The Community Tier List is dissappointing for Charizard players.

[Strider755]

He wouldn't have to acknowledge it, just quietly copy+paste the mechanics. And by the way, the idea that you have to enforce/defend a copyright or lose it is a myth; that only applies for trademarks. Trademarks are a different story; if you don't market a trademark, or it becomes genericized (i.e. aspirin or kleenex), then it can lapse.

A better idea: give the P:M staff amnesty from previous "infringement" in exchange for joining Sakurai's team. It's a simple stick vs carrot argument. Sakurai would get a more popular game, and the PM staff would have a more legal avenue.

 

[ZephyrZ]

He didn't copy/paste PM because he doesn't care that much about us competitive players.
To him, Smash Bros is a party game before a fighting game. And to most people, Smash Bros is also a party game before a fighting game.

We competitive guys are a minority. An extremely vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. And so, to cater to the masses, it's not balanced for 1vs1, not items, limited stages. It's balanced for a 4 player free-for-all.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Which is why Charizard excels in 4-player and even Team Smash while being slightly mediocre in 1v1.

And why we only have Final Destination in For Glory.

 

[PhantomShab]

Worst of all, Sakurai completely forgot Lizardon's shiny palette! I mean, come on! It's one of the coolest shinies in the source games, and you had to cut it out! What's wrong with you?

Um...

Spoiler

That's Charizard's original shiny color, from Gold/Silver/Crystal.

 

[Strider755]

Um...

Spoiler

That's Charizard's original shiny color, from Gold/Silver/Crystal.

I know that. It doesn't look as good.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Which is why Charizard excels in 4-player and even Team Smash while being slightly mediocre in 1v1.

The other way around, actually. Charizard performs optimally in 1 VS. 1, does OK in FFA Time and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack off, and is terrible in FFA Stock and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack on.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

The other way around, actually. Charizard performs optimally in 1 VS. 1, does OK in FFA Time and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack off, and is terrible in FFA Stock and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack on.

Really.... I feel like he's great in FFA. I'll have to test it out more. I can see 2 v 2 with Team Attack on being abysmal though.

I'll take your word for it though, I've watched some of your vids. You got a great Charizard. You must have EV trained the hell out of it lol.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Thanks.

Regardless of whether it is Time or Stock, Charizard in FFA is not as good as he is in 1 VS. 1 for a very basic reason: He is not built to handle multiple opponents at once. If you look at how Charizard plays in 1 VS. 1, you'll see that he does most of his damage-dealing through grabs, throws, Flamethrower and edgeguarding, all of which are far more effective in 1 VS. 1, since such moves all leave Charizard's back wide open to being attacked while he is focused on grabbing/throwing/Flamethrowering/edgeguarding one opponent. It doesn't help that Charizard is a huge target as well, in addition to the fact that one of his main KO options deals damage to himself (and Flare Blitz is also a far less rewarding move in FFA if you think about it. In 1 VS. 1, you take 9% damage in exchange for a stock of your single opponent, while in FFA, you take 9% in exchange for a stock of one of your three opponents (unless you KO two or more people at once of course), in addition to leaving yourself wide open to being punished by one of your other two opponents right afterward).

In FFA Time, he somewhat makes up for that with his sheer killing power though, since that mode is about KOs - Falls, though I'd say he is still medicore in that mode. But since FFA Stock is all about survival, Charizard is absolutely abysmal in it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

In casual free-for-all, notably not competitive, Charizard can just throw out moves like F-Smash and get easy results. In time battles, not stock, Flare Blitz is a much cooler move because every kill you get scores you a point. In time, it's not about being the last man standing, it's about your KO-to-Death Ratio.

It's not a game meant to be taken seriously. We all just take it seriously anyway 'cause we're all competitive like that.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I play charizard as my second main (meaning he is my second favorite character to play as, but unfortunately most of dedede's counters are his counters too, so I end up using him sparsely), so I was also very shocked and sad to see him placed as the #1 worst non-mii character, and while my charizard sure can't prove that position wrong, I remember playing a zard once as dedede, and I literally could not win a single game, and we played a lot of games! This was especially shocking since dedede is supposed to win the MU against zard. I can't even attribute my losses to anger, since I was so happy to see a zard that good!
Anyways, my point is that tier lists should place a character based on their maximum potential, and I feel that this list simply thought of charizard by the all too common flare blitz spamming noobs. That zard I played undoubtably showed that he has great potential, and out of the over 1500 1v1 matches I've played, that zard is the only time I ever remember being shut down by a character that doesn't counter dedede, let alone having the disadvantage against him, so zard's placement is probably the most outrageous error out of all the flaws on that tier list.

