The Custom Laboratory -Nayru's Rejection

[Nammy12]

Spoiler: Naryu's rejection intangibility

I think the intangibility starts on frame 8 (she glows white then so I assume she's invincible at that point)

The barrier itself forms on frame 13 so I'm assuming the intangibility lasts from 8-12.

Spoiler: Naryu's love intangibility

It starts on frame 5 but I'm not exactly sure when it ends

 

[Fernosaur]

Waiting on Rejection

I'll make a section for Rejection too, but we'll focus on Blaze for the time being cause I think it will be more useful than Rejection in the long run. Don't sweat it, Mr jiggs main

 

[Macchiato]

I'll make a section for Rejection too, but we'll focus on Blaze for the time being cause I think it will be more useful than Rejection in the long run. Don't sweat it, Mr jiggs main

Imo I think flare and rejections better but okay. What? Who said that I was a jiggs main

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

A random thought about Din's Blaze:
It could be extremely useful for pressure on the ledge. If you place a Blaze at the ledge, they can get up and you can grab or read a roll/spotdodge, they can do a getup roll and you can punish that; same with a jump.

 

[Macchiato]

I don't think there's anything else about dins blaze, it's a good edgeguard tool and yew can do that doubles thing but that's it really. Should we move on to nayrus rejection

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I don't think there's anything else about dins blaze, it's a good edgeguard tool and yew can do that doubles thing but that's it really. Should we move on to nayrus rejection

We should try to find a way to replicate whatever you did that one time when you only got the cape effect from it

 

[Fernosaur]

I don't think there's anything else about dins blaze, it's a good edgeguard tool and yew can do that doubles thing but that's it really. Should we move on to nayrus rejection

I haven't had time to update the OP, so I'll just change the title I guess and add the stuff for Blaze later. I'm not gonna have time until two weeks from now so if someone wants to compile the info on Blaze I'd be thankful . You can start out posting stuff about Rejection if you want!

 

[Macchiato]

Spoiler: Nayru's Rejection

Taking a much closer look at Nayru's Rejection atm and It's not frame 1 intangible. This is why it can't break out of combos like squall can. I can't tell exactly since I am using 1/4 speed in training (not a good indicator of frames) but it seems to be around frame 3-5 intangible. It may be a couple of frames faster than Nayru's Love or it may be the same. She definitely goes intangible before the actual crystal surrounds her but not on frame 1. Once the crystal forms around her she seems to lose her intangible frames. This is also why moves pass through her at the beginning of this move. With perfect timing you can catch a move with the intangible frames that come out before the reflect frames.

Spoiler: pictures

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.

If you read an approach and throw out Rejection you can probably get a free grab combo out of it. You do risk the opponent running in with shield though, but that is an issue Nayru's Love has also. Nayru's Love stops approaches pretty well but it's very hard to combo it into anything barring the occasional Farore's Wind on a missed tech. If this move is going to see any sort of use it would be for its ability to actually combo into something while stuffing approaches.

Ok a couple of interesting things I have picked up for Nayru's Rejection. Believe it or not, this may have some use...
The beginning diamond frames ALWAYS reflect opponents so they face away from Zelda. It's also very difficult for me (controlling p2) to hit Zelda after this using Marth, even when inputting the opposite direction to cancel the cape effect. However, when I switched to Sheik she can easily land f-tilts when inputting the opposite direction to cancel out the cape effect.
Near the end of the diamond hits they transform into wind based hit boxes that push away. This second portion of the move made it extremely difficult for Sheik to hit Zelda at all where as the first part she easily got through just by attacking in the opposite direction.
Using these ending wind box hits also seems to gives Zelda enough time to perfect shield attacks even if the opponent does end up inputting the opposite direction to nullify the cape. This also means you have enough time to follow up off Nayru's Rejection if they input an attack in the wrong direction. Follow up potential is a pretty big positive if this ends up being right. It's kinda difficult to test it myself since I am already using custom controls to control 2 characters for the easy stuff lol.

