The Charizard tech discoveries thread

[Smog Frog]

hello all. this is the tech discovery thread. within this thread we discover, discuss, and break down techs to potentially find new techs. also, read the OP before you post techs. because we may already know about the tech you discovered. also, dont post stuff like b reversing because while yes, it is somewhat of an at, it works with every character and this is a charizard exclusive tech thread. please direct all discussion of those techs and their usefulness to the charizard metagame discussion thread.

discovered techs:

Sliding rock smash

details: uses rock smash while sliding.
how it works: to my best understanding, you cancel the momentum of the jump forward while using rock smash. it appears as if you can lengthen or shorten it depending on how long you hold the dash button. this principle is also demonstrated in: jump canceled usmash.

combo stuff(credits to @ Swoops )
Just thought I'd post and get this out there, BThrow can true combo into Dragon Rush on about half of the cast at earlier percents, around 10% - 50% depending on the character. Makes for a dirty KO off the side of the stage.

UThrow > DJ Dragon Rush also is a true combo against the whole cast at higher percents, around 70-100% range IF they don't DI correctly. I don't believe you can combo if they DI down/away.

I have a chart of which characters, I just haven't gotten an accurate percent list yet. Keep in mind it's Rage dependent.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

BThrow Combos

> Dragon Rush / F-Air / Dash Attack
Capt. Falcon
Fox (very difficult timing)
> Dragon Rush / F-Air
Bowser Jr.
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Ike
Little Mac
Lucario
Mario/Doc
Marth/Lucina
Metaknight
Palutena
Peach
Pikachu
Pit/Dark Pit
ROB
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
ZS Samus
> F-Air Only
Bowser
King D3
Link (at 0%)
Luigi
Olimar
Pac-Man
Rosalina
Samus
Villager
Yoshi (at 0%)
> Dash Attack Only (DI-able)
Greninja
Sheik
No Follow-Ups
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Megaman
Mr. G&W
Ness
Robin
Shulk
Sonic
Toon Link
Zelda
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, there's a few thing to note after all of that.

*This testing was all done in training mode based off combo counter. For some of these that aren't true combos, they are at the very least strong frame traps.

**I did consider DI, but from what I can tell, DI does not significantly impact this due to the trajectory of the throw and low percent nature of the combo.

***KEEP IN MIND FOR DRAGON RUSH COMBOS, you need to be jumping forward into Dragon Rush as soon as you release them from the BThrow. You recover from the throw almost instantaneously. (A good way to tell if you got is by looking at the damage. If you got over 11% from the combo, you did it right.

If there's one thing I noticed from doing this, it's that BThrow and it's follow ups are extremely weird as far as consistency goes. BThrow ends up affecting characters of varying weights, fall speeds, and air speeds in a manner that doesn't seem to have a common variable. BThrow > DR will work on characters like C.Falcon, Pikachu, Peach, Lucario and Donkey Kong, but then not work on Bowser, Diddy Kong, and Sheik. I could be missing something though.

Any input is appreciated, as I understand these weren't the most scientific or thorough testing methods. If I have the time I will continue to refine the list.

 

[Smog Frog]

reserved

commence discussion

 

[Davregis]

b-reversed/wavebounced rock smash sends pebbles behind charizard

 

[Swoops]

Just thought I'd post and get this out there, BThrow can true combo into Dragon Rush on about half of the cast at earlier percents, around 10% - 50% depending on the character. Makes for a dirty KO off the side of the stage.

UThrow > DJ Dragon Rush also is a true combo against the whole cast at higher percents, around 70-100% range IF they don't DI correctly. I don't believe you can combo if they DI down/away.

I have a chart of which characters, I just haven't gotten an accurate percent list yet. Keep in mind it's Rage dependent.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

BThrow Combos

> Dragon Rush / F-Air / Dash Attack
Capt. Falcon
Fox (very difficult timing)

> Dragon Rush / F-Air
Bowser Jr.
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Ike
Little Mac
Lucario
Mario/Doc
Marth/Lucina
Metaknight
Palutena
Peach
Pikachu
Pit/Dark Pit
ROB
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
ZS Samus

> F-Air Only
Bowser
King D3
Link (at 0%)
Luigi
Olimar
Pac-Man
Rosalina
Samus
Villager
Yoshi (at 0%)

> Dash Attack Only (DI-able)
Greninja
Sheik

No Follow-Ups
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Megaman
Mr. G&W
Ness
Robin
Shulk
Sonic
Toon Link
Zelda
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, there's a few thing to note after all of that.

