The Art of War for Palutena's soldiers! [Official Match-Up Thread]

[Maharba the Mystic]

so can we discuss making marth a -2 instead of a -1? like the more i work on this MU with people, the more he seems way harder than wario ever was. i think we had it backwards forever. so both MUs weren't all that common, marth was easier when both characters were inexperienced. kinda like how wario was way harder and got surprisingly easier as we learned it.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Nah son, marth aint no -2

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well why not? i can make a solid argument for him being a -2. i mean it's not like pit is infallible and can only lose hard to MK. i seriously think he marth is a -2. but i also feel that MK is a -3.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

MK maybe -3 but Marth got some weaknesses. Make the arguement and ill put up my opinions.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

marth severely outspaces us. his fair goes through arrows and out ranges all of our moves and just threatening fairs is a solid approach for him. his dtilt and ftilt keep us out and db destroys nearly every approach. not to mention his grab range and pivot grab range is ******** and he can grab a well spaced fsmash if he powershields hit 1. i mean ya we can get in jab and dtilt if we really try but marth can dance around us onstage with ease. getting in a kill move is damn near impossible. not to mention getting back on the ledge against marth is ridiculous. hell he can even take us offstage as long as he stays near it. seriously getting edgeguarded by marth is guaranteed either ungodly damage or a stock. plus he kills early with tipper **** and good marths don't have problems with this. and if you get tippered while planking it is literally a guarenteed death.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

He doesn't severely outspace us, our fair has nearly as much range as his, we are just slower. He can't fair every arrow, you just have to be smart with them like arrow to punish landing much like what sheik does with needles. If he approaches with fair Pit has good enough speed to dash under him if it's full hop or roll behind him because those are weak spots. DB isn't very safe on shield which is why most Marths use it to punish spot dodges or rolls which isn't Marth, but the player being smart. We can punish spot dodges and rolls by baiting with jab and reacting with pivot dsmash or dash attack. We have a good pivot grab as well, just not boost pivot grab so his seems better that way. You don't have to focus on getting the kill move, but rather getting the situation in which we can land one i.e. getting Marth to use up b to the ledge, then punishing landing penalty or just throwing him offstage and gimping with mirror shield or arrows to edgehog. I'm pretty sure when he is fair planking that we can mirror shield and quickly edgehog him when he trys to upb. Zoning us out on the ledge is definitely the biggest problem, but Pit can take his time there with arrows until Marth decides to lay off. Dolphin slash is a major problem as well, but getting tippered is just unlucky. Good Marths might know the spacing for tippers, but good Pits should too and try to stay out of that range or stay in where fsmash won't kill that early. Slow paced Pit can handle this matchup easier than fast paced because Marth benefits from momentum moreso than Pit. He's light which is a good factor for us to kill him early with fresh fsmash. Try playing nike or whoever gives you problems without arrows and focus more on holding your ground than running away to camp and you might see a change in results with the Marth mu.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

the fact that he is faster is why he outspaces us so bad lol. it doesn't matter if our fair is almost as long as his, his is way faster and will always hit first and has more range. he severely out spaces us.

most of that is true, except marth NEVER has to lay off when he gets us to the ledge. there is a lgl, and we are the ones who have to get back. edgeguarding marth isn't that hard, but we don't get rewarded for it anywhere near as much as he does for edgeguarding us. also getting him into a situation to kill him is bull **** hard too.

@the arrow thing, he doesn't have to fair every arrow. he can take his sweet *** time coming up to us because he can ps, jab, and fair arrows. sure he'll get hit by a few, but then whop there he is fairing nairing grabbing and punishing all day.

@the grab thing, sure our pivot grab is good, but it's not like we realistically will have a lot of chances to use it. grabbing marth is ridiculously hard, but not the other way around.

db doesn't have to safe on shield, he can just dtilt and fair us to the ledge and either force you to try and get away with a roll or something and then db, or we can go to the ledge and time ourselves out.


what marth's do you play luckay? or do you regularly play against marth?

