The Custom Laboratory -Nayru's Rejection

[S.F.L.R_9]

Yes even if the flare is at minimum distance. It's incredibly strong

...woah
that's kind of insane
i actually see no reason to use Blaze over it now.

Wait so since Blaze is the slower, power version and it has more cooldown, does Flare have less cooldown than Fire or is it the same?

 

[Macchiato]

...woah
that's kind of insane
i actually see no reason to use Blaze over it now.

Wait so since Blaze is the slower, power version and it has more cooldown, does Flare have less cooldown than Fire or is it the same?

Idk but it's faster, has more range, and is incredibly strong. I've killed DDD at like 65% with it. But idk bout cooldown.

 

[Lavani]

...woah
that's kind of insane
i actually see no reason to use Blaze over it now.

Wait so since Blaze is the slower, power version and it has more cooldown, does Flare have less cooldown than Fire or is it the same?

Same end lag, the tradeoff is you can barely angle it up/down and the explosion is smaller.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

65% HOLY CRAP
i'm gonna go test the cooldown right now. Flare actually sounds amazing

oh nvm, thanks Lavani. I think Flare is the best one then

 

[Macchiato]

65% HOLY CRAP
i'm gonna go test the cooldown right now. Flare actually sounds amazing

oh nvm, thanks Lavani. I think Flare is the best one then

Just being faster makes it easier to hit.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So I was just messing around with Flare in training mode and I found out

jab at mid to high percents to Flare = a substitute for jab to FW except you can alter the direction if they roll.

 

[LRodC]

Flare is nice for a quick projectile that has strength throughout and Blaze is really nice for edgeguarding and can have nice stage control. It depends on the match up really and it's personal preference for what you prefer. I really like edgeguarding so I prefer Blaze but if I'm against an opponent that I'd appreciate the added pressure I'd go Flare. You shouldn't use regular Din's ever if these two are available unless it's doubles.

 

[PUK]

The window for blaze edgeguard is small and not really rewarding: you can barely move before it exploses.
Now it's strong point is it shutdowns ledge camping on a bigger extent than fire. It's match up dependant, flare being better on stage, fire and blaze off stage, blaze being slightly better due to the loss of the dead angle but needing more timing precision.
It's funny though: at the beginning of custom discussion we all agreed that flare was the worst, and that all the nayru's variation was useless. Look the road we traveled from this time.
Also blaze is better in double because your teamate can act and enjoy the reaction it provocs. And he can protect you from retaliation: luigi falcon ness and anything who enjoy shield will love this.
With strike and his set knock back: you can do strike->falcon punch combo at kill percent lol so much disrespect. BAN ZELDA PLZ TOO OP.

 

[meleebrawler]

I can't think of a match up where I'd rather any of the other Phantoms than strike honestly.

You mean you can't think of any TOP TIER matchups where you'd rather take strike?

In all seriousness though, strike probably is the safest choice due to never having a dead zone
that leaves Zelda vulnerable, though all the phantoms have their uses, really.

And Breaker is probably good against a certain ledge-happy custom Villager that's all the rage these days.

 

[Macchiato]

You mean you can't think of any TOP TIER matchups where you'd rather take strike?

In all seriousness though, strike probably is the safest choice due to never having a dead zone
that leaves Zelda vulnerable, though all the phantoms have their uses, really.

And Breaker is probably good against a certain ledge-happy custom Villager that's all the rage these days.

I really think that breaker is really outclassed by slash. I think that against villager, slash is still better due to ability to actually kill and more damage while having as much range fully charged. There isn't a match up where I'd pick breaker over the others.

 

[meleebrawler]

I really think that breaker is really outclassed by slash. I think that against villager, slash is still better due to ability to actually kill and more damage while having as much range fully charged. There isn't a match up where I'd pick breaker over the others.

