The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Inferno3044]

lol sooo how outdated are these MUs ratios

Over 6 months old. I actually looked at these now and think over half of them are wrong (for better and worse). I'll give my opinion the ratios if someone asks.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

well I dont think any of us would want to make a new MU thread considering not many people still use mario competitively, and the mario boards are pretty dead at times lol so i guess thats basically our best option is to just randomly ask lol

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I guess we can just update the MUs like how the wing cap got updated, just edit the changes in blue

 

[UberMario]

Ike is actually really good on wifi. Until you projectile camp him, and then he immediately becomes useless.

But if you don't have a projectile, he's STUPIDLY hard to deal with since his F-air is basically the best wifi poke in the game.

The only times I've had trouble with an Ike were offline, though like you said wifi projectile camping may have to do with that.

 

[Inferno3044]

I honestly don't want to rediscuss MUs. Most of it ends up being theorycraft and both sides trying to make it sound as good as it can for their side instead of trying to get a true ratio.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let me state my new matchup opinions:

Falco is 60/40 Falco
Wario is 55/45 Wario
DK is 55/45 Mario
Charizard is 6/4 Mario
Bowser is 6/4 Mario
Yoshi is 65/35 Mario

Falco is a matchup that will make you want to tear out your hair if he's playing to win, which I mean never approaches unnecessarily and runs away from you using lasers and SideB and tilts with superior range. For the most part, he does a lot of things Mario does, but defensively does a LOT better. And his chaingrab is kinda lame. You can try to even the score with some low percent combos, stronger KO moves, and possibly some gimps, but you're ultimately going to have to trick him a lot more than he needs to trick you in order to get the lead in this matchup. KOing him through shenanigans will not be easy when he not just is camping you, but has a 20/22 spotdodge. Do autoJabs or N-air if he spams that a lot.

Vs Wario could be closer, and on a basis of raw hitboxes, Mario has the tools to wall Wario fairly well. Up close it's usually Mario's advantage due to his faster tilts and Jabs, but whiffing an aerial or U-tilt is punishable. I suggest learning to SDI Wario's D-air and N-air, which he will be using to punish you. Overall though you shouldn't have much trouble getting Wario to KO percents, the main trouble is actually killing him, where you have to take a risk usually. U-smashing him at around 130 is usually the most reliable way to kill him. If he recovers low however, he's VERY easy to gimp with a well-placed N-air.

Mario can camp DK fairly well, and a combination of either hitting DK with fireballs, outranging a whiff with F-smash, or even ducking under his B-air makes him quite approachable. And when Mario gets in, the situation by far is in his favor with fast Jabs, a strong throw game, a D-air that pressures very well, etc. For kills you have a lot of options, either gimping, punishing a whiff or edge getup with F-smash, or juggling him with a charged U-smash. Provided you know the KO percents in this matchup and can avoid getting baited by his airdodge and into his smashes, you will win this one through consistency.

Charizard is like Bowser with a better shieldgrab, worse grab reward, and generally speaking inferior out of shield options but a somewhat better recovery. Most of the stuff you have on him is more consistent and he can get punished very hard for a mistake if you know what to look for while he doesn't have too many really safe ways to actually kill you. As for Bowser, the matchup overall shouldn't be too much trouble as long as you know how to edgeguard and juggle him and kill him at KO percents.

Mario vs Yoshi is too easy. Yoshi has to approach, and Mario walls him very well for good damage and should he let Mario get close, Mario has more options, and can even shut down Yoshi's spotdodge effectively with his AutoJab, which Yoshi doesn't have very good answers to up close. On top of that, Mario outdoes Yoshi in virtually every way when it comes to KO moves. All three of Mario's Smashes are superior to Yoshi's in terms of speed, safety, and power. Yoshi's best way of killing Mario is basically through gimping, which isn't very easy for Yoshi who telegraphs his edgeguarding pretty heavily. Generally speaking if you opt to turn this into a war of attrition, you don't have to work very hard and can generally afford to make more mistakes since usually Yoshi shouldn't be able to punish most of your mistakes very hard.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is 65/35 Mario

LOL

Mario vs Yoshi is too easy.

Let's see here...

Yoshi has to approach

LOL. You clearly have not played a good Yoshi. What are you forcing me to approach with, fireballs? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.

and Mario walls him very well for good damage

Yeah, all those things that Usmash beats make an amazing wall.

and should he let Mario get close, Mario has more options, and can even shut down Yoshi's spotdodge effectively with his AutoJab, which Yoshi doesn't have very good answers to up close.

That was funny.

On top of that, Mario outdoes Yoshi in virtually every way when it comes to KO moves. All three of Mario's Smashes are superior to Yoshi's in terms of speed, safety, and power.

Yup, all those 180% stocks against Mario really show that he kills Yoshi easily. Those smashes are just too good.

Yoshi's best way of killing Mario is basically through gimping, which isn't very easy for Yoshi who telegraphs his edgeguarding pretty heavily.

No.

Generally speaking if you opt to turn this into a war of attrition, you don't have to work very hard and can generally afford to make more mistakes since usually Yoshi shouldn't be able to punish most of your mistakes very hard.

Never let Yoshi get a lead. That's a mistake that you'll be punished very hard for.

