Social The Coney Island Disco Palace, A.K.A Bowser's Social thread!

Synnett

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#41
Tbh I'm not a fan of really janky mechanics in Smash, I'd like to keep it simple. Melee's upB was great because as you say it's not safe, you can get punished for it. Not as dumb as the spacie's shine, and still extremely strong and versatile - more versatile than you think in fact. Also bring back frotresshogging lmao, makes you able to cancel the move on a ledge. And I absolutely despise heavy armor, Crouch cancel is good enough.

I mean, we gotta punish the players for doing bad options, or the meta's gonna stall.
 

Quillion

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#42
I actually appreciate how all the "spinning" moves were reworked into viable approach tools (Spinning Kong, Whirling Fortress, Doctor Tornado to name a few). I would honestly rework the Melee benefits back into Bowser's Up-B (KO potential, fast start-up) and make it as good as possible.
 
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#44
Include Fire Shot as Neutral B for a one-button press, and holding down the button activates Fire Breath
Change Bowser's default Side B to Dash Slam or Dash Slash, either one is better than Flying Slam imo
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#45
I'll just make a final note that Whirling Fortress's animation suggests that it's designed to deal multiple hits. Sliding Fortress could've operated like Brawl Bowser's Whirling Fortress, but its offensive use was made inferior, despite covering much more horizontal distance than the other Whirling Fortress variants. If the damage output was better, then perhaps Sliding Fortress could've had more viability.

Basically, the story would've gone as follows for Bowser's custom special moves...
  • Whirling Fortress: Deals multiple hits on opponents. The most balanced move in terms of recovery usage.
  • Flying Fortress: Increased vertical height, but covers less horizontal distance, and deals minor damage that lacks KO potential.
  • Sliding Fortress: Deals a single strong hit (like with Brawl's Whirling Fortress) and covers more horizontal distance, but it doesn't ascend as high as Whirling Fortress.
 

FunAtParties

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#46
Melee's Whirling Fortress is still not safe with it only hitting two times though. The looping hits are a blessing to have for an attack that lasts up to 84 frames, but like I said earlier, there is room for improvement. I'll mention some ways to improve Whirling Fortress further, starting with the script data...
Code:
Body_Collision(State=0x2)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=6)
Bit_Variable_Set(Variable=0x21000011)
Body_Collision(State=0x0)
Set_Armor(State=0x3, Threshold=5)
Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2, Angle=0xB4, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=9, X=0, Y=9, Z=-5, Effect=0x0, Trip=0, Hitlag=1, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x2, SFXType=0x8, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xD, X2=0, Y2=9, Z2=5)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=7)
unk_B89F681C(unknown=0x0, unknown=0x1)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=8)
unk_B89F681C(unknown=0x0, unknown=0x1)
Remove_All_Hitboxes()
Set_Loop(Iterations=8)
{
    Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1, Angle=0xB4, KBG=0x64, WBKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=9, X=0, Y=9, Z=-5, Effect=0x2, Trip=0, Hitlag=1, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x1, SFXLevel=0x1, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xD, X2=0, Y2=9, Z2=5)
    Synchronous_Timer(Frames=4)
    Remove_All_Hitboxes()
    Goto(Unknown=-29)
}
Extended_Hitbox(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=5, Angle=0x46, KBG=0x48, WBKB=0x0, BKB=0x78, Size=9, X=0, Y=9, Z=-5, Effect=0x2, Trip=0, Hitlag=1, SDI=1, Clang=0x1, Rebound=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x5, SFXLevel=0x2, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x1, Type=0xD, X2=0, Y2=9, Z2=5)
Synchronous_Timer(Frames=4)
Remove_All_Hitboxes()
unk_B89F681C(unknown=0x1, unknown=0x1)
Bit_Variable_Set(Variable=0x2100000D)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=51)
Bit_Variable_Clear(Variable=0x21000011)
Set_Armor(State=0x0, Threshold=0)
Script_End()
As for the details...
  • Bowser receives a brief intangibility period to start the attack.
  • Beginning on frame 6, Bowser receives damage-based heavy armor, with a damage threshold of 5. The hitbox that activates on that frames deals 2% damage, and covers Bowser's body.
  • Frame 8 starts the looping hitbox, which deals 1% damage, and rehits every 4 frames. The looping hitbox hits up to 8 times.
  • The final hit begins on frame 40, dealing 5% damage, and offers high base knockback that gets fighters off of Bowser's face. The knockback growth is also rather decent, giving the attack some KO potential.
  • The heavy armor is turned off on frame 51.
  • The whole attack would deal up to 10 hits, adding up to 15% damage total.
  • As an additional improvement, Bowser won't rebound if the hitboxes clang, enabling him to get past weaker hitboxes (if they don't deal more than 5% damage), and still trap his target.
  • Each hit also offers a small shield damage bonus, putting extra shield pressure on those who try to block the hits.
  • If I were to guess, this adjustment would enable Whirling Fortress to KO Mario after his current damage goes over 150%, assuming that all 10 hits were to connect.
Now, Brawl Bowser's Whirling Fortress could KO Mario at 131% damage with the first hit while at Final Destination, but it's riskier knowing that if it gets blocked, Bowser will get punished real hard. While the Whirling Fortress changes above won't enable Bowser to make KOs as quickly as with Brawl Bowser's Whirling Fortress, the looping hits make it less risky to use.