 

[Strider755]

Yeah, the Flare Blitz noobs give Lizardon a bad name. If the tier makers would rule out people who spam Flare Blitz, Lizardon might be higher up. I'm finding that it's a lot better than we think. Still, I wish Sakurai could have just copypasted the PM Lizardon.

 

[-LzR-]

They should have copypasted Brawl minus Zard. I want my Stealth Rock...

 

[Grizzlpaw]

This thread confuzzles me, why is everyone getting mad over Charizard's tier list placement?

One of charizard's greatest strengths is knocking the brains out of anyone who dares underestimate him.

Anything that encourages that A -Okay in my book



A tier list isn't actually a statement of how strong a chracter is, rather it simply shows how how strong the community thinks he is.
It has no effect on the actual stregnth or viability of a character whatsoever, so, so long as people continue to believe charizard is weak...


I'll just be sitting here

Wracking up free wins


The one thing i wish they had kept most from P:M is the backward hitbox of Nair when it first starts up.

Imagine the insane spacing shananygans charizard could do with RAR nair if that worked in this game.


Also Uthrow not being horrible

 

[Alex Night]

They should have copypasted Brawl minus Zard. I want my Stealth Rock...

You know, I was one of those people that was hoping for a Stealth Rocks custom for Charizard's Down B... Where were you on that one, Sakurai? You already invalidate Pokemon canon with Lucario's Aura.

 

[ZephyrZ]

....Charizard can't learn Stealth Rock.

 

[-LzR-]

This thread confuzzles me, why is everyone getting mad over Charizard's tier list placement?

Charizard is undoubtedly a low tier character. However the way his moveset works allows you to have a fighting chance against any character with a couple of reads. Most matchups will be uphill battles, but I don't see any unwinnable matchups.
The community tierlist has Zard as 2nd worst because they are thinking of Flare Blitz which is an awful move.

And it's not like Charizards tierlist position bothers me, I already decided to pick him up the moment his reveal trailer was out and I was expecting him to be bad because they always **** up with the super heavy weights.

And there isn't even a tierlist out yet and hopefully there won't be before May at the very earlier, it's way too early to say anything except the obvious toptiers.

 

[Charey]

....Charizard can't learn Stealth Rock.

Thunder Jolt isn't even a real attack, so it's not like Pokemon canon matters anyway.

 

[L9999]

Thunder Jolt isn't even a real attack, so it's not like Pokemon canon matters anyway.

And that is why Ganon has Falcon Kick and Falcon Punch. At least he has Falcon Stab (Warlock Blade)....

 

[-LzR-]

And that is why Ganon has Falcon Kick and Falcon Punch. At least he has Falcon Stab (Warlock Blade)....

They are obviously egg moves.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Charizard is undoubtedly a low tier character. However the way his moveset works allows you to have a fighting chance against any character with a couple of reads. Most matchups will be uphill battles, but I don't see any unwinnable matchups.
The community tierlist has Zard as 2nd worst because they are thinking of Flare Blitz which is an awful move.

And it's not like Charizards tierlist position bothers me, I already decided to pick him up the moment his reveal trailer was out and I was expecting him to be bad because they always **** up with the super heavy weights.

And there isn't even a tierlist out yet and hopefully there won't be before May at the very earlier, it's way too early to say anything except the obvious toptiers.

Personally, I believe charizard is mid tier or above, but that's a whole nother debate~



I doubt that flareblitz is the reason why the community placed charizard as low as they did. One bad move isn't enough to condemn a character to the bottom tiers on it's own.

Yoshi's egg role is arguably one of the worst side B's in the game, yet most people agree that yoshi is a good character in this game.
If i had to guess why charizard was placed as low as he was...

It would be because of the community's confirmation bias about him.

"Sakurai always screws up heavies, so charizard must be bad!"​

Keep in mind, the comminuty's tier list is a list of first impressions, and it's pretty much unavoidable that most of those early opinions will be colored by that bias.

Charizard isn't a pick up and play character. Most heavies aren't. You can't play them like your cookie cutter fighter and expect to win, there's a different mindset that goes into using them. Add charizard's unusual playstyle in with people's expectations of the character and you get where charizard is now.