 

[Inferno3044]

Let me state my new matchup opinions:

Falco is 60/40 Falco
Wario is 55/45 Wario
DK is 55/45 Mario
Charizard is 6/4 Mario
Bowser is 6/4 Mario
Yoshi is 65/35 Mario

Falco is a matchup that will make you want to tear out your hair if he's playing to win, which I mean never approaches unnecessarily and runs away from you using lasers and SideB and tilts with superior range. For the most part, he does a lot of things Mario does, but defensively does a LOT better. And his chaingrab is kinda lame. You can try to even the score with some low percent combos, stronger KO moves, and possibly some gimps, but you're ultimately going to have to trick him a lot more than he needs to trick you in order to get the lead in this matchup. KOing him through shenanigans will not be easy when he not just is camping you, but has a 20/22 spotdodge. Do autoJabs or N-air if he spams that a lot.

Vs Wario could be closer, and on a basis of raw hitboxes, Mario has the tools to wall Wario fairly well. Up close it's usually Mario's advantage due to his faster tilts and Jabs, but whiffing an aerial or U-tilt is punishable. I suggest learning to SDI Wario's D-air and N-air, which he will be using to punish you. Overall though you shouldn't have much trouble getting Wario to KO percents, the main trouble is actually killing him, where you have to take a risk usually. U-smashing him at around 130 is usually the most reliable way to kill him. If he recovers low however, he's VERY easy to gimp with a well-placed N-air.

Mario can camp DK fairly well, and a combination of either hitting DK with fireballs, outranging a whiff with F-smash, or even ducking under his B-air makes him quite approachable. And when Mario gets in, the situation by far is in his favor with fast Jabs, a strong throw game, a D-air that pressures very well, etc. For kills you have a lot of options, either gimping, punishing a whiff or edge getup with F-smash, or juggling him with a charged U-smash. Provided you know the KO percents in this matchup and can avoid getting baited by his airdodge and into his smashes, you will win this one through consistency.

Charizard is like Bowser with a better shieldgrab, worse grab reward, and generally speaking inferior out of shield options but a somewhat better recovery. Most of the stuff you have on him is more consistent and he can get punished very hard for a mistake if you know what to look for while he doesn't have too many really safe ways to actually kill you. As for Bowser, the matchup overall shouldn't be too much trouble as long as you know how to edgeguard and juggle him and kill him at KO percents.

Mario vs Yoshi is too easy. Yoshi has to approach, and Mario walls him very well for good damage and should he let Mario get close, Mario has more options, and can even shut down Yoshi's spotdodge effectively with his AutoJab, which Yoshi doesn't have very good answers to up close. On top of that, Mario outdoes Yoshi in virtually every way when it comes to KO moves. All three of Mario's Smashes are superior to Yoshi's in terms of speed, safety, and power. Yoshi's best way of killing Mario is basically through gimping, which isn't very easy for Yoshi who telegraphs his edgeguarding pretty heavily. Generally speaking if you opt to turn this into a war of attrition, you don't have to work very hard and can generally afford to make more mistakes since usually Yoshi shouldn't be able to punish most of your mistakes very hard.

I guess I can agree with Falco. Campy Falco's are annoying as ****.

You can't just say "on the basis of raw hit boxes" especially talking about Wario. He uses his air game combined with his amazing aerial mobility to get in and has one of the best air games in the game and won't be walled by Mario. Also Wario's strong points are pokes not a close up game. His boxing game is pretty bad. Also, I don't think landing a Usmash at 130 will kill him. He's pretty heavy. Also a Wario will never recover low. I think this one is correct at 60:40 Wario

I agree with DK, but honestly gimping is your only chance at a low percent kill which with DK's bad recovery isn't hard to pull off. Other than that, DK shouldn't die until a fairly high percent. I've seen good DK's, mostly Cable and Will, and they don't die at low percents by a smash.

I think Charizard does better than Bowser. He has nice range, decent approaches, good kill power, a much better recovery than Bowser, and a very good grab game. He can edgeguard/rack damage with fair and has a grab that can reliably kill. I think 55:45 Mario.

Bowser on the other hand I agree. Easy to rack damage, easy to edgeguard/gimp and can outcamp him.

I can tell right now you don't know about Yoshi. One of my good friends in the smash community mains Yoshi so I know this MU. First of all Yoshi doesn't have to approach you. He can change the trajectory and angle of his eggs to mess up your timing with the cape or can just make them hit the ground near you. Before you say "we can just fireball camp him" Yoshi can just jab the fireballs. Problem solved for Yoshi. As you approach Yoshi dodge your attack and pivot grab. Next spotdodging is normally used as a reaction to seeing a move. It's not like you can predict every spot dodge. Usmash can juggle Mario very well, can rack damage, or kill if fresh. Yoshi doesn't need to rely on gimping. I rarely get gimped. A very common but good setup for Yoshi to kill is throwing an egg and him using Uair to punish the reaction. His Uair is a reliable kill As Delta said, don't give a Yoshi the lead because he will camp the **** out of you. Especially against Delta. He camps you even when he's losing (see Delta vs. Kadaj at Apex).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes Mario forces Yoshi to approach. He has better camping. Fireballs >>> Eggs by far.

K if you're going to U-smash Mario, he's gonna punish you if he blocks it. And considering that Mario doesn't have to approach in this matchup, that's gonna be happening a lot if you think you can be cheeky with that.

