The blade of two fates - Marth/Lucina guide

EternalFlame · Oct 10, 2014

Greetings everyone. As I am looking for players to help me learn the competitive scene as best as possible, I want to see if what I had come up with will be of any help to Marth/Lucina players like myself. I'll appreciate any feedback I can get on these ideas (which, for the record, I had posted this elsewhere first, but there seems to be a good amount of active Marth players here to warrant a second posting xD). Some of these have carried over from previous smash games, so do keep that in mind. If there are other techniques around, do let me know and I can add it to the main post with credits and all that. Anyways, let's get started.

To cut the long story short, I'm looking into ways that Marth can push his potential in terms of set ups and possibly combos. Slowly but surely, Marth's current meta is taking form (though honestly not that different from his previous iterations it seems, just different tools and such). Now that this guide is at a very good point, I felt it was time to start branching out towards the Lucina community with this (as I have seen, alot of it applies to them too). With everyone's help, I'm sure we will find out exactly what makes Marth and Lucina tic for this new iteration of smash and push this character forward.

Note that some of these have been present in previous iterations in smash, but they've been divided up into subsections so you can read what you don't know about.

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UPDATE (24/11/2014):

Forgot to enter this earlier, but the guide has been moved to the new guide post above this one. So all future updates will be on that post. Please use this link to get there:
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.89/

And this link is for discussions on the guide:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.379525/

Older updates below:

UPDATE (11/10/2014):
Abbreviations have been added, more on SH DB in strategy section have been added, as well as some info on ground DB. Also, minor additions and credits given to those suggestions people have put in.

UPDATE (10/10/2014):
short hops added to strategy section. As well as the link to the foxtrotting, perfect pivot, etc post has been put in.

UPDATE (12/10/2014):
New off stage subsection added to the re-termed Air Dancing Blades (which includes a setup to Spike), as well as a new strategy called Fair Assault added.

UPDATE (13/10/2014):
Added Emblem Lord's guide on Marth's translation to Smash 4 and other helpful tips as a link above. Also updated Fair Assault in the strategy section below.

UPDATE (15/10/2014):
Added a new subsection called DB Up B setup, as well as added a new section called putting everything together. The latter will talk about the strings I follow with Marth, as to perhaps give some ideas to you guys on what to use and where.

UPDATE (17/10/2014):
Small update on DB Up B setup, SH DB, and putting everything together.

UPDATE (18/10/2014):
New combos for the SH DB (check Uair and Dolphin Slash). Also added info on DB Up B setup. Also another main section added for videos that display some (if not all) of the stuff seen here.

UPDATE (19/10/2014):
added Dodge cancels to the strategy section, thanks to CT_DeLux and res0smash for the discovery

UPDATE (24/10/2014):
Out of shield options added to strategy section, as well as some minor updates to Fair setup, SH DB strategy, down throw setup/combo, and the dodge cancelling subsections. Also a new section has been added to the beginning, called "the Basics". This post is becoming more of a guide at this point, so I figured to go over the basics from a beginner Marth's perspective. Please note that some of the stuff from the strategy section has been moved here due to it's general application purposes. Also, it is not fully completed, and will update again when it is finished.

UPDATE (25/10/2014):
At long last (not really much of a wait was it?) the basics section has been completed. Hopefully this will help all beginner Marths (from a beginner Marth's perspective) on what to do and where. Will be adding basic tactics subsection soon, so look forward to that. Either that, or just more added to the strategy section, since I plan to do an edgeguard subsection soon.

UPDATE (2/11/2014):
Now that school life is getting more busy, finding time to edit and add will be limited. But that aside, Dash Assault has been added to the Basics section, and DB Up Setup has been changed to simply the DB setup, along with some added content to that subsection. Also throws has been added to Basics section.

UPDATE (4/11/2014):
Small formatting change, with larger spoilers encompassing the smaller spoilers within each section, like that of the basics section. The section titles have been enlargened, spaced out a bit more, as well as recoloured to make it easier to see from the walls of text.

UPDATE (10/11/2014):
The setups/combo's section has been edited to make the information more consice. A new followup has been added to the onstage A DB subsection (special thanks to Senshu for finding this), and the A DB subsection in general has spoilers added within to divide it further for easier reading. Also, edgeguarding and recovery options have been added to the strategy section.

UPDATE (15/11/2014):
Big news! Now I will be uploading videos that will show gameplay of the stuff seen here. Already got two videos up in a playlist for my "new style" Marth against old school Marths. Please do check em out if you want a visual representation of the stuff talked about in this guide.

UPDATE (20/11/2014):
New additions to the NAir/UAir combo section, as well as the Dthrow combo section have been posted. New videos scheduled to be uploaded by this Saturday (22/11/2014)

UPDATE (21/11/2014):
The SH DB loop has been further explained in the Nair/Uair combo and SH DB sections. Additions to the DB setup have also been put in. I have 2 new videos for Marth up on YT thats more recent (just before the 1.04 patch actually). Also attack strings updated to reflect recent discoveries, particularly with the SH DB loop. Special thanks again to Senshu and Raiden_Kage with their help with the recent discoveries

UPDATE (22/11/2014):
Additions to the NAir/UAir combo section has been put up, thanks to Crawfish for catching one other followups to the UAir. Also, I will be editing the guide with Lucina players in mind as well, and hopefully it will be of help to them too. A new subsection under Basics is being planned to reflect this, and alot of the main post will be edited as well over the course of the next couple of weeks. I also realized that I am yet to put in the Fthrow setup in here, so I will do that as soon as I am able.

UPDATE (23/11/2014):
We now have a new section tilted "General MU pointers" to address common problems Marth players (or even general Smash players) may be going through. Please feel free to post questions or answers to the problems so we can all learn to deal with it using all of the tools at our disposal. I've only got one on there for now, but I'll continue to write as I get more time to do so

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Section 1: The Basics
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For those looking for understanding on the basics of Marth, this will be the place to read on it (or Emblem Lord's guide xD). Remember that knowing the setup tricks are only part of the deal; you will still need the basic principles of Marth, which is proper spacing and tipping. Emblem Lord's guide outlines how old school Marth translates into Smash 4. Since I got no objections to putting the link here, I'll place it here for your convenience:

http://smashboards.com/threads/prom...h-lucina-strategy-notes.370731/#post-17771690

As for this section, I will be writing this section from a beginner Marth's point of view, so hopefully those looking to understand a bit more on the neutral game of Marth/Lucina can learn a thing or two. This section will start with the individual move analysis, then will go into other advanced techniques that applies to all characters (out of shield options, running up Smash, pivoting, etc). This basics section is also assuming you're familiar enough with standard fare fighting game terms to keep with the topics being discussed (though feel free to ask questions if any arise.
Those of you who know this already can skip to the next sections for the more advanced stuff xD Special thanks again to Emblem Lord, Kanjo, Leon_Magunus, Hukster, Senshu, Kratos, Raiden_Kage and everyone else for all the matches and info that helped me understand more for the basics of Marth. Without further ado, let's get started:

Marth, as we all know, is a spacing type character who herald from Melee (as his first smash appearance) as one that could also pressure hard due to his speed and range. To space with Marth follows that a player tries their best to keep their opponent at a sword's length away as much as possible. If done very well, you can initiate in what is known as a tipper, which adds additional damage and knockback to Marth's moveset. Now it is possible for Marth to get up close and personal, but you will need to learn how to work with the lower knockback and damage. That is gone into after this section, so don't need to worry about it for now.

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Sub Section 1: Attacks
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Marth is no longer as abusable as he once was (Fair walls or chain grabs), but his basic principles still hold up well. But again, this is for beginner Marths, so I will talk about each move assuming you're not entirely sure what they are used for:

ground A attacks
ground A attacks are typically used for purely spacing purposes. You general aim with these is to pressure your opponents with your speed and range, especially when edge guarding. All of your tilts are great for keeping your opponent worried when they are at the ledge, due simply to how much of their options you cover. Dtilts are for those who recover at the ledge or short hop onto the ledge, while Ftilts, Utilts, Fsmashes are ideal for any other recovery options. You are relying on your range to beat out opponents, even if they trade or clash, as long as you stay outside of their ledge poking range as much as possible.

1) Neutral

The neutral A and it's two quick but light swings make for a decent anti air. It also helps with stopping some opponents when they try to run at you, but ideally you want to avoid using this move at all. It can be easily punished via block to another attack (usually grab). Your safest bet is to use it when you reset your opponent from an air attack or hit as close to the tip as possible to keep yourself safe. Otherwise, avoid usage of this move.

2) Forward Tilt (Ftilt)

The Ftilt functions as another anti air, but with a bit more force behind it. Unlike Neutral A, it comes with additional damage, knockback, and block stun from hitting with the tip. This comes at the price of having more commitment when you throw out the move. Being careful on how you use this, as well as spacing properly is important for this move. Too close and you won't knock them far enough to not be punished for it until higher percentages (around 60% and higher). This move can also kill when tipped at high percentage around 120%, so this option is one worth practicing.

3) Up Tilt (Utilt)

The Utilt, like the two above, is a great anti air option. Utilt and Ftilt share very similar properties except for the key difference that it functions as a setup. A setup means that if used correctly, it can lead into another attack with a chance of your opponent being able to get out. Utilt is typically followed up with another Utilt, due to how it hits the opponent above Marth (and how they may vector), but once at higher percents, this functions more as a single hitting anti air move. Tipping again makes this a possible kill move, and it is also quite abusable against opponents who are on a platform above you (places like Battlefield are ideal).

4) Down Tilt (Dtilt)

Probably one of Marth's strongest spacing tools is the Dtilt. For aiming at the feet, its reach and speed make it a very safe punishing move against your opponents. The name of the game is usually spacing, so keeping your opponent from trying anything with too much commitment will usually end with a dtilt to the foot. It follows the principle that it should be used to interrupt your opponent's attack as soon as possible, so rely on that speed and reach to stop opponents from randomly throwing out attacks. This also functions as a setup for followup attacks, but that's covered in the next section xD

5) Forward Smash (Fsmash)

The Fsmash is your first resort killing move for Marth. It's great reach both infront and slightly overhead makes this move overshadow the other smash moves by a longshot. Of course, this sort of move comes with committment, so it can't be just thrown wherever you feel like it. You will want to rely on the range and speed to wall your opponents out, and if you can get the tip, the blockstun or knockback will keep you safe. Ideally you use your range to your advantage, especially when edgeguarding. Let me stress again that this will likely be your first resort for killing, as I will explain for the other two Smashes why they are not as ideal.