On a side note, the Whirling Fortress adjustment above is based on my changes to Giga Bowser's Whirling Fortress, but the damage output is weaker, considering that Bowser is supposed to be less powerful than his mutated colossal counterpart.
Alright you sold me on the looping hitboxes.
 

Synnett

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#47
Mario & Sonic Guy Mario & Sonic Guy I have one complaint about your suggestion, it's that it makes whirling fortress a heavily scripted move, designed for one specific situation. It's those kind of things that kept me off Sm4sh. But hey, we'll see what the team comes up with :083:

I think a move that you can get away with in all situations is a bad move; shouldn't be in that game.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#48
Synnett Synnett : The sad part of this story is that Bowser pretty much needed all the help he could get when transitioning over to Smash 3DS / Wii U. Melee Bowser is arguably the worst fighter in Melee, while Brawl Bowser didn't fare much better.
 

FunAtParties

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#49
Synnett Synnett : The sad part of this story is that Bowser pretty much needed all the help he could get when transitioning over to Smash 3DS / Wii U. Melee Bowser is arguably the worst fighter in Melee, while Brawl Bowser didn't fare much better.
Yeah, but it could done in other ways though.
 

-Kagato-

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#53
Based on the footage of Bowser I've seen on the treehouse, Bowser definitely got some changes. Things I have noticed:

-Down-smash is 100% changed, as they even announced it themselves. Instead of spinning in his shell, he does a claw swipe on both sides of himself in an alternating attack motion (like most d-smashes, such as Ike's). When it landed on Ness, he was sent flying off the side. However, the stage was Suzaku Castle and they were already close to the edge, so trajectory was hard to tell right away. Could be very useful, but we need to see more of it.

-Flying Slam is changed slightly. The initial grab looks the same, but on the way down, Bowser and his opponent spin like a top. Bowserciding appears to be possible again as the opponent didn't attempt to recover, but the jury's still out on who died first as it was a time match.

-Whirling Fortress looks different in the air with the shell being fully on it's side, but otherwise it looks like it has the same properties as before. Still no footage of it being used on the ground.

-Forward-Tilt looks different, but performs the same way. Looks more like a hard back-hand with the elbow bent rather than the arm being straight. Unknown if the range took a hit as a result.

That's about all the obvious differences I could spot. I have my theories about things like attack frames and hitbox sizes, but they're just theories.

Oh, and I can confirm Bowser once again doesn't have his traditional voice and is still just grunting and roaring.
 
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_Rated D.R.K_

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#54
Hey Bowsers, it's been a while. Just wanted come on here and say what's up to you all. I don't know how to feel about Smash Ultimate's Bowser. However, I can't wait to acquire the full game and lab him up. Salute to you all.

Also, much thanks to Kagato for the lab work. Still haven't received any information on grounded Fortress. Profound Sadness.
 
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S_B

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#56
Hey all.

So if you slow this clip down, you can see what I believe is Bowser tough guying through villager's slingshot pellet during his fsmash. He takes damage and everything.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SpinelessStrangeCatUnSane

Bowser flashes when this happens. It's worth noting that he's at 95% and TG is still in effect. Not sure how it was in 4 at that percentage...

Ganon takes damage during super armor in his intro video and he doesn't flash, leading me to believe this is unique to tough guy.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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#57
Also keep in mind that the damage in that footage is the same as Smash 4 damage (mostly). A 1v1 modifier increases the damage we are used to by 20%.

We have no clue how armor works in this game, if Tough Guy has the same thresholds, or if our FSmash in-fact has super armor. If things work similarly to how they do now, expect 1v1 to reduce the effectiveness of our passive greatly.

**Twitter**

https://twitter.com/shadwofchaos725/status/1006928321064722439

Crying right now because Sakurai has been working tirelessly to dedicate Ultimate to his late friend and mentor, Mr. Iwata. His JP twitter asks if it's okay for him to cry a little now. I always thought it was uncharacteristic of Sakurai to shake hands with the smashers at E3, and to be so focused on the community's reaction and capability. When he said he was taking the midnight flight, it was both a moment of awe and discomfort. It's good to know why, but I'll never be able to watch that moment again without feeling for him.
 