That's it, someone heeya needs to make a TRUE Zelda character description instead of this one.
EdiT : Actually, if anyone wants to get me a good pic of black dress Zelda in this angle and pose ^ in the desc. picture, (On this stage too, why not. It has a godd background.) I would be very much obliged, as It has good potential as a black dress Zelda w/ salt shaker pic. :D
So this image just shows a few different states of the move, and not the closest intervals you could catch using 1/4 (Hold L) right?
Well, let's see, the reflector starts on real frame 18 (Via the frame speed multiplier altered for the first 12 frames to be x1.5, thus > 18 frames.) so I sort of answered that myself, lol.
The intangibility start trigger must've been altered in designing this move, (If it really does start intangibility on frame 3-5) as if it were a completely raw ONLY frame speed change to the startup, the intangibility would start around frame 7, and it obviously, does NOT.
Also, whatever frame total the intangibility actually lasts (Whether it was the same "till the hit-box" or different from the standard variation.) its duration would be mulitplied by x1.5 as well, so its intangibility should be decently longer than Nayru's Love (As much as 5 frames) Sort of getting a little carried away here I suppose...
Unfortunately, the mastercore doesn't have the data for when her Nayrus' intangible frames start and end, but one way you could try to find them is like, make a video of a move being used in 1/4 speed, and then slow down the video recording as well and possibly get very close estimates by counting the visual frame changes? I mean, an old Brawl video showing Zelda's dsmash arm glitch did something like this and was able to show the arm's apparently 1 frame long glitching very clearly.

It blocks the K.O punch and rest appearently, also sometimes its safe to approach with this

 

[tingletoner]

It may be possible to end a string of nairs with nayru's rejection, which could allow for a regrab since they're facing away. Anyone think this is remotely viable? I haven't tested it with humans.

Edit: Ok just from playing a lot of matches against lvl 9s I've noticed that hitting NR in the air is like pretty much impossible if you want the full effect. You can however, hit them on the landing for an easy grab if it connects. In fact any time you hit nayru's rejection you can get some nice grabs off it seems.

 

[Fernosaur]

It may be possible to end a string of nairs with nayru's rejection, which could allow for a regrab since they're facing away. Anyone think this is remotely viable? I haven't tested it with humans.

Time to get into the lab!! @ Macchiato

Holy **** I have to get back to organising this thread. As soon as I'm done with my work I'm gonna try and complie everything guys, sorry for killing the research momentum oTL

 

[tingletoner]

If that doesn't work, Nayru's passion can end such a combo in a similar way, but it instead deals extra damage and shoots them far enough away so you're safe. The windbox on Nayru's passion also helps to connect it in the air. Again though, needs to be tested.

 

[Macchiato]

Nayrus rejection will seperate the crystal animation and the windbox if yew love boost or love jump. It's weird but I haven't found a use yet

 

[Macchiato]

Nayru's Rejection

Thanks to wonderful new information found by @D3RK and complemented by @BJN39, we have found possible new uses for this custom move. Nayru's Rejection has a unique windbox and also has more intangibility than Nayru's Love.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Possible Applications
Nayru's Rejection is Zelda's second Side-B special. It substitutes Nayru's Rejection speed with a bunch of potential follow-ups, and adds a cape effect. Due to the low knockback, it enables Zelda to get free grab combos. It also is a free reset to neutral. It also can help Zelda create opportunities due to the cape effect able to make opponents moves whiff.

It is not a substitute for a oos option. It is used as a kill or combo set up. Due to its slower frame data, it isn't usable as a oos option.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frame Stuff

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.
Its intangibility is about 5 frames longer than Nayru's Love making it an interesting approach or counter. For example sometimes if a character is about to throw out a smash, if Zelda throws out Rejection at the right time. She will avoid the smash while still getting the hit in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Windbox
It has a very weird windbox, sometimes when it whiffs. The windbox will push your opponent away so you'll be safe.
In some multihitting moves, if you already throw out a Rejection and they hit you have the intangibility frames. It might pop out of the move. Like Zelda's Jab for example.
Also if you Love jump, Love boost, or stand on a moving platform, the windbox and crystal will separate. That needs more testing.

Love Jumping Nayru's Rejection.