6) Up Smash (Usmash)

The Usmash is rather interesting, as it pulls your opponent from both sides of you into your blade that you point straight up. You would think that this was incredibly useful, and it is to an extent, but there are weaknesses to this move as well. The commitment is probably the highest of all three smashes, the pull in hitboxes are rather small (as expected of an Usmash), and you are only hitting one percise point with your blade. Usmashes tend to get punished hard, so this should only be used sparingly (Utilt/Ftilt/Neutral A is typically better for anti airs).

There are pluses with using this move though. When you pair this with the DACUS ability, it can be used to catch people off guard (DACUS will be discussed in sub section 2). Because the blade is aimed straight up, it can hit targets at a very safe distance from any counter based moves. Since a good number of the cast have a counter, it makes for a good mindgame if they are directly above you.

7) Down Smash (Dsmash)

The Dsmash functions like you would expect it to; hit infront then hit behind. To be honest, I rarely if ever use this move, so my knowledge on it is a bit limited. But with that said, it gives decent range and hits where it should, but commitment makes this move very risky and almost never used. Your chances of tipping with it are also slim (unless you practice your spacing with it), but due to how Usmash and Fsmash works, you're more likely to use those instead.

8) Dash Assault (Dash attack)

Special thanks to Tsukihi Araragi for reminding me to do this. Almost missed this one if not for the reminder xD Anyways, Marth's running attack is one that is not too oftenly used personally, but its properties are worth talking about. When using this attack, Marth slides with a sword swing infront and slightly above him, which can make for another anti air of sorts. According to Emblem Lord's guide, this has transendence (i.e. higher priority over other moves), and is more likely to hit than trade. That said, This should be used when you know your opponent will try to roll away or retaliate via air attacks that your sword can outrange. The tipper version of the hit comes with standard fare stuff; it can't kill, but it can sure knock opponents well enough away to keep the spacing game going.

air A attacks (airs)
Here is where Marth excels; fighting with air attacks. Marth has both the speed and the range to make this approach one of his most viable and most deadly. Most, if not all Marths will go on the offensive using these attacks.

1) Neutral Air (Nair)

Nairs are one of Marth's many great air moves that lets him space with ease. The move comprises of three hits; the first infront with a light stun, second behind Marth with a slight knockback property, then the finishing swing back infront to knock your opponent away. This is also one of the two moves that has the least landing lag, so feel free to throw it out often. Knowing this is vital towards how this move is used, as it allows for not only spacing, but combo ability. This is gone into more detail in the setup/combo section, so check it out if you're curious. Short Hopping in combination with this move and spacing make this once of Marth's safer approaches.

2) Forward Air (Fair)

Fairs are Marth's second most used air approach tool, as it covers the best amount of space infront of you. Keep in mind that it does come with a decent amount of landing lag, so you need to make sure to use this at the start of your jump, and not when you're about to land if you can help it. Full Hops (FH) or Short Hops (SH) can both be used with Fairs with relative safety, as long as you back off when you know you're in trouble. It is also one of your main tools for gimping opponents off stage from the amount of knockback it has. Tipping with this only makes it have more kill potential than normal, so embrace using this move when you can. But heed that warning about it's commitment, as there is too much to double jump out of it into another unless it were a FH (but it does have enough time to go into your B attacks, which is covered in the Fair Assult subsection under strategies).

3) Up Air (Uair)

Uairs are typically used against opponents above you, and have a great hitbox for doing just that. This tool also has the least amount of recovery like Nairs, so this one is also safe to throw out when the situation presents itself. Because of it's small recovery, this one also combos like Nair, though much better at early percents 45% and lower. It can also function as a combo ender in the Short Hop Dancing Blades (SH DB), but check the actual section for more details for that. When the Uair clashes too, it is relatively safe, so use it if you think your opponent will try to spike, and hopefully it will clash like how it has for me on occassion.

4) Down Air(Dair)

Dairs are your spikes, as well as a general spacing tool when your opponent least expects it. The hitbox starts from infront and goes behind, so keep that in mind. This also has a lot of landing lag like Fairs, so this move is not used often (especially when your opponents can read it). In order to spike with this, the target must not only be below you, but must also be tipped (credits to InfinityCollision on clarification on where to hit). Spiking can be quite satisfying, but even if you miss, the space it covers still makes it a hard move to recover from if your opponents don't see it coming. You still have the opportunity to Meteor smash your opponent if they are just generally below you when you throw out the attack, so keep that in mind.

Spiking/Meteor smashing can also function as a combo started (will detail that soon enough), but its a high risk, high reward sort of starter. Another trick worth mentioning is the fact that you can reduce some of the landing lag by fast falling as you perform the attack. The game will register the fast falling landing lag over the Dairs, which makes it slightly safer to use.

5) Back Air (Bair)

Bairs function like your Fairs, where it is used to go on the offensive. Due to the way the sword is swong, you can use this at the start of a full hop to get a good range for walling out opponents (credits to Ken on his Melee Marth guide in regards to that). The landing lag typically isn't too bad compared to Fairs, but it can still be punished, so use it at the beginning of your jumps, and not at the end if it can be helped.

B attacks
Now time to cover all of Marth's special attacks and the kinds of properties they hold. In this iteration specifically, I find myself using them much more than before, so hopefully this will be of some help to you guys.
1) Shield Breaker/SB (Neutral B)

SB's have recieved a very useful buff since its original appearance, but for now, we'll go over its basic uses. SB does as the name states - break shields. When your opponent doesn't perfect guard it and regularly guards, it takes off a great amount of the shield. This is a great tool to pressure opponents that either block too much or don't expect the kind of reach it has. Of course if you tip with it, the effect is greatly increased along its greater damage and knockback if unblocked. When on a ledge, you can also fast fall, double jump, then poke those on stage with this as a means to get back on or just to poke them and retreat to the ledge again.

The range of it is great, but it has an even better application in the air. The buff on SB allows a brief push forward when in the air, and can push a great amount forward. Now with this buff, the true reach of the attack extends a bit more, and can be quite decieving to those not in the know. This also means that Marth can recover great distances like Ike horizontally. It can be used to approach or be defensive with it, though do be careful of the commitment that comes with it's usage.

This move can be thrown in the opposite direction that a character is facing both in the air and on the ground. On the ground, this is done by first entering the SB move, then quickly tap the opposite direction to change where the attack is thrown (this is known as reverse B). When in the air, the opposite is done, where the direction you want to throw the attack is tapped first, then once the circle pad goes back to the center or neutral position, enter the SB move. The mind games this allows for makes any player feel ansy about excessive blocking. Mix it up with various charge times, and the SB will become a favorite in the tools at your disposal.

1) Dancing Blades/DB (Side B)

DB has gotten a debuff since its initial appearance, but personally I've found it as one of my best tools with Marth (which are explained more in the setup/combo section). DB is your main combo tool as Marth, and also one means of a good number of setups. The attack can be altered via tapping either up or down on the circle pad, just like before. Which version you use is all dependent on how you hit your target, as some could be hit too high or too far to follow up (use the Up B and Down B respectfully for those cases). DB comes with its commitment on the ground, but it should be used as punishes or trying to outprioritizing your opponent's attacks.

The air version is about what you would expect out of it; you cancel your vertical momentum a bit, then fall down at normal speed with your attack as you continue. Like before, keep an eye on where your opponent goes, and change the attacks to follow after them (though you're not likely to be able to hit them with all of the attacks of the DB, so keep that in mind). Remember as well that the direction can easily be changed through tapping the other direction and performing the DB that way. This sounds simplistic, but this is a great option for misleading your opponents when you're in the air. You're likely to use this if you practice the Fair Assult tactic as mentioned in the strategies section below.

One final thing to note is which attacks have the least recovery out of them. The ground version is least committed after the second swing (Side B or Up B is generally the same), so if you wait just enough, you can act into something else out of it. The air version, surprizingly enough is less committed after the first swing, and is key for the SH DB setup (again, in the setup/combo section).

1) Dolphin Slash (Up B)

Dolphin Slash is Marth's primary means of recovery, and probably one of his fastest attacks he has. It is mostly a vertical recovery (which has been boosted since its previous iterations), with typically a high priority especially at the starting frames (keep in mind, this can be used as an out of shield option, but not against every attack like some multihit moves). At low percents, this move is usually not safe to hit with unless you hit with the tip or hit the target at the end of your attack. But at higher percents, it is a scary option that can be used offensively and defensively. That being said, edgeguarders will learn to fear this move, as you can use it to poke from under the stage, lip spike targets hanging on the ledge with no invincibility, and it generally covers a wide range for protection purposes. One important thing to note when using this is that you can fast fall once the attack is over, so make use of this if you wiff with it.

1) Counter (Down B)

The counter move functions as it always has, so there is not much to say in terms of changes. The counter has a small window that if hit during it, will allow Marth to be briefly invincible and retaliate. Of course, there is commitment to using this move, so your timing needs to be spot on if you plan to use it. One ideal moment to use it is against opponents that are recovering or you are recovering yourself. Your opponent's recovery may come with a physical attack alongside it, so typically they are also counterable (extremely effective on Little Mac, poor guy). When recovering yourself, your opponent could try to gimp you (to hit your opponent in the air while they are trying to recover), so counter is one option to keep yourself safe. When on the ledge too, you can use this to fake out your opponents as Marth's counter is safe even if trigger offstage near the ledge (you'll be able to Dolphin Slash back up anywho).

