Cold Beans
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2007
- Messages
- 166
Dis is kindoff on the dumb side, becuase you can say thats ther be too many **** punch users.
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The Anti-Sword Debate/Vent room.
- Thread starter courte
- Start date
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
People don't understand that Smash isn't your typical fighting game. Different types of swordsmen doesn't mean as much in this game unless they do something about it. And even at that, many of them just seem to be the same thing rehashed. I mean, does giving every Melee character a beam sword or a homerun bat make them a new character? No. But they do all use them differently. Is that a good enough reason to do it? No it isn't.
I get tired of the arguments that say "too many swords?...well we have too many ______" (fill in the blank). How about instead of using that crappy logic in order to convince everyone else that your favorite character should get in...about about more original characters? How about more characters like Pokemon Trainer and Wario? How about newcomers like Olimar and Ridley? These are the sorts of characters we need, not a bunch more different "types" of sword-users.
I can handle a few more than we have, sure. But there are already plenty that we are "expecting." In other words, stop using crappy logic about how different they can be even though they're essentially the same as your sole argument for why your favorite character should get in.
I get tired of the arguments that say "too many swords?...well we have too many ______" (fill in the blank). How about instead of using that crappy logic in order to convince everyone else that your favorite character should get in...about about more original characters? How about more characters like Pokemon Trainer and Wario? How about newcomers like Olimar and Ridley? These are the sorts of characters we need, not a bunch more different "types" of sword-users.
I can handle a few more than we have, sure. But there are already plenty that we are "expecting." In other words, stop using crappy logic about how different they can be even though they're essentially the same as your sole argument for why your favorite character should get in.
shadenexus18
Smash Master
I'll admit it, swordsmen are overated in the game of Smash. We don't need alot of them. Maybe 4 to 5 characters. That seems reasonable enough.
it's a weak argument with no basis, too many swords. If you use it, you're keeping a closed mind, perhaps thinking back to melee when there were 4 sword fighters, when in reality there were only 2 sword styles, and most of the sword fighters nominated are not using that one aspect as a crutch for their entire being
and sinisterlizard, we're tired of the "Not Another Sword User" argument--we simply compliment a weak point with a weak rebuttal
when there's a point with true substance or bias, worded well, we'll give that person the appropriate response. Please Explain more original characters, as i think the entire cast is quite original in their own respects, and you will find most of us agreeing with and supporting other "original" characters
and personally i'd wait until Brawl is out until we start slinging around the word "rehased"
kthxbai
and sinisterlizard, we're tired of the "Not Another Sword User" argument--we simply compliment a weak point with a weak rebuttal
when there's a point with true substance or bias, worded well, we'll give that person the appropriate response. Please Explain more original characters, as i think the entire cast is quite original in their own respects, and you will find most of us agreeing with and supporting other "original" characters
and personally i'd wait until Brawl is out until we start slinging around the word "rehased"
kthxbai
espio87
Smash Ace
personally I think the FE franchise needs three representatives:
1) Marth:He's the first lord and his fighting style fills the place of a fast character
2) A Heavy and Strong Lord: In SSBB case it's Ike
3) A Unique Lord: that is, a lord that fights in a completely different way than the previous two lords. Could be, for example Ephraim since he fights with a lance and has more range than Marth and Ike
As for sword-user from other franchises, I think characters like Takamaru would be unique enough to appear in brawl. and for the ones that say there would be a lot of sword-users here's my counter-argument: nobody forces you to use them
1) Marth:He's the first lord and his fighting style fills the place of a fast character
2) A Heavy and Strong Lord: In SSBB case it's Ike
3) A Unique Lord: that is, a lord that fights in a completely different way than the previous two lords. Could be, for example Ephraim since he fights with a lance and has more range than Marth and Ike
As for sword-user from other franchises, I think characters like Takamaru would be unique enough to appear in brawl. and for the ones that say there would be a lot of sword-users here's my counter-argument: nobody forces you to use them
Magically Enhanced Hobo
Smash Journeyman
EDIT: Criminy, this is a long post. I apologize in advance for the wall of text. It's mostly just me rambling, so feel free to skip it.
Well, I never saw the point in the whole "too many sword users" thing, because if Claus, Isaac, WW Link, Ganondorf, and Takamaru were all in, they would all play extremely differently, and anyone with half a brain can see that.
My problem was only with the Fire Emblem franchise, as many have said. I love Ike and I'm glad he's in, but he sure does complicate things. Fire Emblem won't get more than 3 reps unless this game has 50+ characters, and I think it's too diverse a series for all its reps to be blue-haired sword users. Honestly, what would simplify things was if Marth just didn't come back, but he's too important to the series and he's a veteran(for the record, I'm glad he's back, I'm just saying it would simplify things if he wasn't).
