The attitude towards this game.

[Quillion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozUXvcENPAU&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w7sIePrQng

Look at these two: NOTHING but the same combo over and over and over from the Diddy players. Solid, visible proof that you don't have to sift through. What do you guys got? NOTHING.

Kind of agree there, but I wouldn't blame him, i too am getting tired as crap about this. I mentioned yesterday on this thread that this will turn into a flame war and get locked and it looks like it's coming true. I don't mind criticizm at all, and I agree with the problems of Smash 4, but I don't like to raise arguments, and it just frustrates me

People like you are irrelevant considering with have something called the First Amendment. These discussions are the life force of any community.

And with people as loud as they are, hey, there's hope of Smash 4 getting patched to get faster and to have the BKB on attacks reduced so that combos can be mixed up.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So apparently there's no report thread button?

That would be handy.

 

[RanserSSF4]

. Melee combo's have mix ups but Sm4sh has non of that at least from what i've seen from tournaments, the character ratio thing you literally contradicted yourself i can name other Melee characters that are used frequently: Dr Mario,Captain Falcon,Pikachu ect.

Nowadays in Sm4sh we got Diddy simple combo with no mix ups same with others, this game brings no hype due to the same bread and butter down throws we see and drawn out fights involving Rosalina which forces patient play thus making the viewers bored out their minds and fuelling more complaints that i can honesty concur with.

I wasn't gonna call you a Melee hater don't worry but singles is definitely not Sm4shes strong point they should stick with doubles its the closest thing this game will get in terms of hype since comebacks in 2v1 situations are more doable.

IMO, I do think Smash 4 is more hype than Brawl, just no where near close to Melee, but I do agree with Diddy Kong, he needs to get nerfed (Mostly the Uair and Dthrow). I do also agree that the mix-ups in Smash 4 isn't as much as Melee, I still think there's lots of mix-ups potential to be discovered. I've been trying to find more mix-ups for my main Captain falcon to captilize, and so far it's going well. Unfornately, i don't videos to showcase and pulling them off is hard to do online.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Yeah, lock the thread. I've been trying for an hour to cohesively explain why I dislike Melee and think Sm4sh is better, but it always comes down to a personal preference, and that can't be argued about in a humane way. I completely understand people preferring the fast paced, elite melee.

That's not to say there are good reasons sm4sh is flat out better, the combos and "advanced techniques" made Melee so much more about what you know than anything else, and that just isn't a conducive atmosphere for a primarily casual multiplayer game. There needs to be some of that, and there are definite combos and mechanics like auto canceling neutral airs -> jab combos that new players will fall for every time, but a very important part of every game is to communicate WHY someone lost so they feel like if they were to try again they'd be slightly better and have a lower chance to lose. We all know those strategies that ruin games: sniping trolls in first person shooters, zerging in starcraft (pre-nerf), because their presence lessens the number of strategies viable at all levels of play. The games are worse off for having them just like Smash would be worse off with things like wave dashing and L canceling.

If sm4sh were simply a melee clone, so many people would play online, get rekt by someone who knows what they're doing, yell "how the hell do I counter that?", and quit. whether you like it or not, sm4sh is just smarter than melee.

ALL of that said, I do think sm4sh as a balance between brawl and melee fell too close to brawl. Camping just slows it down so much it's not even funny right now.

 

[Quillion]

IMO, I do think Smash 4 is more hype than Brawl, just no where near close to Melee, but I do agree with Diddy Kong, he needs to get nerfed (Mostly the Uair and Dthrow). I do also agree that the mix-ups in Smash 4 isn't as much as Melee, I still think there's lots of mix-ups potential to be discovered. I've been trying to find more mix-ups for my main Captain falcon to captilize, and so far it's going well. Unfornately, i don't videos to showcase and pulling them off is hard to do online.

You won't discover s**t thanks to high BKB on almost all attacks. And Diddy, no all characters need to be buffed so that they have more speed and mixups.

They don't have to make Project M4; make it Smash 4+ so that Melee won't render it redundant.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Wow. Smash use to have such a fun community. Now it's the worse competitive game community there is. Congratulations.

 

[RanserSSF4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozUXvcENPAU&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w7sIePrQng

Look at these two: NOTHING but the same combo over and over and over from the Diddy players. Solid, visible proof that you don't have to sift through. What do you guys got? NOTHING.



People like you are irrelevant considering with have something called the First Amendment. These discussions are the life force of any community.

And with people as loud as they are, hey, there's hope of Smash 4 getting patched to get faster and to have the BKB on attacks reduced so that combos can be mixed up.

that's because his Dthrow and Uair combo is too good and I agree; It should get nerfed because it does get boring to watch it being repeated. than again, knowing Mew2king very well, he is a tier *****, despite how good he is. He always picks the best character in every smash (Except Melee where he mains Marth mostly) to play as in tournaments.