Throws
Throws are standard fare for all characters, with very similar applications across the board. Marth's throws in this smash is not as abusable as it once was, but since this is focused on beginner Marths, I'll skip over talking about those tactics, since those won't help you here. A general practice all Marths should get into is pounding the grabbed target a few times before throwing (works best at higher percents). At around 60% is the safest bet of throwing in 1 - 3 pounds before throwing the target, and only gets better as it goes higher. Though if you've played other characters, this applies to all of them just as much as Marth.
1) Forward Throw

Here is one of your two setup throws that you will use with Marth. Due to how short the recovery is from performing this, you will have enough time against targets of low percents to hit them (typically Fair or your Short Hop Dancing Blades if you want to get more technical). Now keep in mind that this is not a true combo of any sort, but it positions them ideally for a followup. Marth specializes on spacing, so getting the target offstage is typically ideal with this throw so you can immediately take control.

2) Down Throw

The second of your two setup throws, Down Throw forces the target to bounce off the ground, so they do not go too far up. At early percents, there is the assured combo of Bair, Nair, or Uair, though you can read more on this in the setup and combos section. Like Forward throw, this one does not have much recovery after throwing, so make good use of it when you can. Once I cover a section on platform based combos, then I'll return to the down throw as part of the setup. So look forward to that once I get to it xD

3) Back Throw

The primary function for the Back Throw is slightly better knockback than Forward Throw, but with more recovery at the end. Like Forward Throw, you will use this mostly to get your opponents off stage, but don't expect to follow up as well as Forward Throw. Unfortunately, this doesn't kill as well as other character's Back Throw, but as long as you use it for the purpose said above, then you'll get the stock by your other tools (which will be covered in the edgeguarding section when it's finished).

4) Up Throw

To be honest, there will be little reason to ever use your upthrow except perhaps in a setup involving platforms. But due to the ending recovery and how much more efficient Down Throw is, you're better off ignoring it altogether.

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Sub Section 2: Other Options
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This will cover the other options that are open to not just Marth, but to all characters. These moves will build the principles of advanced play, and hopefully lead to a better mastery for your characters.

1) Out of Shield options

Now this has carried over from previous iterations of Smash (and some have listed some of the options somewhere I imagine), but if you're new to competitive play like I am, this may be something worth discussing - particularly pertaining to Marth/Lucina.

The techniques you should remember are listed below:

a) Perfect shielding

This one I believe has been in since Melee, but let's just go over what it is generally for. Perfect shielding or power shielding is when you block on the frames just before an attack hits you, which allows quick recovery out of the block to retaliate. This one I personally struggle with using, but from my observations it is a tool truly worth practicing. Think of it as the equivalent of parrying, where you can almost freely act into any other attack out of it. Here are your options as Marth when you've perfect shielded:

I) dtilt (this can lead into the setup, but this is the safest option in case you miss)

II) grab (a good option against air attacks if they land near you)

III) Fsmash (if the opportunity presents itself like a long commitment move, this will deal the best damage)

IV) DB/DB Up B setup (Standard fare stuff here, you know what to do and it can outprioritize certain attacks

V) Utilt/Ftilt (In the case your opponent tries to back off or is floaty when you perfect shield the attack)

This is the high risk, high reward approach that as a beginner will happen more on accident then on purpose. But this is something that should be practiced more, as high level play relies on this and spot dodging quite a bit.

b) Jump cancel

This one I am not entirely sure where it started, but I can tell you that this is a great option when you don't get the perfect shields. It is as the name suggests, where after blocking, you can cancel the recovery via jumping. Against certain multihit moves (like Pit's Fair), it seems to grant invincibility for a brief moment after blocking, so you can be a bit brave and use whatever Air based attacks fit your preference. Please see the Basics section that will be added soon to go over the basics of Marth for more details, or see Emblem Lord's guide as listed above).

c) Dash cancelling shielding

I believe this is a new option to Smash, and one that I rather like using myself. By holding the direction you are moving towards then press the block button, you are able to go into your shield without having to come to a complete stop before going into a shield. This allows a safer approach for any character really, and does give some choice opportunities to do Jump cancels or Perfect shieldings.

2) short hop

Borrowed from Gawain who suggested the idea, short hops are another means to enter the Uair/Nair combo. By doing a couple of empty hops, you bait your opponent into a point where you're able to approach and use the said combo. Keep in mind that it comes with its own risks, so you need to pick a good time to go in and do this. Use Fairs, SH DBs, and SH SBs to keep your opponents on their toes, and you may just spot an opportunity to punish. The best possible punish I would think is after knocking an opponent to the ground, run up to them to make them believe you try to dash attack so they use a get up attack. On that note, you should be able to short hop over it and punish them accordingly.

But do keep in mind of where you hit, as tippers may send your opponent to high or leave you stunned for too long, and it can be punished hard if you're not close enough, whiff or get thrown off on the timing by tipping them. I'll still have to test this myself, but if it works for C.Falcon and Diddy, it should still work for us xD

3) Pivoting

Pivoting is the process by which a character turns around when moving one way and performs an action. There are 3 options that can be used out of Pivoting:

a) Ftilts

Pivot Ftilts are what is the easiest to get, as all you do is perform an A attack just as you make your character turn around. It reduces the turn around recovery time and also makes this a great defensive tactic due to how its an anti air with great reach. You're also in the process of moving too, which helps with spacing and keeping your opponent from getting too close to you.

b) Fsmashes

Pivot Fsmashes are something even I am yet to figure out how to do effectively (so I'll update this particular subsection at a later date for this). But It functions as the Pivot Ftilt does at being a defensive manouver. This can also be used as a mixup or tech chase option like the one above, so once you can learn to use this on the 3DS, it'll be a great tool (or just wait for the WiiU version or get the converter for the 3DS you c-stickers xD).

c) Grabbing.

Pivot grabbing allows to grab targets you run past with a greater grab reach than normal. Now for 3DS users, what I typically do for this is I tap the grab button with the direction I want to grab to ensure that the grab will come through instead of just a tilt. This follows suit with all the other pivots in their functions, as it adds another means of getting into your opponent's head with it. The grab reach too will be benefitial towards punishing targets that try to rush you down. It particularly helps that Marth's down throw and forward throw setup into pressure/combo tactics, so learn to make use of this when an opportunity presents itself.

4) Short dashes/foxtrotting

Here's something that may be more my personal playstyle, but here's a small tidbit for how I play Marth. Running is good and all, but I noticed if I only do short dashes, I can slowly approach and fsmash when I need to. It's simply just taping the circle pad forward once then wait. Waiting 1 second (approximate) allows enough time for Marth to return into Neutral stance. But anytime before that, it looks like Marth is coming to a stop. You could wait till you return to neutral and fsmash, or you can mess with opponents a bit and go into a dashing attack that gives slightly more range. Running usually forces you to either dash attack or short hop into something; a staple from what I have seen of Smash. But by doing this short dash strategy, its sort of me following what some people said about Marth being more ground based instead of air based.

Turns out I was right on track, as now we have what has been deemed as fox trotting as of Oct 8, 2014. Here's the link for those interested.
http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/

This link also covers perfect pivoting and such, which will be essential for competitive play

5) Running Up Smash

This option allows for characters to go out of a dash into an Up Smash. This is typically done by, well, quickly entering the Up Smash command while running/foxtrotting. Marth's Up Smash is situational in its usage, as mentioned earlier, so you will need to carefully pick your times of when and where to use it. Please read its subsection above for more details on Up Smash usage.

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Section 2: Setups and Combos
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Here's where things get interesting (hopefully xD). This will cover all of the setups and potential combos Marth has at his disposal. Credit is given where credit is due, but where there are none, assume that I found this out on my own without prior knowledge of anyone before me doing it.

1) dtilt setup

Marth's dtilt is quite the excellent spacing tool, but it also seems to work rather well at low percents as a set up to another attack. I believe this carried over from previous iterations, but either way the recap ought to help. When the opponent is close to Marth and is around 0 - 40% (also dependent on the opponents weight), Marth has just enough time and space to either use:

a) Dancing Blades (highest damage output, may have to finish with side b or up, or enter the DB setup

b) short dash and grab (mind game to any opponent who likes to block)

c) dtilt (safest approach in case the opponent rolls behind)

d) Shield breaker (most commitment, it relies on your opponent to block, and haven't really tested this approach as yet)

The reason this (and most of the other techniques listed here) are called a setup is simply due to that opponents can get out of it. But this becomes a guessing game as to which will be best viable. You're capitalizing on your opponent's hesitation to followup well. Also be weary of those who try to attack or grab after they land, as they can beat you to the grab if they know they can. Either way, you are relying on outspeeding and out ranging your opponents as Marth, so as long as you know where to mix things up, this setup will not be easily punished. Not to mention that it builds off the basic principle that you interrupt your opponents with the dtilt, which you will find yourself using more often as you practice it.

2) fair setup (?)

No, no... it's not the old fair Marth once called his, but it doesn't make it a bad move to use either. Asides from its usual spot of spacing, it also can lead into another attack at around 30 - 50%. When it is used on a standing target, it can hard knock them to the ground. The typical means of doing this is to ensure that you keep forward momentum when you attack with Fair, letting you land in the position you need to be in for the followup. If the opponent doesn't tech out, they bounce off the ground, which will give enough time to either:

a) fsmash (forward recovery rolls may put you at risk if you throw it out too early)

b) complete dancing blades (potentially does more damage, sort of carried over from Brawl)

c) ftilt/dtilt (safer than the first two options, pivoting may also make this interesting)

d) DB setup (see DB setup for followup options)

Though know that this setup will depend on the weight of the opponent. Probably around humanoid weight (link, marth, etc) and up. Anyone lighter than that, its very likely not going to work or at least getting in position for it will be more difficult. Either way, I can say it works rather well from personal experience.

