; especially when you consider that previous iterations of the show (which many will have in the back of their heads) were shameless marketing gimmicks and not very good. To those not in the know, it's like a grown man watching Strawberry Shortcake or the Barbie movies - "what are they getting out of this?"

To those who do understand that the show is actually pretty good, there are more levels of squick. See, we're not just watching this show. We're identifying by this show. We're turning it into a significant part of our personalities. I mean, for reference, both of our avatars are characters from the show. We're willing to use an identifier that says "I am in the My Little Pony fandom". It was weird enough when people did that with Star Trek, but this isn't some glorious futuristic space opera with interesting things to say about philosophy and war and banging other species; this is a kid's show about talking horses (with interesting things to say about philosophy and friendship and a fandom with interesting things to say about banging other species).

Speaking of banging other species, rule 34 is always weird, but this is rule 34 of creatures that are explicitly ponies. Also, it's a child's TV show. So you take the usual weirdness of slash fan fiction, and you throw in elements of bestiality and (at least as perceived as some from the outside) pedophilia/hebeophilia... And the fact that there is so ****ing much of it (slightly NSFW; of the top 10 character searches on Paheal, 6 are Friendship is Magic characters; FiM has the second-most porn images of any franchise after Pokemon)...

Basically, you know how some people react badly to trekkies? We're all that, plus a whole bunch of much squickier stuff.

Not that I let that bother me, mind you. After all, this erotic fan fiction ain't gonna write itself! :awesome: And for what it's worth, until I mention that last thing, I rarely ever get any sort of negative reaction. People are just sorta ambivalent towards it.
 
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JayTheUnseen

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I do understand the reason behind the hate, yes. It's the old thing of thinking only of the worst people in a group, thus tainting one's perceptions of all members of said group. Here, we're talking about the people who create or enjoy the explicit artwork of the show. People no doubt begin to think of these things as a trait shared by all of the fans. Sadly, it seems unavoidable.

On a different note though, I think now that it isn't really that interesting a topic. It's been beaten to death, plus anyone who visits this place should be reasonable enough to see past the negative influences in the fandom, thus giving the topic little reason to exist. ( And if they can't do so, they probably won't be able to stay here long anyway. )

I said what I did about it not staying civil, though, because I was going off this previous attempt at debating the topic:
http://smashboards.com/threads/what...is-magic-appeal-to-an-older-age-group.302687/


But I suppose you are clearly familiar with that thread already.
 
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Sehnsucht

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While you say it's "weird" for grown men to enjoy stuff otherwise targeted at younger girls, I suspect it's only considered "weird" due to the norms of our Western culture -- in which older people aren't supposed to like young people stuff (and vice-versa), or boys aren't supposed to like girl stuff (and vice-versa). When you inquire as to why things are supposed to be that way, you're bound to get some appeals to tradition (and traditional gender norms, and so forth). But such appeals don't hold much logical water, and I doubt that there are any sound justifications for keeping strict demarcations based on age and sex and so on. A person likes what they like, and that's all there is to it.

As for bestial connotations in anthropomorphic characters, I think the anthropomorphism is the key. For instance, I doubt that most bronies who find Twilight Sparkle alluring experience this appeal because of the bestial traits. Anthropomorphic characters are only attractive the further humanized and personified they become. Not only do they tend to exhibit physical traits closer to humans (namely in the expressive faces), but they have human personalities. As humans, we're inevitably wired to find appeal in things we observe to share similarities to us and our experience.

If such things were taken out of Twilight Sparkle, you'd be left with a plain horse colored purple with a horn glued on its forehead. Chances are most bronies would lose any attraction they previously had, presented with such a de-personified figure. And if they do find plain horses attractive, they were probably zoophiles to begin with (and that's another discussion).

As such, MLP slash and erotica is fine (as is slash and erotica generally). After all, who does it harm? If you don't like the stuff, just don't read or view it. If you do, read/write/draw/produce at your leisure. Now, if such bronies start going out into the countryside to stick their unicorns into horses and other livestock, then you might have cause for concern.
 

