The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

[snex]

since musgrave answered the first part, ill just reply to the following:

That is what you said. If God came down right now and presented himself to all of us, then I would say he proved he exists. That is how we would know if it was right, and it would probably be the only way.

how is this proof? david copperfield could do the same thing. is he god then?

As far as that last sentence you gave, yes it does affect us.

If God exists, then the entire world would be affected and it would cause countless people to rethink their lives

since god cannot be proven, theres no need for his existence or non-existence to change anybody's life. christians will still be christians even if vishnu comes down and claims he is the one true god.

 

[pikamon]

How? Other than the way you and me act, our belief system etc., and how we affect others, how does there being a god affect people? As far as I can tell, it doesn't...

If we all knew that God existed with 100% certainty, I can bet that all of us would care. If we all knew that there was a **** and that by not accepting God, we were destined to burn, I can bet all of us would reconsider our actions. Honestly, why would you think otherwise?

how is this proof? david copperfield could do the same thing. is he god then?

Wow. How can you even suggest that? I said that if God came down from Heaven (something that Mr. Copperfield cannot do) and presented himself to us in as being God in such a way that no mortal being could, then we would have our proof. David Copperfeild cannot do this, nor can any other human being.

since god cannot be proven, theres no need for his existence or non-existence to change anybody's life. christians will still be christians even if vishnu comes down and claims he is the one true god.

I already told you that he could be proven, if only by his own doings. If we found out that he existed, then it would affect us all.

And you're wrong, if we discovered that there was another supreme being and that the christian God was false, then countless people would change their beliefs. We are not so arrogant.

 

[McFox]

Originally posted by pikamon
And you're wrong, if we discovered that there was another supreme being and that the christian God was false, then countless people would change their beliefs. We are not so arrogant.

The sad part is that you probably believe this. Here's a simple answer for you:

Yes, we are that arrogant.

The major religions of the world would be largely unaffected if Hades showed up and said "Hey, you should actually be worshipping Zeus, and fearing me."

Each religion would have a different explanation of what had happened, a prankster, Satan using false names to confuse us, Satan trying to lead us astray with lies. The majority of Christians would gobble that up, and the church would still have its pions to donate money to it.

 

[pikamon]

You're probably right, Mcfox.

Some of us would do that, but then again, more of us than not would do as I said and accept that we were wrong.

 

[snex]

if all it takes is a man coming from the sky and claiming he is god for you to worship him, then your belief system is a little shaky to begin with. name one thing god can do to prove that he is in fact god that cannot be done by some other means.

 

[pikamon]

Who said he would be a man? God could just be a huge ball of light that talks. We just assume he looks like a man.


As per your request for God to do something that a man couldn't do:

1. God could move the earth from one side of the sun to the other, instantly.

2. God could cause every last human being to dissapear from the earth and take them to heaven.

3. He could make every planet liveable in a matter of seconds, then teleport us there.

4. He could blink out the sun in an instant, leaving no evidence of its existence.

5. He could bring all the continents together in an instant.

The list could go on forever.

 

[snex]

1. God could move the earth from one side of the sun to the other, instantly.

2. God could cause every last human being to dissapear from the earth and take them to heaven.

3. He could make every planet liveable in a matter of seconds, then teleport us there.

4. He could blink out the sun in an instant, leaving no evidence of its existence.

5. He could bring all the continents together in an instant.

none of these things are proof of god. who is to say there isnt some other more powerful being than the man (or ball of light) that did all these things doesnt even know about? you can never prove where it ends.

 

[pokemonmaster01]

If Hades came up to start **** then I would kick his *** for messing with my belief system.

Now that I have that matter out of the way, here is a list of other things the Lord is capable of:

Spitting purple chickens.

Creating an elephant from an ankle bone.

Singing "Stairway to Heaven" backwards without getting satanic lyrics.

Inventing a new emoticon that shows you the meaning of life.

Killing Santa Claus and avoiding the FBI for years.

Actually inventing a light beer that tastes great too.
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True, the list goes on and on... Think about it, if I can pull this stuff out of my arse, what else could be up there waiting to be called a miracle?

 

[snex]

sigh, as always, the christians miss the point.

just because some being comes down and does those things does not prove that he/she/it is god. its just more powerful than we are. 5 years after "god" comes down and spits purple chickens, another being comes down and kills the first being. now that being is god, but then in another 5 years another one kills that one, and on and on. youll never have absolute proof.

 

[Zeeky H Bomb]

5 years after "god" comes down and spits purple chickens, another being comes down and kills the first being. now that being is god, but then in another 5 years another one kills that one, and on and on. youll never have absolute proof.

And you will never have absolute proof that there ISN'T a god, so both sides of the equation are cancelled out. What are you trying to argue here?

 

[McFox]

Originally posted by Zeeky H Bomb
And you will never have absolute proof that there ISN'T a god, so both sides of the equation are cancelled out. What are you trying to argue here?

No, but you CAN at least show people that there are flaws with their perceived version of God.

