The Custom Laboratory -Nayru's Rejection

[Fernosaur]

If someone can test the hoo hah at percents it's no longer a true combo which are the higher percents.

Nairo saw it and he says he might test it and stuff. He thinks it might be an alternative to wind.

Kiddo can you get online right now? Or is it too late for you? I'm gonna free up in like 10 minutes so we could test stuff out. Or what about you @ S.F.L.R_9 ?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Kiddo can you get online right now? Or is it too late for you? I'm gonna free up in like 10 minutes so we could test stuff out. Or what about you @ S.F.L.R_9 ?

Yeah I can. So is one of us going to pick Diddy and do the hoo hah and the other will just spam Squall to see if we'll get out?

 

[Macchiato]

Kiddo can you get online right now? Or is it too late for you? I'm gonna free up in like 10 minutes so we could test stuff out. Or what about you @ S.F.L.R_9 ?

No sorry, I'm a little tipsy and dizzy. I can barely stay awake but I can test with yew tmr.

 

[Fernosaur]

Yeah I can. So is one of us going to pick Diddy and do the hoo hah and the other will just spam Squall to see if we'll get out?

Yeah, something like that. Well, the hoo haa, Sheik's strings, Ness. See how it affects Rosalina, etc. Do you have Skype? We could also try using the Wii U's voice chat if you're not shy about that kinda thing.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Yeah, something like that. Well, the hoo haa, Sheik's strings, Ness. See how it affects Rosalina, etc. Do you have Skype? We could also try using the Wii U's voice chat if you're not shy about that kinda thing.

Nah I don't have skype and it's late at night where I live so I don't wanna wake anyone up. Can we just do a private message? Or if you want to test with Macchiato tomorrow instead that works as well

 

[Fernosaur]

Nah I don't have skype and it's late at night where I live so I don't wanna wake anyone up. Can we just do a private message? Or if you want to test with Macchiato tomorrow instead that works as well

Sure, no prob. Well, my computer's far away from my TV so I won't be able to chat much but I'll PM you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Small update, girls.

Squall seems to really mess up with Diddy's aerial strings after a D-throw, and it DEFINITELY destroys Ness's strings. Also his recovery is incredibly easy to gimp with Squall.

However, Sheik's fair strings are impossible to stop with Squall, as are Rosalina's U-air strings. The initial windbox doesn't seem to affect Luma at all, but the reappearing hitbox does put Luma in a helpless state until he touches the ground. As Lavani mentioned, by reappearing close to the ledge when they are hanging, they're popped up and set up for a fair or usmash. There are more interesting things we can test out....

Peach's shield pressure can also be broken and escaped from by using Squall OoS.

 

[Macchiato]

This is really gonna help her meta. Even if we lose the elevator, we still have ways to kill. We have light kicks, downthrow to finger bang, fsmash, and the squall elevator once we master it. Tell me when yew want to test, I can test fpr the whole day @ Fernosaur

Squall can escape diddys fsmash, Usmash, and dash attack. It seems as a possible landing option and has less ending lag. When yew pop your opponent off at the end of squall, it's good for getting uair and Usmash reads.

 

[Fernosaur]

This is really gonna help her meta. Even if we lose the elevator, we still have ways to kill. We have light kicks, downthrow to finger bang, fsmash, and the squall elevator once we master it. Tell me when yew want to test, I can test fpr the whole day @ Fernosaur

Squall can escape diddys fsmash, Usmash, and dash attack. It seems as a possible landing option and has less ending lag. When yew pop your opponent off at the end of squall, it's good for getting uair and Usmash reads.

I dunno and don't think we can fully trust in Squall to be a total game changer, because the start up is still very slow and it's way more telegraphable than Farore's. We have to test it in an actual match to see which characters is better to use it against. It's definitely useless against Rosalina.

Sheik needs more testing because of what D3RK said about Bouncing Fish, but if it can't stop the Fair strings I think regular FW is still a better option to kill her as early as possible and abuse her lackluster KOs while on stage.