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I don't play Marths regularly, just speculating on what I've seen from playing wifi which I know is bad. I'll be sure to get some extensive friendlies in with Neo and save the matches to my wii, I believe he is the only PR'd member in my region I haven't played yet lol. Also the lgl doesn't matter unless the match goes to time and matches vs Marth hardly ever go to time. But being outspaced and zoned on the ledge doesn't make the matchup -2 for us, I'm sure of it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it's not just the ledge, but you'll see. neo is good. however unless he knows the pit match up really well your not gonna get what i mean. like nike has esca experiance so he knows the match up really well. you gotta play him until he figures out the pit MU. i feel when both players really know the MU it is **** for marth. but please show me im wrong so i can learn what to do because from what i've seen and experianced marth solidly beats pit.

 

[Blubolouis]

I don't think it's that bad. Once marth's % get above 50/60% (and it's pretty easy to get there) it becomes easier to just push him away, and he has approach yet again. Don't try to camp from far away with only arrows, since he can dismiss these quite easily.

You need to stay just outside of his range, and annoy him with arrows to make him react to them. Punish rising aerials with your own, empty short hops with arrows or fair. yeah obviously you'll need to mindgame the fact that it'll be an empty short-hop... however if you are, like you should be, out of his immediate range, you should be able to get your fair started before he can actually interrupt you. Don't count on this too much, cause the main point in this match-up is to MIX IT UP heavily.

We get juggled pretty hard; don't hesitate and go for the ledge if you have to.
Finally, don't lose any opportunity and punish everything you can (if you mess up or don't know what you can actually punish, you're gonna get DB'd or DS'd all day) . Edgeguard him like there's no tomorrow, juggle and punish his airdodges if you get a throw or usmash/tilt in.

Don't rush for the kill. It can come in the form of an edgeguard (invincibair, arrow gimps, regrab the ledge with WoI if he thinks you're going for a bair), a well-spaced ftilt+arrows, an Fsmash (i never kill with this lol)/Dsmash or if you're desesperate, hyphen smash.
The only way you're gonna land a bair is by trading with his fair (it happens...) or as a punisher on rising aerials or whiffed UpB.




well I might be wrong on some of these, but that's how I see it.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I played San in some friendlies today, his Ike is a beast! I still don't know that matchup well. It's hard for me, but I'm finding uptilt works really well for juggling and interupting his aerials.

 

[Blubolouis]

Did you save some replays?
I hate this MU, both ways :>

 

[Kuro~]

I've played with ryo quite a bit so i have a fair amount of knowledge gained. Not a master by any means but i know a bunch ^_^ So if u have any ? i might be able to help~

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Did you save some replays?
I hate this MU, both ways :>

Yes, I saved the replays. I only have like 2 though and I only have the 3 minute timer. How do you pressure Ike onstage? I found myself holding onto the ledge so much. I really need to learn how to play Ike onstage. He is definitely a character that I fear onstage.

 

[Nike.]

it's not just the ledge, but you'll see. neo is good. however unless he knows the pit match up really well your not gonna get what i mean. like nike has esca experiance so he knows the match up really well. you gotta play him until he figures out the pit MU. i feel when both players really know the MU it is **** for marth. but please show me im wrong so i can learn what to do because from what i've seen and experianced marth solidly beats pit.

I wouldn't call me and esca playing 4 games in a mm matchup experience. I don't know the Pit/Marth that well honestly. It's more like me abusing Marth's inherent advantages lol. Esca learned the MU from takeover, though, which is why he does so much better.

Neo is the definition of proper Marth play. However, he absolutely hates the camping aspect of brawl. I'm not sure how he'd react to a campy Pit lol.

I think the MU is only +1, btw. Blub said it pretty well. Pit's guerrilla warfare tactics are so ghey x)

 

[Kuro~]

Tbh, and i've said this b4, i think marth is one those matchups that could either get much worse(-2) or much better(0) as more of us play each other and REALLY learn it. As it is we both just abuse the things we're good at.