Oh and chances are the Mario players you play against suck. Most of them unlike me don't know KO percents. Mario however kills Yoshi earlier with all three Smashes than Yoshi kills Mario. Mario's D-smash and U-smash are basically better versions of Yoshi's and he can hit confirm into D-smash via Jab canceling. Mario's F-smash is a better version of Yoshi's that not only kills earlier and does more damage, it has MORE RANGE and a better disjoint.

Mario walls Yoshi better than the other way around and does better with kill moves. Even if Yoshi has the lead, he isn't safe as long as Mario knows KO percents. Mario is much safer and more consistent at getting the KO in this matchup, and Yoshi is EXTREMELY hard pressed to take back the lead if Mario gets it due to how bad his KO moves are in general.

Flame's got a number of Mario vs Yoshi matches btw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA5vO73US9E&feature=search&translated=1

 

[Delta-cod]

Yes Mario forces Yoshi to approach. He has better camping. Fireballs >>> Eggs by far.

Yup, that projectile that's beat by every move I have is much better than mine.

K if you're going to U-smash Mario, he's gonna punish you if he blocks it. And considering that Mario doesn't have to approach in this matchup, that's gonna be happening a lot if you think you can be cheeky with that.

Yup, because you can block while throwing fireballs. Unless you're throwing them from the ground. In which case, I laugh at you.

And then I can actually GASP! Mix up and grab? Maybe? Doesn't Yoshi have a strong grab game? I remember something like that...

Oh and chances are the Mario players you play against suck. Most of them unlike me don't know KO percents. Mario however kills Yoshi earlier with all three Smashes than Yoshi kills Mario. Mario's D-smash and U-smash are basically better versions of Yoshi's and he can hit confirm into D-smash via Jab canceling. Mario's F-smash is a better version of Yoshi's that not only kills earlier and does more damage, it has MORE RANGE and a better disjoint.

Yeah, all that power is great when you're hitting the air. Those poor oxygen molecules are losing all their stocks.

Mario walls Yoshi better than the other way around and does better with kill moves. Even if Yoshi has the lead, he isn't safe as long as Mario knows KO percents. Mario is much safer and more consistent at getting the KO in this matchup, and Yoshi is EXTREMELY hard pressed to take back the lead if Mario gets it due to how bad his KO moves are in general.

>Implying Yoshi can't easily beat the wall
>Implying Yoshi will try to wall Mario.
>Implying Yoshi can't dodge Mario's KO moves. Stale Bair is quite frightening.
>Implying Yoshi can't **** Mario on the ledge for easy damage and KOs.

Flame's got a number of Mario vs Yoshi matches btw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA5vO73US9E&feature=search&translated=1

Spoiler

 

[Inferno3044]

LMAO! Delta is amazing. <3

Spoiler

no homo

@ A2 saying that the Mario's he fights sucks - the Mario he faces most often is me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yup, that projectile that's beat by every move I have is much better than mine.

And you can't camp if you're trying to deflect fireballs. And to make things more complicated, he can throw fireballs at multiple trajectories. Blocking them is usually not wise for Yoshi. And if you're trying to egg toss, the situation is in Mario's favor at midrange.

Yup, because you can block while throwing fireballs. Unless you're throwing them from the ground. In which case, I laugh at you.

You would be surprised how much Mario mains ignore throwing fireballs on the ground, which is pretty hard to punish.

And then I can actually GASP! Mix up and grab? Maybe? Doesn't Yoshi have a strong grab game? I remember something like that...

None of Yoshi's throws are really a serious threat. Chip damage alright? While Mario's throws aren't that powerful vs Yoshi either, he does have a high percent KO option in B-throw though. And you aren't grabbing Mario easily if he just camps.

Yeah, all that power is great when you're hitting the air. Those poor oxygen molecules are losing all their stocks.

Which you should remember, Mario anti-airs Yoshi very well in this matchup.

>Implying Yoshi can't easily beat the wall
>Implying Yoshi will try to wall Mario.
>Implying Yoshi can't dodge Mario's KO moves. Stale Bair is quite frightening.
>Implying Yoshi can't **** Mario on the ledge for easy damage and KOs.

Yoshi can't punish Mario's fireball camping very easily, and in most exchanges, Mario wins minus the obvious situations where Yoshi attempts to be cheeky with his really unsafe Up-smash.

Thought Yoshi did well anti-airing Mario? He does great at that as well with an overall safer and more powerful Up-smash. And think Yoshi baits well with F-smash? Mario does that better with greater reward. And I covered D-smash a while ago, which is very good in this matchup as well and will be landed any time Mario can read Yoshi.

Spoiler

And then I will point out Yoshi benefits from wifi more than Mario, where timing fireballs between eggs is harder, as well as precisely anti-airing approaches, two things which give Mario the advantage in this matchup.

And Inferno I'm pretty sure I know the matchup better than you. Besides, Pierce also knows this matchup as well and has contributed to it a long time ago.

 

[Delta-cod]

And you can't camp if you're trying to deflect fireballs. And to make things more complicated, he can throw fireballs at multiple trajectories. Blocking them is usually not wise for Yoshi. And if you're trying to egg toss, the situation is in Mario's favor at midrange.

Ah, I see. You're one of those people that have that problem. The one where you think camping MUST be done by using projectiles.

Protip: I'm camping you by not approaching.