3) nair/uair combo

Ever since the game was shown off at E3, I wanted to think hard on how to do the above setup. Since knowing Fair seemed like it wasn't going to work, it came down to uair or nair. Both of them seemed to not have much landing lag, but the question came down to which of them will be best suited to hit with against grounded opponents. This will come down to personal preference, but I'll speak on both of them regardless.

moving onto the Nair version itself, it relies on using the first hit possible from the nair and not the second. This makes it quite hard to hit with mind you, but with Marth's other air options, the mindgame can be played quite well. Once you can land that first hit, you can follow up to any of these options:

a) grab (good to go into another setup)

b) ftilt (not as safe and may rely on higher damage percentage to perform, but its an option)

c) dancing blades (here it becomes more a setup).

d) Fsmash/Usmash (really difficult to make truly connect, even with SH DB, credit to Hilmbleep for this one)

e) Utilt (thanks to Raiden Kage for finding this, especially effective against floatier characters or those trying to escape by jumping)

f) Dtilt (thanks to Raiden Kage for the inspiration, as well as later execution of this followup, works about as you'd expect)

g) SH DB loop (It works on medium to tall characters, and this is used to anticipate any attempts to jump to escape, though the UAir version is slightly safer depending on the target)

h) jab (relatively a safe followup

Since its hitting with only the first hitbox of the nair, the height the opponent is launched is relatively short. In uair's case, you need to begin the hitbox near the ground to give enough time to continue into another attack. The two means of getting the hit in with Uair is by either short hopping into it, or entering via air dancing blade setup.

Moving on, you have the following options after landing the uair:

a) utilt (safest and common followup)

b) side smash or running up smash (Combos at around 40%)

c) jump and air dancing blades (which actually does combo off of uair, though that may depend on the weight of the opponent).

d) ground dancing blades (which also combos, but at lower percents and the timing to get it to combo is strict and character specific)

e) grab (works better at lower percents, though you're just better off using Nair for this combo for less commitment)

f) SH DB loop (Thanks to Senshu for figuring this base loop out for future reference. This relies on catching your opponent right out of the UAir, and this will be your most common starter for the loop. Try to stay as verticle as possible when doing this)

g) Dtilt (From this, it is a setup in itself to continue, thanks to Crawfish for catching it)

h) Jab (From this, it may be possible to run and grab the target by resetting them, otherwise you can jab again to keep them away. A relatively safe option)

Having initially been suggested by a user by the name of Kanjo on using uair to setup to something, I gave it preliminary tests and thought it to be not usable by Marth due to the speed difference and the timing for the uair to work. But after a while, I saw its merits and it will be something I as well will have to practice.

4) down throw setup/combo

Thanks to Bengals, he told me that it does actually combo. But it can be used to play more mind games on your opponents from this setup. When the throw is performed, it places the opponent above and slightly behind Marth. At lower percents (0 - 40%), you have the following options:

a) uair/nair (All of these can combo, need confirmation on the nair though, but Uair is the most commonly used)

b) dancing blades (completing the combo when your opponent dodges immediately traps them into whatever combo you want to use).

c) Dolphin Slash (possible more for high percents, only safe if hitting with the tip then fast fall)

d) Bair (similar to Uair/Nair, but thanks to Kanjo and Raiden Kage, it is possible to follow up with a falling FAir. This also opens up to the possibility of a DB as well, but more testing will be done regarding this)

Just to talk on the second option a bit more, staying vertical when using it is ideal for the trap. Any bit of momentum will push Marth too far forward/away to properly followup, so keep that in mind. Should the DB hit, you can get about 3 hits which has a 1 - 3% damage higher than the Uair/Bair/Nair followups, but your best payoff is if they fall for the trap. If they don't go for the Uair/Bair/Nairs.

5) Air dancing blades (A DB)

Here's something interesting I found when messing around with dancing blades in the air. When you use the first swing, there is a little less recovery than when you perform the second swing onwards. So from this brief stall in the air, it can easily go into Fair, Nair, Bair, Uair, any of the B specials, and can even double jump to other mixups. Keep in mind that the hitbox is only good against opponents of humaniod height or opponents that try to go in the air, but you could use it for intimidation purposes too. Another point of importance is percentage, as it is preferable that your opponent has taken a bit of damage before performing some of the followups (when you know you've hit with the initial DB that is). It isn't safe to proceed if your opponent is continuously blocking, so know when to pull back. But once the initial hit has landed, it is rather difficult to get out (unless they're floaty or fast fallers like Shiek).

Thanks to the question posed by Senshu, I realized that there's more to the air dancing blades than how I had been using it initially. Now to cover all of it, I will divide this into two subsections:

On stage:
Remember the ideal position for this to work is off of a SH for any of the followups. Based on where you hit with the blade will not only determine hitstun, but also what options you have for followups. It is either you hit with the tip that has extended stun but limited followups, or with the rest of the sword, which has the most followups but has a risk of being hit during it.

Knowing when to use each followup is also important, so here is how I use them:

a) Fair - when knockback against the opponent is needed or defense against opponents that dash attack after the initial slash

b) Nair - combo setup to grab, also possible to go into an Fsmash (credit to Hilmbleep again for figuring this out)

c) Bair - punish opponents that are behind you and possibly below you.

d) Uair - combo startup and defensive against aerial approaches (see nair/uair section above for combo details). At around 130% you are able to combo from the SH DB into Uair, and well positioned can lead to a tipper as well. Once the target goes too high for you to hit by a Uair alone, the stun should be enough to go into a double jump Uair and it still counts as a combo.

Another great thing to note about this is at early percents, you can go into another A DB > Uair. This was discovered by Senshu, and currently him and I are gonna be testing to see how well it works against human opponents. So I'll post the findings once more testing is done.

e) continuing dancing blade - if the first strike hits, then go for the up b version to keep the chain going and prevent punish. This also will punish your opponent for trying to run in after the initial swing if you delay the timing just right.

f) second dancing blade - this can be used either in front or behind you to capitalize on hesitation on your opponents part

g) shield breaker - remember to use the air version of changing the direction of this attack, and of course, use it for spacing. Can also be used to hard read counters

h) counter - know when your opponent will try to exploit the brief opening between the attacks and make em pay

i) Dolphin Slash - really risky and would advice against using it unless you know it will hit. Advisable to use as a combo after 130%, similar to Uair

j) double jump - if it seems too risky to continue, back off with this. You can also add to this a second DB to cancel your vertical momentum and go into one of the options above once more.

k) SH DB loop - Decided to put it here once more just to explain the process of doing this. Once you hit with a NAir or UAir, your opponent will only have a few seconds to react. If they don't see it coming and are tall enough, you can short hop and do the same string again. At 0% this can be looped up to 3 times before you need to running up Smash or side Smash. Of course, you can loop into other combinations as well, so get experimenting xD

Off stage:
Considering that the DB is sort of like a fair, why not use it to hit targets who are off stage too? One of the initial tests with using this method is that you can sorta do the ken combo with it. From my initial tests, it does not truly link, but it does position your opponent ideally in a spot for you to double jump and spike him. Even if you don't, you still hit the opponent away from you and serve your purposes of keeping them off. But remember the risk you are placing yourself in if you should choose the spike option. Other options like Fair and Uair are much safer.

Now there are two situations you're likely to face where it will be ideal to use this:

I) Overhead towards the ledge:
This is the ideal situation in order for you to go into that Sorta Ken Combo, but starting from the basics, you need to ideally hit from the tip of the DB, as high above your head as possible. This places them at just the right height to be spiked. But here's a general list of options out of hitting with the DB:

a) Double jump Dair: Your Sorta Ken Combo, can be used simply knock opponents away, but there are better options for that

b) Uair: a reset read that has the potential to tip if timed right

c) Fair: Best when your opponent is likely to try and retaliate after the initial hit.

d) Counter: just in case if your opponent can outbeat your swing

Outside of those options, it isn't safe to do any more as you are off the ledge. Should the need arise, just back off and no harm no foul. But knowing that this is an option is good in the case that your opponent doesn't see the weakness of it (which is to either air dodge or fast fall. Granted, you have your Fair/Uair to catch them with a delayed swing if they try going for those options. That's what a setup is all about.

II) Below the stage to the ledge:
Here your options become a bit more limited, as you will be forced to jump with the second hit no matter what you try. It follows the options from the one above, and the timing is a bit strict as you are falling and not canceling momentum with your DB. I believe it may still be possible to go into a spike from here, but as of this moment, I have been unable to successfully do so. Also keep in mind that your Uair will protect you from certain aerials that your opponent may pull in retaliation, but this needs to be tested out more, as I've only saved myself once with this (granted, there was only one who actually tried to hit back xD).

In closing, you should treat it like you would a Fair. After the initial swing, you can react to how your opponent reacts and use whatever seems most appropriate. This makes the Nair to grab combo or the Uair slightly easier to land. However, this approach has it's weaknesses as well, especially when your opponent knows to block fairs often. Should you be blocked, you are best to back off with a double jump. Use more DBs in the air to stall, based on your opponent's reaction times; coming down with a DB isn't too bad either if they don't expect it.

It is a great tool, but if abused can be seen through. Though I, along with anyone who's willing to test it, will continue to use it till we can make it work well. Till then, take the approach as part of the Marth gameplay, but remember the fundamentals of what makes Marth tic. I'm still in the process of learning it even xD

Also tidbit here, but Hilmbleep also came up with the base concept around the same time I did xD Props to the dude once more for the discovery for SmashBoard's side of things

6) Dancing Blades setup

After messing around with dancing blades some more, I noticed that there was a small window to follow up if using the first up swing that dancing blades provides. After much testing, this techique is ideal against a number of opponents who get easily flustered or are heavy/slow, as they will not have enough time to get out of the next hit fast enough. Now this setup relies on where you hit with the blade of course, and is effective starting from lower percents all the way through. then the following options are open to you:

a) grab/dash to grab (Best at low percents where your opponent gets a tiny lift and you started the DB at near hilt range)

b) dtilt (leads to second setup options, as is safe on block should your opponent get the time to do it)

c) ftilt/fsmash (when the opponent starts getting launched higher in the air and grabbing is not an option)

d) counter (if there are opponents that can throw an attack fast enough and reach far enough to hit you)

e) second DB Up B setup (if your opponent messes up their recovery, this not only punishes, but sets up once more to any of the mixups

f) shield and avoid (if the situation gets too risky, holding shield will prompt you on when you can act out of it and retreat as necessary.)

g) Fair assault (Should your opponet like to escape by jumping, chase them down with a Fair and proect your fall if its a SH Fair)

Another option for you is to use the side B of the second slash, to push your target back a bit. This can also lead to the options above, but Up B is better due to lifting your target off the ground and leaving them a bit helpless if they don't know how to get out. Heavy characters in particular can be hit by this and setup into the Up B version if done right, but like all setups, they can get out and punish if you're not careful.