Regular Nayru's Rejection for comparison.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Other
If timed right it will avoid some moves like rest or the K.O Punch. This could be useful but needs more testing


here @ Fernosaur I organized it for yew

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So I found some things with Rejection. If you hit someone closer to the end of the move, they get flipped around by the hitboxes AND pushed by the windbox. The other thing I found is that when using Rejection to edgeguard against someone coming back to the stage, it also flips their momentum. What I mean is like, if someone is drifting toward the stage and you reject them (lol) they'll drift away from the stage at the same speed, making it harder for them to come back.

 

[Macchiato]

Due to the unpredictability with Rejection, it's gonna be a very annoying and confusing tool zelda will have. Its easy for the opponent to get an input while they're facing the other way letting his punish. It's also a good way to get an elevator off. Me and @ S.F.L.R_9 have come with the conclusion that Love is better for rush down characters but Rejection is better for most other match ups.

I think we're done with rejection

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So @ Macchiato and I came up with what MU's we should use Love and which we should use Rejection. I think that Love should be used for projectile spam characters as well because although they are not rush down characters, it makes it easier for Zelda to reflect their projectiles since Love is faster.

Nayru's Love: Custom

Nayru's Rejection: Default

 

[Macchiato]

Passion has use omg. It's good against ledge rolls and attacks due to the big windbox. It's also useful for gimping too. Since they don't want to hit, they'll air dodge but the windbox will pull them under the stage and could mess up their recovery. It's either get hit it get gimped. It's also safe on shield

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I discovered that if you use Farore's Squall on reaction or in the first few frames the hitbox of ZSS' fsmash is out, you'll escape it. We already know we can get out of her Boost Kick, so she's lost her two most reliable kill options against us. Even if we can't time it perfectly, she should only be going for fsmash off of a stun and BK off of a stun or OOS, so we can be prepared to use FS if these situations occur.

Her only other moves with significant knockback are the kick of Flip Jump and bair, so those are now her only reliable kill options against us. However, at kill percents if she stuns Zelda and tries to do the kick of FJ, she'll either have to run and space it (she won't have enough time before the stun wears off) or go for the kick at close range, and most of the time she'll only be able to get the spike hitbox of it (which won't kill grounded until ~160%)

So, if we can master the timing / reaction time on this, ZSS can now only kill us reliably with bair at about 120-140%.

 

[Macchiato]

I discovered another thing about squall. Against Zelda, after a dthrow. We'll still can get hit with an aerial, but if we do. It positions the other Zelda to where she has no chance of getting a follow up. Also, after the end hitbox, we can bait for an airdodge and uair. I think on some stages with platforms like battlefield or Town and city, we can get a free uair if they land on a platform after the Hitbox at the end.

 

[meleebrawler]

Has anyone explored the possibility of rescuing teammates in doubles with Squall?

 

[PUK]

It seems unreliable to me. FW is better cuz it send them straight up and refresh their recovery move.
Anyway we should go to passion because it's unknown, and strike. And maybe phantom breaker too.
As an exemple, i like how strike can set up nasty edge guard at low percent due to how it works.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I really like Strike for edgeguarding. It semispikes whereas the other Phantoms do not.

 

[Macchiato]

I really like Strike for edgeguarding. It semispikes whereas the other Phantoms do not.

It has more upsides than downside. I think this may be the best.

 

[LRodC]

Strike is my favorite for any rush down characters since it charges the fastest and protects close to Zelda without whiffing. Still seems good for edgeguarding too. The only thing you lose is a long ranged option, but you can pair it up with Din's Flare if that's an issue.

 

[PUK]

Default is a crappy range option anyway.

 

[Zylach]

Default is a crappy range option anyway.

Strike for up-close spacing and no blind spot, breaker for range and potential for a shield break, default for... being a boring default.

 

[Macchiato]

Strike for up-close spacing and no blind spot, breaker for range and potential for a shield break, default for... being a boring default.

I think strike is better overall due to more buffs than both the other options. It charges faster, can spike, does incredible damage, and has no blindspot.

Breaker is really bad. It only breaks shields if it's fully charged and due to the even longer charging time, it's impractical to get one off. Also it's weaker and does less damage. It's outclassed by the default.

