The "Ask t!Mmy and Pink Reaper about Kirby" Thread

[Psymon]

Rhan, no it doesn't, x and y are jumps, nothing more nothing less. When the person you're fighting is "in your belly", them tapping buttons rapidly gets them out faster, same as breaking free from a grab and out of an egg when playing with/against yoshi.

 

[Pink Reaper]

lol Like if you suck up the opponent and your falling off the stage, does rapidly tapping X or Y help get them out your belly.

No

10chars

 

[rhan]

Alright thanks for answering.
I just started to get into Kirby. Sry for the dumb question. lol

 

[t!MmY]

We want more questions. Smart, dumb, or silly it's better than nothing. ^_^

 

[cowsmoo71]

my friend is all about hit-and-run, and he is a marth player. He outruns me with his marthy speed. I can't seem to come close, considering he picks stage and item selection. What could help counter hit and run?
PS-if i say many Kirby vs High Tier matchups in my Q's, thats because my friends all play with upper tier chars.

 

[Pink Reaper]

If your friends playing hit and run your best bet would just be to shield camp and attempt to do it as effectively as possible. There's really no way to catch Marth, especially if your on a large stage. Attempt to shield his laggier attacks and then either use an aerial out of shield(bair >.>) or wavedash OoS and attempt a Reaper Combo->aerial(Uair/Bair >.>)

On a side note, if your playing with items on, you could always just camp the ledge until something useful spawns near you.

 

[t!MmY]

You say he's playing "hit 'n run" style huh? Well, since he's hitting he's going to have to come to you at some point. When he does, hit him first.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

I have a quick gameplay question: When should I fast-fall my short-hopped lasers against either space animal?

I have a quick guide question: When (if ever) will the stage selection and character match-up guides get finished?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Don't short hop laser against Fox. Its rather slow and you'll more than likely get punished by the fox. Against Falco, fast fall at the peak of your jump, its that simple. You should get two lasers off.

Match-up guide may never get finished as t!Mmy has given up on it and Im not completely knowledgeable about some of the match-ups(and theres only like, three people who ever come to this board anyways)

As for stages, heres a quick summation. Don't pick FD, don't pick Yoshi Story, Dreamland 64/Kongo Jungle 64/Jungle Japes are your friends. Mute City against Fast Fallers if they ban Jungle Japes.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

I actually do not know this, and so I need to know:

How do you auto-cancel Kirby's U-Air?


Depending on the answer I get, I will probably ask another question.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Auto-canceling happens when you land on certain frames of an aerial canceling out all attack lag. So instead of getting the 15 frames of lag while landing during a Uair you get the.....4(?) frames of land lag. The Uair Auto Cancels on frames 10 and 17, but the actual attack comes out from frames 11-13. The idea would be to short hop a Uair, then land on frame 17 canceling out more lag than even L-canceling would allow. You'll know you auto canceled because when you land you'll get the little wavy green lines you get from just jumping and landing rather than the white smoke that comes from landing during an attack.


Sorry if thats a little confusing, if you don't get it I'll try and explain it a little better.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

Thank you. I actually started practicing L-cancel for ^Air, and remembered something about an auto cancel. I heard of it, but did not know/remember how it was done.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, landing lag is four frames. Auto canceling is basically the non-Peach player's float cancel. The only character I've really heard it used with is Marth, but maybe that's just because I play Marth. You could probably look up the auto cancel frames on SuperDoodleMan's site.

 

[Pink Reaper]

lol, Marth only? Seriously? The Mario's are all about Auto Canceling and so are characters like Jiggs, DK, Gannon and Sheik

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Huh, really? I dunno, Marth's the only character I've looked at auto-cancels with. I don't really play Jigglypuff or Mario and I only play Donkey Kong and Ganondorf for funsies. I haven't seen anything auto-cancelable with Ganondorf, but I've noticed that Donkey Kong's uair seems to do it pretty well.

And who needs aerials with Sheik anyway? It's just jab/dash attack/grab/needle cancel/tilt to fair. Maybe occasionally a dsmash.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ay, Gannon is all about the SH auto canceled aerials. Im almost certain that all of his aerials can be auto canceled from a short hop other than his Dair. And go watch any Eggz vid, auto canceled Uairs all day(theres even a combo vid called "Up Aired Blind")

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Huh, seriously? I always ended up shffl'ing with Ganon. Then again, I shffl with characters I shouldn't. Like Peach.

