The Community Tier List is dissappointing for Charizard players.

[J0A0B]

Based on the community voted results of this: http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...irst-post-for-example-vote-on-phase-2.379736/

As a Charizard main, I feel both distraught and offended by the results of the community's decision to place Charizard at such a low tier rank. It is indeed understandable that he is not realistically able to compete against a variety of match ups and is often considered to be below a B rank. But from the way this tier list has been built, hes pretty much at the bottom of the barrel. What angers me even more is that now people are posting their finalizations of the list and moving him to even lower ranks. Some are even lining him next to Mii Swordfighter. Mii Swordfighter...!!! This feels like an insult to a lot of us players who know how to utilize him and control the stage against difficult match ups.

Ever since my disapointment from watching APEX, I've stopped playing online knowing exploitable certain top tiers can be and this list makes me want to avoid it even more. It's also starting to make me believe Charizard truly needs buffs even though it should be unnecessary for the most part. I'm really doubtful Sakurai's gonna allow a decent balance patch though, so I'm doubtful I can ever play game where Diddy Kong is being placed in his own tier by much of the community while Charizard is placed at the back of the bus with the sad sacks. Where's Charizard's rage attack when you need it?

 

[Yong Dekonk]

You can use these results to your advantage. Occasionally when I do face a Charizard in FG I think "well this should be easy." But I've lost a couple of those matches due to not knowing the matchup and playing sloppy. If people underestimate your character that gives you an advantage. Personally I think that's ehere Charizard belongs in the tiers though. Once you know that matchup he's easy to predict and highly punishable. Love him as a character though.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Charizard is a good character in competitive 1 VS. 1 matches. Just look at how he performs in an average matchup against the rest of the cast and you will see that he is at an advantage most of the time. I do not know what criteria the Community Tier List uses to decide the tier placement of characters, but when playing a fighting game, it is important to realize that tier lists are merely descriptive in nature - of some people's beliefs about how good some characters are relative to others, but they do not actively change or decide any reality about how good the characters in the game are relative to each other. The only thing that can change or decide how good a character in the game actually is is a balance patch.

Just for your information, Captain Falcon is ranked at #8 on the Community Tier List, but as a person who mains both Captain Falcon and Charizard, I can tell you right now that in competitive 1 VS. 1 matches, Charizard's matchups against the rest of the cast are overall more positive than Captain Falcon's (Captain Falcon does better against King Dedede, Mega Man, Kirby, Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer and Ganondorf, but in every other matchup, either Charizard does better or they're about the same). The following are the possible explanations as to why I have such findings:

1. The Community Tier List is wrong about Captain Falcon's tier placement.
2. The Community Tier List is wrong about Charizard's tier placement.
3. My skill with Charizard exceeds my skill with Captain Falcon.
4. Somewhere in the distance between where I currently stand (I am a person who peaked at #17 on Anther's ladder, just for the record) and the highest level of play (to which the tier list pertains), my effectiveness at using Captain Falcon will surpass my effectiveness at using Charizard. In other words, at my current level of skill with both characters, as I approach the top level of play with both characters, the rate of increase in the effectiveness of my Captain Falcon will be higher than the rate of increase in the effectiveness of my Charizard.
5. It is common-sense that the more skilled one's opponent is, the more difficult it will be to defeat them. And between the skill level of the average opponent I play against and the top professional Smash 4 players, the rate of increase in difficulty of winning against the opponent with Charizard surpasses that of the rate of increase in difficulty of winning with Captain Falcon, such that at some level of play above my own, the effectiveness of Captain Falcon will eventually surpass the effectiveness of Charizard.
6. A combination of the above.

