The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[AlphaZealot]

If you play Ike.

 

[RDK]

If you play Ike.

....or if you're playing against a Snake, a.k.a. EVERYONE.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

AZ you haven't given up on brawl yet ??

 

[Koga]

The removals from Melee to Brawl were MAJOR: wavedashing, dash-dancing, L-cancelling, and hit stun in particular. None of the additions you list are anywhere close to the significance of these Melee techniques. Glide tossing a replacement for wavedashing? Are you serious?

While many of the techs that have appeared in brawl or were left over from melee would not have been viable in melee, they are viable now because other techs have been removed. Like someonelse said, an option counts only if its acctually viable as an option. Alot of brawl's techs weren't worth doing in melee but they are worth doing now in brawl.

but yeah, glide tossing =/= wavedashing

 

[BlueBlood]

I'm glad I didn't look back at this thread until just now. One of the reasons I don't bash you noobs is because Yuna does it so well.

Ankoku, some of these people just will never understand logic. The idiocy in this thread is spectacular.

these are the kind of posts that make melee players look bad

 

[BlueBlood]

Halo 3 is being played now even though Halo 2 and 1 are much better games

A bit off topic but halo 1 by far was the worst for multiplayer (broken pistol) while i will miss halo 2's bxr for competitive play. Anyways back on topic

 

[arrowhead]

Wavedashing: not that big of a deal, and yes, glide tossing does replace this with some characters, not completely, but you can mimic some of the effects.
Dash Dancing: A bigger loss than wavedashing, but again, some characters do have dash dances that are effective.
L-canceling: no loss here, L-canceling was simply replaced with auto-canceling, attacks without auto canceling properties are simply the same as attack in Melee that were still to laggy even when L-canceled.
Hit stun: check the OP, there are two sides to this coin, better defense means 1)the pseudo combos that do happen require quite a bit of prediction and 2)whats wrong with having more defensive options?

wavedashing: you have to be joking. glide tossing definitely does not come close to replacing wavedashing with any character

L-cancelling: auto-cancelling doesn't work for many moves that would be more effective if L-cancelling existed (ganon's fair, lucas' fair, etc. etc.). the lack of l-cancelling also contributes to the already large lack of combos

hit stun: there aren't many "pseudo combos". DI takes care of that. now there aren't any combos. and there's something wrong when the defensive options outweigh offensive approaches.

your posts don't sound too fair to melee. i know you're going to be biased because you have an opinion, but you need to stop exaggerating so much.

 

[Shirum]

I tried, a few weeks ago, to write up one of your later points -- the absolute highest point of skill, the "solving" of a game, is nigh unreachable for something like Melee or Brawl, what with its thousands of possible deviations each 1/60th of a second. The ceiling is not so much important as the curve leading up to it.

But really, very well-written. (Some ignorable grammar errors, but never mind me.)

 

[Dope_Dizzle]

halo 1s pistol = too good.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Here is an example of the character specific **** I was talking about that would develop to start countering other strategies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pakhMiAStw&NR=1

I bet most people who watch that video will have never seen that before.

 

[Zankoku]

Antherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

sometimes also plays Lucario.

 

[Bud]

Man I love Pikachu's teleport. Good vid.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Here is an example of the character specific **** I was talking about that would develop to start countering other strategies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pakhMiAStw&NR=1

I bet most people who watch that video will have never seen that before.

I was there =D

Anther's Pikachu is ridiculously intimidating to play against.

And Ankoku, don't forget that he also plays with the ICs every now and then.

 

[Zankoku]

He also picked up Fox for a little less than a week before abandoning him. XD

 

[AlphaZealot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hIYYI9T8k

Actually maybe this is better, OS is known as pretty much the biggest camper in Brawl. So, there ya go, camping defeated. Or you could watch one of my 50 youtube videos of Diddy getting free approaches left and right.

There is increasingly more evidence about how wrong these "Brawl will degenerate into a camping match" and "no hit stun = no combos" theories already are, things are developing faster than I expected, I didn't think I'd see some of the stuff I've seen for another 6 months or so, or at least not until after a national tournament, I think online play is helping with the spread of strats and dissection of strats.

 

[Ban3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hIYYI9T8k
I think online play is helping with the spread of strats and dissection of strats.

not really cuz to me wifi is pretty bad the lag always screws up ur timmin even if just alittle bit like to me there are 2 'brawls' regular and wifi. and i dont play the latter lol but other than that i agree with everything mostly lol

 

[AlphaZealot]

Agreed, online is different, however, the strategies are still there. Online is not so awful the strategies of camping and players countering camping don't exist. Its more like, sometime you press a button and it doesn't always take, which granted, sucks, but doesn't detract from the fact that strategy is still a key part of success.