Oh btw we can try testing things out later, let me work for a bit and I'll let you know

 

[Macchiato]

I dunno and don't think we can fully trust in Squall to be a total game changer, because the start up is still very slow and it's way more telegraphable than Farore's. We have to test it in an actual match to see which characters is better to use it against. It's definitely useless against Rosalina.

Sheik needs more testing because of what D3RK said about Bouncing Fish, but if it can't stop the Fair strings I think regular FW is still a better option to kill her as early as possible and abuse her lackluster KOs while on stage.

Oh btw we can try testing things out later, let me work for a bit and I'll let you know

I secondary sheik so we can see how it does against sheik. I also know how to use half the cast so we can test for them, but moves like peach Bomber, holt jaymaker are completely stopped by it.

 

[Fernosaur]

Updated the OP to include the more recent information and made it prettier and more organised.

 

[Macchiato]

Yew might want to add that it escapes many multi hitting moves like diddy's DA, Fsmash, Usmash

 

[Fernosaur]

We should try making a video showing all the things Zelda can escape from by testing out different characters.

 

[Macchiato]

We should try making a video showing all the things Zelda can escape from by testing out different characters.

We'll go through the Roster with each character and see if the moves or combos can be avoided

 

[BJN39]

I'm loving the OP, it looks very good. I have access to two 3DSs, so I'll try to test some little quirks I see on the to do list.

Also, I recommend we eventually compile a list(s) of the MUs where Squall could be used better than standard. (And vice versa; and maybe one where both are interchangeable in usefulness too.)

 

[Fernosaur]

This custom is HILARIOUS
Windboxes are too much fun.

We should actually test what can be done with this kind of moves too.

The reappearing hitbox might completely destroy moves that have forward momentum, such as these too and Pika's skull bash, Flare Blitz, Hydro Pump, Green Missile, etc. If we manage to set a trap with Squall against these moves we might be able to get HILARIOUS gimps in actual fights.


Also pushing moves that leave characters helpless, like Din's Fire and Donkey's punch.

 

[Macchiato]

We should actually test what can be done with this kind of moves too.

The reappearing hitbox might completely destroy moves that have forward momentum, such as these too and Pika's skull bash, Flare Blitz, Hydro Pump, Green Missile, etc. If we manage to set a trap with Squall against these moves we might be able to get HILARIOUS gimps in actual fights.


Also pushing moves that leave characters helpless, like Din's Fire and Donkey's punch.

Whenever yew want to test stuff just tell me, we'll just use the mic since I don't have skype

 

[「 Derk 」]

Will add more to this post as I test and play around with Farore's Squall. Mainly testing cancel spots atm.

Unlike the default Farore's Wind, Farore's Squall completely ignores platforms during the teleport. This can open up a lot of different teleport options that are not available when using Farore's Wind due to the forced directional switch.

Spoiler: Farore's Squall ignores platforms

Spoiler: movement options for FD/Omega

Position used on the stage.

The standard ledge cancel. Simply go the max distance and hit the edge of the stage. You can carry the opponent to the edge of the stage with you and pop them up into the air. This also true combos into a Uair as a guaranteed kill option! Credit goes to @ Lavani for finding this combo.

You can cancel Farore's Squall on either side of the stage using the same spot. The only difference is when you want to cancel on the ledge closer to you, it requires a jump. Farore's Squall will carry the momentum of your jump and set you in a perfect spot to cancel on the edge of the stage! However, there needs to be a small pause between when you jump and when you activate squall, otherwise you wont be high enough off the ground to get the correct angle. There are a few different angles to get the cancel. You can either aim for the edge of the stage directly or tilt it slightly towards the stage so it carries you to the edge.

Position used on the stage. 1 step behind center stage.

This will be a useful cancel to remember since most omega stages have some sort of marker for center stage. To get this cancel simply do a short hop then immediately input Farore's Squall and aim for the edge of the stage.