That really only leaves 1 more spot, and I don't think it's going to be Sigurd or Eirika. Ephraim is possible, but I'd be more willing to go for a magic user like Micaiah, since they're like the total opposite of a sword user, and would represent the other half of the series.
See, to me, more Fire Emblem sword users would be like having every Pokemon be Electric type. We can all agree Pokemon is much more than Electric-types, and while they could certainly give them all unique movesets, they would not represent the series very well to somebody who's just getting to know it through Smash. Now, we know this isn't the case with Pokemon, and that's why I'd be disappointed with Fire Emblem if we got like Ike, Marth, and Sigurd. I can just see the thousands of people who would never give an awesome series a shot because "it's all blue-haired sword users, I'm not spending 50 bucks on that".
Now like I said before, as to the other sword users, none of their movesets would actually revolve around the sword.
Isaac- Psynergy based moveset, maybe with a Djinn/summon based Final Smash. Sword for some Smash attacks, tilts, and 1-2 aerials.
Claus- Bat wings to fly around, little buster, and PSI moves(you'll have to excuse me here, I'm not familiar with mother).
WW Link- Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Bombchus, Grappling Hook, and other stuff that doesn't come to mind right now. I think at least his Down aerial and Up aerial should remain the same as adult Link's, but that's because I love those two. Anyways, following Snake's leads, a lot of these character's Smash attacks can be based off of the other tools in their arsenal, and be more akin to Special attacks. For instance, WW Link's Smash> could be a whack with his Skull Hammer, and maybe his v Smash can be digging a hole with his shovel that people could fall into, who knows.
Ganondorf- Really, I'm not sure how often he would even use that sword. All of his Specials should be Magical, and most of his Aerials/Smashes should be a mix of punches, kicks, headbutts, etc. Sword swipes would be good tilts, however, since they tend to have better range.
Takamaru- this is the guy I'm skeptical about, because I don't know much about him. But somebody mentioned he used Lightning, Fireballs, and other stuff. If they can incorporate that into his moveset, I'd be fine with it.
What I(and I guess all the "no more sword" people) am trying to avoid is more than 1-2 people like Marth, Roy and Ike, who use swords for EVERY SINGLE attack. There are arbitrary differences between the different swipes, sure, but in the end, they're just kind of boring to watch and don't add anything to the game. I figure that's what most of these people think of when they see someone with a sword. Maybe they don't know the character well enough, maybe they think disjointed hitboxes give an unfair advantage, I don't know.
All I know is, if the character can bring diversity to the Smash roster, it shouldn't matter if he fights with a sword or a rubber chicken. What nobody here wants is a boring sword user whose special moves, tilts, aerials, and Smash attacks are just sword swipes of varying power, and then his Final Smash is another series of sword swipes.
Well, I never saw the point in the whole "too many sword users" thing, because if Claus, Isaac, WW Link, Ganondorf, and Takamaru were all in, they would all play extremely differently, and anyone with half a brain can see that.
My problem was only with the Fire Emblem franchise, as many have said. I love Ike and I'm glad he's in, but he sure does complicate things. Fire Emblem won't get more than 3 reps unless this game has 50+ characters, and I think it's too diverse a series for all its reps to be blue-haired sword users. Honestly, what would simplify things was if Marth just didn't come back, but he's too important to the series and he's a veteran(for the record, I'm glad he's back, I'm just saying it would simplify things if he wasn't).
That really only leaves 1 more spot, and I don't think it's going to be Sigurd or Eirika. Ephraim is possible, but I'd be more willing to go for a magic user like Micaiah, since they're like the total opposite of a sword user, and would represent the other half of the series.
See, to me, more Fire Emblem sword users would be like having every Pokemon be Electric type. We can all agree Pokemon is much more than Electric-types, and while they could certainly give them all unique movesets, they would not represent the series very well to somebody who's just getting to know it through Smash. Now, we know this isn't the case with Pokemon, and that's why I'd be disappointed with Fire Emblem if we got like Ike, Marth, and Sigurd. I can just see the thousands of people who would never give an awesome series a shot because "it's all blue-haired sword users, I'm not spending 50 bucks on that".
Now like I said before, as to the other sword users, none of their movesets would actually revolve around the sword.
Isaac- Psynergy based moveset, maybe with a Djinn/summon based Final Smash. Sword for some Smash attacks, tilts, and 1-2 aerials.
Claus- Bat wings to fly around, little buster, and PSI moves(you'll have to excuse me here, I'm not familiar with mother).
WW Link- Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf, Bombchus, Grappling Hook, and other stuff that doesn't come to mind right now. I think at least his Down aerial and Up aerial should remain the same as adult Link's, but that's because I love those two. Anyways, following Snake's leads, a lot of these character's Smash attacks can be based off of the other tools in their arsenal, and be more akin to Special attacks. For instance, WW Link's Smash> could be a whack with his Skull Hammer, and maybe his v Smash can be digging a hole with his shovel that people could fall into, who knows.