As suggested by Random4811, the DB can also stop after the third side hit and go into SB specifically. From initial testing, it does not seem too practical due to the timing of the attack (as you're more likely to complete the combo over going into SB) and the time you wait gives substancial amount of time to roll out of the way or perfect shield. Another suggestion recieved from Waldo brought up the idea of using the third swing as the Up B version, then go into an Utilt (which this one suffers from similar issues from the recovery time of its usage). This is not to say that this cannot be used however, as this stresses an important point about DB - learning when to stop. Picking the right times to stop inbetween and following up into something else is the key to fully mastering the DB in combat. Capitalize on your opponent's hesitation by stopping midway through, but don't do it too often that they will get an idea of what to do. Percentage is essential towards making these work, and once I have more time to test them, I will update on the means of making them work (if they are truly viable).

One final note is be very careful not to use this at early percents against fast falling characters and be careful around floaty characters. Fast falling characters can usually land and quickly retaliate before you have a chance to go into another attack (which at that point, you should just go for the third hit and setup or complete DB). As for floaty characters, they can easly move forward and hit you with a fast move out of the initial setup. The best advice at this point is to either tip them with the setup to get better stun, or space the swings so they don't have too much space to act out of it. Frame 1 attacks are also a point to be cautious about, as any that are too close can hit you out of the setup or push you too far away.

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Section 3: Strategies
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This section covers what kinds of moves should be used at what moment. Some of the above setups and moves require some explaining as to when is the most ideal moments. Now these topics are speaking from personal experience, so how they will effect your style of play will be entirely up to you.

1) short hop shield breaker (SH SB)

Thanks to that buff given to the shield breaker, Marth and Lucina pushes a bit forward when performing the shield breaker in the air. Of course, this aids with Marth's recovery from off stage, regardless of the small landing lag it gives. But this also presents Marth with a new means to approach opponents via short hop into shield breaker. Though not often did I see it in Brawl, I liked using this strategy quite a bit, and now it is worlds better thanks to that small buff. That small push forward can play up to opponents looking for means to get closer by blocking. Every bit of chip on the shield helps Marth greatly I find, and now the blade's range is extended in a sense by doing this.

It can be used both defensively and offensively, as even jumping backwards still gives that slight push forward to cancel the momentum. I'm sure not everyone can perfect guard every time an attack is thrown, so using this to break shields is a great option for Marth. Just, be careful not to miss, as the hitbox is narrow. Also for Lucina players, it seems the air shield breaker tactic works best in their hands, as it seems to push her farther in the air (though I could be mistaken). Now since I had posted this elsewhere initially, so I had not seen what Smashboards specifically had to offer on Marth (Not too many Marth's on the forum I'm visiting from xD). But still, I saw Rajing Clue on here who posted something similar, so shoutouts to you dude for seeing the potential in this move xD

One more thing worth mentioning is that Marth can change the direction of his air shield breaker when facing the opposite direction. By that I mean, when you jump, its typically expected that you can only shield break in the direction you are facing. If however, you tilt very slightly in the opposite direction, Marth will perform the air shield breaker in the opposite direction.

Thanks to another user called Chestnaught for bringing in a more efficient method to my attention (didn't realize this was already a thing), but if you flick the circle pad in the opposite direction and wait until it returns to neutral position, you can do the same trick as above. Still is much to learn for me xD

2) short hop dancing blades

From testing this against a few human opponents, it is ideal to mix up between Fair and Dancing blades, as to keep that hesitation there with your opponent. It also makes it hard for your opponent to approach if you mix it up properly. Also thought of this recently, but if your opponent escapes via jumping instead of teching, you can double jump and start Dancing blades once more, or chase them with one of the nairs. Air dancing blades is also a decent way to stall or cut vertical momentum from a jump. But you need to select the times you use it, as opponents can take advantage of that brief moment you are open from the initial recovery. Pick and choose the correct times to use it, and let experience guide you.

As a general principle, know how your opponent plays. I was training last night with a very defensive player (and a good friend at that) who very much liked blocking to punishes. Shoutouts to Hukster, now that I know he has an account here too xD though I should have added this earlier. Anyways xD

The SH DB is a tool of approach and intimidation, but it can be subject to punish if you read the opponent wrong. Should the initial swing miss and your opponent likes to grab punish, try performing the second jump in the air and cancel the momentum with another single DB. Afterwards you can go into a charged shield breaker or Fair/Bair to punish their commitment or simply scare them off. You could from here continue the DB attack instead of SB, so you fall down towards your opponent for a punish. Just remember that you will commit too by doing this. Jumping backwards is also a good choice to keep yourself safe, also keep a SB ready in case they try to approach. That deceiving range comes into play and even by just throwing it out randomly, as long as you're aiming to hit with the tip, it isn't punishable from my experience. Lets just hope that the active hitbox actually remains long enough that an opponent can't just run in and grab after its over xD

If you should hit with the SH DB, it seemed rather difficult for opponents to get out (unless its another Marth/Lucina). Once they're caught in the initial slash, your opponent cannot escape your reach I believe. If they try to jump away, a good called fair should tip them on the way out. If they try to attack back, Uair or a second DB is waiting. If its a counter, a charged SB ought to do the job. Remember that it all depends on how you read your opponent. One mistake and they'll make you pay for it - but that's just part of the joy of using Marth now xD

Also, short opponents are the bane of this tactic, but don't be scared of using it because of that. A wiffed SH DB can be protected by a counter followup or a second DB depending on where your opponent is. But be wary not to overuse this move, as it can be punished via dash attacks or low standing overheads (like Ike's Usmash). Pick your moments and it'll keep your opponents guessing xD

These are only a few examples on what to do. If I type them all, its gonna be a bigger wall of text (and I'm not sure you all want to read all that ^^"). If you guys think otherwise, I can detail the situations I run into with this along with what you guys find.

3) Ground dancing blades

This is probably standard fare Marth stuff at this point, but I figured I'd go over it a bit, based on my usage of it in Smash 4. Some opponents like to hop alot, and sometimes they're able to just beat you out of your Fairs or Bairs. But if they will be like that, a grounded DB is perfect. The reach of the move seems much better on the ground, and running up and performing at least the first two swings tends to intimidate quite well. Now what is also possible is to stop in the middle of it and go into something else, like a counter or just jumping away. The third and fourth hit are what add more commitment I find, and usually your opponent will out of shield roll behind you after the second hit. Now I say second hit, as out of all of the slashes in DB, this second one is the least committed. This should give you just enough time to move should your opponent try to get out of the way and hit/grab you back.

To go over quickly the attack variations of dancing blades, I go with the up b or down b versions. down b is perfect for punishing opponents who spot dodge/dodge in the air, and up b for catching your opponents in the slash. The up b version at lower percentage come with the benefit of placing your opponent in a setup position similar to the down throw setup. You can also ground utilt/ftilt to catch them, grab them when they hesitate, or try to jump after them to scare them off. I'm still in the process of experimentation on this, and I'll update once I have a better idea of what to do from here. Unfortunately Side b has some problems of wiffing due to the knockback and vectoring that can occur, but it can be alleviated through careful stalling between slashes.

Another thing I have noticed is that if you roll backwards as your opponent tries some sort of attack and lands where you were standing, you are at the perfect distance to punish with DB. Done this a few times against that defensive player I mentioned earlier, so I figured it'd be worth mentioning.

4) Fair Assault

As you all know, Fairs were Marth's bread and butter, and still sort of is today (just not as abusable). What started as a discovery for Lucina translated to Marth as well, who I thought could not do this trick.

Basically by SH Fairing, you have just enough time to pull out a SB or DB from it. But to focus on the SB specifically, when you Fair and perform the SB, you carry some of the momentum with you and slide back a bit as you perform the attack. What that means for us is we can punish those who shield our Fairs with relative safety.You can either perform the SH Fair and back off, or perform it and go overhead. If you use the overhead version, use the grounded reverse b tactic (done by pressing b then tapping in the opposite direction to throw the attack that way). By doing this, you keep your opponent away from you, regardless if they block it or dodge it. If the opponent should try to roll past you, you have the DB to catch them from either side. Just as always, you need to read your opponent carefully, as there's only so much this approach can protect you from.

5) Dodge cancel approach

after a recent discovery CT_DeLux and res0smash, the ability to jump air dodge and cancel its recovery is looking to be a great tool for Marth. Now this is another means for Marth to time his Nair and Uairs into a combo situation. Here's the link below describing how the move is done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

Essentially, you do a short hop and air dodge as soon as possible, then perform an attack to cancel the landing lag. After recent testings, it's not the most practical approach in the world, even though it sets up at the right height for your Nairs and Uairs. Unless your opponent is throwing projectiles or is trying to space you by throwing attacks ahead of time, this approach is to be used very sparingly.

6) Edge guarding and Recovery options

Now this isn't anything new in terms of Marth gameplay in general, but I thought it best to talk about this to help people out with edgeguarding as Marth. With Marth's range, you are fully able to punish any recovery option as long as you read them well enough. The ideal position for Marth to stand is just outside of their get up attack range. You're open to any of your tilts and smashes, but the dtilt, fsmash, SB, DB and either utilt or ftilt will be your main options when you stay on the ground. Spacing, once more, is essential to making your opponents fear being on the ledge, as you will outrange and outspeed most recovery options.