Position used on the stage.

Since Farore's Squall has a longer start up time it seems to carry momentum for longer distances also. To get this cancel simply do a short hop towards center stage and instantly squall back towards the edge of the stage. Farore's Squall should carry you to around center stage before teleporting, putting you in the correct position to cancel it on the edge of the stage.

Spoiler: Movement options for Battlefield

Position used on the stage.

This will be pretty useful and it's very easy to remember the position. Simply tilt towards the stage and it will do all the work for you!

Position used on the stage.

Another cancel spot with an easy to remember location! Simply position yourself under the edge of the platform and teleport the full distance.

Position used on the stage.

Using the same spot as the previous one, we can also warp by dropping under the platforms.

Position used on the stage:

Yet another cancel spot with a stage marker to easily remember the location. To get this cancel simply input a short hop then instantly use Farore's Squall and aim for the edge of the stage. Since this spot is on the center of the stage you can reach either side of Battlefield!

Spoiler: movement options for Smashville

Position used on the stage. Note the characters in the background for markers. Although the background characters change each match, I am pretty sure their positions remain the same.

Will add more stage spots tomorrow, I got sidetracked by testing multi-hit moves that Farore's Squall can escape today.

Having some fun with Farore's Squall! Who said you can't kill at low percents with this move?

 

[Macchiato]

http://youtu.be/7M6pcrXAV0A

Here's it used in a real match kinda

 

[Zylach]

Experimenting with this a little bit revealed a few things:

A) The final "windbox" is actually a hitbox. It doesn't do damage but it will hit an opponent giving them their recovery back if they're already in freefall so hitting with the initial windbox, travelling windbox, or the windbox just outside of the final hitbox will be the only consistent ways of gimping recoveries with it.

B) The popup from the final hitbox of FS2 changes based on the damage the opponent has taken meaning 1) guaranteed followups from ledge cancelling aren't guaranteed above certain percents and 2) this only proves that it's due to a hitbox, not a windbox since pushback from windboxes aren't based on the opponent's damage (correct me if I'm wrong).

C) The distance traveled is so much greater than FW especially when boosted by a 2nd jump that I feel like it's main strength is in going balls deep offstage for kills. I dropped down as far as I could below FD and boosted FS with a 2nd jump and snapped to the ledge halfway through FS' distance. I almost reached the ledge before the teleportation.

D) The ability for it to get us out of combos is where its other strengths are. It can get us out of every jab combo in the game it seems (exceptions are probably long range jabs like Link's). This also goes for Lil' Mac's and CFal's godly jab combos. I was able to stop Megaman's dash attack from even moving forward by using FS as he starts it up. I've found two problems though.

1) It seems somewhat inconsistent because sometimes I end up getting hit by the attack I was supposed to get away from with it in the first place. I'll push the opponent back but still get hit thereby effectively doing nothing. I suspect this is just a problem with the fact that I was mashing up-B to get out so the initiation of FS was inconsistent.
2) Probably not how I'm supposed to use it but when I get out of a combo and teleport behind the opponent, sometimes I'll carry the opponent to where I'll reappear and their continued combo will hit me before reappear. It's rare and also happens with tilts and smash attacks. For example, carrying Bowser while he's charging dsmash is a bad idea. Again, probably not the way FS should be used in 1v1's but I tested it anyway.

E) For people like me who are used to ignoring this custom and only ever using default FW, the timing between the button input and the disappear is ridiculously slower meaning that your momentum will carry you a lot further than you're used to. It's caused me to kill myself quite a few times so it'll take a lot of time to get used to using FS.

F) The FS2 hitbox can kill the opponent up high at around 140% but it's super difficult to hit considering FS1 doesn't combo into FS2, the opponent can see this coming from a mile away considering the startup lag, and it's really hard to aim it at a falling opponent and hit with the hitbox only.

Some questions I have:

A) Can this be practically be combined with Din's Blaze to push people into the explosion since the windbox appears at frame 1?