*This testing was all done in training mode based off combo counter. For some of these that aren't true combos, they are at the very least strong frame traps.

**I did consider DI, but from what I can tell, DI does not significantly impact this due to the trajectory of the throw and low percent nature of the combo.

***KEEP IN MIND FOR DRAGON RUSH COMBOS, you need to be jumping forward into Dragon Rush as soon as you release them from the BThrow. You recover from the throw almost instantaneously. (A good way to tell if you got is by looking at the damage. If you got over 11% from the combo, you did it right.

If there's one thing I noticed from doing this, it's that BThrow and it's follow ups are extremely weird as far as consistency goes. BThrow ends up affecting characters of varying weights, fall speeds, and air speeds in a manner that doesn't seem to have a common variable. BThrow > DR will work on characters like C.Falcon, Pikachu, Peach, Lucario and Donkey Kong, but then not work on Bowser, Diddy Kong, and Sheik. I could be missing something though.

Any input is appreciated, as I understand these weren't the most scientific or thorough testing methods. If I have the time I will continue to refine the list.

 

[Steeler]

Does this stop working once Zard's at 50%? I think that's when rage begins anyway. So you just buffer jump backwards and then buffer the DR to come out as soon as you are airborne? You're doing the Lizardgod's work, Swoops.

 

[Swoops]

Does this stop working once Zard's at 50%? I think that's when rage begins anyway. So you just buffer jump backwards and then buffer the DR to come out as soon as you are airborne? You're doing the Lizardgod's work, Swoops.

Possibly? Lol.

I'll be honest, I stopped testing after figuring who it could and couldn't connect on. Very basic. I was pretty frustrated how inconsistent the bthrow is, it still doesn't make sense to me. I imagine that some character might stop getting combo'd at that rage, but it might just mean they get hit at 0% as opposed to 10-15%. My grasp on the exact effects of rage are limited, and at that this point I wouldn't even like to guess how they interact with the wonkiness of BThrow.

Cards on the table it's possible these are VERY situational, but at the very least it's a tight frame trap that can threaten death at very low percents and create other opportunities. (In the grand scheme of things, a bthrow at the edge of the stage giving you a guaranteed KO @ 20-50% vs the whole cast seems a bit...ridiculous lol). But you never know how applicable it is until you throw it out there and people try it out for themselves. I've had reasonable success with some characters on the list.

As for execution, you are correct. Perform the jump towards the opponent IMMEDIATELY after releasing and then IMMEDIATELY buffer into the dragon rush. Should be one fluid motion as soon as you can move out of bthrow. Some characters/percents work better with a short hop, others with a full hop.

I would recommend ROB and ZSS to practice on, then move on to Pit and Pika.

 

[Bloodcross]

Bravo swoops, this is some godlike information!

 

[Smog Frog]

now that we have gone into combos, should i make a separate thread for that or should i just include them here

 

[HakuryuVision]

now that we have gone into combos, should i make a separate thread for that or should i just include them here

Seeing how small Charizards' (true) combo pool is, keep it here.

 

[-LzR-]

We should test these combos as much as we can and find out exactly what is true and what is just a legit string. Then we can make a nice little chart with the possible follow ups and % they work at with what level of rage and so on.

 

[Swoops]

Well zard does have some combos with NAir, but yea that's about it lol.

The chart is the best idea as LzR said ^. I was also playing around again with this the other day and noticed I was still comboing DHD at about 60%. I imagine with rage in effect you can still combo at low percents. The best way to include this in the chart is probably find the common differential at 50%/100%/150% rage. I would look to the Samus combo thread for reference as it details a lot of how rage affects combos.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Charizard mains may or may not already know about this.


Backwards Nair has some interesting properties. You can use it to tag either tall or airborne enemies with the sweetspot, giving charizard an airborne spacing tool with a ton of range.

Or you can hit with the sourspot of the move (Charizard's butt). At low to mid-high% (depending on wight) this hitbox can true combo into either ftilt or Flareblitz.

The hitbox sends the enemy at a low horizontal angle, and, as far as I can tell, they aren't able to act before the Flareblitz hits them.