Also, Yoshi's jab pretty much beats every fireball angle. And the rare angles that the jab doesn't beat are so awkward to create and they put Mario in a dangerous spot (Read: Usmash position)

You would be surprised how much Mario mains ignore throwing fireballs on the ground, which is pretty hard to punish.

You would be surprised how non existent the idea of me running into the **** is.

None of Yoshi's throws are really a serious threat. Chip damage alright? While Mario's throws aren't that powerful vs Yoshi either, he does have a high percent KO option in B-throw though. And you aren't grabbing Mario easily if he just camps.

You're right, putting Mario in the air, where Yoshi anti-airs him beautifully isn't a threat. Or offstage, where Mario gets pressured very hard. That ledge is dangerous, yo.

I also like how you have yet to respond to that point. It's like you're avoiding it, or something.

Which you should remember, Mario anti-airs Yoshi very well in this matchup.

Hah, approaching Mario from the air.

Yoshi can't punish Mario's fireball camping very easily, and in most exchanges, Mario wins minus the obvious situations where Yoshi attempts to be cheeky with his really unsafe Up-smash.

Mario's camping is NOT a threat. It's crap. Absolute crap. Yoshi's jab beats his camp. That's pretty embarrassing, if you ask me.

Thought Yoshi did well anti-airing Mario? He does great at that as well with an overall safer and more powerful Up-smash. And think Yoshi baits well with F-smash? Mario does that better with greater reward. And I covered D-smash a while ago, which is very good in this matchup as well and will be landed any time Mario can read Yoshi.

It's funny, because you think Yoshi uses Fsmash and Dsmash, when they're really pretty unnecessary.

Also, anything can be landed on pretty much any read. That's a pretty crap argument.

And then I will point out Yoshi benefits from wifi more than Mario, where timing fireballs between eggs is harder, as well as precisely anti-airing approaches, two things which give Mario the advantage in this matchup.

See, that's where I know things are wrong. Yoshi shouldn't be throwing eggs at Mario in a campoff. Deflecting fireballs is so easy on WiFi. So is timing your approaches for when Mario throws yet another silly fireball.

And Inferno I'm pretty sure I know the matchup better than you. Besides, Pierce also knows this matchup as well and has contributed to it a long time ago.

What Yoshis have you played? And who are you?

 

[Famous]

Honestly, what are Yoshis options Vs Mario? Yoshi's "Projectile" camp game is easily shut down just as you said that Mario's is...The only amazing about him is his shield...if your not rolling around the place...

All I see from playing against Yoshis are mainly

1. Retreating Eggs
2. Retreating Pivot Grabs
3. Egg ledge Camping

Yoshis main way of racking damage in this matchup is from eggs and chipping away with jabs/tilts scored off the Marios mistakes...

The funny thing about all of this is that, like you stated, Yoshi will keep away/camp if they get the lead...Though Mario can do the same thing only better as far as keeping away/camping

Also, Yoshi cant punish FH fireballs, sorry...We have other options of covering our tracks afterwards..Yoshis Jab cant stop Fireballs from an overhead trajectory that high either...

 

[Delta-cod]

Honestly, what are Yoshis options Vs Mario? Yoshi's "Projectile" camp game is easily shut down just as you said that Mario's is...The only amazing about him is his shield...if your not rolling around the place...

Options?

We juggle you well. Usmash sets up for juggles.

If you try to fireball camp using jumps we can run under you and Usmash. The Usmash gets both the fireball AND it hits you. USmash sets up for juggles. Juggles are good damage. To avoid juggles, you generally get pressed to the ledge. Mario has meh ledge options in this MU, leading to more damage and KOs.

All I see from playing against Yoshis are mainly

1. Retreating Eggs
2. Retreating Pivot Grabs
3. Egg ledge Camping

In this MU? No.

Yoshis main way of racking damage in this matchup is from eggs and chipping away with jabs/tilts scored off the Marios mistakes...

And juggles. And ledge pressure.

The funny thing about all of this is that, like you stated, Yoshi will keep away/camp if they get the lead...Though Mario can do the same thing only better as far as keeping away/camping

It's actually relatively easy to break Mario's camping with Yoshi. We're fast enough to just run under, and grounded fireballs are sort of eh and make you less mobile, which is even easier for us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't punish fullhop fireballs with U-smash since Mario will be at the top of his jump arc by the time he is able to do another action. And they can be arced to avoid most of your attacks.

And U-smash is really unsafe if it doesn't hit, and if you think you can always anti-air with it on reaction, then it's baitable with the Cape. Honestly Mario shouldn't get hit by that move very much in this matchup. The moves that will give him more trouble in comparison are N-air, D-air, and B-air which he might have trouble punishing if his spacing is not spot on. Between needing to either stop fireballs or punish anything Mario does, Yoshi can't do both at the same time. At the very least he can't punish Mario very hard if Mario plays a slow safe camp game that never needs to get unnecessarily baited by Yoshi's walling tactics. And he is very capable of punishing Yoshi severely for unsuccessfully approaching.

 

[mars16]

I thought Yoshi had one of the best air games like... Jiggly

 

[SKidd]

Yoshi and Mario are not good characters

and isn't the idea of camping to waste time and force the approach?
so if yoshi can approach with a dash, why does it even matter

 

[Delta-cod]

You can't punish fullhop fireballs with U-smash since Mario will be at the top of his jump arc by the time he is able to do another action. And they can be arced to avoid most of your attacks.