Ganondorf- Really, I'm not sure how often he would even use that sword. All of his Specials should be Magical, and most of his Aerials/Smashes should be a mix of punches, kicks, headbutts, etc. Sword swipes would be good tilts, however, since they tend to have better range.
Takamaru- this is the guy I'm skeptical about, because I don't know much about him. But somebody mentioned he used Lightning, Fireballs, and other stuff. If they can incorporate that into his moveset, I'd be fine with it.
What I(and I guess all the "no more sword" people) am trying to avoid is more than 1-2 people like Marth, Roy and Ike, who use swords for EVERY SINGLE attack. There are arbitrary differences between the different swipes, sure, but in the end, they're just kind of boring to watch and don't add anything to the game. I figure that's what most of these people think of when they see someone with a sword. Maybe they don't know the character well enough, maybe they think disjointed hitboxes give an unfair advantage, I don't know.
All I know is, if the character can bring diversity to the Smash roster, it shouldn't matter if he fights with a sword or a rubber chicken. What nobody here wants is a boring sword user whose special moves, tilts, aerials, and Smash attacks are just sword swipes of varying power, and then his Final Smash is another series of sword swipes.
gangstajuice02
Smash Ace
nice thread!!....
hello_kitty
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 275
Brawl has enough sword users already, this game is to represent all of Nintendo and it's all -stars. Nintendo is more than just sword-users, even though they could make their movesets different and unique there are characters out there who could be more original and represent something else. Saki is a great example, he would have represented Sin & Punishment,he could have had a way unique moveset but he'd be just another sword user, samewith the other options (non-confirmed) they would be original in a sense but there's enough sword users already. Instead of Takamaru they could use someone better like Mach Rider, instead of another "sword user" they can use someone who can have a complete new fighting style.
Instead of another "swords-man" for Fire Emblem (especially FE) they could use someone way better and original. Of all series, Fire Emblem should be focused on more, people usually suggest Ike, Marth, and Sigurd not only is that stupid, lame, and dull but that is no where near representing Fire Emblem, that is stereotyping it.
Instead of another "swords-man" for Fire Emblem (especially FE) they could use someone way better and original. Of all series, Fire Emblem should be focused on more, people usually suggest Ike, Marth, and Sigurd not only is that stupid, lame, and dull but that is no where near representing Fire Emblem, that is stereotyping it.
Magically Enhanced Hobo
Smash Journeyman
Well guys, we can forget about Luigi. This game already has a plumber and 2 Italians, and we all know Nintendo is more than just Italian plumers.
Captain Falcon? Pshh, no way they could make -two- bounty hunters totally different from each other. He would be a Samus clone.
No seriously, dude. Listen to yourself. The weapon(or lack of weapon) a character uses -does not matter-. By your logic, never mind the fact that Zelda is one of the most consistently awesome series in history, and Link is a gaming icon, since he uses a sword he does not deserve to be in.
I agree with you about Fire Emblem, but we've already established that we don't want more sword users -from that series- because it does not represent -that particular series- adequately. Golden Sun, on the other hand, is a great series that needs representation, and they should use the most iconic character, Isaac, because he represents that series well, as opposed to, say, Ivan(a staff user) simply because we have "too many sword users". Might as well get Tingle to replace Link, because he would be totally unique, right?
Before condemning any of the FE characters, has anyone seen the threads and speculated movesets?? EX Roy for Brawl. It consensus that Roy is the clone, and that could easily have been changed around if you unlocked him first. And many people assume Marth will definetly be back, but are they taking into account, roy is more popular with casuals and beginners??
I think the main reason most people are turned off to sword users is that very misrepresentation of the FE series and those two clones. How could he have quite possible had a unique moveset?? His game hadn't even launched yet, therefore there was nothing to draw resource material from. After playing through the game, you see him fight in a truly unique style that woulld make you long to see the true Roy implements into Smash gameplay. Instead of being a marth clone with a few changed attributes, his sword is not only carried a different way, but his attacks are no where near as flithy and flashy while still being very impressive. He also does not use it for attacking alone, as it is a magic sword with a ranged attack and also has the ability to heal his HP.
As for some of the older FE chars, i'll admit it would probably be a little hard to design a moveset around one weapon, as all they had was either a slash or a stab, case in point marth. But i believe there are definetly ways to make them more unique, and yes, while FE does not have near as much nintendo points as other prominent series, what it offers still appeals to a few; those who love the days of cross swords, even in gaming form. It's awful hard to find a game with that setting in todays 15-new-fps-a-month market.