The reason why it works is because sourspotting backwards nair will never hit with the flame on charizard's tail.
Doing a regular forwards-facing Nair will give similar results, but you have to hit with the Nair sooner, or else the sweetspot will land. Doing this makes you have to wait through a few frames on endlag, and by that time you enemy has time to react.

Hitting with his butt allows you to hit at the very end of the move, and follow up into flare blitz much sooner.


The testign was done on a practice mode dummy set to walk, jump, and attack. I'm not certain if it works against human opponents, but, at the very least this is a strong frametrap option for us.

 

[-LzR-]

Nair to Ftilt/Jab/Grab is day 1 stuff. Nair to Flare Blitz doesn't work on sentient being.
Still gotta approve the backwards Nair, it's very useful.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Nair to Ftilt/Jab/Grab is day 1 stuff. Nair to Flare Blitz doesn't work on sentient being.
Still gotta approve the backwards Nair, it's very useful.

It works better than you'd think, but you need to make sure you have the hit confirm, and toss out flareblitz immediately after connecting the nair.

If you don't it's not a true combo (according to practice mode anyway) Nope, it's still a true combo according to practice mode, but delaying it allows the enemy to tech the ground.



If it's not working for you, you're probably either hitting with the wrong hitbox, delaying your Flareblitz by a bit, or you aren't in the correct % range.

Edit: Well shoot, no wonder. That first post was too unclear. Edited it so that it's easier to understand.

 

[-LzR-]

What interests me is does it combo into Flare Blitz at relevant %, aka when it kills?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Yes, it does. There's huge window where you can land this. It can still connect if nair launches the enemy offstage.

 

[Steeler]

Ok so I am testing this now. First of all, it is not a true combo. Xiroey, did the combo counter ever read 3 hits? I suspect you forgot that FB has two hits. A few things about this string. First of all, the sourspot, or butt, uses the 361 Sakurai angle. This means that at low percents foes slide along the ground a small distance. This is what allows it to true combo into jab or grab. At mid percents (Yoshi is 54% before hit in training mode but idk if it takes the fresh move multiplier bonus into account bc Brawl didn't) it'll start picking people up off the ground and forcing them to tech. Jab will still combo of course, but you can try to tech chase at this point. Blitz is unique because it's a mobile hitbox that lasts for quite a while. Blitz beats every option EXCEPT tech roll toward you. They will roll away from where your Blitz is going. Everything else, missed tech/tech in place/tech away will get hit by da Blitz. This all applies to Dragon Rush too. Blast Burn cannot catch tech roll away. You cannot hit them before they hit the ground to true combo. At around 65% and on, Yoshi is able to jump out before teching and there is nothing you can do about it. The knockback keeps them airborne longer. However, if they don't (or can't) jump, they are forced to hit the ground. Aerials will get stuffed out by Blitz or suffer landing lag, same with air dodges. However, counters can come out and **** your life up.

tldr there is a very small window where you force them into the tech chase, it'll only lose to a tech towards you. At KO percents, the best way to land this is after a juggle because you have hopefully used up their jumps. Another thing, if you catch them in the air, they will have more time to jump since they have further to fall. No jump? You might be able to guarantee you hit the "true combo", although they can still get out with movement like an up b or counter.

meh

 

[Swoops]

Ok so I am testing this now. First of all, it is not a true combo. Xiroey, did the combo counter ever read 3 hits? I suspect you forgot that FB has two hits. A few things about this string. First of all, the sourspot, or butt, uses the 361 Sakurai angle. This means that at low percents foes slide along the ground a small distance. This is what allows it to true combo into jab or grab. At mid percents (Yoshi is 54% before hit in training mode but idk if it takes the fresh move multiplier bonus into account bc Brawl didn't) it'll start picking people up off the ground and forcing them to tech. Jab will still combo of course, but you can try to tech chase at this point. Blitz is unique because it's a mobile hitbox that lasts for quite a while. Blitz beats every option EXCEPT tech roll toward you. They will roll away from where your Blitz is going. Everything else, missed tech/tech in place/tech away will get hit by da Blitz. This all applies to Dragon Rush too. Blast Burn cannot catch tech roll away. You cannot hit them before they hit the ground to true combo. At around 65% and on, Yoshi is able to jump out before teching and there is nothing you can do about it. The knockback keeps them airborne longer. However, if they don't (or can't) jump, they are forced to hit the ground. Aerials will get stuffed out by Blitz or suffer landing lag, same with air dodges. However, counters can come out and **** your life up.