And U-smash is really unsafe if it doesn't hit, and if you think you can always anti-air with it on reaction, then it's baitable with the Cape. Honestly Mario shouldn't get hit by that move very much in this matchup. The moves that will give him more trouble in comparison are N-air, D-air, and B-air which he might have trouble punishing if his spacing is not spot on. Between needing to either stop fireballs or punish anything Mario does, Yoshi can't do both at the same time. At the very least he can't punish Mario very hard if Mario plays a slow safe camp game that never needs to get unnecessarily baited by Yoshi's walling tactics. And he is very capable of punishing Yoshi severely for unsuccessfully approaching.

You're right, putting Mario in the air, where Yoshi anti-airs him beautifully isn't a threat. Or offstage, where Mario gets pressured very hard. That ledge is dangerous, yo.

I also like how you have yet to respond to that point. It's like you're avoiding it, or something.

What Yoshis have you played? And who are you?

I thought Yoshi had one of the best air games like... Jiggly

Not really. It's good, but it's not really made for walling or anything.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Honestly, what are Yoshis options Vs Mario? Yoshi's "Projectile" camp game is easily shut down just as you said that Mario's is...The only amazing about him is his shield...if your not rolling around the place...

All I see from playing against Yoshis are mainly

1. Retreating Eggs
2. Retreating Pivot Grabs
3. Egg ledge Camping

Lol, same w/ me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario can edgecamp like a homo and there isn't much Yoshi can do about it. I'm not worried about Mario's options on the edge when there isn't much you can do to punish me for waiting or for simply doing ledgehop B-air which you don't have the defensive options to punish severely. And for the record Yoshi doesn't just anti-air Mario for free, and he gets punished if he gets baited or messes up.

On stage however Mario clearly has the advantage and is in control of the matchup. Yoshi sucks at baiting Mario, who has a superior camp and bait game in this matchup, and Yoshi can't spotdodge for free in this matchup either which can result in him getting Jab hit confirmed into D-smash/Grab for good damage.

I really only wish I got to play Burntsocks, but I've won this matchup solidly in tournament. I'm pretty sure that I've beaten ItsWillYo in low tiers, a player who definitely is more accomplished in tournament than I am.

 

[Delta-cod]

Mario can edgecamp like a homo and there isn't much Yoshi can do about it. I'm not worried about Mario's options on the edge when there isn't much you can do to punish me for waiting or for simply doing ledgehop B-air which you don't have the defensive options to punish severely. And for the record Yoshi doesn't just anti-air Mario for free, and he gets punished if he gets baited or messes up.

A grab/Usmash will beat the Bair. And then you're without a jump in juggling position. Huzzah!

Also, please, do camp the ledge against me. I'll be counting those ledge grabs.

On stage however Mario clearly has the advantage and is in control of the matchup. Yoshi sucks at baiting Mario, who has a superior camp and bait game in this matchup, and Yoshi can't spotdodge for free in this matchup either which can result in him getting Jab hit confirmed into D-smash/Grab for good damage.

Mario has such little control in this MU it hurts me physically. The ONLY thing you have ever mentioned thus far is Mario's camp game, which doesn't cut it.

I really only wish I got to play Burntsocks, but I've won this matchup solidly in tournament. I'm pretty sure that I've beaten ItsWillYo in low tiers, a player who definitely is more accomplished in tournament than I am.

So, not one of the Yoshis who I would actually expect to know how to play the MU. So, he doesn't really count. If it were Socks, okay. But it's not.

 

[hippiedude92]

shoutouts to delta-cod for camping and timing out a little girl in apex pools that's how amazing he is

the only person that has the most exp in mario vs yoshi mu is...... shippo#2.... aka inferno

 

[Delta-cod]

shoutouts to delta-cod for camping and timing out a little girl in apex pools that's how amazing he is

the only person that has the most exp in mario vs yoshi mu is...... shippo#2.... aka inferno

Eh, Kiwi's Kirby scared me. It was mad good and I didn't have much choice. Shoutouts to Kiwi for changing my view on the MU and being good at this game. If she beat me she woulda made it past first round. Plus, I think she claws and its pretty awesome looking.

BUT BACK ON TOPIC.

Inferno's actually gotten pretty good recently, did you see him at Apex? It was a random large improvement, and he actually forces me to think when I play against him now, which is nice. Shame he's moving.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've won the matchup in tournament and nearly camped someone to timeout. I'm quite confident Mario wins the camping game, and the player I went up against camped me with Eggs and pivot grabs, neither of which were enough to stop me from successfully camping him in mid range. I got the lead very easily in the matchup and I always survived to like 200% each stock while killing my opponent at appropriate percents since I'm EXTREMELY patient with KO percents.

Both the grab and U-smash can be baited and it's not clear that the u-smash will actually beat the B-air depending on spacing. And good luck actually grabbing that.

Mario's projectile controls space and baits SO much better than Yoshis and Yoshi's baiting tools SUCK at stopping Mario from passive aggressive camping. It's actually not hard for Mario to approach Yoshi at all if he needs to since Mario can rather easily punish Yoshi's U-smash, spotdodge, and pivot grab in this matchup. Yoshi approaching Mario? That isn't going to go well for him.

And Socks definitely agrees that Mario beats Yoshi. I just want to make it clear how few tools Yoshi has to stop Mario from controlling the match defensively.