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S_B

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#58
Right on, and I kinda want to go through that whole match in slow motion to see if I can see any other instances of TG in action (though someone will likely beat me to it).

I'm guessing it's not SA because Ganondorf doesn't do that same flash in his video where he's SAing through Sheik's attacks while charging his punch:

But holy hell, I would love to have SA on Fsmash, or at the very least on bomb: the move is so damn slow that I've always felt Bowser should 100% be able to get to the stage with it, no matter what is in his way.
 

-Kagato-

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#59
Thanks for making this social thread Tord the Red Leader Tord the Red Leader . I've stickied and linked this thread in the Q&A thread.

I also see some familiar faces. What's up, JayDeth JayDeth Gimpyfish62 Gimpyfish62 -Kagato- -Kagato- ? It's good to see these names again.
Glad to be back. A huge game like this gives me a lot to be excited about, but even with everyone returning and the addition of Ridley, Bowser's still my main man.

I'll miss the rest of the Treehouse presentation, but I'll comb over the matches when I return from work and if I see something no one has spotted, I'll bring it up. I'm looking forward to seeing the properties of Bowser's attacks some more, though it would be best to see him in more 1v1s. The only thing I saw that worked as expected in a FFA setting was Bowser Bomb breaking shields again. I can only assume this'll be the same in 1v1 though.
 
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S_B

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#61
Okay wait a sec...

https://youtu.be/8O-ZUXGcuWU

Right around 7:39:30, it looks at though Link flashes when taking a hit from villager's slingshot as well, meaning it's not the indicator for tough guy.

So until we see if Bowser can tough guy this at 95%, there's still a chance that fsmash does indeed have SA on it...

Edit: right around 30:45, Bowser takes a slingshot hit at 102.8% while in the air and flinches:

https://youtu.be/LNSvXjUCoA8

Edit2: he takes several more later at >30% and still flinches.

People...I think fsmash may indeed have SA frames on it. 0_0
 
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S_B

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#63
Well, in Sm4sh his legs were intangible. That could be it.
The shot hit him and did 3% damage while he was fsmashing, no flinch.

Had he not taken damage I'd say it was a clank, but he did without flinching at 95% to a projectile that does make him flinch at >30%.

Only difference is that it hit him in the air later, so maybe tough guy is grounded only this time?
 

S_B

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#64
Someone sanity check me here, but at 14:23, Pikachu Nairs Bowser as he's beginning down+B in the air AND HE DOESN'T FRIGGIN FLINCH!?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHObjLUQ9gQ

EDIT: I think I'm wrong, as Bowser didn't take any damage from it, but it DOES look like the startup of aerial down+B has a hitbox now as Pika takes damage before Bowser starts to descend.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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#65
Try not to double post. It's a social thread so it's not a big deal, but you should still edit your posts instead of double posting to keep clutter to a minimum.
 

JayDeth

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#66
The shot hit him and did 3% damage while he was fsmashing, no flinch.

Had he not taken damage I'd say it was a clank, but he did without flinching at 95% to a projectile that does make him flinch at >30%.

Only difference is that it hit him in the air later, so maybe tough guy is grounded only this time?
I haven't looked at the footage myself yet, but it's possible (I think, I'm not a frame data doctor) he only took damage from a weak hotbox that didn't have knock back that extended out from the projectile and the rest of it didn't affect his untouchable feets.

Also, what up, UL, Kagato. Might we see the return of Gimpyfish? :0 To the game I mean, clearly he's already here.

EDIT: Also also, I call first dibs on being a mod for this board. I assume that's how that works.
 
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S_B

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#67
Try not to double post. It's a social thread so it's not a big deal, but you should still edit your posts instead of double posting to keep clutter to a minimum.
Sorry, got excited. ;)

JayDeth JayDeth

The projectile passed through him and damaged him while he was doing it, which I found strange.

Unless the mechanics of SSBU have shifted a great deal, I'd expect the projectile to be either destroyed in a clank or at the least Bowser hitting it should've negated its hitbox so it didn't damage him.

Again, this is assuming the underlying mechanics are similar enough to SSB4, which could be completely wrong.
 

S_B

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#70
I'm equal parts psyched and pissed about KKRool.

Psyched because he looks fun as all hell.

Pissed because he has not one but TWO projectiles, super armor, and a goddamn COUNTER, while Bowser is stuck with the crappiest "projectile" in the game and not even one single frame of SA in his entire moveset.

Seriously, why not tap B to fire a slow moving fireball like Bowser did in his first appearance ever?
 

JayDeth

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#71
Not going to lie, I barely played the DKC games... and I might main KKR.