 

[MVD]

From my experience with fyre with Marth and MK, Marth is plus 1 and MK is plus 2, Marth isn't THAT bad and MK isn't minus 3 worthy imo

 

[Kuro~]

And you're entitled to that. As of now i agree. I'm just saying it can change for better or worse For example, marth has a bunch of frame traps with upair that pit doesn't really have much an answer for yet no marths use it cuz no1
"explores" the mu in such a way to shake up the foundations.

 

[MVD]

Then "explore" pit more and make them favorable MUs

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

mvd wat is your opinion of this character as a whole?

 

[MVD]

Of pit? I think pit can compete with ANYONE due to the large amount of styles you can play, similar to snake just with less kill potential(kinda) lighter yet more mobile which is nice, real under rated, ppl just gotta be open minded when ya play pit, like when I play snake, let it flow and luckily for you guys you always have a ledge to calm down if you get flustered

 

[Kuro~]

Then "explore" pit more and make them favorable MUs

I plan to.

Of pit? I think pit can compete with ANYONE due to the large amount of styles you can play, similar to snake just with less kill potential(kinda) lighter yet more mobile which is nice, real under rated, ppl just gotta be open minded when ya play pit, like when I play snake, let it flow and luckily for you guys you always have a ledge to calm down if you get flustered

I cosign the above

 

[MVD]

Yeh I'm da best analyst :3

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Your so good MVD, you need to train me up! How did you get to your skill level? How did you get so good at reading opponents and punishing habits?

Also Marth is probably +1 his favor and MK +2. MVD has it right.

 

[MVD]

Haha thanks man, I'm sorry I do not know you, may I ask who you are? Umm basically I got to where I am by losing A LOT tbh, just making it through tough times and always being inventive and trying to make snake more than what he is, predicting and reading all come with experience, are you going to apex?

 

[pitskeyblade]

Your so good MVD, you need to train me up! How did you get to your skill level? How did you get so good at reading opponents and punishing habits?

Also Marth is probably +1 his favor and MK +2. MVD has it right.

Haha thanks man, I'm sorry I do not know you, may I ask who you are? Umm basically I got to where I am by losing A LOT tbh, just making it through tough times and always being inventive and trying to make snake more than what he is, predicting and reading all come with experience, are you going to apex?

Psh, whatever. Don't let that guy fool ya. I taught him everything he knows.

 

[MVD]

Missy I taught YOU

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Haha thanks man, I'm sorry I do not know you, may I ask who you are? Umm basically I got to where I am by losing A LOT tbh, just making it through tough times and always being inventive and trying to make snake more than what he is, predicting and reading all come with experience, are you going to apex?

I think so, I need to buy my tickets, and get an ok from my parents even though I know they won't agree.

 

[MVD]

cool cool I hope to see you there, still dont know who you are tho

 

[Roxas M]

Just wondering, but, when do the Pit boards plan on discussing the Diddy matchup? I'm interested on both board's thoughts on it.

 

[Kuro~]

^^^^^There was actually a discussion not too long ago so just like game and watch we bypassed it. I will be doing a write-up on it based on experience and the past discussions.

 

[Roxas M]

Nice, i'll be looking forward to it. Now that Diddy's metagame has changed a lot since the last matchup discussion between the two, I was wondering if it was still considered even now.

 

[otter]

I'm sure this is a common question around here but I don't come here often. What am I supposed to do against game and watch!?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

space fair and dtilt. get the odd grab in. jab. run. arrow very cautiously

 

[Kuro~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_DKyOLw1uU

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Hit him with 2 arrows in a row, they expect another so they bucket, then run up and grab or dash attack during the major bucket cool down lag. Don't land near him because all his smashes are stupid strong and he'll try to kill early with them.

 

[otter]

thanks guys. I have another question. I was looking at the chaingrab thread. and one of the notations post-grab is "ss" what does that mean?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

my guess is stutter-step

as in stutter-step fsmash?

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

You jerk the control stick left or right then immediatel fsmash afterwards. It gives you the necessary boost.

 

[otter]

So do you hit:

toward, pause, attack

or

toward, nuetral, toward+attack