 

[Quillion]

Wow. Smash use to have such a fun community. Now it's the worse competitive game community there is. Congratulations.

Which you are a part of because you're logged in. You're just insulting yourself, too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think what's really insulting is having a game I plan on taking to some form of tournaments (Smash 4, although I have plans within P:M and maybe Melee) considered obsoleted and "worthless" bothers me a lot more. But hey, your call. I'd just advise you to choose your words wisely.

If you're so bothered by this game at this point to the degree of where you belittle its growing scene and players, I'd advise you to take the advice you gave about tournaments earlier, just put down the controller and leave the setup.

 

[CommanderRin]

I love Melee, I love Smash 4 as well.

I wish they could add something that allowed the creativity Melee had without the extreme bias to Space Animals.

I think it'd be cool if you could do all tilts (except f-tilt) out of dash, and if shields were smaller (but stronger) and required the player to skillfully position the bubbles.

Maybe even reduce knock-back on non-smash attacks to allow more creativity in your follow-ups.

Dunno, I just want everyone to get along haha.

I love the new ledge mechanic as well as the changes to some of the heavier characters that need some help and obviously the new characters.

What if you could cancel certain attacks with your specials?

Dunno

Lotsa potential
...
just like this community has potential

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Wow. Smash use to have such a fun community. Now it's the worse competitive game community there is. Congratulations.

actually, there are much worse game communities out there.

But really, the online community and the game community are not the same thing. I blame the anonymous debate format of the internet more than the game or even the people, and that's not something we can really deal with.

 

[Quillion]

I think what's really insulting is having a game I plan on taking to some form of tournaments (Smash 4, although I have plans within P:M and maybe Melee) considered obsoleted and "worthless" bothers me a lot more. But hey, your call. I'd just advise you to choose your words wisely.

If you're so bothered by this game at this point to the degree of where you belittle its growing scene and players, I'd advise you to take the advice you gave about tournaments earlier, just put down the controller and leave the setup.

Not when there's the potential for the game to be patched to increase speed and competitive mixups. Like Jim Sterling said "******** and moaning" really are GREAT ways to reach the creators.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This game's system is not going to magically nor drastically change. Vectoring being gone was a nice surprise but I don't see anything else changing to be anything like this magical ideal. This isn't pessimism but this game's system is pretty grounded in place and final, if you ask me.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Which you are a part of because you're logged in. You're just insulting yourself, too.

Just making a general observation.
Yes I am part of the smash community. We all suck

 

[RIP_Lucas]

One more thing to consider is that the game's already launched. If anyone remembers Zerging in Starcraft, you know nerfing any major part of a game that 9/10 people use leads to a complete collapse of the metagame. It's way too late to nerf rolling like a lot of us would like. Instead, Nintendo would have to be subtle; remove 1 invincibility frame here, increase the lag 1 frame there, and so on. That would take months to reach the level we seem to consider ideal without leaving new fans completely confused, and I wouldn't be too surprised if they do something like that, but complaining and calling for immediate change just shows how little you understand the position Nintendo is in.

 

[Deleted member]

So apparently there's no report thread button?

Except there is, and it's super easy to find.

Clueless.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One more thing to consider is that the game's already launched. If anyone remembers Zerging in Starcraft, you know nerfing any major part of a game that 9/10 people use leads to a complete collapse of the metagame. It's way too late to nerf rolling like a lot of us would like. Instead, Nintendo would have to be subtle; remove 1 invincibility frame here, increase the lag 1 frame there, and so on. That would take months to reach the level we seem to consider ideal without leaving new fans completely confused, and I wouldn't be too surprised if they do something like that, but complaining and calling for immediate change just shows how little you understand the position Nintendo is in.

I think the main problem is there's already an established (large) base of players who enjoy it as is (right now anyways), and just flipping that on its head would piss them off. Which I think is what you're saying so yeah, I agree.

 

[ChampKing]

Wow. Smash use to have such a fun community. Now it's the worse competitive game community there is. Congratulations.

The community hasn't been the same since Brawl split it. Granted the casual vs competitive thing always existed.

 

[Swoops]

Except there is, and it's super easy to find.

Clueless.

There's a report post button, which I assume is what you're referring too. I didn't catch the report thread button, but if there is a separate button you could always help instead of insulting.

On the whole, "smash community is so terrible, wah." Welcome to the FGC. Pretty much every community is dumb.

 

[Nobie]

I think people get too obsessed with the idea of combos and that successful attacks should have extremely tangible rewards, i.e. damage. Getitng a successful hit, even if it doesn't mean a guaranteed followup after reading the opponent's DI or whatever, is still an opportunity to gain a positional advantage, to force them into an uncomfortable position. Combos aren't everything, and they're just as easy for a fighting game to get wrong as they are to get right (tons of bad to mediocre fighting games have littered the genre with "combos are so cool you guys").