Claire Diviner

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While MLP isn't my cup of tea (believe me, I tried watching it several times to give it a chance), I have nothing against it or anyone who enjoys it. Besides, I've known people who were into more "weirder" things, though for the sake of modesty, I won't go into detail. If I've learned one thing about the world from the Internet alone, it's that everything will piss off some group of people, and the MLP fan base is no different.

At least my 4-year-old can like the show in my place.

Hey guys? You know that new thread I started? If you're considering going through that Rolf Hefti article, I have a recommendation: don't. Those are 30 minutes of my life I will never get back. :glare:
I've skimmed through some of that thread, but haven't gotten into it yet for several reasons. The biggest reason being that I tend to take extended breaks between major debating (like that marijuana debate).

Another reason being that I'm not too in the loop in the matters of government and FDA-related news either, so I suppose I can read the comments, research the necessary info, compare and contrast, and give my two cents and a danish at a later point.

Also, 30 minutes? I wonder what that article was even about.
 
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Also, 30 minutes? I wonder what that article was even about.
The problem is that I went through fact-checking, and the article makes it obnoxiously difficult to do so. Also, it's written about as concisely and as well-organizedly as Time Cube. When I say 30 minutes, I mean in 30 minutes I made it through about 1/8th of the article and stopped.

I do understand the reason behind the hate, yes. It's the old thing of thinking only of the worst people in a group, thus tainting one's perceptions of all members of said group. Here, we're talking about the people who create or enjoy the explicit artwork of the show. People no doubt begin to think of these things as a trait shared by all of the fans. Sadly, it seems unavoidable.
It's really not even that, though. It's mostly the Trekkie stigma. Here's this piece of pop culture we're making a significant part of our identity. Why? Why are we doing this? I don't know. Oh, and it's a kid's show which doesn't exactly look like anything special.

I said what I did about it not staying civil, though, because I was going off this previous attempt at debating the topic:
http://smashboards.com/threads/what...is-magic-appeal-to-an-older-age-group.302687/
http://smashboards.com/threads/what...is-magic-appeal-to-an-older-age-group.302687/
But I suppose you are clearly familiar with that thread already.
Oh wow that brings me way back. :) (Man, I forgot what a **** Battlecow was...)

While you say it's "weird" for grown men to enjoy stuff otherwise targeted at younger girls, I suspect it's only considered "weird" due to the norms of our Western culture -- in which older people aren't supposed to like young people stuff (and vice-versa), or boys aren't supposed to like girl stuff (and vice-versa).
I'd personally say it's got a lot more to do with MLP, and most "girly" shows, having a track record of sucking really, really hard (for whatever reason). Nobody bats an eye at you if you're an adult fan of, say, Spongebob Squarepants, even though that show pitches its balls so straight across the "6-year-old on saturday morning" plate that you'd need to put on a little league costume just to get near the batter's box. But that's because everyone knows it's consistently funny and generally good to watch. If you're an adult fan of, I dunno, Barbie, the question quickly becomes "what is wrong with you". And those who haven't looked into FiM will often lump it together with those, because throughout history, "boy's" shows have included things like Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob, which were actually kinda great, and "girl's" shows have included things like My Little Pony (generation 3) and Barbie, which were actually kinda irredeemably awful. Don't ask me why.
 

Sehnsucht

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I'd personally say it's got a lot more to do with MLP, and most "girly" shows, having a track record of sucking really, really hard (for whatever reason). Nobody bats an eye at you if you're an adult fan of, say, Spongebob Squarepants, even though that show pitches its balls so straight across the "6-year-old on saturday morning" plate that you'd need to put on a little league costume just to get near the batter's box. But that's because everyone knows it's consistently funny and generally good to watch. If you're an adult fan of, I dunno, Barbie, the question quickly becomes "what is wrong with you". And those who haven't looked into FiM will often lump it together with those, because throughout history, "boy's" shows have included things like Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob, which were actually kinda great, and "girl's" shows have included things like My Little Pony (generation 3) and Barbie, which were actually kinda irredeemably awful. Don't ask me why.
That's still peculiar.