B) Is FS any more or less punishable than default FW? Since the distance is so much greater, teleporting away from the opponent/down to the stage/onto the stage from offstage/etc. is already a little more effective just because the opponent has to move farther to punish.

C) Can Zelda still be hit upon reappearance just before the windbox/hitbox occurs? Popping an opponent up while they are charging a smash attack, for instance, would be really nice just like hitting an opponent with FW2 while they are charging a smash attack but doing that with FW was really risky because of her vulnerability period just before the hitbox.

 

[Lavani]

B) The popup from the final hitbox of FS2 changes based on the damage the opponent has taken meaning 1) guaranteed followups from ledge cancelling aren't guaranteed above certain percents and 2) this only proves that it's due to a hitbox, not a windbox since pushback from windboxes aren't based on the opponent's damage (correct me if I'm wrong).

Windboxes do have knockback growth just like hitboxes, actually. The obvious distinction is that the end hit of FS causes hitstun+knockback instead of pushing, making it a hitbox instead of a windbox.

That said, it's a 0% hitbox so the knockback increases are minimal.

 

[Zylach]

Windboxes do have knockback growth just like hitboxes, actually. The obvious distinction is that the end hit of FS causes hitstun+knockback instead of pushing, making it a hitbox instead of a windbox.

That said, it's a 0% hitbox so the knockback increases are minimal.

Thanks for the info.

 

[BJN39]

Windboxes do have knockback growth just like hitboxes, actually. The obvious distinction is that the end hit of FS causes hitstun+knockback instead of pushing, making it a hitbox instead of a windbox.

That said, it's a 0% hitbox so the knockback increases are minimal.

It's actually pretty amusing how high Squall's reappear hit's KB stats are though, at 90 Base and 100 Growth.

BuT... 0%, so it KOs at 600%.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Some questions I have:

A) Can this be practically be combined with Din's Blaze to push people into the explosion since the windbox appears at frame 1?

B) Is FS any more or less punishable than default FW? Since the distance is so much greater, teleporting away from the opponent/down to the stage/onto the stage from offstage/etc. is already a little more effective just because the opponent has to move farther to punish.

C) Can Zelda still be hit upon reappearance just before the windbox/hitbox occurs? Popping an opponent up while they are charging a smash attack, for instance, would be really nice just like hitting an opponent with FW2 while they are charging a smash attack but doing that with FW was really risky because of her vulnerability period just before the hitbox.

A) No, or at least we have not found one yet. Both moves are too slow to combo together.

B) Yes, the main use for killing atm is carrying people with you to the edge of the stage while you cancel Squall into a Uair. This is a true combo that kills the entire cast from around 80%-120% depending on weight. If if fails due to them shielding the pull, you get away unpunished. It's far safer than relying on actually teleporting into someone for the kill. You do need to learn the spots to cancel the move to make this effective though. Farore's Squall also ignores platforms during the teleport, this prevents accidental SD's and opens up more teleporting options on stages like battlefield.

C) The only way this happens is if the opponent shields the windbox when you re-appear. Otherwise it will push them away and prevent them from punishing you. This should never happen though since You should be using Squall to punish landings since it almost guarantees the move will carry them into your ledge canceled Uairs.

Also, Zelda is immune to most, if not all, multi-hit attacks while she has Farore's Squall. This move has some amazing defensive options when buffered correctly. I played around with the move for the past couple of days and the only multi-hit moves I have found that Zelda can't escape are attacks that pull in, such as Samus' and Donkey Kong's up specials.

 

[Lavani]

It's actually pretty amusing how high Squall's reappear hit's KB stats are though, at 90 Base and 100 Growth.

BuT... 0%, so it KOs at 600%.

Considering the 0%, it needs those sorts of numbers to have any KB at all lol

I didn't think a 0% hit could even have functioning KBG, but I haven't memorized the knockback formula yet so I'm sure that was a false assumption.