*cough*long charging period*cough*easy pocket*cough*

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Should we use Fire or Flare against Rosalina? Flare is faster, has a more consistent reward, and can probably get through Shooting Star Bit spam better than the default. However, Rosalina can just jump over Flare whereas Fire lets us depatch Luma wherever Rosa is in addition to having a larger hitbox. I'm thinking she's like the only MU where we should use Din's Fire, but Flare is still very useful so I'm undecided

 

[Macchiato]

Should we use Fire or Flare against Rosalina? Flare is faster, has a more consistent reward, and can probably get through Shooting Star Bit spam better than the default. However, Rosalina can just jump over Flare whereas Fire lets us depatch Luma wherever Rosa is in addition to having a larger hitbox. I'm thinking she's like the only MU where we should use Din's Fire, but Flare is still very useful so I'm undecided

I say flare because speed

*cough*long charging period*cough*easy pocket*cough*

*cough* Breaker takes longer to charge *cough*

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ Macchiato Wanna test it later today once I'm out of school and you can play? We could do a few matches where I use 2311 Rosalina and you use custom Zelda. Maybe 2 matches with Flare, and 2 with Fire to see which one is better against her

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato Wanna test it later today once I'm out of school and you can play? We could do a few matches where I use 2311 Rosalina and you use custom Zelda. Maybe 2 matches with Flare, and 2 with Fire to see which one is better against her

Yeah sure

 

[meleebrawler]

*cough* Breaker takes longer to charge *cough*

Then don't charge it. The fact that you get a lot of distance regardless of charge means you can play bigger mindgames at that distance than with default. I consider the lower damage a fair trade-off for that. It may be the most inflexible in use,
but the area it does cover is handled very well.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Flare is a lot better at getting rid of Luma than the default or Blaze

Flare is definitely better. Even if you jumped over it I could still hit you while you were using Shooting Star Bits. I also noticed that during our camping war you were overall taking more damage than me so even if I got hit it didn't matter.

 

[PUK]

Oh sis i think passion could be awesome as a anti air tool: it increase momentum toward you, and messes with opponent spacing, punishing it right after with a 15% hit. For exemple jiggle or Diddy tries to approach with Fair, but a well spaced passion will put them behind u, and then hit them. And if there are above moving down it forces them to land. So it could be one of our best custom against our worst MU.
Also stage spike are always funny and passion give you this possibility.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I think we should experiment with Passion after ledge trumping
It isn't a guaranteed option but your opponent either

A. Gets pulled in by the windbox and possibly under the stage
B. Hit with it
C. Airdodges and either of these happen
D. Jumps away and can't punish you without risk because you have a large hitbox and windbox surrounding you
or E. Drifts away from you and risks not recovering, or if they have a very good recovery they risk being spiked by dair on their way back

 

[PUK]

The wind box makes stranges things with air dodge, just send a CPU far under the stage. He was moving down, AD long before the explosion and just fly like a falcon.
A hit can kill at low percent off stage, can stage spike or send onstage.
It's close to impossible to hit with a lot of move while being pulled in the wind box, it could be able to stop a lot of juggle.
What does it do to to warp, or other up B: if it's like kong cyclone it could be valuable.
What happens if you use it in kong cyclone?
If the opponent spotdodge or use a counter he's not affected, but shield are.
It can punish dash grab and dash attack.
It's definitively different from other nayru, but seems very valuable.

 

[LRodC]

Passion is fun but I never really saw the appeal of it. I guess it could be good versus characters without projectiles but that's about it really. The damage and power gain never seemed really worth it to me versus losing the reflector, especially when she has other tools for killing and damaging.

 

[PUK]

Make some test.
Currently I would run passion in a mojority of MU, and love/rejection against robin, WFT, link (not because of the projectiles though), samus, maybe villager, pacman, TL, lucario maybe, mii gunner and that's it. On all other MU the reward obtained when you reflect a projectile is too small compared to the punishment you risk. So if you compare 2 moves in these MU you have to ignore reflector, and go with question like: does it kill, is it safe on shield, can i use it to combo...
Passion has some good arguments.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The thing is Nayru's Love is used more as a get off of me move than as a reflector since it comes out so fast. Both Rejection and Passion have more startup frames, so if you're using either of those then good luck escaping combos or pressure. Even if a character doesn't have any or significant projectiles, you'll still want Love. I.e. Falcon can pressure us a lot but has no projectiles. Love would still be superior despite his lack of projectiles.

 

[PUK]

I will test but i think passion could hard counter flacon bread an butter, and is safer overall (less end lag, bigger range, safe on shield).
In fact using love against falcon is close to spamm FW in the "things you shall not do" subject unless your perfectly sure it will hit. Falcon is able to dash grab before hitbox come out, shield or wait against love. Passion is close to safe in all these situation. Need more test because it's still more theorycrafting but i'm pretty sure of what i'm saying.
If someone dash toward you passion send him behind you. The only option he has then is reverse f tilt, jump, roll, reverse grab, shield. And that only if he doesn't push grab button, or attack button.
Reverse grab and Ftilt have to be faster than the explosion. Jump aerial has the same problem. Shield is safe but you can't punish, as is roll.