tldr there is a very small window where you force them into the tech chase, it'll only lose to a tech towards you. At KO percents, the best way to land this is after a juggle because you have hopefully used up their jumps. Another thing, if you catch them in the air, they will have more time to jump since they have further to fall. No jump? You might be able to guarantee you hit the "true combo", although they can still get out with movement like an up b or counter.

meh

^ Yea pretty much all that. I still think NAir set up > Flare Blitz/Dragon Rush is solid, but it definitely utilizes the severe lack of Charizard knowledge out there right now. However, I think the threat of it will be useful when Charizards (all 3 of us lol) start doing:

N-Air, tech chase, jabs
N-Air, chase, FAir/BAir/NAir/UAir
N-Air, chase, USmash
etc.

...because theoretically the opponent can DI the NAir up at higher percents, and double jump or airdodge or whatever to get out of ground level follow ups. But that just puts them in the position for some powerful aerial follow ups.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It is good but sounds situational if you ask me. Probably would work well as a finisher. But sometimes it lands correctly and other times it sourspots meaning little knock back. Character dependent?

 

[Steeler]

I hate the Blitz sourspot so much. That is the one thing they actually need to change about the move. Make the explosion bigger so you don't hit it wrong and deal 4% and take 9% for it.

 

[Steeler]

So, the bthrow to dragon rush doesn't seem to be a true combo. ROB can airdodge right before it hits. Assuming bthrow hitstun is uniform across the cast, this makes it untrue. It's actually kind of crazy just how close this is to guaranteed. I would bet money on this being intentionally designed. Perhaps DR was slowed down juuuust enough to not make this guaranteed? Like, it's so tight that you don't have time to jump before airdodging. It is that close. Must be literally one frame from connecting. Too much of a coincidence to work out like that. But, not all is lost. In the hypothetical year 21XX where everyone knows the custom Zard matchup, you basically put them in a 50/50 guessing game. Literally the only way to avoid this is to perfectly airdodge or use a frame 1 to 2 or 3 invicible/armor move. However, if you throw them off stage, a lot of those moves are up Bs that will risk death. Anyway, all those options are easy to punish if you just don't DR. But if they don't mash airdodge, this WILL work. And it's insane. I think it legit kills people at 0%.

Also fair is a true combo on ROB but I could not get it to hit on Ike, so I don't know what fair works on anymore.

I guess we can start hoping for bthrow cooldown to go down by 1 frame or DR to start 1 frame sooner. Lol. With this and how close uair is to sh autocancel, it's fascinating to see how the minute details were finetuned by the devs. Too bad it's not good for Zard

After posting this, I realized I should test whether air dodge data is uniform. IT IS NOT. For example, DK cannot airdodge but he can Spinning Kong at 0%... HOWEVER, I randomly decided to try again after getting stuffed (both at 10%) and DK was NOT able to upB out... the combo counter counted it. However, I then tried it with all types of DI and ANY DI (up, down away, toward Zard) ruined the combo. It appears that holding up will allow any character to air dodge, slow dodge or not. Except for the following unlucky few:

Falco gets hit at 0% if you just DR, don't jump.
Will continue testing later.

 

[16LetterUsername]

Charizards "get up attack" (im not good with tech names lol) ive noticed is like, really good. For instance, if you flare blitz, and get knocked down, just stay down until they try to come attack you while your down. This move has huge range, and, for whtever reason, every person who falls for it never learns when its coming.

Its like, you know how there are those people who know how and when to sheild flare blitz and those who let it hit them every time? Its different with this get up attack haha...people dont seem to ever catch on,

Its really strange.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Charizards "get up attack" (im not good with tech names lol) ive noticed is like, really good. For instance, if you flare blitz, and get knocked down, just stay down until they try to come attack you while your down. This move has huge range, and, for whtever reason, every person who falls for it never learns when its coming.

Its like, you know how there are those people who know how and when to sheild flare blitz and those who let it hit them every time? Its different with this get up attack haha...people dont seem to ever catch on,

Its really strange.