 

[Macchiato]

Squallator Kill Percents

Character|Percents
Jigglypuff|76%+
Game&Watch|80%+
Kirby|83%+
Rosalina|83%+
Pikachu|86%+
Olimar|86%+
Fox|86%+
Meta Knight|89%+
Zero Suit Samus|89%+
Falco|89%+
Little Mac|89%+
Sheik|87%+
Zelda|89%+
Peach|87%+
Marth|95%+
Lucina|95%+
Duck Hunt|96%+
Palutena|89%+
Diddy Kong|97%+
Toon Link|92%+
Ness|93%+
Greninja|91%+
Pac-Man|93%+
Sonic|95%+
Robin|94%+
Pit|96%+
Dark Pit|96%+
Wii Fit Trainer|92%+
Luigi|92%+
Villager|94%+
Mario|97%+
Dr. Mario|97%+
Lucario|99%+
Mega Man|104%+
Shulk|100%+
Yoshi|98%+
Link|102%+
Captain Falcon|104%+
R.O.B|102%+
Wario|103%+
Ike|104%+
Samus|100%+
Ganondorf|106%+
Bowser Jr.|103%+
Charizard|102%+
DeDeDe|118%+
Donkey Kong|113%+
Bowser|107%+

Tested on Final destination with no DI or Rage

Here Ferny

 

[Zylach]

I did some testing against a friend of mine that doesn't have a lot of smash bros experience at all and it seems so easy to read. I didn't get a single squallator because the opponent just has to sit in shield the moment they see you use it. The startup for it is so slow. Are there guaranteed setups for this? I mean, ledge cancelling meant I was still safe but it essentially put me from neutral back to neutral especially because the teleport direction is so telegraphed given there is a light showing where you're going and the opponent should get that you're trying to ledge cancel it after at least one use of it meaning they just continue to sit in shield until it's safe. I could ledge cancel with default FW too and the Farore's elevator is still a thing with default which is more safely setup with FW1 compared to the squallator since that doesn't seem to be setup from anything and is a cakewalk to read and react to. I think FS can be useful against certain MU's simply for the fact that it can get you out of combos like the hoo-hah but for no other reason other than surprising the foe with a ledge cancelled teleport which can be done with default FW as well.

 

[Fernosaur]

I did some testing against a friend of mine that doesn't have a lot of smash bros experience at all and it seems so easy to read. I didn't get a single squallator because the opponent just has to sit in shield the moment they see you use it. The startup for it is so slow. Are there guaranteed setups for this? I mean, ledge cancelling meant I was still safe but it essentially put me from neutral back to neutral especially because the teleport direction is so telegraphed given there is a light showing where you're going and the opponent should get that you're trying to ledge cancel it after at least one use of it meaning they just continue to sit in shield until it's safe. I could ledge cancel with default FW too and the Farore's elevator is still a thing with default which is more safely setup with FW1 compared to the squallator since that doesn't seem to be setup from anything and is a cakewalk to read and react to. I think FS can be useful against certain MU's simply for the fact that it can get you out of combos like the hoo-hah but for no other reason other than surprising the foe with a ledge cancelled teleport which can be done with default FW as well.

The squallator is a gimmick at best. I think it's near impossible to actually pull off due to the massive start up on Squall, save for hard reads (see Cpt Falcon example in OP) or punishing badly aimed Up Bs by characters that don't sweetspot the ledge. It's not a real option to substitute the elevator, but it's something to keep in mind and throw in as a surprise punish.

I dunno if I've said it in this thread, but I've been saying that the use of Squall is almost 100% defensive. It's not a real upgrade to Farore's Wind, it's more like a sidegrade in match-ups in which rushdown characters put too much pressure on Zelda. You're giving up one of your most reliable KO options for a safer OoS reset to neutral game.