 

[Macchiato]

I tested passion and it just straight out sucks...

The customs I think have potential are Squall, Flare, and Strike

 

[LRodC]

I tested passion and it just straight out sucks...

The customs I think have potential are Squall, Flare, and Strike

I think Blaze does as well. It makes her a lot more threatening on the edge. It forces opponents to recover where she wants. It can also be directed into the stage too and work as a time bomb of sorts.

 

[Macchiato]

I think Blaze does as well. It makes her a lot more threatening on the edge. It forces opponents to recover where she wants. It can also be directed into the stage too and work as a time bomb of sorts.

Not really, if you direct it somewhere. It probably won't explode when you'll like it to. Also, if you direct it on the ledge, they can grab it and invincibility saves them. It's really not threatening at all, it doesn't help edgeguarding at all really. On the stage is really bad too, with that cool down, your gonna get punished each time.

 

[PUK]

I tested passion and it just straight out sucks...

The customs I think have potential are Squall, Flare, and Strike

Why do you think passion sucks? When i tested it i was able to make things love or rejection can't do.

 

[Macchiato]

Why do you think passion sucks? When i tested it i was able to make things love or rejection can't do.

It only makes things shes already decent at better. The problem is she gets another glaring weakness which is, she has no way to relieve pressure.

@ Zylach I was watching videos and your Zelda was great. You definitely should've beaten that diddy, but it seemed like Blaze and Breaker weren't doing much. Have yew tried Flare or Strike? They're both really good.

Flare is great for neutral game, it's better at forcing approaches. It is much faster and has more range. The best part is that it's ridiculously strong. It always does as much KB and damage as Din's Fire's maximum distance, regardless of its difference. It's easier to hit with too. It helps with punishes midrange. Din's Fire or Blaze isn't good for edgeguarding so I think it's worth it.

Strike is the best phantom hands down. It charges really fast and does insane damage. It has no blindspot and uncharged it pushes way farther than default. It also semi-spikes and can gimp some chatacters like Shulk, Link, Mario, etc. You can do many things with it. You can dtilt and bair and airdodge and get a free 30%. Take these to consideration.

 

[Lavani]

A little detail to Windfall's credit: Zelda's able to drift to the sides immediately after the attack, unlike Wind and Squall which force her to drop a significant distance before she can really control where she's falling.

Not that big a deal overall, but if nothing else her landing if she whiffs an elevator isn't as predictable.

 

[Zylach]

It only makes things shes already decent at better. The problem is she gets another glaring weakness which is, she has no way to relieve pressure.

@ Zylach I was watching videos and your Zelda was great. You definitely should've beaten that diddy, but it seemed like Blaze and Breaker weren't doing much. Have yew tried Flare or Strike? They're both really good.

Flare is great for neutral game, it's better at forcing approaches. It is much faster and has more range. The best part is that it's ridiculously strong. It always does as much KB and damage as Din's Fire's maximum distance, regardless of its difference. It's easier to hit with too. It helps with punishes midrange. Din's Fire or Blaze isn't good for edgeguarding so I think it's worth it.

Strike is the best phantom hands down. It charges really fast and does insane damage. It has no blindspot and uncharged it pushes way farther than default. It also semi-spikes and can gimp some chatacters like Shulk, Link, Mario, etc. You can do many things with it. You can dtilt and bair and airdodge and get a free 30%. Take these to consideration.

Thanks a lot! For the record, this was my very first sm4sh tourney and I knew none of the people there. That Diddy went on to win the entire tournament so I don't feel bad and he's a really good player. That said, I look forward to facing him again because I feel more competent about facing higher level players now.

I've experimented a little bit with phantom strike and will experiment with it some more after looking at all the people that have recently said how much they like it. I haven't used flare a whole lot and will experiment with it as well. I definitely agree that my specials weren't doing me a whole lot of favors during those matches and I think that was part of why I lost (Looking back at the footage for the 4th time the other day, recognized all of my errors and was yelling, "why are you doing that?!" at myself )

What I wish was that that tournament had a doubles tourney as well. The guy I tied with for 5th and I did doubles matches at a local smash gathering a week after that tourney and rocked everyone.