You're right, it's still way too early to tell where most characters will end up (except for the obvious Diddy Kong and Sheik). Give people a chance to figure characters out.
When I use charizard, I rarely feel like a matchup is an uphill battle, unless I'm vs someone dumb *cough* ZSS *cough*. Perhaps it's all a matter of playstyle.

 

[-LzR-]

There is also the fact that 95% of the community has no clue what they are doing and their votes are included. I only take stuff from the SBR seriously for a tierlist.

 

[Alex Night]

....Charizard can't learn Stealth Rock.

And yet we have Pikachu with Thunder Jolt which isn't a real game move, Ganondorf using Falcon's moves with Dark Magic, and we have X-Factor the Pokemon who gets stronger the more damage he takes. Canon has never mattered to Sakurai.

 

[ZephyrZ]

And yet we have Pikachu with Thunder Jolt which isn't a real game move, Ganondorf using Falcon's moves with Dark Magic, and we have X-Factor the Pokemon who gets stronger the more damage he takes. Canon has never mattered to Sakurai.

Well, we've yet to see a Pokemon use an existing move that it has never used in a main series game, if that counts for anything.

Even Pikachu's Skull Bash is a TM move in generation one.

 

[Steeler]

Squirtle should have had Skull Bash, if anything. Give him frame 1 armor during the charge.

 

[Zethoro]

Yes, because being a super heavyweight that has the 8th fastest running speed is awful.
I'm glad someone else had a problem with it. Zard's no top tier, but to say he's third worst is apalling.
I blame flare blitz spammers in FG.

 

[SkyboundTerror]

As much as my inner fanboy hates to admit it, I do agree that Charizard should be low tier. I was never too informed in the competitive scene so I can't say where exactly he'd fall, but I can say that his strengths are those of high risk and require near-perfect prediction and reads. He's a gambler's character. There is no room for error when using Charizard because you will pay the consequences tenfold, and your opponent also pays that price if he screws up.

The orange lizard struggles hard against defensive players who will never approach and zone you out. Heck, even spam-rollers give Charizard an incredibly hard time because of the slow moveset and lack of approach options. Unless you have a psychic episode and see every move coming, you're going to have a hard time winning with Charizard. He does have his locks and guaranteed hits (think Flamethrower off the ledge), but none are guaranteed KOs, and you can only do it so often until the other player catches on and learns not to rush in. As soon as the field is reset to neutral, you're back to hiking uphill.

What I don't agree with is that he's a bad character. Smash 4 Charizard is not a bad character; the balance in this game is the best it has ever been, but as we can see, it's far from perfect. Like with other low tier characters, he's overshadowed by the superior options the rest of the cast has. He's simple with a miniscule amount of tricks and toys, yet daring enough to force the other player to be extra careful when recovering and attacking.

If you don't have the balls to jump off the ledge for a spike, throw out a random short-hopped Flare Blitz to catch a forward air, perform quick walk-off back airs, or use reverse Rock Smashes to punish a roll, Charizard isn't for you. Us Charizard mains play with fire because we can. Those who say he's bad don't take enough risks in general.

Now if only there was something we could do about those pesky ZSS players...

 

[-LzR-]

If you don't have the balls to jump off the ledge for a spike, throw out a random short-hopped Flare Blitz to catch a forward air, perform quick walk-off back airs, or use reverse Rock Smashes to punish a roll, Charizard isn't for you. Us Charizard mains play with fire because we can. Those who say he's bad don't take enough risks in general.

Well said. I agree that Charizard is a reckless character, further proven by the existence of so many armor moves and of course Flare Blitz. If you just keep trading with a reckless Zard you will lose unless your name is Lucario.

 

[toadster101]

People just assume he's bad because he's a heavyweight fighter, and they don't take time to learn the character. Early tier lists are really annoying for this very reason; once characters are labeled as "bad", it can be hard to shake off that stigma. Olimar, for example, was initially dismissed as being bottom tier based on theory alone, but he's slowly working his way back up the list.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

People just assume he's bad because he's a heavyweight fighter, and they don't take time to learn the character. Early tier lists are really annoying for this very reason; once characters are labeled as "bad", it can be hard to shake off that stigma. Olimar, for example, was initially dismissed as being bottom tier based on theory alone, but he's slowly working his way back up the list.

It's most likely going to be a similar situation with Charizard, too; the more people know about him in competetive play, the more possible it is for him to rise in the list.

He'll never get to A+ or S tiers, obviously, but Charizard as a character isn't used at all and that's likely why he's so low; a lack of matchup data. I could see him getting to C-Mid, at least, especially with customs, in the hands of a competent player.