#3 is unlikely, as I have been playing Captain Falcon since Super Smash Bros. Melee, while I only picked up Charizard about a week after the release of Super Smash Bros. for 3DS, and I also destroy 90% of people I face in Captain Falcon dittos. #4 and #5 are also unlikely, as while I by no means claim to be a top player, I believe that as someone who's been #17 on Anther's ladder and won nine tournaments, I am skilled enough at the game such that between where I currently stand and the top level of play, it is unlikely for there to be such drastic changes to things. So by process of elimination, I can only conclude that either #1 is correct, #2 is correct, or both are correct - in other words, the Community Tier List is incorrect.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can tell you right now that Falcon does better vs. Ganon than Zard does, if it really matters. I do think Zard is a bit above the low-mid placement of the other heavies(definitely not 3rd worst) but I'm not convinced he's ahead of Falcon, though Falcon's not top 10, maybe top 15, but there's a lot of competition there.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I can tell you right now that Falcon does better vs. Ganon than Zard does

Yes, you are correct. I forgot to mention Ganondorf in my previous post, but I will edit it now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd take community lists as more of a general opinion.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I don't think we should put too much faith in Zard. He's just far, far too vulnerable to juggles and combos. Turns out Diddy even use a footstool hop to help link a couple Uairs together on our boy Charizard.
A lot of the speeders and combo experts are going to be high on the tier list. That's not pretty for Zard. I really doubt he has any chance at being high tier and will only be viable in certain matchups. But "they will only be viable in certain matchups" could also be said for a lot of other characters in this game.

....However, I think putting him that low is really pushing it. Most people don't even have experience with any good Charizard players. I wouldn't trust this "tier list" at all. I'm not going to let this get me down at all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The Diddy Footstool uair thing doesn't work nearly as well due to DI.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well, I suppose not, but it just goes to show how easy it is to abuse Charizard's size.
I just can't see this guy doing well against Sheik, Pikachu, Zero Suit, and Sonic in serious high level play.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Tier lists are made from tournament results and subjective opinions rather than matchups due to how new the meta is also keep in mind that tier list aren't counting custom moves. Charizard has some pretty neat customs like Rock Hurl and Dragon Rush that help him with some of his bad matchups so don't take tier lists to heart and remember there was a time when Diddy Kong was thought to be pretty mediocre.

 

[-LzR-]

Characters with easy and strong combos will be much stronger in this young metagame. Once the metagame develops more characters potential will be discovered. At this point of course characters with simple strong tools will dominate.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

You guys play an uncommon character, of course your character is going to be rated low.

Community tier lists are pretty much popularity polls. They're not accurate and you should only view them as what the community thinks. General opinion isn't going to favor uncommon things.

Don't be discouraged guys, play what you want to.

 

[Shadow7474]

Characters always get a boost in tier lists if they win a major tournament. So if we see a Zard dominate it the next major tournament, it cold be possible he would jump to mid tier or even high tier. So yeah maybe Zard if really low tier or maybe he's mid. I don't know, but it's still early to have a solid list and just remember that about half of what makes up a tier list is based on popularity and the other half is actual facts.

 

[-LzR-]

Community tierlists are also inaccurated because most people have no idea what they are doing. Charizards placement on the list is irrelevant as long as you keep playing him.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Community tierlists are also inaccurated because most people have no idea what they are doing. Charizards placement on the list is irrelevant as long as you keep playing him.

Your profile picture is very fitting haha

 

[HakuryuVision]

I might be a bit biased, but i think Charizard will rise on tier lists.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I will say that with customs on Charizard is better than any of the other heavies that I play(all of them except DK) and is solidly mid-tier with all the tools he needs to be functional. His size isn't anywhere near as bad as Bowser, DK, and DDD and he has excellent survivability and better anti-juggle options than other characters in his weight class. His weaknesses are there, but his defensive game is strong, he's got multiple kill throws, good edgeguarding, strong CQC and OoS game, and great run speed which his opponents have to respect. He doesn't die early and he doesn't give away free damage from juggles the way Bowser and DDD do(though he does give away some). Custom Zard just feels like the most well-rounded of the heavies, though DK's custom jank might turn out to be a bit better.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I've second Charizard since his release. Probably my favorite Pokemon since Pokemon Red version (GBC) with Mewtwo at a close second. That's probably why I like Charizard so much in Smash.

When you play For Glory how likely are you to find a C. Falcon or even Little Mac vs finding a Charizard?

The fact is, nobody uses Charizard. Most likely because of all the hype built up from the supposed high tiers (excluding Diddy cuz he's just broken). But regardless, nobody uses Charizard so of course he's gonna be in the low tier. There is literally no extensive research on what he can do. Trust me, I know what he can do. Charizard has amazing moves at his disposal. But like I said, people would rather use the easy-to-use fast spammy characters. There's plenty of characters in the current High Tier that I can tell you won't be there when this game is finally in its prime.