 

[Macchiato]

Thanks a lot! For the record, this was my very first sm4sh tourney and I knew none of the people there. That Diddy went on to win the entire tournament so I don't feel bad and he's a really good player. That said, I look forward to facing him again because I feel more competent about facing higher level players now.

I've experimented a little bit with phantom strike and will experiment with it some more after looking at all the people that have recently said how much they like it. I haven't used flare a whole lot and will experiment with it as well. I definitely agree that my specials weren't doing me a whole lot of favors during those matches and I think that was part of why I lost (Looking back at the footage for the 4th time the other day, recognized all of my errors and was yelling, "why are you doing that?!" at myself )

What I wish was that that tournament had a doubles tourney as well. The guy I tied with for 5th and I did doubles matches at a local smash gathering a week after that tourney and rocked everyone.

Great job though. Flare and Strike are really just direct upgrades.

 

[LRodC]

After messing with the phantom customs, I think Strike is far and away the best. It does everything the others do except kill and break shields, and it does more damage in a shorter charge time. As for Din's, I've been messing with Flare and it's definitely the best of the bunch, but I find myself missing Din's Blaze or Fire to set landing traps. Is it worth the tradeoff enough to exclusively use it or are there other uses of the other customs that warrant them being used over Flare? I could ask the same about Breaker and Slash over Strike. I would think Slash would be better in a teams or FFA setting.

 

[Macchiato]

After messing with the phantom customs, I think Strike is far and away the best. It does everything the others do except kill and break shields, and it does more damage in a shorter charge time. As for Din's, I've been messing with Flare and it's definitely the best of the bunch, but I find myself missing Din's Blaze or Fire to set landing traps. Is it worth the tradeoff enough to exclusively use it or are there other uses of the other customs that warrant them being used over Flare? I could ask the same about Breaker and Slash over Strike. I would think Slash would be better in a teams or FFA setting.

Fire is good against Ledge Happy Custom Villagers since it can't be pocketed. Blaze is just a mess

 

[sadn3ss]

tbh i feel like zeldas dafualts are better than her customs in most cases

 

[meleebrawler]

tbh i feel like zeldas dafualts are better than her customs in most cases

In what scenario do you feel that Din's Fire is better than others outside of edgeguarding napping opponents?

 

[sadn3ss]

In what scenario do you feel that Din's Fire is better than others outside of edgeguarding napping opponents?

I just think that for many charecters the dafault is better mostly becuase of edgegaurding

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda already has a good edgeguarding game with nair and dair though. Din's Fire barely ever hits someone offstage so you might as well swap it out for Flare or Blaze. Phantom Strike totally improves her edgeguarding game since it semispikes at a really bad angle for your opponent

 

[Macchiato]

Zelda already has a good edgeguarding game with nair and dair though. Din's Fire barely ever hits someone offstage so you might as well swap it out for Flare or Blaze. Phantom Strike totally improves her edgeguarding game since it semispikes at a really bad angle for your opponent

Don't forget the Nayru customs for trolling. There's also squall for some MUs like Diddy, Peach, ZSS, etc.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I understand why, but can someone test her most useless Farores custom?(forgot name)
I mean, yes just by the description it's easy to tell its kinda crap, but maybe there is more about it we don't know?
I mean is the distance larger then Normal? Is it an extremely powerful meteor that hits anywhere once she reappears? Does it Sweetspot the ledge or whatever?
You know it wouldn't hurt to make sure that we aren't overlooking it too much.

Now that people mention it........I think the phantom that travels low distance but has more power(is this the one people are mentioning?) Seems good. I thought breaker could be extremely helpful, but....... People just have to not shield and it's really not too deadly, but it's set distance is nice. Maybe in a way, people could kinda have trouble figuring out the difference between the 3? You know, it could fake me out.

I always thought blaze was the best, I mean flare is fast but it can't really be angled?(I'm VERY inexperienced with customs)
It has the same power throughout the move, so mabey that's actually good?

Idk about Neutral, I thought Rejection was cool, it can turn people around and reflect projectiles. But yea the fact it is slower is a little.....risky in a way to avoid combos and pressure because Love is great at that even if I don't use it often.
Passion.....Idk it seems very weird. If only I could play with people while having customs on

That's what I know of....sorta, I just hope someone can explain them a little better?