Yeah, I saw Uair'd Blind... I just figured he was shffl'ing though =P I didn't really look closely, it looked basically like standard Marth combos except with less range and not as solid endings, although it was still pretty cool.

 

[Eggz]

almost all uairs and bairs in that video were auto cancelled lol

 

[Pink Reaper]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, HOLY **** ITS EGGZ!!! EVERYONE RUN, DONT LOOK DIRECTLY INTO HIS EYES, HE WILL STEAL YOUR SOUL *Panic panic panic panic*


Lol, sup Eggz, still 4 stockin' random Kirby's with Fox?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

But then does the shield stun cover you so that you don't get shieldgrabbed? Landing lag is four frames and most grabs come out in seven which means you'd have to have them in shield stun until at least three frames before you hit the ground... which doesn't seem possible @_@ But I'm not an expert on Mario's frame data.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Well the idea is to NOT go blindly attacking shields you know. If you do attack a shield you should be spacing it so you don't get grabbed. And of course, you could always do a follow up with, like something fast, like you know, a JAB! Granted, this is all with Mario who has actually usable AC'd attacks. Kirby's AC'd attacks are all pretty much useless save perhaps the Auto Canceled Dair which can cause fall stun while only giving you 4 frames of land lag(lowered from 10 I believe when L-canceled) but even that isn't particularly useful.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

After watching myself clank Kirby's u-tilt with Fox's f-smash, I have a question:

What is u-tilt's priority against each of Fox's moves?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im going to add this to the match up guide, so excuse it for being a little wordy.

Out Prioritize:
Dair
Fair
Uair
Fire Fox
Illusion
Jab
Dash Attack
Nair

Clank:
Fsmash
Dtilt
Ftilt(only if spaced perfectly on your end however)
Shine(lol)
Utilt
Dash Attack
Nair

Out Prioritized:
Dsmash
Usmash
Nair
Bair

Clanking a shine is extremely difficult because it comes out in one frame so you'd have to start it just before Fox Approaches(at which point it would be better to attempt to out space him and hit him before he can get it off) The starting frames on Kirby's Utilt are lower priority than the middle/ending frames, so if you hit a Dash attack early with your low priority Utilt it will clank, however if you hit the end of the dash attack with your Utilt it will out prioritize. The same goes for Fox's Nair, its got high priority on the early frames that decrease over time so if its full hopped you have the ability to out prioritize it.

Fox's Dair can be out prioritized, but it comes out quickly from a SH making it difficult to hit with a Utilt. His other approaches, SH Nair and Shine either out prioritize you or in shines case is so fast its almost impossible to counter properly.

An extra bit of info on the Shine, people tend to think its difficult to tech a shine spike. Its actually not. Assuming you can get close enough to a wall to hug it all you need to do is DI hard into the stage and press L/R right on the few frames before Kirby begins the upward movement of his Final Cutter. Most Fox players drop down to shine just low enough so that they can instantly grab the ledge again, which is just a few frames into the upward part of the Final Cutter(Assuming your spacing to land on the stage) Kirby actually has a slightly easier time of Teching a shine than many characters BECAUSE of the start up of his FC as it gives him open frames where he can Press L/R before getting hit.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

Thanks...

That information was worth the wait. I doubt I will try clanking Shine, however.

 

[Omni_Smash]

Alright, I'm hoping for a response from t!mmy but if not I'll take one from Reaper it don't really matter.

I've been sort of a fan of t!mmy since this spring, in fact he is the reason that I picked up kirby and made him a nuisance to my freind's fox skills for over six months but since I've shown him the guides for fox on this site he has become... somewhat harder to deal with and constantly laughs at Kirby being killed by his up tilt due to a missed grab (He spot dodge the frick'n thing), and the fact that he is teching my down throws consitently, and using the get up attack so I can't reaper combo him with Up-tilt or up Smash. The only thing I've been able to do is hit him with the inner hitboxes of the downsmash (after my down throw) tossing him up. Is this a good thing to do?

I'm wondering if that can help set up for a fence of pain, and perhaps some general tips on getting around a fox that isn't good at wavedashing yet and is still getting used to the idea of L-canceling, (I taught him how to play and he's just getting rid of a lot of bad habits from the noob days).