People who jump to the conclusion of sword users in general such as takamaru, isaac, and wind waker link have their eyes and minds closed from playing melee and keeping that mindset; when you start to play the game, there is an outlined way in which you must think, act, and perform. There is also a shround in which you must see the characters. People have forgotten this is not melee. this is not melee 2.0
This. IS. BRAWL. you must treat it with anticipation and hope,..
and thank you magically enhanced hobo
I think the main reason most people are turned off to sword users is that very misrepresentation of the FE series and those two clones. How could he have quite possible had a unique moveset?? His game hadn't even launched yet, therefore there was nothing to draw resource material from. After playing through the game, you see him fight in a truly unique style that woulld make you long to see the true Roy implements into Smash gameplay. Instead of being a marth clone with a few changed attributes, his sword is not only carried a different way, but his attacks are no where near as flithy and flashy while still being very impressive. He also does not use it for attacking alone, as it is a magic sword with a ranged attack and also has the ability to heal his HP.
As for some of the older FE chars, i'll admit it would probably be a little hard to design a moveset around one weapon, as all they had was either a slash or a stab, case in point marth. But i believe there are definetly ways to make them more unique, and yes, while FE does not have near as much nintendo points as other prominent series, what it offers still appeals to a few; those who love the days of cross swords, even in gaming form. It's awful hard to find a game with that setting in todays 15-new-fps-a-month market.
People who jump to the conclusion of sword users in general such as takamaru, isaac, and wind waker link have their eyes and minds closed from playing melee and keeping that mindset; when you start to play the game, there is an outlined way in which you must think, act, and perform. There is also a shround in which you must see the characters. People have forgotten this is not melee. this is not melee 2.0
This. IS. BRAWL. you must treat it with anticipation and hope,..
and thank you magically enhanced hobo
MysticKenji
Smash Master
...
"flithy"?
Also, no swordsmen johns.
"flithy"?
Also, no swordsmen johns.
Bassoonist
Smash Master
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I can't even read beyond that. It's just such an idiotic, biased, and ignorant statement.
Especially since you go on to talk about how this is about Nintendo's all stars... Well guess what? Some of them have swords, and we can't write them off for that reason.
I do not understand this statement. I see it multiple times on this forum board. It is indeed biased and opinionated and has no real logic behind it at all. By saying this, you are stating that punch users are the superior 'fighting style'. Where did you draw this from? Sword users are a minority compared to fist characters, so why don't you state that there are too many fist fighters? Your statement has little to no value at all my good friend.
I think the main reason a lot of people don't want more sword-users is because they don't see anyway they could be unique. Why? Probably because half of the sword-users in Melee were clones.
I personally realize this is not the truth. Even Ike and Marth would play completely different due to their power and speed.
I also believe sword-using characters A moves should not be completely comprised of sword moves. Ganondorf for example, can and could easily use hand-to-hand combat and magic as well in his A moves. Isaac could easily integrate psynergy and djinn. This would be a way to add more variety to the move sets of sword-using characters.
Now as for FE, this presents a problem. Characters in the FE games are generally very constricted in their move sets. In their own games 3 is usually the most type of abilities a unit can use, even when fully promoted. Many characters, like Ike and Marth, can still only use one when fully promoted. Their move sets have to completely comprised of sword moves, both in A and B regards. That is why if a 3rd FE character gets in, I hope they are not a sword-user, or at least not someone who is primarily a sword-user (Someone who can only use swords after they promote for instance.) Having 3 FE characters who use swords for ALL of their moves would do a great disservice in misrepresenting the series.
I personally realize this is not the truth. Even Ike and Marth would play completely different due to their power and speed.
I also believe sword-using characters A moves should not be completely comprised of sword moves. Ganondorf for example, can and could easily use hand-to-hand combat and magic as well in his A moves. Isaac could easily integrate psynergy and djinn. This would be a way to add more variety to the move sets of sword-using characters.
Now as for FE, this presents a problem. Characters in the FE games are generally very constricted in their move sets. In their own games 3 is usually the most type of abilities a unit can use, even when fully promoted. Many characters, like Ike and Marth, can still only use one when fully promoted. Their move sets have to completely comprised of sword moves, both in A and B regards. That is why if a 3rd FE character gets in, I hope they are not a sword-user, or at least not someone who is primarily a sword-user (Someone who can only use swords after they promote for instance.) Having 3 FE characters who use swords for ALL of their moves would do a great disservice in misrepresenting the series.
Ryudo_Sama
Smash Ace
Sword users are nice and all, especially if they use different kinds of swords, and swordplay. But I would like to see different weapon users.
smashbot226
Smash Master
The previous statement couldn't be truer.
I'd say we could limit about ONE more sword reliant brawler, the first being Ike, and make Ike a counterpart.