Suppose I think, or know, that many shows targeted toward young girls tend to be bad, quality-wise. Am I suddenly going to be inclined to give people **** if they enjoy such shows?

Maybe I would ask how a person could possibly enjoy MLP, given this. And then they would proceed to explain that, unlike past MLP properties, FiM has actual quality and substance (due to factors XYZ). And I would go "Alright, fair enough". Maybe I'd leave it at that. Maybe I would be intrigued enough to give the show a shot. And maybe I would like what I see. Or maybe I wouldn't. But if I didn't like FiM, why would I give those that do a hard time?

Perhaps a person perceives negative qualities in the MLP fandom. So what do they do? Do they berate every brony they come across? Or do they go "hey mang y u do dis ting"?

I dunno. Seems something so small out of which to make so big a deal. Unless it is the case that ponydom is a total cesspool of equine-loving rapscallions -- in which case the causes of these behaviours might be worth studying (since slinging around caustic sentiments could only ever make things worse).
 

adumbrodeus

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The answer for why people are so uncivil about bronydom is pretty much misogyny. Yep I said it. It's a reaction to people crossing gender roles lines, but specifically males crossing it to lower themselves which tends to provoke a very negative societal reaction. A lot of reactions to this tend to be a level of disgust which isn't really consciously controlled but reactions tend to be very strong.
 

Sucumbio

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Har har har haaaaaa.

I love MLP. I do not call myself a brony tho... Tara Strong fan is really why though... I don't care for her in MGS5 tho.
 

Claire Diviner

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Just wanted to stop by and say that I won't be around much in the DH or Smashboards. I'm cutting down significantly on all forms of social media to try and motivate myself to do some productive things, like writing my novel, among others. I'll still drop by from time to time to give my points where needed, but just felt I'd share it with you guys in particular.

Ciao. :3

Har har har haaaaaa.

I love MLP. I do not call myself a brony tho... Tara Strong fan is really why though... I don't care for her in MGS5 tho.
Really? Tara Strong does a voice in MLP? Intriguing.
 

JayTheUnseen

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Just wanted to stop by and say that I won't be around much in the DH or Smashboards. I'm cutting down significantly on all forms of social media to try and motivate myself to do some productive things, like writing my novel, among others. I'll still drop by from time to time to give my points where needed, but just felt I'd share it with you guys in particular.

Ciao. :3


Really? Tara Strong does a voice in MLP? Intriguing.
Yeah, she voices the purple pony named Twilight ( who is somewhat the main character. )
 
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Sucumbio

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Just wanted to stop by and say that I won't be around much in the DH or Smashboards. I'm cutting down significantly on all forms of social media to try and motivate myself to do some productive things, like writing my novel, among others. I'll still drop by from time to time to give my points where needed, but just felt I'd share it with you guys in particular.

Ciao. :3


Really? Tara Strong does a voice in MLP? Intriguing.
Yep, I've been a fan of hers since teen titans really...

Good to hear you are writing and stuff. Hanging out on the Internet all day is pretty terrible lol
 

Sehnsucht

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Just wanted to stop by and say that I won't be around much in the DH or Smashboards. I'm cutting down significantly on all forms of social media to try and motivate myself to do some productive things, like writing my novel, among others. I'll still drop by from time to time to give my points where needed, but just felt I'd share it with you guys in particular.

Ciao. :3
.
I would offer to invite you to the Writer's Lounge Group (which I co-founded), since it could present a resource for you as a writer. But if you're taking a sabbatical, I suppose that will have to wait (though if you still want in, just ask).

I myself have ambitious writing goals, so I'm all for others writing. I'm waving the pom-poms in your corner. *\_8D_/*

Good to hear you are writing and stuff. Hanging out on the Internet all day is pretty terrible lol
Yep. Can't argue with that.

<_<
 
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If I may...

@ B Braydon , and this goes for everyone.

The entire argument against it being bad for society is just people being in denial.
This sentence bothers me. Like, it's not possible that you're wrong, over overstating your position. Everyone else is simply in denial, regardless of why they hold the position they hold.

This is not the sign of someone holding an open-minded discussion.