My Y. Link freind likes to sword plant me a lot but I usually get around that by sheild grabbing, he has the nasty habit of timing it in accordance to when I get off the ledge no matter what I do though and frankly it's annoying. Any help there?


The reason I was hoping for t!mmy's response is because I was taught my basic Mario skill earlier this year by a guy that used to play with him, the name was Alex, gamer tag was DMG I believe.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

Alright, I'm hoping for a response from t!mmy but if not I'll take one from Reaper it don't really matter.

Good, because you will get one from me.

I've been sort of a fan of t!mmy since this spring, in fact he is the reason that I picked up kirby and made him a nuisance to my freind's fox skills for over six months but since I've shown him the guides for fox on this site he has become... somewhat harder to deal with and constantly laughs at Kirby being killed by his up tilt due to a missed grab (He spot dodge the frick'n thing), and the fact that he is teching my down throws consitently, and using the get up attack so I can't reaper combo him with Up-tilt or up Smash. The only thing I've been able to do is hit him with the inner hitboxes of the downsmash (after my down throw) tossing him up. Is this a good thing to do?

How do you hit Fox with d-smash if he tech-rolls d-throw? Well, if you can hit with d-smash, go for it.

I'm wondering if that can help set up for a fence of pain, and perhaps some general tips on getting around a fox that isn't good at wavedashing yet and is still getting used to the idea of L-canceling, (I taught him how to play and he's just getting rid of a lot of bad habits from the noob days).

Just overwhelm him with your superior technical ability. Punishing his spacing and punishing his lag (with a shield grab) is probably easier; your spacing is enhanced since he can (physically) do nothing about it. You have more opportuniteies.

When your friend gains decent technical ability, though, your victories will SIGNIFICANTLY decrease. This match-up IS 10-90 Fox, so consider yourself warned.

My Y. Link freind likes to sword plant me a lot but I usually get around that by sheild grabbing, he has the nasty habit of timing it in accordance to when I get off the ledge no matter what I do though and frankly it's annoying. Any help there?

Wow, the Young Link generally does d-tilt for edge-guarding. His d-air is really not the way to go. Maybe sweet-spot Final Cutter, jump higher than him + recover, or if you want to give them a surprise, a Swallowcide.

The reason I was hoping for t!mmy's response is because I was taught my basic Mario skill earlier this year by a guy that used to play with him, the name was Alex, gamer tag was DMG I believe.

Maybe Pink Reaper can make a response here...


Undoubtedly, Pink Reaper is making a massive post to dwarf this, so just wait a bit longer.

Your arrival is like a cherry placed on top of a sundae (I should add my Kirby-based greetings to the thread finder...) Welcome to Kirby SSBM boards!

 

[Omni_Smash]

Thanks, I'm SSBM all the way.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is really, really hard with Kirby.

Out of D-throw if you can get any follow-through, then it's a good thing. Kirby's tech chase game is, well, bad. Mostly because he's slow. One of Kirby's more painful flaws is that his throws are, well, terrible. U-tilt if he techs in place is good, generally (you may have to walk/wavedash to land this). Swallow is okay if they tech roll away from you and you expect a shield, shine or sidestep (sidestepping or shining is popular after tech rolls because they help escape predictable regrabs so swallow is a good mixup) but if you whiff Swallow then god help you. D-smash is somewhat of an unorthodox choice; I'm not sure how it works. I'm not sure if this works with Kirby but what Sheik can do out of D-throw is space and time an U-smash to cover 3/4 of Fox's tech roll options (not tech, tech in place, tech past) and Kirby's D-smash seems like it could do the same (I think it has more horizontal range than Sheik's U-smash) although I really have no idea if it would. If it did that would be worth investigating although my gut feeling is that it's too slow. But Kirby sometimes surprises me, so who knows.

Okay, that's a lot for D-throw.