Of course, there could always be slower and stronger than Mr. Slowsauce, but... I don't know if Marth could fit the niche now.
I'd say Sothe, but apparently he's been AT'd. My backup is Stephan. Yep, Stephan.
FE is a much more popular series nowadays, and I could easily see them having four or five reps. Three is more likely, however. Who'd fill the niches?
Hmm... someone who doesn't use swords... Micaiah? Nephenee? Soren?
I'm not saying Hector because he'd be another Ike... with axes.
WW Link is definitely a good choice. I wouldn't exactly draw upon his Phantom Hourglass arsenal, however. I'd rather see the good ol' Deku Leaf and Megaton Hammer. Call me what you will.
I really can't overstate how much Ganondorf could be a mixed fighter. It's easy to see that Ganon, due to Melee, OoT, and TP, that Ganon would have a healthy mix of magic, mad warlock karate skills, and swordsmanship skills Ganon could draw upon.
Cpt. Falcon clone my arse.
Isaac and Tako I can't really cover.
EDIT: Whoops, I didn't really mean Marth was slow. I meant Black Knight.
I'd say we could limit about ONE more sword reliant brawler, the first being Ike, and make Ike a counterpart.
Of course, there could always be slower and stronger than Mr. Slowsauce, but... I don't know if Marth could fit the niche now.
I'd say Sothe, but apparently he's been AT'd. My backup is Stephan. Yep, Stephan.
FE is a much more popular series nowadays, and I could easily see them having four or five reps. Three is more likely, however. Who'd fill the niches?
Hmm... someone who doesn't use swords... Micaiah? Nephenee? Soren?
I'm not saying Hector because he'd be another Ike... with axes.
WW Link is definitely a good choice. I wouldn't exactly draw upon his Phantom Hourglass arsenal, however. I'd rather see the good ol' Deku Leaf and Megaton Hammer. Call me what you will.
I really can't overstate how much Ganondorf could be a mixed fighter. It's easy to see that Ganon, due to Melee, OoT, and TP, that Ganon would have a healthy mix of magic, mad warlock karate skills, and swordsmanship skills Ganon could draw upon.
Cpt. Falcon clone my arse.
Isaac and Tako I can't really cover.
EDIT: Whoops, I didn't really mean Marth was slow. I meant Black Knight.
Bassoonist
Smash Master
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Isaac shouldn't really even be a part of this debate.
His use of the sword is not prominent in the Golden Sun series at all.
His use of the sword is not prominent in the Golden Sun series at all.
Magically Enhanced Hobo
Smash Journeyman
Yet people keep drawing him into this, lumping him with the sword users. That's exactly the point we're trying to make. Same goes for Ganondorf and Claus. Swords are a small part of their arsenal.Isaac shouldn't really even be a part of this debate.
His use of the sword is not prominent in the Golden Sun series at all.
i completely agree though...
you forgot roy and the magic swords of FE as well as the fact that many of the characters namely lords can weild more than one type of weapon in more than one way. Also it's noted that unarmed attacking with fist and foot is a key element of swordsmanship as fients--it's even prevalent in The soul calibur series
such a change is not so very far off ex link when did he ever kick in a zelda game, but from SSB 1 and 2 they kept that element of his metagame. Roy and marth have even been seen to discard their swords to use moves and even ike. the players are unwelcome to the idea because of the method in which they were presented, you're right on that part. but would sakurai and the team actually write characters off and make the same moves in development that he decided upon with melee. i think another reason so many people are against the aspect of more swordfighters is that they are afraid of the disappointment felt after melee, that's not something i'd like to feel again on more characters --luigi is a classic but laziness hurts
to the nancies, please give a character complete thought and picture him/her/it/potato in your mind how YOU would like to see it. Sure we all post movelist but you can make up your own. We're all free to speculate, so speculate in your own way if your have to...
but if you just look at a picture and say
"too many swordusers" "no more swordusers!" it doesn't comeoff as very intelligent
do you mean completely sword reliant from FE?? Someone who wields and uses a sword for all attacks?? All Melee attacks?? or do you mean someone who has a sword and uses them for most/some of their attacks
hello_kitty
Smash Journeyman
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Fire Emblem is more than "sword-users" and as I said before it's stupid and lame to only have playables that are that for Brawl. As for other swordusers, like Takamaru idk but he's not the only option out there is others like Sukapon and even more, if there are other characters who can implement a completely new or unexperienced fighting style they should be put over others that would be similar to someone in already. This does not mean Luigi should be kicked out or Link, they make up the face of Nintendo pretty much, so why in the heck would they get thrown out?
WWLink on the other hand, he is Link so it's useless to have him in again, they can add a different character instead. Isaac, he's a good option he represents a new series, im not too familiar with him but his fans say he's the face of GS.