I mean, remember when Mewtwo was F-Tier in Melee, before Taj came in and singlehandedly raised him from "worst character in the game" status into "difficult to master, but a good situational fighter"? Yeah...

 

[Strider755]

I still wish Lizardon were good enough for A or S.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I still wish Lizardon were good enough for A or S.

I think Char has potential for B- Tier for sure.

I'm not saying he's going to end up there without a doubt, but I have faith in the dragon.




I will not claim not to be biased.

Charizard is my childhood hero. He beats the bad guys, gets the girl, and doesn't scared of nothing.

 

[Leety]

Take this as a somewhat lighthearted/joking, a somewhat serious, and a somewhat motivational post right here. I'll split them into two posts since the first will probably be a somewhat longer read, but feel free to contribute. I don't claim what I say to be factual.

The somewhat serious post you guys can argue over

I feel there's a little bit of truth to what everyone is saying and I mostly can't contribute.

- I will say that my current stance is that Smash 4 has the largest roster right now. And this is the truth, every character on that list IS viable in some way. But unfortunately, that does mean there always will be 'the worst character.' Tier lists right now are going to take longer to fully organize due to the size and how it's mostly a balanced roster (Not perfect but probably the closest we've ever been) which it's been what? Three to Four months since the Wii U release? Not even going to count the 3ds version since there were changes to characters during that time. Whatever is on it is completely irrelevant and hardly accurate. Maybe rather accurate for the best characters and high tier ones, but all the ones below them is just a jumbled mess of mostly assumptions made by the community

- The only thing I'm going to point out that I haven't seen in the posts is the rage effect. I'm not sure how much this is going to change our current placement but it's a mechanic that is still very unclear. Commentators can't even seem to get an idea if it starts at 50% or 100% and Smash Wiki is very vague. All we really know it 'more damage to us means more knock-back in our attacks' Zard in his default set is very heavy and has an amazing recovery move which can only be killed at early percent by a cape if we utilize it correctly. With Flare blitz, we're able to get back on stage in which we can, auto grab to the stage and go for a recovery option, fall with our face on the ground and wait to use a get up option, fall and use a tech option, fall and make a safe landing, go to the other side of the stage and hang on that ledge instead. Way too many ways to mix it up with one recovery move, it's amazing. We do damage to ourselves? More to the rage mechanic. Zard, though he gets comboed early, I've never survived to 200% ranges because of how stubborn I can be to kill and in some instances I've ended stock through great reads alone. If there's any character that can make use of the rage mechanic, it's Charizard. Not sure how far that mechanic will take us, but it's something to take note of.

I hope that helps a little

 

[Leety]

I think Char has potential for B- Tier for sure.

I'm not saying he's going to end up there without a doubt, but I have faith in the dragon.




I will not claim not to be biased.

Charizard is my childhood hero. He beats the bad guys, gets the girl, and doesn't scared of nothing.

My somewhat silly/motivational post goes here below this lovely quote

Yes, we are biased to Charizard, but crack your skull open and think for a second of what makes us Charizard mains! WHY did we choose to main Charizard in the first place!? (Pocket in my case)

It's because we're freaking stubborn! When Charizard got his reveal trailer, he plowed through all those projectiles not even caring what would happen just so that he could challenge the mascot of Nintendo himself!

Charizard is easy to combo, but a tough one to kill. While playing as him, we place damage on ourselves as we exchange moves, but we never let it get to us as we fight to the very end. When we make a commitment, we stick to it and it might very well be the winning move.

There's a hint of overwhelming joy we get for winning with Zard that we just can't describe that we just don't get with other characters. It's because we won by a smart read on our part, and we're proud of it. And when we loose, we get back on our feet to try again until we achieve our victory.

Smash isn't just a simple crossover game, it's a game that's faithful to the characters it puts into the game. Sakurai doesn't place these characters in without thinking and give them moves. He places THE character in it. They're representation as video game characters.

Zard is represented by his stubborn, courage, and huge sense of pride. And us who love using Zard are probably the same way in certain ways. So don't forget about that pride that's in Charizard's eye the next time you hit that hard read with a forward smash, and don't be afraid to shed a tear when you've overcome a hurdle people thought was impossible.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Stuff

I never really had a way with words, but you managed to put things better than i ever could.
That joy you get when winning with zard that can't be replicated by playing any other character... is exactly why I'm determined to stick with this character, even if he ends up in bottom tier.