Edgeguarding is all about reading your opponent's recovery options, and most of them involve getting up near the edge. Remember your fundamentals and punish with any of the options mentioned above to rack up the damage. Another important note is that if you tip fsmash against opponents that lose their invincibility while hanging on the ledge, it can hit them still. Now this may be on a case by case basis, but keep this option in mind. You can also shield to be safe and just punish when your opponent comes in range. Really, the option you need to watch out for is ledge camping and roll recoveries, as well as getup to shield options. It is at that point where you mix things up a little by using your SB or DB to catch them into a compromising position of being shield pressured or back onto the ledge again.

The next thing is when the roles have been reversed, and now you're at the ledge. Here, you still have your range and speed to properly space out opponents trying to edgeguard you. Outside of the standard options, you can also use SB to effectively poke at opponents onstage. You need to keep opponents away and guessing at your recovery options. Use a certain recovery so many times, then when it seems like they're starting to learn, switch it up. But it goes without saying really.

One more thing is the unique property of SB, which is if it is fully charged in the air, you will be launched farther forward than normal. When offscreen, it is essential to remember you have this option to get back on stage. It can also be used offensively if you've been knocked high in the air and you want to quickly get back in and pressure. Remember that when you do this, the hitframes are only active for the first few bits of the slide, and the rest is recovery. Of course, not everyone can tell when that is, so do your best to use this sparingly if you're using it for offensive tactics.

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Section 4: Attack strings
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Now in this section I will go over the kind of patterns you can follow for putting these skills into use. This is based off my own testings and thoughts, so do give them a try and tell me how they work for you guys. It'll give an idea too of what you can do with them to follow up with your own ideas, so let the experimenting begin!

1) SH DB setup > Nair > Grab and down throw > Uair
2) Fair > DB (preferably the Up B version
3) SH DB setup > Uair > DB/SH DB (Up B version)
4) Fair > DB Up B setup > Ftilt
5) SH DB setup > DB Up B setup > Dtilt setup > ftilt
6) Dtilt setup > DB Up B setup > Grab and forward throw > Fair Assault
7) DB Up B setup > Dtilt > DB Up B setup > Fsmash
8) SH DB > UAir > SH DB > Nair > DThrow > BAir > FAir
9) SH DB > UAir > repeat first two commands 3 times > Running Up Smash
10) SH DB > NAir > DTilt > Running grab
11) SH DB > FAir > Running grab

I will continue to add, remove, and edit this section as I continue to test, so hopefully these will work out for all of us in terms of figuring out what to do.

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Section 5: Video examples
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Here in this section, there will be videos on Marths displaying some of the combos listed above. When I am able to locate someone who can help me record, I will do a video guide for everything seen here; probably split into chunks for each subsection to explain what they all do and how they work.

Gawain's Combo + Tips for Marth
Here's a good video explaining some of the tips and combos for Marth

Old vs New style Marth series
Check this out if you want examples of my playstyle vs veteran Marths/Lucinas

Marth video playlist
This will be just general gameplay footage of my Marth in action. Hopefully this will help you guys out to understand how all the setups and gameplay works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z01999we9jY&list=PLQaWf0mTxT7Irezte8qkXJkX6Ypl7Bc_Q

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Section 6: General MU pointers
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After seeing sections often asking for help on certain match up problems popping up repeatedly, I've decided to now address questions like those and give some general gameplans that could help make it a bit easier for you guys. It will be here I will need feedback from others the most, as I as well am limited in my MU experience (part of why I'm making it a general MU pointers, and not character specific xD). Also, getting questions would be very well welcomed so it will help others going through the same troubles.

Now I will be using the terms throughout this guide assuming that you've already read it, so if there's anything unfamiliar, it should be somewhere above. Whenever not credited to anyone, this will be coming from my own experience, so results may vary xD Anyways, let's get crackin'

1) VS the average projectile spam + roll spam strategy

Marth and Lucina lack any sort of projectile of their own, so obviously this will force them to approach when they face characters like DHD or Samus. The average Projectile spam + roll spam often relies on:

a) Use projectiles that keep you back and stay far away

b) Rolling alot (usually to the opposite end of the field) and rinse and repeat.

Kinda obvious from the name I know xD Regardless for their reason to do so, it will still come down to you to get up close and personal. First addressing the projectiles themselves, the best tool at your disposal is the running shield, or what I called the dash cancel shield. You can try to time it to perfect shield when you use this, but either way just block the projectile and keep running forward. Once the projectile is blocked, you can either continue to rush forward, or cancel the shield stun by jump cancelling it and go for an air attack or empty hop for the sake of it. You may be able to even grab them if you block a move they use point blank, but I'm expecting them to run as you as you're within a sword's length of them. You want them to feel pressure of being unable to just have their way, so they'll start to resort to retreat.

Rolling alot is quite a bad habit for players to have, and it is this you should exploit till they learn better. You want to throw attacks where you expect them to stop, and the window to hit them inbetween rolls is rather narrow. Either way, you have to get use to the timing as best as possible. Remember your FAir assault and SH DB setup especially, as they need to be lulled into a false sense of security and be punished for that mistake. So if you wiff, you still have one attack hidden behind to snag them; you may even want to wiff on purpose just for the pressure. They need to stay cool to keep you away, and if they lose it, mistakes a plenty will be found.

Another important trick is pivot grabbing/tilting, since you can just run past them as they roll away and you can potentially catch them with it. Your DB is best used when you get use to the timing of their exposed frames inbetween rolling, and once you have the timing, you have your DB setup at your disposal to really make their day. Remember your spacing, but keep the pressure going. As long as you give them no room to breathe, you should have no problem dealing with their shinanigans xD

Remember, better projectile users know how to deal with you up close, but that will be an entirely different topic to write on xD But what was talked about here is the principles you need to deal with them all the same.

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If anyone else has some good ideas for combos and such, feel free to post them and I'll update the post. I'm hoping to learn from other Marth players too by doing this, so hopefully this will gather some steam and help press the Marth train forward.

Also, this is my first post technically for Smashboards, so hopefully this isn't too bad of a first impression xD

Remzi · Oct 10, 2014

Good thread, Dthrow definitely comboes into bair and uair on many characters at low percent, though.

EternalFlame · Oct 10, 2014

Then my timing needs work then xD I'll edit that in a bit

Gawain · Oct 10, 2014

Just thought I'd throw this out for you Marth guys since nobody seems to realize the potency of this move. Take a page from the Captain Falcon/Diddy Kong book:

At around 40ish percent on most characters, try a landing uair and string it into an Fsmash. This registers as a true combo in the game, and you'll hit with your tipper zone when you perform this. This leads to an easy edgeguard situation. Aside from fsmash, you can do this at earlier percents as well as at higher percents (once it sends them too far to land the fsmash) to lead into fair, bair, uair, nair... basically anything. To do this move, just do what the really good Diddy and Falcon players do: bait it out with empty shorthops and use it to punish since it leads to higher percents than a simple smash and favorable setups for Marth in particular.

EternalFlame · Oct 10, 2014

Gawain said:
Just thought I'd throw this out for you Marth guys since nobody seems to realize the potency of this move. Take a page from the Captain Falcon/Diddy Kong book:

At around 40ish percent on most characters, try a landing uair and string it into an Fsmash. This registers as a true combo in the game, and you'll hit with your tipper zone when you perform this. This leads to an easy edgeguard situation. Aside from fsmash, you can do this at earlier percents as well as at higher percents (once it sends them too far to land the fsmash) to lead into fair, bair, uair, nair... basically anything. To do this move, just do what the really good Diddy and Falcon players do: bait it out with empty shorthops and use it to punish since it leads to higher percents than a simple smash and favorable setups for Marth in particular.

The trick with doing this is the spacing with landing the Uair and being careful to tip or not to tip based on percentage. In order for it to link properly as well relies on getting the uair 1 - 2 frames (guesstimation, mind you) in so the hitbox just becomes active and gives Marth/Lucina enough time to Fsmash (which you mentioned). I actually mentioned all this in the nair/uair combo section xD

But you make a good point that shorthops could be used as a punish and startup for the uair combo, so I'll add to the strategies section. I often get my uairs from starting with the air dancing blades then dropping close and uair'ing upon my opponent's hesitation. But I'm always open to more means to get the combos in xD

HiImBleep · Oct 10, 2014

Nice thread! It's cool to see players dig deep into Marth's options in this game.

Beninator · Oct 11, 2014

Was there supposed to be a link in the foxtrotting post? I can't seem to find it. Maybe I'm just a little slow, but it's not there, as far as I can tell.

Foxtrotting was in Brawl, and, despite tripping, I still used it more often than I should. I swear it's just a tad faster than running, and it lets you run into a FSmash, which I found VERY useful.

Gawain · Oct 11, 2014

Beninator said:
Was there supposed to be a link in the foxtrotting post? I can't seem to find it. Maybe I'm just a little slow, but it's not there, as far as I can tell.

Foxtrotting was in Brawl, and, despite tripping, I still used it more often than I should. I swear it's just a tad faster than running, and it lets you run into a FSmash, which I found VERY useful.

Foxtrotting itself isn't the thing that's so useful in this game. It's the fact that you can perform real dash dances with it, and even better, if you combine it with perfect pivoting you can literally do anything out of a dash. Shield, tilt, jab, smash, jump, dodge... it's really powerful. Very difficult to perform on command though.

Senshu · Oct 11, 2014

EternalFlame said:
The trick with doing this is the spacing with landing the Uair and being careful to tip or not to tip based on percentage. In order for it to link properly as well relies on getting the uair 1 - 2 frames (guesstimation, mind you) in so the hitbox just becomes active and gives Marth/Lucina enough time to Fsmash (which you mentioned). I actually mentioned all this in the nair/uair combo section xD

But you make a good point that shorthops could be used as a punish and startup for the uair combo, so I'll add to the strategies section. I often get my uairs from starting with the air dancing blades then dropping close and uair'ing upon my opponent's hesitation. But I'm always open to more means to get the combos in xD

Just tested it, the landing Uair works just as well as a landing Nair, so you can do Dancing blade into landing Uair into Fsmash! it's good! Of course around 50% or so, the Uair starts to send them too high, and you may get punished for it.

EternalFlame · Oct 11, 2014

@

HiImBleep
Much appreciated dude xD We all gotta pull our resources together to develop Marth's new meta (hopefully I used the term correctly).