Once Smash 4 reaches that fine point, and all the "high tier" spammy characters have been exploited for what they really are, I expect Charizard to be at around 20-25. Another thing to note is my main (Link) is currently ranked D-Tier on Smashboards while another board ranks Link as #9 in the list.

So relax Char mains. He's an extremely powerful character. Don't reference the community's choice on tier lists because they're just gonna choose the characters that they can pick up and learn after playing 5 matches.

 

[-LzR-]

Just accept reality. Charizard is lowtier and there is nothing you can do about it. Just make the most of it. Pretty much every lowtier character player in any game ever has told tales of how their character is secretly good and will have their moment only to never make it. This game isn't perfectly balanced and the balance will only get worse as the metagame develops. If playing a bad characters puts you off it's very unfortunate, but I plan to make the most of it to make it work, I just need to work much harder than those who play better characters.
A lot of there top players have played for a long time, possibly even 10 years or more. I am confident they know what they are doing and if the majority think Charizard is bad he most likely is.
Yes, I'm the negative guy here, but I just think it's how things are.

 

[Charey]

Although I don't think Charizard will ever be A tier I don't think he is near to the worst either. I don't think just talking about it will convince anyone though, if we want to move him up on the list we need to start training and start proving how good he is by winning locals and getting far in majors.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I'm just hoping that Dragon Rush can give Charizard some boost in the popularity charts at least.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I keep hearing Dragon Rush this Dragon Rush that. Is it that good?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Dragon Rush is pretty good for recovery, escape, keeping momentum, and punishing. It generally boosts Zard's survivability by getting rid of recoil damage and gives him a more flexible punish option at the expense of kill power. Really the combination of Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl's frame 1 Super Armor let Charizard's natural bulk shine in a way it doesn't for other heavies because they tend to be highly susceptible to juggles, damage racking strings, and gimps that diminish the true effectiveness of their heavier weight. With both of these tools Charizard won't hurt itself, won't be easily gimped, and has the ability to get out of non-guaranteed strings that other heavies struggle against. There might be some matchups where Rock Smash is preferred due to its power and better hitbox, but the ones where Rock Hurl is better tend to be high tiers who have lots of combos and near combos.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I keep hearing Dragon Rush this Dragon Rush that. Is it that good?

I would say Dragon Rush and Flare Blitz are almost equal. But Dragon Rush gives a different tool and playstyle of "hopefully you wont shield this". Besides, I feel the "Pichu effect" of Flare Blitz its what scared many people of playing Charizard.
At least Charizard has some useful customs that might help him rise in the tiers. Unlike my other secondary .

 

[ZephyrZ]

Both Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both very good at what they do.
However, Flare Blitz's strengths are far more situational. While a single Flare Blitz does have the potential to turn a match around, there will be far more situations in which Dragon Rush is helpful.

 

[-LzR-]

Both Flare Blitz and Dragon Rush are both very good at what they do.
However, Flare Blitz's strengths are far more situational. While a single Flare Blitz does have the potential to turn a match around, there will be far more situations in which Dragon Rush is helpful.

Well said. Flare Blitz is definitely useful, no matter how bad I keep saying it is. But why pick that when you have Dragon Rush that is 10 times more useful on an an average match?

 

[DrChops]

At this stage of the game, these tier lists are a better indication of the floor of the character's potential as oppose to the ceiling. These tiers were generated by the community whose whole experience with Charizard comes from playing them one or two times aganist a computer opponent. Because of that, they judge Charizard based on how good he is when played by someone without any experience with him aka his potential floor. Looking at it from that perspective, I agree with this tier list; Charizard is hard to play well. He requires a lot of timing and spacing to be used effectively.

As the game matures people will start to get a better idea of what the character ceiling looks like based on tournament results, Youtube videos etc. Take for example Jigglypuff from Melee. Puff was originally placed in the bottom-middle and eventually moved up to the top tiers (from ~17 to ~3). This happened when people realized she could be played at a high level.

Now, do I think the Zard will make a similar jump? No. Zard has too many issues and too many terrible matchups. I do think Zard's ceiling is higher than most characters in the "G" tier though, so he should move up a bit.