Like that's EVER going to happen!

We are the smashers of Rocks!

The crushers of souls!

In battle, our tails may be hot

but our hearts are cold




Just look at charizard, he's always smirking.

(No seriously, he's always got this huge grin on his face and omigosh when he hops around it's so cuu-- *ahem*)



...

Welp I just lost my train of thought



Fun Fact

Spoiler

Charizard gives the best hugs

The rage effect is precicely why you can't afford to drop your guard against charizard, even if the match looks like a guaranteed win.

I can't count the number of times my opponent got me to +100% on my last stock, only for me to K.O them with the sweep spot of Bair, and spike them just after they respawn.

---

Edit: I just noticed you have the same mains as me :L

 

[Strider755]

I noticed that the rage mechanic maxes out at 150%. That's when you need to start going on the offensive if you haven't already.

 

[Leety]

Edit: I just noticed you have the same mains as me :L

Coincidence maybe? o3o

.... *Suddenly glomps in for hugs*

 

[Mjolnir/Hunter101]

The other way around, actually. Charizard performs optimally in 1 VS. 1, does OK in FFA Time and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack off, and is terrible in FFA Stock and 2 VS. 2 with Team Attack on.

guy below says you have good charizard vids. can i get link to those plz?

 

[Knee Smasher]

Sure.

1 VS. 1s

Me (Charizard and Captain Falcon) VS. DireonFire (Villager, Yoshi and Little Mac), a professional streamer, in fifteen matches

Me (Charizard) VS. PLATA (Wii Fit Trainer), a very good player I met on Anther's ladder

Me (Charizard) VS. Haru Akenaga (Shulk and ROB)

Me (Charizard) VS. EgeDalyan (Rosalina & Luma) in a customs tournament

2 VS. 2s

Me (Charizard) and Haru Akenaga (ROB) VS. ZinogreVolt (Mega Man) and Flippy456 (Palutena)

The Dragons VS. The Birds
Me (White Charizard) and EpicSonicLatios (Default Charizard) VS. Kal1978 (Blue Falco) and Lord Tentacruel (Purple Falco)

Double Dragon Domination [The Vanity of Suicide Mix]
Me (White Charizard) and EpicSonicLatios (Default Charizard) VS. Kal1978 (Default Ganondorf) and Lord Tentacruel (White Mr. Game & Watch)

​

 

[Mjolnir/Hunter101]

Sure.

1 VS. 1s

Me (Charizard and Captain Falcon) VS. DireonFire (Villager, Yoshi and Little Mac), a professional streamer, in fifteen matches

Me (Charizard) VS. PLATA (Wii Fit Trainer), a very good player I met on Anther's ladder

Me (Charizard) VS. Haru Akenaga (Shulk and ROB)

Me (Charizard) VS. EgeDalyan (Rosalina & Luma) in a customs tournament

2 VS. 2s

Me (Charizard) and Haru Akenaga (ROB) VS. ZinogreVolt (Mega Man) and Flippy456 (Palutena)

The Dragons VS. The Birds
Me (White Charizard) and EpicSonicLatios (Default Charizard) VS. Kal1978 (Blue Falco) and Lord Tentacruel (Purple Falco)

Double Dragon Domination [The Vanity of Suicide Mix]
Me (White Charizard) and EpicSonicLatios (Default Charizard) VS. Kal1978 (Default Ganondorf) and Lord Tentacruel (White Mr. Game & Watch)

​

sweet, thx

 

[Dr.Pepper]

After the release of 1.1.5, I feel as if charizard definitely has potential in the middle to high C tier. It is incredibly easy to string together jabs, N-airs, F-airs,D-throws, and grabs across the stage at low percentages.Charizard also has utility in his ability to replace his third jab with a variety of quick moves, most notably up special. On Duck Hunt, a tournament legal counter pick, his F-smash always sweet spots due to the fact that there is no Z-axis, and his up throw kills at 33% with rage when executed under the top branch due to it being the 2nd strongest throw in the game behind Ness' back throw. There isn't no need to address his strong punish game, as a well placed FB or Fsmash will kill opponents at even 50-60% near the ledge. With a correct air-dodge read, his down air has a massive hit box, as well as long lasting spike frames, making it much easier to send opponents to the shadow realm that is the lower blast zone. I'm not saying he's top tier due to him being able to be comboed to the nth dimension, but bottom doesn't represent the potential Charizard has.