Take the Creationism thread. I think we exhausted that issue there. The point was that Creationism, viewed literally has been proven wrong. While it doesn't mean God doesn't exist, or even that he didn't set into motion the events that lead to evolution, it does in part conflict with the Bible, which Christians believe to be God's true word.

 

[snex]

also, disproof of god is not necessary to support disbelief in him. i cant prove a unicorn doesnt exist, but most sensible people dont believe in unicorns. why should god be any different? oh yeah, fear. didnt we go over this?

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Yo Superbus- I can say God is bull**** without disproving him. Just as I can say gnomes, fairies, unicorns, or any others of a host of entities with no proof for them. I can also, using the Bible, show that God's alleged word is so faulty as to make his existence highly, highly unlikely, so calling it bull**** is a very apt description. What I can't do is disprove God using formal logic- a being you have defined as being able to break the laws of logic is beyond proof or disproof. It cannot be discussed with even a modicum of rationality, since the definition throws reason out the door.

-B

 

[Superbus]

Now, I don't want to debate the semantics of the word bull****...

B - What you said validates my point. When I entered the topic, people were claiming to disprove God. As you said, you can't disprove or prove God.

 

[Mediocre]

i cant prove a unicorn doesnt exist, but most sensible people dont believe in unicorns. why should god be any different? oh yeah, fear. didnt we go over this?

I've never seen anybody who goes to church every sunday to worship unicorns. I've never seen anyone who was indocrinated from birth to believe in unicorns.

There's your real difference.

 

[pikamon]

Many christians aren't raised from birth to believe in God. Rather, they're converted later on in life. I do not presume to know their reasons for it, but the fact remains that they made that choice.

 

[snex]

I've never seen anyone who was indocrinated from birth to believe in unicorns.

fine, then replace unicorns with santa claus. stop making me restate my points. think for yourself mediocre.

 

[Nic64]

Many christians aren't raised from birth to believe in God. Rather, they're converted later on in life. I do not presume to know their reasons for it, but the fact remains that they made that choice

Fear.

 

[McFox]

Originally posted by pikamon
Many christians aren't raised from birth to believe in God. Rather, they're converted later on in life. I do not presume to know their reasons for it, but the fact remains that they made that choice.

And this is true because why? Oh right, because you say so.

Most Christians are such because their parents were and there families are Christian. Some people make alternate decisions later in life, but many just stay what they because after having it shoved down their throats most of their lives, they begin to believe it. Don't believe me? Pick any family in south Louisiana at random, and 95% of the time, you'll find Christians whose parents were Christians who parents were Christian etc. etc. etc.

 

[pikamon]

Originally posted by McFox
Most Christians are such because their parents were and there families are Christian. Some people make alternate decisions later in life, but many just stay what they because after having it shoved down their throats most of their lives, they begin to believe it. Don't believe me? Pick any family in south Louisiana at random, and 95% of the time, you'll find Christians whose parents were Christians who parents were Christian etc. etc. etc. [/B]

And this is true, why? Oh right, because you said so.

I never said most were converted, I said some were.

 

[Superbus]

Most Christians are such because their parents were and there families are Christian.

And most people are republican because there parents are republican, and most people are racist because there parents are racist...

So, what's your point? It is a known fact that your environment (meaning parents) are going to influence how you turn out. I'm not seeing what makes this necessarily bad. Even so, they can still choose to be whatever they want anyways. If Christianity was really as bad as you guys say it is, then I don't think that billions of people would stay Christian.

 

[snex]

if racism were truly bad, there wouldnt be so many racists.

youre still ignoring the fear factor superbus. christians are AFRAID to convert. be honest with me superbus, are you afraid that if you abandon god you will go to ****?

 

[pikamon]

Actually, I've met alot of ex-christians. Despite what you might think, when a person gets old enough to think for themselves, they'll start to question their beliefs. Many covert to another religion. It all depends on the person and what they think is right.

 

[Superbus]

youre still ignoring the fear factor superbus. christians are AFRAID to convert. be honest with me superbus, are you afraid that if you abandon god you will go to ****?

Ok, the fear thing is ridiculous. I am honest, and your question is silly because I am not going to abandon God. But to answer a better version of your question, is that why I stay Christian? No.

You've made Christianity out to be worse than racism. At least people gather a feeling of ethnic superiority from racism, you've denied all value in Christianity.

 

[snex]

dont avoid the question superbus. are you or are you not afraid to abandon god?

 

[Superbus]

It's not an avoidance. You're asking about a situation that isn't going to happen, thus is irrelevant. I don't even know what I am, because abandoning God is the first and foremost sin in our religion, and that's why I'm not going to abandon God.

 

[snex]

I don't even know what I am, because abandoning God is the first and foremost sin in our religion, and that's why I'm not going to abandon God.

that right there says it all. youre afraid to comit the first sin, because you believe you will be punished for it. you are so afraid that you cannot even conceive doing it.