 

[Luco]

The hate, prejudice and sensitivity due to perception is palpable

I think it's a good thing that people are saying things sooner rather than later. Patch ability is there for a reason and some things are easy to tell off the bat. Tier lists are more likely to change from start to months later than views on quintessential gameplay function and mechanics. Of course a lot of it is subjective, (as most any opinion is) so it could be disguised complaining without much merit, but there's still no reason to avoid saying something sooner. Yes, it should be acknowledged that the game will change and not everything is known or set at a common standard of skill, but critiques can still be relevant. There's nothing wrong, and there's something helpful with evaluating something sooner. So that changes, if there should be, happen sooner rather than later. Acknowledging problems or the wishes of the community is something that modern game developers are very capable of, and there's nothing wrong with saying 'I want this' or 'I don't want that' as some people insist. Nintendo could make smash 4 drastically changed and revert it the next, they have a lot of power, but if they have no feedback they'll have nothing to act on from the community. Even if it's segments or minorities of the Smash gaming population.

Some people seem to be under the stance of "You mentioned a thought with the game, how dare you" as though their honor was insulted and Nintendo is definitely going to make the change, which isn't true

Ah, don't get me wrong, my stance isn't to call people out for making a judgement call on the game, I simply think it may change enough for the criticism to be... well you get this point anyway, so i'll respond to the main part of the post.

I suppose this becomes a matter of 'how early is it okay to say you have a firm enough grasp on the meta to decide stuff about it'. On one hand, you have the issue of people dismissing potential depth too early and if the game is changed we don't know exactly what we're missing out on. On the other side, yes it's valid for Nintendo to make changes to the game based on early criticisms, I just wish people would have a, perhaps, more nuanced understanding of what its mechanics could be before they shout to the heavens to change it... and I don't even have a claim to say I have a nuanced understanding of this game haha.

Some things are easy to tell off the bat and I agree those can be looked at; but gameplay mechanics unless known to be absolutely detrimental to gameplay in some form (e.g. random tripping, for instance) probably aren't one of them... I can't help but wonder whether there's so much more to these mechanics that we have yet to find out.

Your position is valid - Nintendo can make changes at any time and should based on community feedback. Mine is that if we can understand the game more, our critique will be overall more useful and beneficial for the game.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Ah, don't get me wrong, my stance isn't to call people out for making a judgement call on the game, I simply think it may change enough for the criticism to be... well you get this point anyway, so i'll respond to the main part of the post.

I suppose this becomes a matter of 'how early is it okay to say you have a firm enough grasp on the meta to decide stuff about it'. On one hand, you have the issue of people dismissing potential depth too early and if the game is changed we don't know exactly what we're missing out on. On the other side, yes it's valid for Nintendo to make changes to the game based on early criticisms, I just wish people would have a, perhaps, more nuanced understanding of what its mechanics could be before they shout to the heavens to change it... and I don't even have a claim to say I have a nuanced understanding of this game haha.

Some things are easy to tell off the bat and I agree those can be looked at; but gameplay mechanics unless known to be absolutely detrimental to gameplay in some form (e.g. random tripping, for instance) probably aren't one of them... I can't help but wonder whether there's so much more to these mechanics that we have yet to find out.

Your position is valid - Nintendo can make changes at any time and should based on community feedback. Mine is that if we can understand the game more, our critique will be overall more useful and beneficial for the game.

Agree. Patches are there for a reason. My wishlist for fixes are:

- Shieldstun increase (You can still apply pressure, but it's very difficult or impossible).
- Make Rolls laggier, but still a decent option to get out of pressure
- Nerf Diddy's Dthrow to Uair combo
- Buff the weaker characters to make them as good as the best in the cast.

 

[---]

Have been getting a lot of reports coming from this thread today, but in honesty I don't see a reason to lock it just yet.

Just a couple things though, this is the Smash 4 Competitive forum, opinions about previous games in the series do not belong here nor is it the intent of the OP of this thread to raise such a discussion.

The staff will continue to watch over this thread, so please report any questionable posts that may break any of the board rules:

http://smashboards.com/threads/overview-etiquette-and-rules.367663/

 

[Ticker]

lets hope Nintendo doesn't patch any AT we find and work on.

Toon links, peach, link blc, greninja ssc rip 2014-2014

 

[Shaya]

Threads like these only go to prove to me one thing... two sides, one which primarily either doesn't play the game or won't have any real interest in the game, verses people who do.
One side goes out of their way to make their opinions heard by the other, yet it's all the same **** that everyone has heard before, astute arrogance. This does go both ways to an extent, but one side is always willing to give while the other isn't.

@ Big-Cat , I appreciated your points, I think your audience was intended to be more with the people who care, not those who I've rarely seen on this part of the board who invaded it.