@

Beninator
Yeah, I did have the link on there initially, but when I posted this it was my first post on this forum. By forum rules I can't post links till I've posted at least 10 in other threads and stuff. I'm still in the process of doing that, but know that I'll get it up there soon.

@

Gawain
Indeed. I've been trying to practice it, but getting myself to do it in an actual match is the problem. The transition from casual Smash player to semi competitive is tough. But now that I'm back from a small outing, I'll add that part from earlier into the strategy section now.

@

Senshu
Good to hear those discoveries on the air Dancing blade to followups works well for you. It seriously helps with the timing of everything and mixing it up with Fair I think will make Marth's new approach that much better.

Now I think it might be good to start abbreviating some of these so it's not such a mouthful for all of us to type as we go. Time to do some editing tonight and hopefully make it clean and clear for all Marth players to read. Let's all continue what work we can to learn the ins and outs for Marth!

Senshu · Oct 11, 2014

Yeah, it seems just a -little- bit harder to do, but at higher percents, SH DB, Nair, forward smash can kill at a fairly modest percent!

EternalFlame · Oct 11, 2014

Senshu said:
Yeah, it seems just a -little- bit harder to do, but at higher percents, SH DB, Nair, forward smash can kill at a fairly modest percent!

Oh definitely. Nair becomes what you use more at high percents, due to the knockback from the first swing not really doing much other than keeping the opponent in place for you. I imagine if you hit with the tip of the nair at least, you should be at just the right range to tip fsmash. I need to check if it truly chains in training mode, but even if it doesn't, not everyone will react to it on time xD

On another note, I'll need to learn all the Smash abbreviations at some point xD I understood what you said, but I should use it more often.

EDIT:
Taken care of the abbreviations edit, as well as adding more indents for easier reading.

Also, if there are any ways I can make the post easier for you guys to read, please let me know so I can edit accordingly.

Senshu · Oct 11, 2014

While playing against the CPU, they seem to get out of the SH DB/Nair combo almost regularly, and it was bowser no less O.o; it's a little scary.

EternalFlame · Oct 12, 2014

Senshu said:
While playing against the CPU, they seem to get out of the SH DB/Nair combo almost regularly, and it was bowser no less O.o; it's a little scary.

Yes, that's why SH DB is a setup, not a combo. It is the nair > grab that's the actual combo. SH DB helps with timing so you hit with the first swing of nair and land. I probably should clarify that on the main post xD

Thing is, against human players, they will have a more difficult time getting out of it, due to the timing. And more often or not, you're expecting not to hit with the SH DB, but what comes afterwards. If you do hit, then time to mess with their heads with the mixups

Senshu · Oct 12, 2014

My biggest issue right now, and i'm trying desperately to figure it out, is trying to find ways to lead into a Dair spike, It's been an important tool to Marth in every one of his iterations, and honestly it's all the more important now with so many characters having the craziest recoveries. But honestly the throws just don't work for it as well anymore, sometimes I can get it with a Fthrow but you really have to catch your opponent sleeping for that, what with Airdodges and how far they're thrown, you barely make it to them. And with all the conditioning we go through to tipper, the spike is most definitely not at the tip. Anybody found any reliable way to lead into a Dair spike?

Emblem Lord · Oct 12, 2014

It works better if you attempt to spike while facing towards your opponent.

EternalFlame · Oct 12, 2014

Senshu said:
. . . Anybody found any reliable way to lead into a Dair spike?

Now that I have problems with too. As of late, I've relied on ground work to kill more than spiking anyone just due to how difficult it is to hit with. But now that you brought this to my attention, I tried the SH DB on an off stage opponent and went into a spike successfully xD Now there will be some testing to do in regards to this, but it looks like it can set up well if your opponent doesn't read it. I'll be updating the post on this and one other trick I recently figured out soon. Thank you very much Senshu for bringing this up xD

EDIT: After a couple of tries against a lvl 9 CPU, I can confirm that it does work. It does not truly link (Though from hitting them when the DB and they enter a tumbling fall animation, it seems like that is the best point to spike them), it's more a read if anything though, but give it a try and see if it helps you.

That SH DB truly is our new Fair.

Senshu · Oct 12, 2014

EternalFlame said:
Now that I have problems with too. As of late, I've relied on ground work to kill more than spiking anyone just due to how difficult it is to hit with. But now that you brought this to my attention, I tried the SH DB on an off stage opponent and went into a spike successfully xD Now there will be some testing to do in regards to this, but it looks like it can set up well if your opponent doesn't read it. I'll be updating the post on this and one other trick I recently figured out soon. Thank you very much Senshu for bringing this up xD

EDIT: After a couple of tries against a lvl 9 CPU, I can confirm that it does work. It does not truly link (Though from hitting them when the DB and they enter a tumbling fall animation, it seems like that is the best point to spike them), it's more a read if anything though, but give it a try and see if it helps you.

That SH DB truly is our new Fair.

If I can find the proper timing for it (when I did it just now I needed to hit them with DB at just the point to give myself room to second jump into it) it might be a good switch up in the middle of a wall of Fairs that would normally push them off stage

EternalFlame · Oct 12, 2014

Senshu said:
If I can find the proper timing for it (when I did it just now I needed to hit them with DB at just the point to give myself room to second jump into it) it might be a good switch up in the middle of a wall of Fairs that would normally push them off stage

Similar conclusion I came to as well. I'll be updating the post now on how this is done after analyzing it a bit.

Senshu · Oct 13, 2014

Though it's pretty much said with alot of things that you have posted, I just figure i'll point out in black and white, that if you're coming to a landing Dair and Fair are just not safe, at all, you have so many landing frames, you will be punished time and again, heck if you're landing, even DB isn't safe. But, as far as I can tell Uair and Nair have next to no landing lag, and in fact if you're comboing and you hit them with a up air as you are both close to the ground, you can jump again almost immediately to continue, you just really have to pay attention to where you are.

EternalFlame · Oct 13, 2014

Senshu said:
Though it's pretty much said with alot of things that you have posted, I just figure i'll point out in black and white, that if you're coming to a landing Dair and Fair are just not safe, at all, you have so many landing frames, you will be punished time and again, heck if you're landing, even DB isn't safe. But, as far as I can tell Uair and Nair have next to no landing lag, and in fact if you're comboing and you hit them with a up air as you are both close to the ground, you can jump again almost immediately to continue, you just really have to pay attention to where you are.

Always gotta be careful on which option to use. I excluded some of the basics stuff, since players can tell without me mentioning the kind of commitment each move has. I probably should outline the commitments to the attacks.

The whole setup at points can be very punishable too, as I have learned from using it. This is why I always pushing that people need to choose the right option and read your opponents correctly. I can outline what parts have commitments if you think it will help.

Senshu · Oct 13, 2014

EternalFlame said:
Always gotta be careful on which option to use. I excluded some of the basics stuff, since players can tell without me mentioning the kind of commitment each move has. I probably should outline the commitments to the attacks.

The whole setup at points can be very punishable too, as I have learned from using it. This is why I always pushing that people need to choose the right option and read your opponents correctly. I can outline what parts have commitments if you think it will help.

One part that i'm seeing might be a huge issue (if people know to exploit it) is that during the auto cancelled Nair, Marth's head is REALLY low to the ground, I've had Samus footstool me repeatedly.

EternalFlame · Oct 13, 2014

Senshu said:
One part that i'm seeing might be a huge issue (if people know to exploit it) is that during the auto cancelled Nair, Marth's head is REALLY low to the ground, I've had Samus footstool me repeatedly.

Hmm, point there. I'm yet to encounter anyone that tried to do that (this is grounds for testing later). Good work on finding this Senshu.

Latency can play a part on how well certain moves chain, and also we need to consider the spacing you used when you tried for the nair combo. Latency can't be helped, but the latter possibly can. Did you move towards them and naired or did you do it in place? How high were they off the ground? Also did the initial DB hit?

Senshu · Oct 13, 2014

EternalFlame said:
Hmm, point there. I'm yet to encounter anyone that tried to do that (this is grounds for testing later). Good work on finding this Senshu.

Latency can play a part on how well certain moves chain, and also we need to consider the spacing you used when you tried for the nair combo. Latency can't be helped, but the latter possibly can. Did you move towards them and naired or did you do it in place? How high were they off the ground? Also did the initial DB hit?

usually the initial DB connects, i'll try working on my spacing a bit more though

EternalFlame · Oct 13, 2014

Senshu said:
usually the initial DB connects, i'll try working on my spacing a bit more though

Aah ok, then I can guess what happens here. If the opponent got hit by the initial DB, you have to be aware of how high you hit them from the ground. Nair has a narrow hitbox, and if you hit them with it while they are high, they'll recover from the stun above you and pull shinanigans like the one you mentioned xD

If you feel they are too high, go for a Fair (or a Uair to be safe) to hit them away. Better to hit them away then wiff the setup to combo and get punished for it. Trust me, its something I'm trying to adjust to it as well.

EternalFlame · Oct 17, 2014

UPDATE NOTICE xD

Since I've waited a bit but without much of a response (granted, I posted in the wrong section for help on this ^^"), I've decided to just post here whenever significant changes have been made on this post. There were a number of updates that sorta went on without people knowing I think, but after this point, I will only post when a significant change has been made to the original post.

Hopefully someone can correct me and point me in a direction of better notifying people of updates if this is the wrong way to go about it.

From the last post, here are the current changes:

short hops added to strategy section. As well as the link to the foxtrotting, perfect pivot, etc post has been put in.
New off stage subsection added to the re-termed Air Dancing Blades (which includes a setup to Spike), as well as a new strategy called Fair Assault added.
Added Emblem Lord's guide on Marth's translation to Smash 4 and other helpful tips as a link above. Also updated Fair Assault in the strategy section.
Added a new subsection called DB Up B setup, as well as added a new section called putting everything together. The latter will talk about the strings I follow with Marth, as to perhaps give some ideas to you guys on what to use and where.
Small update on DB Up B setup, SH DB, and putting everything together.