Hmm... Never thought about using the getup attack
May help when not dealing with the more faster charcters

 

[MagiusNecros]

Will have to try the getup attack. I tend to try to tech roll away and get slapped for it.

 

[Steeler]

On Falco, Fox, and ZSS, bthrow to immediate dragon rush is a true combo because they fall so low to the ground. DR doesn't actually fully connect on ZSS because she pops out when she is mostly above you (no DI necessary). Must be because of how thin her hurtbox is. :|

Dedede is hit by jump -> DR. He appears to actually get frame trapped no matter what he does. His jump doesn't get him out of the way and he can air dodge at first but lands and gets hit during landing lag. Poor guy. If you throw him off stage, though, his air dodge is safe. None of his custom super armor moves seem to save him either. Weird. The frame data states he has frame 1/2/3 armor on certain moves, but it looks like there is a slight initial animation before these moves activate, which DR hits.

And those are all the characters that are true comboed by bthrow -> dragon rush. For all these characters, it was a true combo at 0% but not at 10%.

For the characters Swoops listed as getting hit by DR and/or Fair, there is literally a 1 frame window where they need to air dodge as soon as they can. This is the only way most of these characters can escape, unless they have a frame 3 or faster move with invincibility or super armor. DK and Marth/Lucina need to up B and can't air dodge.

DK was a true combo up to at least 30% (possibly the only character because of his size and slow airdodge) but this was only if there was no DI at all.

All the other characters that Swoops listed as only dash attack or no follow up characters can just jump out.

Keep in mind that this was tested in training mode, but I am pretty sure that the true combo stuff is accurate. Not sure if the frame traps are still 1 frame or not.

After testing in 1/4 speed and controlling both characters, I've learned a few things... like most characters have air dodges that are active on frame 3 now, and that this being the closest possible frame trap instead of a combo was probably intentional design by the developers. Especially because back then, DR did 4% more damage and would have guaranteed KOs at 0% if your back was near the edge. Makes you question why they would design throw combos like Diddy's, though...

 

[Bloodcross]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L19XpqQqMR4

 

[SmashRacer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L19XpqQqMR4

That looked so cool . Kills so early

 

[MagiusNecros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L19XpqQqMR4

I don't even. And Charizard is low tier huh.

 

[Steeler]

Pretty sure it was a true combo.

Eh on second thought probably not since you jumped but still. Scary af

 

[Swoops]

@ Steeler

Were you testing most characters at 0%? I've actually found that a lot of those characters don't get combo'd right at 0%, but at a early-mid percent range like 20-40% it would always register on the combo counter if done right.

Whether the combo counter can be trusted is another story.

the bthrow combo timing is really particular

 

[Steeler]

@ Swoops Yeah at 0 or 10 mostly. I tested on DK at 20 and 30 which was true combo, but any DI prevented the DR. I assume any character can DI it at mid percents like that.

Bthrow is fast doe so it's not *unlikely* to hit, just depends on if they are on their toes.

 

[Swoops]

No DI will get caught by FH Dragon Rush. If they DI down they can get caught by SH Dragon Rush.

DI up is the tricky one, but at lower percents I believe it still gets caught by Dragon Rush (DHD would get caught by FH Dragon rush around 25-30% whether he DI'd up or not.) Combo counter is still going up for me though on characters like DHD, Mario, etc.

 

[Bloodcross]

Jumping for DR against ZSS still worked for me in training mode at least lol (8 hits)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L19XpqQqMR4

That was downright sexy.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

That was downright sexy.

I think you mean hot

 

[Leety]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L19XpqQqMR4

I approve of this.

 

[Strider755]

OK, so I've been practicing this as well. I guess it's something I should keep up my sleeve and not use too often. Anyway, I've also practiced getting back to the stage, and I've gotten quite good at that too.

 

[Jellydino]

I don't even. And Charizard is low tier huh.

Tiers are more of guidelines instead of things to define a character. People have turned tiers into the new high school hot or not list. I've entered some locals (small ones in Bronx, Manhattan and community college campuses) in NY and won with Zard against ZSS, Fox and Sheik players just because I was able to outplay them and download their strats. It's all about the player and their playstyle 75% of the time.

 

[Strider755]

I've done pretty well at my local smash league with Charizard as well; low-tiers have a huge familiarity advantage against most opponents.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Charizard

low-tier

Spoiler

You disappoint