And trust me, Inferno doesn't know Mario like I do.

 

[Delta-cod]

I've won the matchup in tournament and nearly camped someone to timeout. I'm quite confident Mario wins the camping game, and the player I went up against camped me with Eggs and pivot grabs, neither of which were enough to stop me from successfully camping him in mid range. I got the lead very easily in the matchup and I always survived to like 200% each stock while killing my opponent at appropriate percents since I'm EXTREMELY patient with KO percents.

So, not one of the Yoshis who I would actually expect to know how to play the MU. So, he doesn't really count. If it were Socks, okay. But it's not.

I also think its funny that you're confident you can camp someone who I don't even know mains Yoshi in this MU to timeout. You're clearly not familiar with who I am and what I do.

Both the grab and U-smash can be baited and it's not clear that the u-smash will actually beat the B-air depending on spacing. And good luck actually grabbing that.

Protip: Anything can be baited.

Also, you defend Bair religiously. It's like you see it as God, or something.

Mario's projectile controls space and baits SO much better than Yoshis and Yoshi's baiting tools SUCK at stopping Mario from passive aggressive camping. It's actually not hard for Mario to approach Yoshi at all if he needs to since Mario can rather easily punish Yoshi's U-smash, spotdodge, and pivot grab in this matchup. Yoshi approaching Mario? That isn't going to go well for him.

It's almost like you think Yoshi should be using eggs in this MU. It's also almost like you think because you've played a Yoshi who doesn't know what he's doing Yoshi has no options. I applaud you.

And Socks definitely agrees that Mario beats Yoshi. I just want to make it clear how few tools Yoshi has to stop Mario from controlling the match defensively.

And trust me, Inferno doesn't know Mario like I do.

I would stake money on him being better than you.

 

[hippiedude92]

delta cod and inferno ALMOST BEAT THE GREAT LEE MARTIN AND M2K IN DOUBLES, GOT EM TO LAST STOCK,

that's pretty tight

inb4namesearching<3

 

[Delta-cod]

delta cod and inferno ALMOST BEAT THE GREAT LEE MARTIN AND M2K IN DOUBLES, GOT EM TO LAST STOCK,

that's pretty tight

inb4namesearching<3

Fixed.

<3 Inferno.

 

[Inferno3044]

shoutouts to delta-cod for camping and timing out a little girl in apex pools that's how amazing he is

the only person that has the most exp in mario vs yoshi mu is...... shippo#2.... aka inferno

Lol

Inferno's actually gotten pretty good recently, did you see him at Apex? It was a random large improvement, and he actually forces me to think when I play against him now, which is nice. Shame he's moving.

Thanks man. I've only started though. I loved my random large improvement from Friday to Saturday lol.

I've won the matchup in tournament and nearly camped someone to timeout. I'm quite confident Mario wins the camping game, and the player I went up against camped me with Eggs and pivot grabs, neither of which were enough to stop me from successfully camping him in mid range. I got the lead very easily in the matchup and I always survived to like 200% each stock while killing my opponent at appropriate percents since I'm EXTREMELY patient with KO percents.

Lol at booty Yoshi player.

Both the grab and U-smash can be baited and it's not clear that the u-smash will actually beat the B-air depending on spacing. And good luck actually grabbing that.

If Usmash and bair trade hits, Yoshi will probably have more of an advantage. And it's not hard for him to grab you. You make an approach, he sees it, dodges it, and pivot grabs. Grab successful.

Mario's projectile controls space and baits SO much better than Yoshis and Yoshi's baiting tools SUCK at stopping Mario from passive aggressive camping. It's actually not hard for Mario to approach Yoshi at all if he needs to since Mario can rather easily punish Yoshi's U-smash, spotdodge, and pivot grab in this matchup. Yoshi approaching Mario? That isn't going to go well for him.

Lmao at fireballs controlling more space than Yoshi's eggs. Yoshi's eggs have much more range than fireballs. Yoshi's eggs explode either after a certain period of time or it contacts with anything. He can also change the trajectory of them which gives him many mix ups. He can aim them at multiple angles that can hit you including you baiting cape or having it hit your feet so that you'll still get hit. Also remember that jab beats fireballs! I think I saw someone say that Mario can shoot his fireballs at such a high trajectory that Yoshi can't jab it. If the Yoshi is smart he will either (a) just move away so the fireball is lower and able to be jabbed or (b) punish that ****. If you actually are at an angle to hit Yoshi above his jab he better punish that fireball.

And Socks definitely agrees that Mario beats Yoshi. I just want to make it clear how few tools Yoshi has to stop Mario from controlling the match defensively.

I think Mario beats Yoshi. I just want to make it clear that Mario doesn't give Yoshi the ****.

And trust me, Inferno doesn't know Mario like I do.

Skill and experience > Knowledge

 

[A2ZOMG]

delta cod and inferno ALMOST BEAT THE GREAT LEE MARTIN AND M2K IN DOUBLES, GOT EM TO LAST STOCK,

that's pretty tight

inb4namesearching<3

I got Bigfoot and DEHF down to the last stock in doubles. And it was teaming with a ****ty *** partner who has like zero doubles experience. Let me be clear that I was using Mario in doubles as well.