For countering sidesteps... just don't be so obvious I guess? Bait it and punish? There's not much to sidestep counters with Kirby. Other than Swallow, maybe repeated U-tilt spam, and/or Rapid Jab you don't really have anything that covers sidestep (Sheik has D-smash, for instance, IC have blizzard and D-smash if you do it with tricks, Fox has... well, everything he does covers sidestep lol, etc) and the few things you do have are for the most part horrifically punishable (especially Swallow; whiffing Swallow is like surrendering 30% or a stock). If it's a really bad sidestep like Mewtwo's you can just punish it but... for fast sidesteps like Fox's or Sheik's it's pretty much you have to space as best you can so you can't be horribly beaten to death if you do whiff on their sidestep and from there just try to catch them. Kirby's jab isn't bad so consider it an option in close range (it sounds like close range) but... jabbing vs Fox in general is risky (unless you're spaced and Sheik/Marth). CC shine is horrific.

You asked about the fence of pain. The fence of pain, honestly, is mainly setup by Bair. On-stage there's not a whole lot of combo power Kirby has. The most elaborate combo I've ever done with him is U-tilt weak Nair U-tilt Bair around 30 or 40ish against my friend's DK and after that Bair it ended completely because he DIed away. Kirby's combo power is horrible. To setup fence of pain, you need them off the stage pretty much because there's no hope of setting it up onstage so mostly just B-air, kick them off and then fence. On that note, U-tilt sets up B-air very nicely so that is also a recommended option to setup the fence.

To get around a bad Fox just U-tilt a lot and grab him a lot and Bair him a lot. Also, spacing. And shield-grabbing. Sit in shield. If he comes at you with grabs, WD back into a defensive tilt. If he comes at from the air, shield grab him. This will stop working when he stops sucking. At which point, your strategy changes from punishing and spacing to "Praying". Actually it doesn't really change but it becomes absurdly hard. It's very hard to punish a spaced Fox with Kirby especially the ones that like to run back and forth into grab and U-throw Bair/U-air.

For now, though, stick to shield grabbing and spacing his approaches and if he can't WD out of shield or U-smash out of shield, you can probably get away with approaching with spaced F-air. And, of course, Kirby's staples (grab, u-tilt, bair, and kind of f/d-tilt).

I'm confused by what you mean for YLink. Do you mean recovering? Or when you're at the ledge he times it to hit you out of whatever you do? Whatever, I'll answer both.

YLink is a cunt in general. At the ledge just play around with the edge. You have five jumps. Five horrible, low distance jumps, but you still have them. So just drop low and regrab the edge, fake returning to the stage by jumping back and then jumping forward with Bair or something. Just play around. Don't roll to get onto the stage, Kirby's roll is terrible. Ledgedashing or ledgehopping onto the stage quickly and throwing up a shield is also okay. You have to do it fast to preserve invincibility and there will be a gap of invincibility between the shield and you leaving the edge but it's a small gap if you do it right so try it and consider it. You can, obviously, just do the standard getup or ledgehop a fair or bair or whatever but... Kirby is punishable just about everywhere the ledge is no exception. Just be patient, and very careful, and you should be okay but sometimes you will get hit if they just outsmart you. That's really all there is to it. Kirby on the ledge is bad for Kirby. You can ledgehop Swallow for lolz/mindgames but that probably won't work against spaced people. If you can use it to scare people from being near you at the ledge, then that's awesome, and makes life easier... but if they're smart it won't work.

If he's edgeguarding with Dair and you mess up your Final Cutter squeezing/sweetspotting just DI it and you go straight up. From there just stone and sweetspot the stone or recover from high up accordingly. Or move out of his way. Or get close to the top of the stage and if he does it air-dodge through it. If you're at killing percent you're pretty much screwed if they time it perfectly and wait for you and have a way of hitting it, but unless you're at 80ish don't worry too much about it. I'd be far more concerned with D-smash, ledge hopped Nair, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

[Omni_Smash]

lol, thanks for the tips. Y. Link's down smash is the least of my worries he dash cancels to a down smash and I always go for a short hop > basically anything even a down air, whether it's near the ledge or on the middle of the stage, he isn't quite at the level where his short hop boot presents a problem to my kirby because I DI it correctly.

The fox indeed will stop sucking very soon, I've left him to practice for a month by himself so I'm expecting him to suprise me but I think I might get some more hits in and make him cry like he used to while losing to kirby. lol to clanging uptilts, it'll be a shocker for him.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

Fox is really, really hard with Kirby.