 

[-LzR-]

I like your point about the skill floors. Right now we don't know anything but the very early metagame which will evolve a lot in the next few years. The first tierlist that should come soon will be very different from the list we will see in 2017.
However I don't except Charizard to make any huge jumps, he has too many issues, but I still think he is going to move up if he does. In Smash4 being bottom tier is also not as bad as in Brawl or Melee. In those games winning with bottom tiers was almost impossible with all the infinites and chaingrabs and stuff going on.

 

[Dre89]

Thing is, I don't see how his meta will advance. He's a pretty binary character, with pretty much zero techniques outside of b reversing flamethrower and rock smash. He's just fundamentals. Characters who are already struggling and have inherent character flaws (eg. Being a heavy who can't force approaches against most characters) generally don't get any better because their meta stales early.

Zard mains will get better, but so will the mains of the other characters. I don't see what he has that will give him the edge over other low tiers in that regard.

 

[Strider755]

I'll admit it. I was pissed when I found out about Lizardon's tier placement; it made me want to bathe in mayonnaise. I'll admit, Lizardon needs some buffs. What the hell were you thinking, Sakurai? You don't nerf a character that is already struggling! In fact, why couldn't you have just copy-pasted the set from P:M? That would have made things a whole lot better.

Worst of all, Sakurai completely forgot Lizardon's shiny palette! I mean, come on! It's one of the coolest shinies in the source games, and you had to cut it out! What's wrong with you?

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

It's unfortunate, I had a lot of hope in him. I'm hoping at least Mewtwo can develop much better.

 

[Kuragari]

There are characters that are easy to play well, and ones that are difficult to play well. Charizard clearly falls in to the latter category, and it seems that his extremely low placement is due to ignorance rather than actual data. I cant speak from a pro perspective but from what Ive played and seem of him so far, he can be pretty amazing in the right hands.
I personally find it more fulfilling to learn and do well with lesser-used characters than ones that everybody uses.

 

[ggamer77]

Yeah, I find him really fun to play as too. :D
Though I do really agree he needs some buffs.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think most of us are a tad bit bias in Charizard's favor.
We want him to be good, and we know all of his good traits, so we start overestimating these traits.

Charizard really does have his strengths, but who doesn't in this game?
I don't think it's a matter of "Charizard is really good" as much as it's "Not many Smash 4 characters are really all that bad". Most, if not all characters in this game are viable to some degree, and Charizard is no different.
But he's still no Sheik or Diddy Kong. Not even close.

 

[HeavyLobster]

To me, what separates Charizard from low tier characters is the fact that, with customs, he actually does have the necessary tools to take on relevant metagame forces. People underestimate just how valuable the buff from Rock Smash's frame 5 armor to Rock Hurl's frame 1 armor is. I definitely did, but it really does mess with low damage per hit characters like Sheik and Pika who rely on extended strings for building damage, and being able to armor your way out of stuff most characters can't while retaining a strong recovery makes it difficult for these characters to kill you, and these characters still have to fear an early death from you. Frame 1 armor is really valuable in a meta defined by frame traps and hitstrings. This is why I rate Zard above characters like Ganon and Bowser. He actually has the ability to work around classic heavy weaknesses and has fewer situations where he's exposed and can't really do much.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I also think Charizard is better than most heavyweights including Bowser. Charizards much better at juggling than many higher tier characters and people don't realize that yet. The only problem that hinders this is his horrible air mobility...

He's got potential but he's very limited to what can be used to be considered a high or even mid tier.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mid tier seems appropriate to me for Zard, as looking at the entire cast, I feel there's a good chunk(about 1/3rd of the cast) who's below him and quite a few characters around his level. He's somewhere in the muddled middle, which means there's around 15-20 character slots he could plausibly fit into, low mid being his absolute floor.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Agreed. I'm thinking he'll be Low-mid with High-mid being best case scenario.

 

[Strider755]

Like I was saying, I wanted Lizardon to be a high-tier character. Why couldn't sakurai have just copy-pasted from Project M? It would have been a lot better.

 

[Smog Frog]

because if sakurai acknowledged PM in any way it would get a c&d