In order for Yoshi to actually punish Mario as he does ledgehop B-air, he has to observe the Cape stall and start his attempt to punish it before Mario actually ledgehops with B-air, so I'm not really concerned about Yoshi's ability to edgetrap Mario. He doesn't have the option of edgetrapping with shield, and his Smashes for that matter aren't all that powerful, so it's not a huge problem at all. Oh by the way if you run and Up-smash next to the edge and Mario doesn't jump into the ****, you get U-aired or Up-Bed.

And no Yoshi can't just punish Mario for throwing a fullhop fireball. At the range Mario does it, it's pretty much going to be free unless he stupidly jumps into an egg toss. And if he doesn't he's going to be out of range of Yoshi's punishes by the time he can do another action which can get him out of trouble.

 

[Delta-cod]

I got Bigfoot and DEHF down to the last stock in doubles. And it was teaming with a ****ty *** partner who has like zero doubles experience. Let me be clear that I was using Mario in doubles as well.

delta cod and inferno ALMOST BEAT THE GREAT LEE MARTIN AND M2K IN DOUBLES, GOT EM TO LAST STOCK,

that's pretty tight

inb4namesearching<3

In order for Yoshi to actually punish Mario as he does ledgehop B-air, he has to observe the Cape stall and start his attempt to punish it before Mario actually ledgehops with B-air, so I'm not really concerned about Yoshi's ability to edgetrap Mario.

The amount of space from the ledge you need to do that severely limits your landing position on the stage. I could probably standing grab when I see this obvious setup and get you. Wall jump Bair is slightly better, but still incredibly limited.

He doesn't have the option of edgetrapping with shield, and his Smashes for that matter aren't all that powerful, so it's not a huge problem at all. Oh by the way if you run and Up-smash next to the edge and Mario doesn't jump into the ****, you get U-aired or Up-Bed.

Why would I run and Usmash the ledge? LOL, that Yoshi must have sucked mad hard if you expect Yoshi to do that.

And no Yoshi can't just punish Mario for throwing a fullhop fireball. At the range Mario does it, it's pretty much going to be free unless he stupidly jumps into an egg toss. And if he doesn't he's going to be out of range of Yoshi's punishes by the time he can do another action which can get him out of trouble.

You still think I'm throwing eggs. Lol.

A full hop fireball allows me to just run under you. A universally bad position. Do you realize just how ineffective fireball camping is yet? It has no purpose. You're doing it terribly wrong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh Fireball camping is awesome in this matchup. It's the reason why Yoshi can't bait Mario easily in this matchup. Yoshi's real existing game is basically baits, or whatever nonsense he thinks he can do with his aerials.

And between ledge refreshing, altering the timing when Mario ledgehops, or landing on stage for free, it's not simple for Yoshi to punish Mario for ledgehopping onstage with B-air. It would be simple if he had a normal shield, but he doesn't.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm going to be straight about fireball camping right now.

You throw a fireball. I jab to ping it. If you jump again facing forward, I'm already running under you. You're done. That's it. That's all fireballs do in this MU. And I have no problem running at a Mario facing forward in the air. What are you going to do, Fair me?

And you do realize all I have to do is watch what you're doing on the ledge, right? If you hang there too long, I will dtilt you. If I see you drop too far, I'm ready to grab. If you refresh, +1 ledge grab which I will use to time you. It's quite easy to react to something that involves using a special to turn yourself around. In fact, it's quite telegraphed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You would be surprised at how good Cape is in air to air combat. =)

By the way if you think you can just Jab to ping fireballs all the time, Mario's options to punish it are more rewarding than Yoshi's options at stopping the approach. Between F-smash and whatever options Mario can use to get a grab after fireball, Mario baits better than Yoshi in this matchup. And any time you fail to bait Mario which should be most of the matchup is when you should get hit. Either by the fireball or whatever you tried to do to stop it gets hit by something else.

D-tilt is not necessarily safe and can get planked or ledgehopped against for free. Trying to grab can get fireballed, which can result in Mario getting up for free since the fireball autocancels with no RCO lag and because the range at which you need to safely grab leaves you out of range for other stuff.

 

[Delta-cod]

You would be surprised at how good Cape is in air to air combat. =)

You're off stage and I'm grounded.

By the way if you think you can just Jab to ping fireballs all the time, Mario's options to punish it are more rewarding than Yoshi's options at stopping the approach. Between F-smash and whatever options Mario can use to get a grab after fireball, Mario baits better than Yoshi in this matchup. And any time you fail to bait Mario which should be most of the matchup is when you should get hit. Either by the fireball or whatever you tried to do to stop it.

If you can't accept that I can indeed jab away all your attempts to fireball camp, then you're in no position to discuss this aspect of the match up. Considering I put this into practice ALL THE TIME, I can assure you it works and that you're better off approaching using fireballs and not camping. Too bad that sort of forces you forward in the air.

D-tilt is not necessarily safe and can get planked or ledgehopped against for free.

You're assuming I'm throwing out Dtilt randomly. It's strictly to punish hanging for too long. And if you react to a dtilt with a ledgehop, there's a Yoshi bomb coming at your face.

Trying to grab can get fireballed, which can result in Mario getting up for free since the fireball autocancels with no RCO lag and because the range at which you need to safely grab leaves you out of range for other stuff.

Grab is in response to a Mario jumping at me backwards from the ledge. Sure, you can B reverse, but you're still close to the ledge without any real breathing room.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're off stage and I'm grounded.

which you are in no real position to consistently punish.