 

[Zylach]

So, basically: Use it to reset to neutral OoS in a MU where Farore's Elevator would be too slow OoS? Since FS has a frame 1 windbox, it'll affect the opponent quicker than FW? I suppose, the way I see it right now is that it's only best used to get out of combos. Like you said, use it to get pressure off of Zelda against rushdowns.

FW is also a reliable OoS option that can net a kill as well. Not to mention we have dsmash and Nayru's OoS which actually give us advantage rather than simply resetting to neutral on slower characters (i.e. Not Sheik/Yoshi/Fox/etc). Using it to punish hard reads is understandable though it's very situational and Zelda has so many options for punishing stuff like badly aimed up Bs anyway unless she is really far away at the time which she shouldn't be since the opponent has to be off the stage for a reason.

I guess I just got really excited seeing such a strong defensive option that also had a guaranteed combo when it is actually initiated. It's a good choice for certain MU's especially where FW would be so much riskier than FS. Netting a kill with Farore's Elevator on a Sheik, for example, is beyond risky and every other aspect of it (Just aiming to hit her with FW2, teleporting down to the stage to avoid being juggled, etc.) won't be effective in the MU. So, if I understand right, taking FS in this MU would be more beneficial because resetting to neutral with FS is a better and safer option than any of the uses for FW.

 

[Fernosaur]

So, basically: Use it to reset to neutral OoS in a MU where Farore's Elevator would be too slow OoS? Since FS has a frame 1 windbox, it'll affect the opponent quicker than FW? I suppose, the way I see it right now is that it's only best used to get out of combos. Like you said, use it to get pressure off of Zelda against rushdowns.

FW is also a reliable OoS option that can net a kill as well. Not to mention we have dsmash and Nayru's OoS which actually give us advantage rather than simply resetting to neutral on slower characters (i.e. Not Sheik/Yoshi/Fox/etc). Using it to punish hard reads is understandable though it's very situational and Zelda has so many options for punishing stuff like badly aimed up Bs anyway unless she is really far away at the time which she shouldn't be since the opponent has to be off the stage for a reason.

I guess I just got really excited seeing such a strong defensive option that also had a guaranteed combo when it is actually initiated. It's a good choice for certain MU's especially where FW would be so much riskier than FS. Netting a kill with Farore's Elevator on a Sheik, for example, is beyond risky and every other aspect of it (Just aiming to hit her with FW2, teleporting down to the stage to avoid being juggled, etc.) won't be effective in the MU. So, if I understand right, taking FS in this MU would be more beneficial because resetting to neutral with FS is a better and safer option than any of the uses for FW.

I'm still not sure about Sheik specifically, but yeah, you got the right idea. By using other customs (Din's Flare or Blaze and Phantom Breaker I think), Zelda gains a little more reliable stage control and "camping," thus making Squall's retreat and reset to neutral more useful against rushdown characters, as well as much safer than FW. The interesting thing with Squall in an actual match is that the final windbox is actually surprisingly annoying, and since it's VERY potent it will keep getting in the way of the opponent's momentum. Squall is a very good turtling move because of this, which is something Zelda needed desperately IMO.

Against slower characters (and Rosalina), Wind is the way to go, simply because it's easier to punish them and they can't inflict pressure on Zelda the same as, say, Peach or Sonic.

I say I'm not sure about Sheik because Squall doesn't seem to consistently block her strings of aerials. It can, however, block Bouncing Fish, but Sheik's most reliable set up for BF is from a forward throw, and it's too fast for Zelda to react in time. Due to Sheik's lack of early KO options, however, and to how much rage affects Zelda's elevator, I think in this particular MU it'd be better for Zelda to keep Wind instead of Squall. Sheik's strength is racking damage up after all, and once Zelda's past 120% the elevator WILL kill Sheik as early as 30%.

 

[Zylach]

Good stuff. It's nice to know that we have options against the quicker characters. I'm a huge fan of the Blaze/Breaker combo so I'll keep practicing Squall for uber-turtling when the need arises. Do you prefer Nayru's Love or Rejection with this setup? Since the rushdown characters tend to lack annoying projectiles (excluding Sheik again), would Rejection be a good choice? I haven't played around with it too much.

