The BlazBlue Thread: all the imports!

[GigaBowserXyZ]

I'd like characters who were always high tier bottom tier. :3

Spoiler

Valk, Hazama, Tao

 

[Rutger]

I don't know if a low tier Valk is even possible.

 

[Raziek]

Low Haz would be pretty damn difficult too. You'd have to fundamentally alter the character in a way that would gut the playstyle.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Hey now, leave Tao outta this, lol. And Hazama's the kind that's always going to be A by design, but never quite S.

 

[Spelt]

I don't think it'd be difficult to make any character bad.

 

[Raziek]

[6:26:03 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): yo
[6:26:18 PM] DRB | Raziek: hoy seph
[6:26:27 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Would this nerf Haz enough to make him low tier?
[6:26:28 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Add start up lag on snake, less distance with jumps.
[6:26:54 PM] DRB | Raziek: He's already had more lag on snake
[6:27:03 PM] DRB | Raziek: they sped up startup in one of the interations
[6:27:06 PM] DRB | Raziek: was still high tier
[6:27:29 PM] DRB | Raziek: jump height would have to be pretty significant, would need to be enough to cause you to get weak-hit chain at a long range
[6:28:02 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): hmm good points
[6:28:18 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): I just saw your post and started thinking if it really was that hard
[6:28:36 PM] DRB | Raziek: Like, you'd essentially have to crush a LOT of his numbers
[6:28:53 PM] DRB | Raziek: he's already had low-ish damage in neutral
[6:29:01 PM] DRB | Raziek: and was still good
[6:29:24 PM] DRB | Raziek: he's already had varying degrees of meter gain
[6:29:29 PM] DRB | Raziek: loops or no loops
[6:29:47 PM] DRB | Raziek: Jayoku's been nerfed from god tier reversal and he's still good
[6:30:25 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Jayoku?
[6:30:55 PM] DRB | Raziek: Houtenjin? 236236B? KICK TO THE JUNK?
[6:31:00 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): oh yeah
[6:31:07 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): sorry I don't remember super names

Like, in order to make Hazama bad you'd have to apply like, every single one of these nerfs at the same time.

They've tweaked almost every single facet of his gameplay at one point or another and he's always been A or better.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Yeah, they've changed him up a bit 3 times and he's still good. I'm convinced they could make Sweet Chin Music worthless and he'd still be pretty good without it.

 

[Meru.]

Low Haz would be pretty damn difficult too. You'd have to fundamentally alter the character in a way that would gut the playstyle.

That's what everybody said about Rachel too.

Boy, was everybody wrong...

Also how can you not remember JAYOKU HOUTENJIN's name. DX I get hit by that *******'s move a million times and each time it hits he screams it at volume 1000.

 

[Spelt]

Hazama has never really had low-ish damage. It's always been average/above average all around.

And Jayoku is still god tier. The best you can do if you're not just outright baiting it is trade and 99% of the time those still work out in his favor.

They've just done a really good job at not screwing him over so far. Like when they nerf his chains they always buff another aspect so it's never really been a big deal. The biggest nerf he's ever gotten is like ... 6c repeat proration, lol.

 

[Raziek]

Hazama has never really had low-ish damage. It's always been average/above average all around.

[6:28:36 PM] DRB | Raziek: Like, you'd essentially have to crush a LOT of his numbers
[6:28:53 PM] DRB | Raziek: he's already had low-ish damage in neutral
[6:29:01 PM] DRB | Raziek: and was still good
[6:29:24 PM] DRB | Raziek: he's already had varying degrees of meter gain

And Jayoku is still god tier. The best you can do if you're not just outright baiting it is trade and 99% of the time those still work out in his favor.

I don't see it as a reversal as much. More so in combos. They gave that repeat proration, too.

It's just not quite the once godly "Do this out of blockstun and win" move. Like, yeah, you can trade with it now, but before you'd just win.

They've just done a really good job at not screwing him over so far. Like when they nerf his chains they always buff another aspect so it's never really been a big deal. The biggest nerf he's ever gotten is like ... 6c repeat proration, lol.

Maybe that's because it's hard to make him bad, which was the whole point of the discussion.

Like, maybe it's just me, but it feels like you tried really hard to misinterpret pretty much everything I said.

 

[Rutger]

That's what everybody said about Rachel too.

Boy, was everybody wrong...

They took away everything Rachel had, of course she would be awful afterwards, but I think it wouldn't be hard to find a middle ground with her as they have already done.

Valk and Hazama have everything they would ever need, I can't imagine they would ever be anything other that really damn good or really damn awful without just making everyone else godlike.

 

[Spelt]

I don't see it as a reversal as much. More so in combos. They gave that repeat proration, too.

It's just not quite the once godly "Do this out of blockstun and win" move. Like, yeah, you can trade with it now, but before you'd just win.

Maybe that's because it's hard to make him bad, which was the whole point of the discussion.