WWLink on the other hand, he is Link so it's useless to have him in again, they can add a different character instead. Isaac, he's a good option he represents a new series, im not too familiar with him but his fans say he's the face of GS.
smashbot226
Smash Master
WW Link and Link: the only thing they have in common is name.
WW Link: Wouldn't singularly rely on his sword. Megaton Hammer, Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, hell, even the Telescope, would be involved in his moveset!
Isaac's other options make me even like him more.
And to courte: I mean someone like Ike,, by which I mean with a moveset that heavily depends on his sword, so someone else could be like him... by a maximum of ONE.
Just one.
WW Link: Wouldn't singularly rely on his sword. Megaton Hammer, Grappling Hook, Deku Leaf, hell, even the Telescope, would be involved in his moveset!
Isaac's other options make me even like him more.
And to courte: I mean someone like Ike,, by which I mean with a moveset that heavily depends on his sword, so someone else could be like him... by a maximum of ONE.
Just one.
Although there are many sword users in Smash Bros. I don't think a character should not be in just because they wield a sword. If an important character uses a sword, then just because we have x number of sword users in already, I don't think its reason enough for them not to get in. If a character deserves a spot, they should get in regardless of their weapon as anyone can have a unique moveset. Similarly a character non-deserving of a spot shouldn't get in just because they use a weapon nobody else uses.
Realistically when looking at FE representatives I'd be suprised to get a non-lord. If you look at lords in the Fire Emblem universe then it obvious that sword wielding lords dominate it: -
- Every Fire Emblem game (10/10) has a sword wielding Lord.
- 8/10 Fire Emblem games have a blue haired sword wielder (inc. Erika/Lyn's hairs as a shade of blue). Some have more than one.
- 6/10 Fire Emblem games have a blue haired sword wielder (not inc. Erika/Lyn). Some have more than one.
- Only 3 FE lords don't use swords as their main weapon (Hector-Axe, Ephriam-Spear, Micaiah-Staff).
- The main character/lord (this is debatable) of every Fire Emblem game is a sword user.
I think Fire Emblem may get only sword users and honestly, the ones they'd choose would probably most deserve it. Fire Emblem lords are mostly sword users. FACT. Blue haired sword users are the most common Fire Emblem lord. FACT. Whilst I do believe having the three Fire Emblem reps being a Sword/Axe/Spear user, I don't believe that they would be the most deserving. I would argue that based on importance in the Fire Emblem universe - Marth, Ike, Sigurd would probably take the three slots (argueably being the most popular/most important/from the "best" games), but there is definitly repetitivnous in their as we have 3 blue haired sword users.
A comprimise would be Marth, Ike and Micaiah. I think as we have Marth and Ike in for general importance. Marth representing where FE started, being the original lord and the quick sword user. Ike representing where FE is going, the lord to the new worldwide games and the heavy sword user. Micaiah bringing originality and showing that there are other types of lords; the magic user. In regards to other lords, Hector looks more like Ike than Marth does and even though he wields Axe's, still gives a bland 3 blue haired fighters feel. Honestly, I don't think Ephraim deserves it. He was the lord of a game generally not favoured in comparison to other Fire Emblem games. A game, which in retrospective stands out as possibly the least important in the Fire Emblem universe. I feel he would be getting in based on the fact he has a spear and has hair slightly lighter than more deserving lords.
Looking at sword users as a whole I wouldn't mind more sword users as long as the reason they are being represented in Smash Bros. is because of how important they are to their franchise and not because they wield an axe or lance. If there is a non-sword wielder just as deserving as a sword wielder, then I'm all for them getting in as they have a good reason to.
Realistically when looking at FE representatives I'd be suprised to get a non-lord. If you look at lords in the Fire Emblem universe then it obvious that sword wielding lords dominate it: -
- Every Fire Emblem game (10/10) has a sword wielding Lord.
- 8/10 Fire Emblem games have a blue haired sword wielder (inc. Erika/Lyn's hairs as a shade of blue). Some have more than one.
- 6/10 Fire Emblem games have a blue haired sword wielder (not inc. Erika/Lyn). Some have more than one.
- Only 3 FE lords don't use swords as their main weapon (Hector-Axe, Ephriam-Spear, Micaiah-Staff).
- The main character/lord (this is debatable) of every Fire Emblem game is a sword user.
I think Fire Emblem may get only sword users and honestly, the ones they'd choose would probably most deserve it. Fire Emblem lords are mostly sword users. FACT. Blue haired sword users are the most common Fire Emblem lord. FACT. Whilst I do believe having the three Fire Emblem reps being a Sword/Axe/Spear user, I don't believe that they would be the most deserving. I would argue that based on importance in the Fire Emblem universe - Marth, Ike, Sigurd would probably take the three slots (argueably being the most popular/most important/from the "best" games), but there is definitly repetitivnous in their as we have 3 blue haired sword users.