 

[Fernosaur]

Good stuff. It's nice to know that we have options against the quicker characters. I'm a huge fan of the Blaze/Breaker combo so I'll keep practicing Squall for uber-turtling when the need arises. Do you prefer Nayru's Love or Rejection with this setup? Since the rushdown characters tend to lack annoying projectiles (excluding Sheik again), would Rejection be a good choice? I haven't played around with it too much.

I think Love is universally better than Rejection. Rejection's only advantage over Love is its frame 1 intangibility, which can actually do similar things to Squall's frame 1 windbox. Still, I don't think Rejection is as reliable to get out of combo strings, since it can't stop jab combos. We'd need to test more with Rejection but I'm focusing on Squall right now because I think it's the backbone of this strategy due to the reset of gameplay.

Love in general is a very good special. It punishes rolls, it can semi-break pressure, it can halt approaches and it's a long lasting reflector with some invul frames, so it's kinda hard to top that without making a 100% different move. Rejection has some potential, but due to how much it gives up (not being able to properly stop momentum or punish rolls and approaches), I think Love will be better.

We'll have to wait and see once we bring Rejection to the lab.

 

[Zylach]

That's what I had been thinking. I had seen some people say that Squall/Rejection would just give Zelda a ridiculous amount of control over the battle and was still skeptical for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Fernosaur]

That's what I had been thinking. I had seen some people say that Squall/Rejection would just give Zelda a ridiculous amount of control over the battle and was still skeptical for the reasons you mentioned.

Rejection is an annoyance at best. It's more prominent use is to harass people off-stage simply because Zelda can't be touched and they'll be turned around and put a little farther away.This would actually be useful against things like Super Jump Punch or Dolphin slash, but other than that it's nothing noteworthy. Maybe more experimentation will yield more tangible and useful results.

 

[「 Derk 」]

I will probably play around with Nayru's Rejection tomorrow. Now that Farore's Squall has tons of info and tested uses it wont distract me as much lol. I'm sure there is some kind of use for a frame 1 intangible move that I missed in the short time I played around with it. I still find it funny that projectiles can go directly through a move that is a reflector lol. Maybe we can get something out of that unique property.

 

[Macchiato]

The weird thing about Rejection is that it doesn't reflect half projectiles. It just cancels them out for some reason which is strange.

Guys squall still might be a kill option, If the get hit by the end and land right above a platform. There's a good chance they might air dodge into the platform which lets us uair.

Even if its not a good kill option, We have the dthrow to uair, bthrow, fsmash, usmash, ftilt, light kicks, and dsmash.

 

[Macchiato]

Taking a much closer look at Nayru's Rejection atm and It's not frame 1 intangible. This is why it can't break out of combos like squall can. I can't tell exactly since I am using 1/4 speed in training (not a good indicator of frames) but it seems to be around frame 3-5 intangible. It may be a couple of frames faster than Nayru's Love or it may be the same. She definitely goes intangible before the actual crystal surrounds her but not on frame 1. Once the crystal forms around her she seems to lose her intangible frames. This is also why moves pass through her at the beginning of this move. With perfect timing you can catch a move with the intangible frames that come out before the reflect frames.

Spoiler: pictures

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.

If you read an approach and throw out Rejection you can probably get a free grab combo out of it. You do risk the opponent running in with shield though, but that is an issue Nayru's Love has also. Nayru's Love stops approaches pretty well but it's very hard to combo it into anything barring the occasional Farore's Wind on a missed tech. If this move is going to see any sort of use it would be for its ability to actually combo into something while stuffing approaches.