 

[Zeeky H Bomb]

So by saying your not afraid of sin, and not believing in god, doe that also mean you don't believe in sin? You dont believe thievery is a sin? Lying? ******? Murdering!? If you dont believe god exists, then you really don't believe sin exists, and that means you dont believe in law.

Did i make sense?

 

[snex]

no, you didnt. sin is the concept of universal morality. there is no such thing as universal morality. it is completely subjective.

that said, that doesnt mean that i (or other atheists) dont have morals. murder, thievery, lying, and ****** may not be "wrong" in the sense that sin defines them, but they are wrong within the context of human society. humans are social animals, and thus profit from cooperating with each other. when somebody goes around murdering people, he is not only preventing the development of the people he murders, but the development of the entire species. morality exists to make life easier for everyone, and religion is merely a tool to enforce it.

 

[Superbus]

youre afraid to comit the first sin

How about I don't commit the first sin because I believe I am doing right?

 

[snex]

what causes you to believe you are doing right? there is no convincing evidence that would cause a rational belief in god. your beliefs are therefore irrational. the only thing capable of causing an adult human with a fully functional mind to have irrational thoughts is FEAR.

but feel free to ask a psychologist, who would know much more about the subject than i.

 

[Suretman]

I agree with Snex. I was raised in a strong Christain family and it took me a long time to let go and abandon God because I was afraid. I still feel that fear sometimes that I will go to **** if I do certain things that the Bible says is wrong and don't repent. Superbus you ARE afraid.

 

[Zeeky H Bomb]

I agree with Snex. I was raised in a strong Christain family and it took me a long time to let go and abandon God because I was afraid. I still feel that fear sometimes that I will go to **** if I do certain things that the Bible says is wrong and don't repent. Superbus you ARE afraid.

Maybe he is, so am i, who cares? Fear is good in most situations, bad in few.

Edit: Hey Mediocre...

 

[snex]

is it good in situations where it causes you to hold onto belief systems that are no longer applicible to modern society?

 

[Zeeky H Bomb]

is it good in situations where it causes you to hold onto belief systems that are no longer applicible to modern society?

I dont see why these fair religions dont fit into society.

 

[McFox]

Originally posted by Superbus
So, what's your point? It is a known fact that your environment (meaning parents) are going to influence how you turn out.

That's exactly what I was saying.

I'm not seeing what makes this necessarily bad. Even so, they can still choose to be whatever they want anyways. If Christianity was really as bad as you guys say it is, then I don't think that billions of people would stay Christian.

I never said it was bad, I was just arguing with pikamon that the majority of Christians are thus because of exactly what you said, the environment they were raised in. I don't think religion is a bad thing. I have my own code of morals that I live by, everyone does. If you need a religion to tell you what's right and wrong, then be my guest. I'm just saying that there's no real reason to believe in it all.

 

[pikamon]

Originally posted by snex
is it good in situations where it causes you to hold onto belief systems that are no longer applicible to modern society?

What the **** are you talking about?

If you seriously think that religion isn't applicible in our society, then you've got a very twisted view on the world. Can you imagine a world without religion? Just think about it.

The Christian belief system, which you've called wrong, without any proof whatsoever, is a core influence and representation for all things good. The Christian laws and commandments have influenced many modern laws in many countries throughout the world. Our society is better off because of this religion.

 

[snex]

Can you imagine a world without religion? Just think about it.

*imagines* ahh sweet paradise..

The Christian belief system, which you've called wrong, without any proof whatsoever, is a core influence and representation for all things good. The Christian laws and commandments have influenced many modern laws in many countries throughout the world. Our society is better off because of this religion.

it is not the christian morality that causes the problems, it is everything else. creationism stands in the way of scientific advances. islamic fanatics stand in the way of new york skyscraper constructions. palestinians and jews stand in the way of a peaceful middle east. protestants and catholics stand in the way of a peaceful northern ireland. the list goes on and on. these are the side-effects of religion that are not applicable to modern society. if all of these people stopped fearing what they cant even prove to exist the world would be a much happier place.

 

[Nic64]

You dont believe thievery is a sin? Lying? ******? Murdering!? If you dont believe god exists, then you really don't believe sin exists, and that means you dont believe in law.

This argument pisses me off so much, I ******* hate anyone who decides that they are morally superior because of their religion. Good people would not do these acts because they have a conscience, if you need fear to motivate you to do right then you're not as moral as you'd like to think.

 

[Mike da King]

The floks (hey, that spelling error has a double meaning!) in Southern Louisiana are simply not exposed to the sort of religious diversity that forces people to question their beliefs, and so they sheepishly accept the traditional religious teachings of their family. I doubt that they remain predominantly Christian solely due to fear of heavenly smitage. All this talk of fear is only partially accurate; religion offers the prospect not only of uberpunishment for nonadherents, but of supreme reward for the pious. Of course, the claims of religion are as hollow as a hollow dark chocolate easter bunny; that is, very hollow. Solid evidence is the stuff of good chocolate. Don't believe until you've bit..bitten..erm..bited..no..taken a bite.