Other than that, the other fighter I'm excited to try out is Inkling. Mark my words, they're either going to be really really good or really really bad.
 

_Rated D.R.K_

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#72
It really hurts looking at the love KRool got, then look over at your favorite snapping turtle and all he is "faster." Just the way he moves reminds me of the old Bowser. HE EVEN HAS A BACKBREAKER!
 

S_B

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#73
It really hurts looking at the love KRool got, then look over at your favorite snapping turtle and all he is "faster." Just the way he moves reminds me of the old Bowser. HE EVEN HAS A BACKBREAKER!
And DK is fast AF and has SA on two moves. Bowser? ZERO (and I'd trade shellguard for SA in a HEARTBEAT...).
 

S_B

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#75
Likewise. Bowser should be the Balrog of this game man. HE JUST DOESN'T CARE AND JUST BURST THROUGH PEOPLE'S DEFENSES. C'MON SAKURAI.
All I truly want for Bowser is SA on the descent of his down+B (and maybe the ability to cancel Dair by jumping after the same distance Bayo can but that's a separate issue).

I want SA for that move because it's the only truly safe option Bowser has to return to stage via bomb to ledge, and guess what? So long as it can be interrupted by projectiles and disjoints, it's not safe against quite a few characters (all three Links and most sword users, for example).

If it had SA, the best they could hope to do is grab you as you bomb past the ledge, which is a great deal harder than using something like Cloud's Uair to juggle you.
 
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JarBear

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#76
Granted I did not play too much Bowser in Smash4, but what I do recall is I am surprised he does not have much armor for such a heavy weight character. I think back to Project M that helped bower out which included some more super armor. It seems a mixture with that and some other tweaks it can help improve on Bowser.

At least Bowser has improved since his Melee days.

Random, but a fun Alt. or Echo of Bowser would be Dry Bowser that has blue flames. Granted, super low this would happen but would be a neat addition down the road via DLC.
 

meleebrawler

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#77
Granted I did not play too much Bowser in Smash4, but what I do recall is I am surprised he does not have much armor for such a heavy weight character. I think back to Project M that helped bower out which included some more super armor. It seems a mixture with that and some other tweaks it can help improve on Bowser.

At least Bowser has improved since his Melee days.

Random, but a fun Alt. or Echo of Bowser would be Dry Bowser that has blue flames. Granted, super low this would happen but would be a neat addition down the road via DLC.
I mean, back in the Brawl days where armour started showing up on things other than Yoshi's double jump it was odd, but these days Bowser is probably the third fastest superheavy behind Ridley and DK, and has persistent light armour that makes outboxing him in close range more difficult for weaker, faster characters. More armour than that is probably tricky to balance with that kind of speed, as opposed to the relatively sluggish-looking K. Rool.
 

S_B

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#78
I mean, back in the Brawl days where armour started showing up on things other than Yoshi's double jump it was odd, but these days Bowser is probably the third fastest superheavy behind Ridley and DK, and has persistent light armour that makes outboxing him in close range more difficult for weaker, faster characters. More armour than that is probably tricky to balance with that kind of speed, as opposed to the relatively sluggish-looking K. Rool.
That's why the only move I want SA on is down + b.

If nothing else, it would ensure Bowser makes it back to the ledge through whatever juggling the opponent can do.
 

meleebrawler

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#79
That's why the only move I want SA on is down + b.

If nothing else, it would ensure Bowser makes it back to the ledge through whatever juggling the opponent can do.
After smashing his rear into hazardous substances numerous times, I'm pretty sure any potential armour it may have had is gone. Why not dair? At least that uses the strong part of his body to attack and is much quicker to contest too. Or it could just be shell-invincible from below like a reverse usmash.

There are very few moves in Smash that have armour during the active frames of an attack, only windup. K. Rool's dash attack is one of the only exceptions due to using a literally armoured part of his body to charge forward, armour that is probably stronger than whatever Bowser has on his butt.
 

S_B

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#80
After smashing his rear into hazardous substances numerous times, I'm pretty sure any potential armour it may have had is gone. Why not dair? At least that uses the strong part of his body to attack and is much quicker to contest too. Or it could just be shell-invincible from below like a reverse usmash.

There are very few moves in Smash that have armour during the active frames of an attack, only windup. K. Rool's dash attack is one of the only exceptions due to using a literally armoured part of his body to charge forward, armour that is probably stronger than whatever Bowser has on his butt.
Down + b is more telegraphed and therefore more fair to put SA on, I feel. It's probably his slowest move at this point, and is generally a bad idea to use at any time except trying to recover to the ledge or going for a surprise shield break.

I'd LOVE SA on Dair, but it just doesn't have as many practical applications.

Also, we'd lose the ability to trade Dair with rising recoveries and spike them.
 
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