 

[arrowhead]

one of my strategies is to spam falco's lasers until my opponent figures out the input lag and is finally able to react

 

[thumbswayup]

AZ, have you ever tryed double diddy in teams? It's more effective than you might think.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Not yet, Chillin/Azen tried it once against me/Chu and got destroyed.

 

[DD151]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hIYYI9T8k

Actually maybe this is better, OS is known as pretty much the biggest camper in Brawl. So, there ya go, camping defeated.

i don't think this is convincing at all, considering how much anther was camping with thundershock.

 

[AlphaZealot]

ROFL. So, its camping whenever anyone uses a projectile? Anther was the assesor most of that match, save for the few times he did retreating thundershocks, which were usually all after he ran into for an approach. He wasn't camping.

 

[Zankoku]

Anther can't really be said to be an aggressive player, either. He used the thundershocks to get in damage until he saw a safe approach, and he knows how to maintain pressure when an attack happens to work, but he will largely play a patient zoning/safe approach (passive/aggressive) game over anything that can be described as really aggressive.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm okay with that description, but every video where I've seen him use thundershock, it has been in the method you describe, not in one of those "I'll sit on one side of the stage and camp projectiles" which the other user was implying.

 

[Camerican]

Even so , ive played anther and hes a beast without camping, and really throwing those shocks out for keeping htem on there toes and extra dmg is smart, not camping. I would also like to point out hes from what I can tell moved to a more agressive path anyways XD

 

[Zankoku]

Even so , ive played anther and hes a beast without camping, and really throwing those shocks out for keeping htem on there toes and extra dmg is smart, not camping. I would also like to point out hes from what I can tell moved to a more agressive path anyways XD

I've played Anther in person, which I should hope is more relevant than Wifi play. >_>

 

[Camerican]

nope playing on wifi means everything ! , i joke of coarse im just saying that im a fairly decent player and i played him like 2 days ago and he hardly used the shock , i pretty much got past it easily and he stoped using it. XD then he went all crazy kung fu combo pikachu on my face and it was an intense match XD , also you have some crazy *** art going on o_0

 

[thumbswayup]

Not yet, Chillin/Azen tried it once against me/Chu and got destroyed.

DK Smash and I tried it against Azen and Chu (Lucario/Falco) and almost won. Came down to the last stock just DK and Azen, both at 120% plus.

 

[Anther]

My style's getting broken down everywhere, yall need to stop before it turns on me =P.

Omg really amazing first post btw AlphaZealot. I agree 98.453%. I don't even know where the debate is at this point except I have to say that Zjin's silly and the brawl debate seems to have turned into whether or not Anther camps... which is pretty sweet =].

Only thing wrong with the game atm is the fact that approaching snake is stupid >.>.

 

[Zankoku]

Anther definitely camps. He then goes on to point it out by offering you a roasted marshmallow after he wins the round.

Don't deny it, Anther. You know you love camping. You meet more squirrels that way.

 

[Anther]

I camp? Lemme tell you something offensive about my style is the fact that I've never had the patience to properly roast a marshmallow without catching it on fire.

But you're right I'm all about the curls for the squirrels.

 

[LP4Life666]

(In response to the first post)

You're analogy between checkers and chess pretty much sums up your point of view nicely. I enjoyed reading the entire post, and you clearly show that you have a passion for Smash Bros that goes beyond simply playing the game, but also adds a powerful message to the community. I agree that in reality, the longevity of the game lies not in the game itself, but the players that choose to whether or not they want to keep the game alive.

All in all, it was incredibly well written and thought out. Great contribution, Zealot.

 

[Roller]

Amazing first post! Very enlightening and truthfull.

@Ankoku, I love your Orzhov sig, you still play?

@Anther, I love teh squirrel, and you don't camp (atleast not when I've played you). =)

 

[okiyama]

Here is an example of the character specific **** I was talking about that would develop to start countering other strategies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pakhMiAStw&NR=1

I bet most people who watch that video will have never seen that before.

Actually, that was winners finals.
They played again at the grand finals and Anther lost. Sot his isn't really evidence.

 

[Zankoku]

Meh. Anther has a way of not caring sometimes, even when a tournament is at stake. How do you think someone like me takes games off of him? He sandbags. :V

 

[BrawlBro]

wow, OP is really good

and I only had time to read the bold parts, ill read the rest later...

but the boldface thoughts definitly have me interested in tackling that wall of text.

 

[Xanthus]

Fantastic post, I agree. I don't feel like reading any replies after that short-book, but ... great post AlphaZealot