A comprimise would be Marth, Ike and Micaiah. I think as we have Marth and Ike in for general importance. Marth representing where FE started, being the original lord and the quick sword user. Ike representing where FE is going, the lord to the new worldwide games and the heavy sword user. Micaiah bringing originality and showing that there are other types of lords; the magic user. In regards to other lords, Hector looks more like Ike than Marth does and even though he wields Axe's, still gives a bland 3 blue haired fighters feel. Honestly, I don't think Ephraim deserves it. He was the lord of a game generally not favoured in comparison to other Fire Emblem games. A game, which in retrospective stands out as possibly the least important in the Fire Emblem universe. I feel he would be getting in based on the fact he has a spear and has hair slightly lighter than more deserving lords.
Looking at sword users as a whole I wouldn't mind more sword users as long as the reason they are being represented in Smash Bros. is because of how important they are to their franchise and not because they wield an axe or lance. If there is a non-sword wielder just as deserving as a sword wielder, then I'm all for them getting in as they have a good reason to.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
I'm not against WW Link cuz he has a sword, I'm against WW Link because he's LINK, when we already have a Link. I see no purpose in AU versions of ANY character taking up a slot, no matter HOW different they are from their counterparts. They are the same character at heart, and it takes slots that could've went to a completely different character.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
Thank you Captain Obvious, you saved my life!
anyway moving away from such trivial things, does anyone honestly believe these characters are simply thrown out into the nominations because of their weapons?? if so, please recheck; as their supporters choose them from their series with admiration for the character as a whole, in all aspects. if we wanted a sword fighting game, there's always soul calibur and future hopes for... a new good onimusha buraiden, or a FE only game
to anyone with arguments, play DMC 1/3/4, then play Onimusha Series, then play... i dunno LoTR??
So. Much. Potential. from games that are completely unrelated, who've managed to break down a barrier... imagine what'd happen if someone actually worked to differentiate it all??
So. Much. Potential. from games that are completely unrelated, who've managed to break down a barrier... imagine what'd happen if someone actually worked to differentiate it all??
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
That...is ********. How about more original character and less of other types. We don't need a ton of sword users and that's my opinion. I think it takes away from the uniqueness if you end up having like 1/4 as sword users. Don't give weak arguments. You even gave a weak argument to my well thought-out argument, further showing that you have no real point to make.
This is silly anyway. We can already see Sakurai doesn't want a ton of sword-wielders. Heck, 4 out of the 13 (~30%) ATs revealed use swords. And one could even argue that they would "play" quite differently from each other. Does this matter? No. Sword users are limited. Simple as that.
OnyxVulpine
Smash Champion
I can't give anything very interesting. But I don't care if there are a few more sword users in Brawl. As long as they aren't clones like say Roy to Marth was.
I would like to see different styles used with the swords or say... Something similar to a sword.. A Short sword, a dagger, or maybe a dual wielder. I don't have anything against swords just clones, cause none sword users can be clones obviously. If there is anything that can be done to prevent clones its fine by me as long as its a character that a majority of people want.
And uh... yeah?
-Onyx
I would like to see different styles used with the swords or say... Something similar to a sword.. A Short sword, a dagger, or maybe a dual wielder. I don't have anything against swords just clones, cause none sword users can be clones obviously. If there is anything that can be done to prevent clones its fine by me as long as its a character that a majority of people want.
And uh... yeah?
-Onyx
PyroRyuken
Smash Ace
Exactly, thats the fun part about Melee/Brawl. Instead of complaining about another character, learn how to approach and fight them.
As people have said, Isaac is much more than a sword user. The sword isn't really a part of his character in the same way that it is for characters like Marth or Link. Isaac isn't a swordfighter; he's an earth-magic user, telekinetic, and summoner. Isaac only uses the sword as a general-purpose melee weapon. In the game, he can use shortswords, longswords, axes, or maces, or no weapon at all. If they really wanted to, the development team could give him a completely functional and fitting moveset where he doesn't use any weapon at all.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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I'm tired of hand fighters. There aren't too many sword characters. If there ARE ENTIRE FIGHTING GAME SERIES built around swordfighting, so smash can easily have that. We call it diffrent fighting styles, sword types, and hitboxes. Having too many sword fighting characters is impossible, so shut up retarted n00bs.
Link: No sweetspot, one handed sword with shield with lots of range. Great power, okay speed.
Wind Waker Young Link: one handed sword with a shield, decent range. Alright power, and good speed, and intresting status effect.
Marth: Sweet spot is on the tip, good range, and is a one handed sword (rapier). Fast as f***.