Like, maybe it's just me, but it feels like you tried really hard to misinterpret pretty much everything I said.

But everyone has low-ish damage in neutral. Everyone needs certain hits to net them good damage, but hazama overall has pretty above average damage.

I've never seen jayoku as a "do this out of blockstun and win" move. It's just as viable as a reversal, and in combos, as it has always been.

I'm not trying to start trouble here, I just disagree with you and I'm trying to voice my opinion. Stop acting like I'm personally offending your mother or something. My posts have been extremely tame, especially compared to how I usually post because I am just so over everything I say in this thread turning into an all out war. But apparently I just can't get away from it no matter what I do.

 

[Raziek]

This is probably due to our difference in perception.

I'm not sure if you play Hazama, or if you did during early CS incarnations, but old Jayoku you basically didn't even have to IB to use it as a reversal. You'd just outright beat pretty much everything you threw it at.

As for the damage in neutral, I'm obviously talking about in comparison to the rest of the cast.

He's always had very strong damage with meter, but in I think.... the first edition of CS2, he didn't really have anything over like... 2k outside of the corner. (meterless, obv) I know that was the case for a good portion of the cast, but it was low even with respect to the average.

 

[Minato]

Sounds like you guys are kind of talking about two different things. If we're talking about literal,

I don't think it'd be difficult to make any character bad.

I'd have to agree with this. I mean, this is Arcsys lol. They'll change entire properties of moves and even delete some.

he's already had low-ish damage in neutral

I don't know what this really means.

They took away everything Rachel had, of course she would be awful afterwards, but I think it wouldn't be hard to find a middle ground with her as they have already done.

Valk and Hazama have everything they would ever need, I can't imagine they would ever be anything other that really damn good or really damn awful without just making everyone else godlike.

Your two paragraphs contradict themselves though. Rachel had everything she needed and then some. Nothing's stopping Arcsys from doing the same to Valk and Hazama by taking them away.

As for Rachel, they removed a lot of the ******** stuff about her. I find the hitbox changes and the damage changes to hurt her the most. They gave her pretty good buffs in CS, but they wouldn't do any good with that low damage output.

Edit: And of course, I don't mean remove stuff from Valk and Hazama to the point where it's like CS Rachel.

 

[Lythium]

I think what Raz is trying to say is that Hazama has low damage off of his pokes. Also, I think it would be more accurate to say that Hazama has lower than average damage until he has 50 heat. Also, there are supers like Omohikane that beat Jayoku clean.

And yeah, they could make Hazama bad, but it would take a lot of work (like CS1 Rachel imo). The reason that Hazama is so good is that his gameplan is so safe, so they would really have to nerf that in order to make him bad.

 

[GigaBowserXyZ]

Hey now, leave Tao outta this, lol.

Hell no. She's been an above average character for maybe longer than Valk and Haz (I forgot how good she was in CT).

 

[Raziek]

That is indeed what I'm trying to say.

Low damage off midscreen random hits unless he has meter.

 

[Lythium]

Tao's been good in every game.

She had even match-ups against characters like Rachel and Nu in CT, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Rutger]

Your two paragraphs contradict themselves though. Rachel had everything she needed and then some. Nothing's stopping Arcsys from doing the same to Valk and Hazama by taking them away.

As for Rachel, they removed a lot of the ******** stuff about her. I find the hitbox changes and the damage changes to hurt her the most. They gave her pretty good buffs in CS, but they wouldn't do any good with that low damage output.

Edit: And of course, I don't mean remove stuff from Valk and Hazama to the point where it's like CS Rachel.

Eh, I was looking at it as if there was a difference between awful and low tier in fairly well balanced game like Extend. I just felt it might be easier to balance Rachel than Valk or Hazama.

I guess it's kind of pointless to separate them, change enough and any character can become terrible or godlike.

Ah well, looks like my simple comment snowballed into a mess. :/

 

[LivewiresXe]

Tao's been good in every game.

She had even match-ups against characters like Rachel and Nu in CT, I'm pretty sure.

She did? I thought she only had 1 good match out of the top 3 in CT? Either way, she's just so fun even if you don't know what you're doing. Good times.

 

[Lythium]

The thing is that Tao is really mobile, so she was always able to circumvent most of the top three's shenanigans. :3

 

[LivewiresXe]

Well, I guess that's a good point. It's hard to get hit by Nu's swords if you just shoot right past them and can land behind her.

 

[Lythium]

Looks like another round of loketests are coming up.

November 7th to 13th, at HEY Akihabara. Mu and Nu are not selectable characters.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Looks like another round of loketests are coming up.

November 7th to 13th, at HEY Akihabara. Mu and Nu are not selectable characters.

Hmm...would that make them console exclusive then, do you think?

 

[Lythium]

No, they'll probably just be released with the proper arcade release, I imagine.

That's just pure speculation though.

 

[Minato]

Hmm...would that make them console exclusive then, do you think?