Are you open to having your mind changed by evidence and reasoning at all? Because if not, there's no point in continuing. See also: this chart (which is good for far more than simply debating with religious folks, and can be seen as a general set of guidelines for productive discussion on any topic).



Personally, I feel that some of this is overstated. Particularly the "rules" - they aren't all necessary (although 3 and 4 are pretty much non-negotiable).

But that bit at the top? The "can you imagine anything that could change your mind" bit? That's crucially important. Because if nothing could change your mind, then no debate is possible, and it's a waste of everyone's time to debate. And when you say "everyone who disagrees with me is in denial"... Well, you've straight-up poisoned the well. Any of our arguments can be summarily dismissed because, after all, if we disagree with you, we're delusional.

Please don't do this.
 

adumbrodeus

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I had an ex who used to use that chart and when I tried to discuss an issue that was necessary to proving my point he'd say I violated rule 2 >_<
 

adumbrodeus

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Yes, I know, he was generally not a very good person, something I realized much later, but winning discussions was very important to his self-esteem so he tried to squint to make the rule fit, something I objected to since I obviously hadn't changed topic and was merely going in depth.
 

Triforce of Love

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Can anyone tell me what nintendo is doing for the community? This is not a troll rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious what nintendo sponsorship is bringing to the community.
 

Claire Diviner

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What about stop dating them? The ability to discuss things like a rational human being is sorta important to a relationship.
I guess I'm a masochist then, because my girlfriend strongly believes in the supernatural, and arguing against said supernatural, even with sources, will not change her mind in the least. I wonder why I keep getting unlucky when it comes to dating people who don't share my kind of logic.
 

adumbrodeus

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I guess I'm a masochist then, because my girlfriend strongly believes in the supernatural, and arguing against said supernatural, even with sources, will not change her mind in the least. I wonder why I keep getting unlucky when it comes to dating people who don't share my kind of logic.
Why's that an issue unless your fights are bitter?

My problem with my ex was he didn't know how to disagree without being disagreeable, nothing wrong with having differing views if you can do that.
 

Claire Diviner

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Why's that an issue unless your fights are bitter?

My problem with my ex was he didn't know how to disagree without being disagreeable, nothing wrong with having differing views if you can do that.
My problem isn't her views more than she doesn't give any arguments other than faith. Faith is a nice idea, but that alone does nothing to strengthen one's argument in a debate.
 

Claire Diviner

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A bit of an update, because I feel like sharing it with you guys in particular:

I'm at a little over 32,000 words in my book so far. Honestly, I'm aiming for anywhere between 75,000-100,000 words. At the rate I'm going, I could definitely reach that goal. This is just the first book, mind you; I intend to do five books in the series. If I can motivate myself to do at least one chapter a day, I should do fine, and maybe finish my first book well before the year's end.

The only obstacle afterward, is getting the thing published, and I don't know where to go for that, and the target demographic leans more toward young adults (not that it contains smut or anything).

well that's not a discussion, accept it as such and don't talk aboot the topic or leave, no real middle ground
That goes without saying. It's still annoying regardless, though it could be worse, all things considered.
 

Sehnsucht

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Behind your eyes.
A bit of an update, because I feel like sharing it with you guys in particular:

I'm at a little over 32,000 words in my book so far. Honestly, I'm aiming for anywhere between 75,000-100,000 words. At the rate I'm going, I could definitely reach that goal. This is just the first book, mind you; I intend to do five books in the series. If I can motivate myself to do at least one chapter a day, I should do fine, and maybe finish my first book well before the year's end.

The only obstacle afterward, is getting the thing published, and I don't know where to go for that, and the target demographic leans more toward young adults (not that it contains smut or anything).
That's rad as ****. I wish you much success. :hangten:

And writing is perhaps the only thing I can actually discuss intelligently. So I'd be glad to lend any insights I might possess, should you have need of it (*plug* also do consider joining the Writer's Lounge *plug*).

Imma write n' publish some boss stories down the line as well. You and me, we're going to spearhead the next wave of fantabulous modern literature. :awesome:
 
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