If you can't accept that I can indeed jab away all your attempts to fireball camp, then you're in no position to discuss this aspect of the match up. Considering I put this into practice ALL THE TIME, I can assure you it works and that you're better off approaching using fireballs and not camping. Too bad that sort of forces you forward in the air.

Any time you fail to BAIT is a free opportunity for Mario to camp. Considering that Yoshi's game is primarily baits which stop approaches, that is a lot of game that doesn't really work on Mario. You can't really land a Smash on him very easily, and while that might not be Mario's strength either, the baits he does have in this matchup are plain better than Yoshi's. And he can hit confirm into D-smash as well.

You're assuming I'm throwing out Dtilt randomly. It's strictly to punish hanging for too long. And if you react to a dtilt with a ledgehop, there's a Yoshi bomb coming at your face.

And you can get U-aired still. You may think you're clever with the Yoshi Bomb but it still depends on Mario's spacing. If he delays an action, he still has time to react and avoid the brunt of the attack. The point remains that Mario has options on the ledge and it doesn't change the fact Mario is better onstage with better walls, kill moves, and baits, most of yours which don't work on him due to his ability to camp safely.

Grab is in response to a Mario jumping at me backwards from the ledge. Sure, you can B reverse, but you're still close to the ledge without any real breathing room.

And still, point remains that Mario has this option, and it counters grab soundly. I'm not going to bother going into detail about the Mario mains that suck at precision.

 

[Delta-cod]

which you are in no real position to consistently punish.

I don't need to punish it. It's causing you to grab the ledge more. I'm counting~

Any time you fail to BAIT is a free opportunity for Mario to camp. Considering that Yoshi's game is primarily baits which stop approaches, that is a lot of game that doesn't really work on Mario. You can't really land a Smash on him very easily, and while that might not be Mario's strength either, the baits he does have in this matchup are plain better than Yoshi's. And he can hit confirm into D-smash as well.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with my quote. By jabbing to ping a fireball, I'm essentially baiting you to throw another one, which gets beat by Usmash, which is predictable, which is free damage and set ups. I don't understand why you can't get this, it's simple. Your camp isn't safe. At all. Stop bringing it up.

And you can get U-aired still. You may think you're clever with the Yoshi Bomb but it still depends on Mario's spacing. If he delays an action, he still has time to react and avoid the brunt of the attack.

If you try to Uair Yoshi bomb, it trades, and Yoshi Bomb is most certainly stronger than your Uair. And if we whiff because you airdodge, you're probably getting hit by the stars anyways. It's just a potential countermeasure for ledgehops. Then there's the part where this can be used for baiting, where you airdodge and then I punish with my favorite smash, the Delta smash.

And still, point remains that Mario has this option, and it counters grab soundly. I'm not going to bother going into detail about the Mario mains that suck at precision.

I don't really care that it counters grab if it forces you to land with your heels hanging over the edge of the stage. Minimal percent for that advantage is completely acceptable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not really sure what this has to do with my quote. By jabbing to ping a fireball, I'm essentially baiting you to throw another one, which gets beat by Usmash, which is predictable, which is free damage and set ups. I don't understand why you can't get this, it's simple. Your camp isn't safe. At all. Stop bringing it up.

You Jab a fireball and depending on the timing, you can be F-smashed absolutely for free. Fireball in fact actually does combo into F-smash timed correctly at any rate, so getting hit by it can result in a decent punish. That alone should be reason enough for you to be cautious.

If you try to Uair Yoshi bomb, it trades, and Yoshi Bomb is most certainly stronger than your Uair. And if we whiff because you airdodge, you're probably getting hit by the stars anyways. It's just a potential countermeasure for ledgehops. Then there's the part where this can be used for baiting, where you airdodge and then I punish with my favorite smash, the Delta smash.

Depends on spacing anyway, and Caping against the stars at the right spacing works great.

I don't really care that it counters grab if it forces you to land with your heels hanging over the edge of the stage. Minimal percent for that advantage is completely acceptable.

Assuming I did this in response to a properly spaced grab, you're probably too far away for a real punish, and it should be clear that Mario can punish a mistake much harder than Yoshi in this matchup.

 

[Delta-cod]

You Jab a fireball and depending on the timing, you can be F-smashed absolutely for free. Fireball in fact actually does combo into F-smash timed correctly at any rate, so getting hit by it can result in a decent punish. That alone should be reason enough for you to be cautious.

This is pretty situational and is a lot easier to see coming than you think. Fireballs are jabbed as a general rule, but they don't always need to be or have to be. Any other move can work just as well, including aerials, which allow for rush downs. Fireball handling is largely spacing reliant, but it's no problem, it just alters the method we use to deal with it.

Depends on spacing anyway, and Caping against the stars at the right spacing works great.

So you can air dodge through Yoshi Bomb and Cape as you're hitting your landing/end of airdodge lag? Pretty sure that's not possible.

Assuming I did this in response to a properly spaced grab, you're probably too far away for a real punish, and it should be clear that Mario can punish a mistake much harder than Yoshi in this matchup.

Not my point, it puts you with your back against the wall which is a bad stage position to be in. It limits your options to either retreating to the ledge or through me, which is good. Forced approaches are always good.

 

[SKidd]

Yoshi and Mario suck