They're time released characters in arcade. Which means they'll be in the arcade later down the line.

 

[LivewiresXe]

That works too, I guess it kinda would be a bit silly to arcade exclude them completely.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What do you do against drive happy Noel? It gives invincibility frames so I can't counter it, and if I wait it out to counter, it just gives free block pressure.

 

[LivewiresXe]

What do you do against drive happy Noel? It gives invincibility frames so I can't counter it, and if I wait it out to counter, it just gives free block pressure.

A lot of drive happy spamming stuff has semi-slow startup and a lot of it is low-counterable. The exception to this is of course 2D, which is an overhead. However, it's easily punishable and relatively easy to see coming when it happens. With Noel as a character, although she does have a projectile and Distortions that shoot projectiles, she's not a keep-away or distance character by any means and her projectiles are most often used within a combo or to catch someone occasionally off guard when they're being predictable. For her to get good damage off she has to be close, which means she often has to approach you, and if you're good at keeping her out, then she'll have a hard time getting close for that damage.

A drive-happy Noel especially won't have much of an answer for keep-away or quick uppercuts and as a result of not knowing much else will continually go to the well and get frustrated because they'll have (mistakenly, and incorrectly) heard how easy it is to get everything with her and how it's a simple matter of "Mash D, beat opponents senseless, profit". They're kind of an irritating breed I admit and it does indeed have a tendency to sometimes make me feel a bit embarrassed for the rest of us. Anyway, hope that helps.

 

[Crusayer]

2D is not an overhead livewire ._________.

Just zone them out with that huge sword. Use that poke attack normal (i have no idea what hakumen's inputs are).

You could probably stomp them too lol

5D and 4D are only head, body invinc. Use something low like 2B.
2D is only foot invinc so something relatively meaty will do. Counter would work for this. As would an anti-air.

 

[Minato]

2D hasn't been an overhead since CT, iirc.

And Noel's unsafe on drive usually. If it's an Assault Through ender, you can punish by mashing throw before it hits (not recommended unless you're reacting in case she doesn't do Assault Through) or by punishing on block. It doesn't take away a guard primer in Extend, so it's recommended to do the latter now. Bloom Trigger is punishable on block. If the pushback is too far for your character to punish, best thing to do is IB the Bloom Trigger to stay close. Optical Barrel is safe on block, but I think you can mash during startup.

And if it's netplay and it's laggy... then good luck. lol

 

[Crusayer]

I don't think mashy noels get away with most of their stuff offline since they'd have actual people pooping on them in real time.

Only netplay noels can feel like they get away with it and continue to do so.

Tagers can get away with 360 in every situation though.

 

[LivewiresXe]

2D hasn't been an overhead since CT, iirc.

And Noel's unsafe on drive usually. If it's an Assault Through ender, you can punish by mashing throw before it hits (not recommended unless you're reacting in case she doesn't do Assault Through) or by punishing on block. It doesn't take away a guard primer in Extend, so it's recommended to do the latter now. Bloom Trigger is punishable on block. If the pushback is too far for your character to punish, best thing to do is IB the Bloom Trigger to stay close. Optical Barrel is safe on block, but I think you can mash during startup.

And if it's netplay and it's laggy... then good luck. lol

In fairness, I meant to say it's often used like one, but that's besides the point. Just about every Drive Ender is punishable on block (take Spring Raid, for example) and well, with Hakumen it shouldn't be too hard. Even when it comes to online, once you get it figured out, there really isn't much need for concern. Also, it's worth noting that a bunch of Noel's Drives count as projectiles, so things that will counter projectiles often work on those. At least, last I checked. I'm admittedly rusty on whether that's still the case or if it stopped being that after CS2, but I want to say that's still the case.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What do I do against j2D?

 

[LivewiresXe]

What do I do against j2D?

There's no actual j2D. There's a jD, or do you mean j4D, where she sort of flips and lands behind you?

 

[Minato]

I found Noel's drive strings hard to deal with in CS2. When I used Noel, I'd do j.4D in the corner after knockdown. If they didn't block it, there's 4.5k health. If they did block it, I'd do d.5C d.6C d.5C d.6C Spring Raid. It's 4 primers right there as a blockstring. If they barriered the Spring Raid or still have primers left, I'd just RC and do a j.4D lol

So many silly things she could do.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

CS2 Noel is/was annoying.

Smooth Criminal

 

[LivewiresXe]

Noel is/was awesome

Smooth Criminal

I couldn't resist.

 

[Crusayer]

CS2 Noel is/was annoying.

Smooth Criminal

Word.

One reason why I always focused on non-drive stuff as Noel Lol. Stagger normals all day felt more fun.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Word.

One reason why I always focused on non-drive stuff as Noel Lol. Stagger normals all day felt more fun.

I have to say the non-Drive starter combos are just so much more fun anyway. And well, it's always made me feel like I have more freedom.