Will be continuously updating with small things here and there until something significant comes up from my testings, so stay tuned (... always wanted to say that).

EternalFlame · Oct 25, 2014

UPDATE NOTICE :D

Well everyone, the post is getting to the point that it lags a bit while I'm trying to edit it xD The subsections and all that are undergoing the occassional editing, but more importantly, new sections are being added for veteran and newcomer Marth players alike. Hopefully this will all be useful to you guys, and I will continue to update it bit by bit until it becomes a complete guide for Marth for Smash 4.

Anyways, here are the new updates:

New combos for the SH DB (check Uair and Dolphin Slash). Also added info on DB Up B setup. Also another main section added for videos that display some (if not all) of the stuff seen here.
added Dodge cancels to the strategy section, thanks to CT_DeLux and res0smash for the discovery
A new section has been added to the beginning, called "the Basics". This post is becoming more of a guide at this point, so I figured to go over the basics from a beginner Marth's perspective. Please note that some of the stuff from the strategy section has been moved here due to it's general application purposes. Out of shield options added to the Other options subsection under the basics section, as well as some minor updates to Fair setup, SH DB strategy, down throw setup/combo, and the dodge cancelling subsections.

One step further for a different kind of Marth, and hopefully I am helping that process by doing all this. Let us see what the future holds and who will rise to create the Marth meta of this generation

(felt like being sorta dramatic xD)

Tsukihi Araragi · Oct 26, 2014

When my enemy is on the ledge I like to stand in a certain place (around the middle but not exactly) so when they hop on back to the stage they'll be right in front me. I use the time to charge up and smash and if done right the tipper should hit.

EternalFlame · Oct 26, 2014

Tsukihi Araragi said:
When my enemy is on the ledge I like to stand in a certain place (around the middle but not exactly) so when they hop on back to the stage they'll be right in front me. I use the time to charge up and smash and if done right the tipper should hit.

I think I know what you're talking about. Usually for optimal edgeguarding, you need to stay just outside of their recovery attack when they try getting back on stage (taking from Emblem Lord on the spacing for it). At that point, like you said, you could start charging a Fsmash so when they jump on, they meet the business end of the tip. It all depends on how your opponent tries to recover, as it won't always work with the Fsmash. May need to dtilt, utilt, or ftilt depending on the situation, but that's getting a bit ahead of ourselves xD

I'll soon be typing up the edgeguarding section when I make more time for it. Either way, thanks for the input ^^

Hukster · Oct 26, 2014

Guide is looking quite good, keep up the good work! ^^

Tsukihi Araragi · Oct 26, 2014

EternalFlame said:
I think I know what you're talking about. Usually for optimal edgeguarding, you need to stay just outside of their recovery attack when they try getting back on stage (taking from Emblem Lord on the spacing for it). At that point, like you said, you could start charging a Fsmash so when they jump on, they meet the business end of the tip. It all depends on how your opponent tries to recover, as it won't always work with the Fsmash. May need to dtilt, utilt, or ftilt depending on the situation, but that's getting a bit ahead of ourselves xD

I'll soon be typing up the edgeguarding section when I make more time for it. Either way, thanks for the input ^^

I also like to use the dash attack a lot. It's really good when you time it right and hit with the tip.

EternalFlame · Oct 26, 2014

Hukster said:
Guide is looking quite good, keep up the good work! ^^

Of course xD I'll do my best

Tsukihi Araragi said:
I also like to use the dash attack a lot. It's really good when you time it right and hit with the tip.

Oh, that reminds me that I had not put that in on the basics section. Thanks for reminding me xD I'll edit that in when I am able. I don't use it enough times, due to how risky it is, but it has its benefits for outprioritizing certain attacks. If not for this, I might have completely missed putting it in

Either way, the guide still has more editing up ahead. Let's all keep gathering info and make this guide as complete and comprehensive as possible ^^

Random4811 · Oct 27, 2014

One of my favorite things to do is to neutral DB into SB [SB in place of the 4th hit] because everyone tries to shield the 4th hit of neutral DB. I havent tried it on down DB, and I know it doesnt work for up DB, but it is a pretty good option for Neutral. If performed quick enough, most everyone has trouble shielding until the 3rd hit, at which point you can let off a small SB to punish them. If they roll out of it, you can probably dtilt or roll yourself. But I don't remember, because most people do try to shield in anticipation of the 4th hit. Its a relatively useful technique. Ofcourse, its not the only option. But it is a good one.

EternalFlame · Oct 27, 2014

Random4811 said:
One of my favorite things to do is to neutral DB into SB [SB in place of the 4th hit] because everyone tries to shield the 4th hit of neutral DB. I havent tried it on down DB, and I know it doesnt work for up DB, but it is a pretty good option for Neutral. If performed quick enough, most everyone has trouble shielding until the 3rd hit, at which point you can let off a small SB to punish them. If they roll out of it, you can probably dtilt or roll yourself. But I don't remember, because most people do try to shield in anticipation of the 4th hit. Its a relatively useful technique. Ofcourse, its not the only option. But it is a good one.

Interesting... It'll definitely be worth testing later xD The biggest foreseeable risk when using this is the chance of perfect shielding or being knocked back too far and committing to SB, but that's where actual experience will come into play. Of course, relying on the DB means that latency can either be with you or against you on that xD Thanks for the suggestion, I'll post about it once I am more free to (with credit to you on that of course).

Anyways this week will be quite busy for me, so don't expect much of an update until the weekend. I do watch out for new replies to the post though, so I can make some time to respond whenever I see it.

Crawfish · Nov 1, 2014

idk if this is any where, but on bf, starting from one of the lower platforms at sub 10% or so.
uair on grounded opponent*>grab, dthrow(towards the top platform)>bair>uair>nair**>READ, they'll be above you.
i cry because i can no longer do short hop fair>uair, but you can still hit those moves if they land on a platform. as in the bair>uair in that string.
you can also substitute the second uair for a grab or nair or anything.

*you don't need this, it's just for MOAR combo
** they might be able escape this, just try to read/react to what they do

uair/first hit nair=god
unrelated? but fox uair on grounded opponent sets up for everything too

EternalFlame · Nov 2, 2014

Crawfish said:
idk if this is any where, but on bf, starting from one of the lower platforms at sub 10% or so.
uair on grounded opponent*>grab, dthrow(towards the top platform)>bair>uair>nair**>READ, they'll be above you.
i cry because i can no longer do short hop fair>uair, but you can still hit those moves if they land on a platform. as in the bair>uair in that string.
you can also substitute the second uair for a grab or nair or anything.

*you don't need this, it's just for MOAR combo
** they might be able escape this, just try to read/react to what they do

uair/first hit nair=god
unrelated? but fox uair on grounded opponent sets up for everything too

Now this addresses combos/setups regarding platforms, which is another topic I'm yet to cover (not to mention I mostly play Omega stages xD), but its certainly something to cover in the future. Much appreciated for bringing this to my attention xD I'll edit that in once the other stuff I gotta edit is taken care of first.

Full hops could make the Fair > Uair string work I suppose, but it heavily relies on the percentage and weight of the opponent. But back to the setup you mentioned, grabs would definitely be a harder read than the others to land in terms of safety and where your opponent is positioned, but it does seem legitimate to use every once in a while. As soon as the opponent has a hard landing on a platform, a lot of the setups listed here are great options (personally prefer the DB Up B setup). But hard landings are not directly addressed, but the setups and combos do involve them in some of the followups.

And yeah, the Uair/first hit on Nair is great xD Just getting it is where the challenge lies. Though through the setups listed above, it does make it a bit easier

Yeah, alot of Uairs seem to setup into combos rather well. In fact, the section I wrote on the Uair combos specifically was in thanks to a suggestion from Gawain, who took technique from Captain Falcon and Diddy Kongs. So I wouldn't be too surprized if alot of characters can use their Uairs to combo with, it just depends on where their hitboxes are.

EternalFlame · Nov 10, 2014

UPDATE NOTICE :d

Ok, school life is keeping me relatively busy, but hopefully this update is still substancial enough for you guys. Anyways, here are the updates:

Dash Assault has been added to the Basics section, and DB Up Setup has been changed to simply the DB setup, along with some added content to that subsection. Also throws has been added to Basics section.
Small formatting change, with larger spoilers encompassing the smaller spoilers within each section, like that of the basics section. The section titles have been enlargened, spaced out a bit more, as well as recoloured to make it easier to see from the walls of text.
The setups/combo's section has been edited to make the information more consice. A new followup has been added to the onstage A DB subsection (special thanks to Senshu for finding this out), and the A DB subsection in general has spoilers added within to divide it further for easier reading. Also, edgeguarding and recovery options have been added to the strategy section.

EternalFlame · Nov 15, 2014

UPDATE NOTICE :O

Like I said on the topic above, got big news for everyone. I will now be uploading matches that display some of the stuff I mentioned here, so people will get an idea on how to do the stuff I've talked about. The walls of text are fun, but I'm sure this will help the learning process along. Currently two videos are uploaded; 1 win, 1 loss, but both display the stuff I go for usually. But this is old footage however, so hopefully I'll start recording more recent footage to show off soon xD

At some point, maybe, I'll do a commentary tutorial for Marth. Perhaps even bring in some experienced Marths to talk about the fundamentals, since that's something I'm still working on xD

Kinslayer · Nov 16, 2014

I'm curious as to how people feel about this game and the shield stun being so low. I feel like as a Marth player it limits our potential a lot. I feel like no matter what im doing I'm never truly safe, because shield throw always punishes. So, what do you all feel is a reasonable solution to this problem or how do you deal with opponents who are very patient and use shield grab to punish down tilts and all.

Emblem Lord · Nov 16, 2014

Your d-tilt shouldnt be getting punished. You shouldnt be getting shield grabbed ever. That tells me you are too close. BTW low shield stun is why Marth can Dolphin Slash punish virtually anything that touches his shield. And as you said only a few moves from each char is truly safe. So find out what isnt and punish your opponents for it. Marth is one of the best defensive chars. If balls out aggression is your thing Marth is not the character you want to play.

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