Slash is a decent spacing tool and can get the occasional edgeguard kill.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think strike is better overall due to more buffs than both the other options. It charges faster, can spike, does incredible damage, and has no blindspot.

Breaker is really bad. It only breaks shields if it's fully charged and due to the even longer charging time, it's impractical to get one off. Also it's weaker and does less damage. It's outclassed by the default.

Slash is a decent spacing tool and can get the occasional edgeguard kill.

Breaker is good not for it's selling point of shield breaking but rather always going max distance
regardless of charge. A common gripe about Zelda is how easy she is to defeat if you never approach
her, and this gives her a quick long-ranged poke whereas Slash must be charged to go that far.
Yes, it is the weakest phantom in damage, but that's the price for speedy ranged use. And while this
does make this one more vulnerable to reflects, you can turn this around by baiting.
Really, the custom phantoms charge strictly for power, default charges to get range, too.

Slash is definitely the most versatile phantom in its use with variable distance, though an argument
could be made that it's a master of none since it always hits close range weakly while its long-ranged
application is always slow.

Though speaking in terms of tournament play, Strike may very well be the most helpful, particularly
when it comes to combatting the top tiers.

 

[LRodC]

To me, Strike seems best for characters that like to be up close and personal, and Breaker seems best for characters that you want to keep at range. The extra damage for Strike and shield breaking capability of Breaker seems to be just icing on the cake since you won't need to charge these phantoms in a certain amount of time in order for their distance to change. I feel like that is what makes these both better than Slash. Not that Slash is bad when you're stuck with it since it kills the easiest and goes the most distance when fully charged (it's actually slightly more than Breaker), but it's simply trying to do too much in one move and you are forced to charge if you want distance and can't make the attack more powerful closer to you without a whiff.

 

[Macchiato]

I can't think of a match up where I'd rather any of the other Phantoms than strike honestly.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Maaaaybe Breaker for zoners? Even then, when you're being bombarded by projectiles it might be hard to even get a Phantom out

 

[Macchiato]

@ S.F.L.R_9 @ Fernosaur I think our first priority should be figuring out which Din or Phantom is superior over the others.

 

[Fernosaur]

@ S.F.L.R_9 @ Fernosaur I think our first priority should be figuring out which Din or Phantom is superior over the others.

Tbh Strike seems like the obvious superior choice. Maybe keeping Slash for MUs in which recoveries can be gimped like Ike, Megaman, et al. Is Breaker faster or slower than Slash?

The Din's seem mostly a matter of taste, tbh :/. None of them are particularly useful ever.

 

[Macchiato]

Tbh Strike seems like the obvious superior choice. Maybe keeping Slash for MUs in which recoveries can be gimped like Ike, Megaman, et al. Is Breaker faster or slower than Slash?

The Din's seem mostly a matter of taste, tbh :/. None of them are particularly useful ever.

I think Strikes windbox is stronger so it can also gimp.

Atm I find Din's Flare superior

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm wondering if we could use Flare to combat projectile spam from characters like Villager or Megaman since it's so fast

 

[Macchiato]

I'm wondering if we could use Flare to combat projectile spam from characters like Villager or Megaman since it's so fast

It's great against characters with huge hurtboxes

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It's great against characters with huge hurtboxes

I've honestly never used Flare so what's it's purpose? Fire is just lol, Blaze is for traps and pressure, but I can't think of a use for Flare.

 

[Macchiato]

I've honestly never used Flare so what's it's purpose? Fire is just lol, Blaze is for traps and pressure, but I can't think of a use for Flare.

Flare is really fast so it can punish some faraway attacks. It's faster so it can kinda pressure. It can edgeguard some recoveries far away due to its long range. It also ALWAYS does as much damage and KB as maximum distance fire.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

WAIT AS MAXIMUM DISTANCE FIRE? Is that sweetspotted? If so...omf

 

[Macchiato]

WAIT AS MAXIMUM DISTANCE FIRE? Is that sweetspotted? If so...omf

Yes even if the flare is at minimum distance. It's incredibly strong