Ok a couple of interesting things I have picked up for Nayru's Rejection. Believe it or not, this may have some use...
The beginning diamond frames ALWAYS reflect opponents so they face away from Zelda. It's also very difficult for me (controlling p2) to hit Zelda after this using Marth, even when inputting the opposite direction to cancel the cape effect. However, when I switched to Sheik she can easily land f-tilts when inputting the opposite direction to cancel out the cape effect.
Near the end of the diamond hits they transform into wind based hit boxes that push away. This second portion of the move made it extremely difficult for Sheik to hit Zelda at all where as the first part she easily got through just by attacking in the opposite direction.
Using these ending wind box hits also seems to gives Zelda enough time to perfect shield attacks even if the opponent does end up inputting the opposite direction to nullify the cape. This also means you have enough time to follow up off Nayru's Rejection if they input an attack in the wrong direction. Follow up potential is a pretty big positive if this ends up being right. It's kinda difficult to test it myself since I am already using custom controls to control 2 characters for the easy stuff lol.

That's it, someone heeya needs to make a TRUE Zelda character description instead of this one.
EdiT : Actually, if anyone wants to get me a good pic of black dress Zelda in this angle and pose ^ in the desc. picture, (On this stage too, why not. It has a godd background.) I would be very much obliged, as It has good potential as a black dress Zelda w/ salt shaker pic. :D
So this image just shows a few different states of the move, and not the closest intervals you could catch using 1/4 (Hold L) right?
Well, let's see, the reflector starts on real frame 18 (Via the frame speed multiplier altered for the first 12 frames to be x1.5, thus > 18 frames.) so I sort of answered that myself, lol.
The intangibility start trigger must've been altered in designing this move, (If it really does start intangibility on frame 3-5) as if it were a completely raw ONLY frame speed change to the startup, the intangibility would start around frame 7, and it obviously, does NOT.
Also, whatever frame total the intangibility actually lasts (Whether it was the same "till the hit-box" or different from the standard variation.) its duration would be mulitplied by x1.5 as well, so its intangibility should be decently longer than Nayru's Love (As much as 5 frames) Sort of getting a little carried away here I suppose...
Unfortunately, the mastercore doesn't have the data for when her Nayrus' intangible frames start and end, but one way you could try to find them is like, make a video of a move being used in 1/4 speed, and then slow down the video recording as well and possibly get very close estimates by counting the visual frame changes? I mean, an old Brawl video showing Zelda's dsmash arm glitch did something like this and was able to show the arm's apparently 1 frame long glitching very clearly.
quote]

It blocks the K.O punch and rest appearently, also sometimes its safe to approach with this

Here are some important quotes and info for rejection Fern

 

[Fernosaur]

Thanks a lot!! I'll try to update the thread tonight with this additional info. :D

Man, my work rhythm is really messing up with my capacity to update this thread >_>. Hopefully you guys don't mind that much.

 

[BJN39]

Thanks a lot!! I'll try to update the thread tonight with this additional info. :D

Man, my work rhythm is really messing up with my capacity to update this thread >_>. Hopefully you guys don't mind that much.

The activity level here seems pretty decent, don't sweat it. :D

Also, it needs more testing, but I think Nayru's Rejection's intangible frames may actually start LATER than Love's, (but are longer lasting.) which would be ehhh. I'll try looking into it further to be sure.

 

[Fernosaur]

The activity level here seems pretty decent, don't sweat it. :D

Also, it needs more testing, but I think Nayru's Rejection's intangible frames may actually start LATER than Love's, (but are longer lasting.) which would be ehhh. I'll try looking into it further to be sure.

I think we can all agree that right now messing with Blaze is the more interesting priority, so don't sweat it.

I'm trying to get a free moment to update the OP with the new info D3RK discovered on the multiple Dins', but I have to make dinner and get some work done first. I'll try to update later tonight.

 

[Macchiato]

I think we can all agree that right now messing with Blaze is the more interesting priority, so don't sweat it.

I'm trying to get a free moment to update the OP with the new info D3RK discovered on the multiple Dins', but I have to make dinner and get some work done first. I'll try to update later tonight.

Waiting on Rejection