Out of D-throw if you can get any follow-through, then it's a good thing. Kirby's tech chase game is, well, bad. Mostly because he's slow. One of Kirby's more painful flaws is that his throws are, well, terrible. U-tilt if he techs in place is good, generally (you may have to walk/wavedash to land this). Swallow is okay if they tech roll away from you and you expect a shield, shine or sidestep (sidestepping or shining is popular after tech rolls because they help escape predictable regrabs so swallow is a good mixup) but if you whiff Swallow then god help you. D-smash is somewhat of an unorthodox choice; I'm not sure how it works. I'm not sure if this works with Kirby but what Sheik can do out of D-throw is space and time an U-smash to cover 3/4 of Fox's tech roll options (not tech, tech in place, tech past) and Kirby's D-smash seems like it could do the same (I think it has more horizontal range than Sheik's U-smash) although I really have no idea if it would. If it did that would be worth investigating although my gut feeling is that it's too slow. But Kirby sometimes surprises me, so who knows.

Okay, that's a lot for D-throw.

For countering sidesteps... just don't be so obvious I guess? Bait it and punish? There's not much to sidestep counters with Kirby. Other than Swallow, maybe repeated U-tilt spam, and/or Rapid Jab you don't really have anything that covers sidestep (Sheik has D-smash, for instance, IC have blizzard and D-smash if you do it with tricks, Fox has... well, everything he does covers sidestep lol, etc) and the few things you do have are for the most part horrifically punishable (especially Swallow; whiffing Swallow is like surrendering 30% or a stock). If it's a really bad sidestep like Mewtwo's you can just punish it but... for fast sidesteps like Fox's or Sheik's it's pretty much you have to space as best you can so you can't be horribly beaten to death if you do whiff on their sidestep and from there just try to catch them. Kirby's jab isn't bad so consider it an option in close range (it sounds like close range) but... jabbing vs Fox in general is risky (unless you're spaced and Sheik/Marth). CC shine is horrific.

...

My problem with these paragraphs is the insistence on Inhale. Inhale has significant start-up lag (in that you have to crouch-cancel the dash and then activate Inhale...otherwise, Ground Hammer is used and Fox ends up destroying Kirby).

D-smash is a MUCH better option for punishing a tech-roll to spot-dodge by Fox. D-smash hitboxes stay out longer than Fox's spot-dodge and unlike Inhale has more range and power. Start-up lag is less in that Kirby only has to crouch-cancel the dash into d-smash (which can happen simultaneously) , which is MUCH faster than having to stop and Inhale.

Other than that, you explained in far better detail the answers to his question than I.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My problem with these paragraphs is the insistence on Inhale. Inhale has significant start-up lag (in that you have to crouch-cancel the dash and then activate Inhale...otherwise, Ground Hammer is used and Fox ends up destroying Kirby).

Or you could dash and then very, very quickly short hop the inhale forward so the momentum carries you to where he's going to finish his tech roll?

I dislike Kirby's d-smash as a move in general, especially tech chasing space animals, I hate how they cc it to percentages where it SHOULD knock them over but it doesn't and then they **** me for using it, I hate how if I space so they can't punish me for doing it even if they cc it only does like 9% which would be accomplished by d-tilt (which aside from being easier to hit comes out faster and could cover more stuff probably), and finally I hate how it only covers one option. At least if you space swallow there will be none of this clanking d-smashing business or cc or any of that crap, they get swallowed and you get a chance to chase them, and if you land another hit then yay if not well whatever it's Kirby.

edit: I reread my second paragraph you quoted. The OP said that he was having trouble because his friend was spot-dodging his grabs and moves and killing him for them. I said Kirby didn't have many usable options for covering spot-dodges and I listed his options. When I listed those options, I said (or rather implied I guess) that Swallow was a horrible option for covering sidesteps as a whole (and rapid jab was risky and easily punished) and that just spacing so that you don't get punished if they DO sidestep was better overall.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

I was talking about spot-dodging specifically. I should have specified that...because if most Foxes did anything other than spot-dodge after tech roll (like crouch-canceling), d-smash becomes useless.

Meh, Kirby has such a horrible tech chase either way...

We could just tech-chase with Stone...

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you have the reflexes to react to the spot-dodge and land d-smash during a tech chase more power to you.

And I concur; Kirby's tech chasing is horrendous on his best days.

 

[Omni_Smash]

But think how shocked the other character would be if all our kirby's learned to tech chase like no tommorrow lol.