Ike: HUGE SWORD, two-handed sword, slow as f***, very powerful, and the sweet spot is probablyat the front of the sword. Blade is crazy wide and heavy. BTW, it's a rapier, so therefore it is quite diffrent actually, lol!
Roy: one handed sword, not the best range, decent speed, somewhat powerful, and sweetspot is on the middle of the blade. Intresting burn effect.
Meta Knght: Small sword with little range, barely any damage but with tons of combos, and crazy flying combos, with no sweet spot.
Pit: double sworded like weapon with no sweet spot, not the best range, and alright damage.
Ganondorf: Tons of range, somewhat slow, no sweet spot, and wields a one-handed sword. Powerful, but not as slow as Ike.
See, we can fit all those, EASY!
Edit: I'm tired of fist fighters. EVERYONE HAS THE SAME GODD*** NAIR...IT'S RIDICULOUS! They all punch and kick and stuff. Honestly, if anything has limits, it's fist fighting. Smash bros. is about crazy original characters-not "zOMG! too many sword characters" because of your retarted lack of opinion. Just stop complaining, and learn to not speak out of your a**, and think about the many choices.
Link: No sweetspot, one handed sword with shield with lots of range. Great power, okay speed.
Wind Waker Young Link: one handed sword with a shield, decent range. Alright power, and good speed, and intresting status effect.
Marth: Sweet spot is on the tip, good range, and is a one handed sword (rapier). Fast as f***.
Ike: HUGE SWORD, two-handed sword, slow as f***, very powerful, and the sweet spot is probablyat the front of the sword. Blade is crazy wide and heavy. BTW, it's a rapier, so therefore it is quite diffrent actually, lol!
Roy: one handed sword, not the best range, decent speed, somewhat powerful, and sweetspot is on the middle of the blade. Intresting burn effect.
Meta Knght: Small sword with little range, barely any damage but with tons of combos, and crazy flying combos, with no sweet spot.
Pit: double sworded like weapon with no sweet spot, not the best range, and alright damage.
Ganondorf: Tons of range, somewhat slow, no sweet spot, and wields a one-handed sword. Powerful, but not as slow as Ike.
See, we can fit all those, EASY!
Edit: I'm tired of fist fighters. EVERYONE HAS THE SAME GODD*** NAIR...IT'S RIDICULOUS! They all punch and kick and stuff. Honestly, if anything has limits, it's fist fighting. Smash bros. is about crazy original characters-not "zOMG! too many sword characters" because of your retarted lack of opinion. Just stop complaining, and learn to not speak out of your a**, and think about the many choices.
shinhed-echi
Smash Hero
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Takamaru relies a LOT on his shuriken. Knives, blades, fireblades, and some ninja tricks like cloaking, walking on water, etc.
Takamaru would certainly be very original and, IMO, he's the reason why the other katana users such as Lyn and Goro have been turned into AT.
Isaac could focus a lot on his Psyenergy and Djinn spells. I mean... who ever used the weapons later on in Golden Sun anyway? Only if you lacked the MP... Spells RULE Golden Sun. And it's no ordinary magic either... it's Psychic magic!! :D
Takamaru would certainly be very original and, IMO, he's the reason why the other katana users such as Lyn and Goro have been turned into AT.
Isaac could focus a lot on his Psyenergy and Djinn spells. I mean... who ever used the weapons later on in Golden Sun anyway? Only if you lacked the MP... Spells RULE Golden Sun. And it's no ordinary magic either... it's Psychic magic!! :D
Da Black Rabbit
Smash Journeyman
The Hero of Time is my go to guy so I have no problem with sword users. Besides for reach, Marth, Roy, and Link don't have more advantages then any other character. And Young Link basically defeats Link's advantage.
Ganon should use a sword in brawl if he's gonna have his TP outfit just because you never fight an unarmed Ganon. Though I'll admit my memory's a little foggy on that... :/
I would actually prefer Ganon to you a Spear/Lance. I remember fighting Phantom Ganon in the Forest Temple in the CLASSIC Ocarina of Time. He jumped through paintings launch spells at you from a lance. I think that'd be cool just because it break up the repetitiveness of only swords being represented.
If Krystal of the Star Fox is in, I'd like to see her use that staff.
And if they were to add more Fire Emblem characters, hopefully a it'd be a main character that doesn't use a sword. Like Eliwoods Master Class uses a lance or Hector. Wouldn't mind Sothe or Michiah either.
And I hope that no more then two swordsmen/women have been cloned.
Ganon should use a sword in brawl if he's gonna have his TP outfit just because you never fight an unarmed Ganon. Though I'll admit my memory's a little foggy on that... :/
I would actually prefer Ganon to you a Spear/Lance. I remember fighting Phantom Ganon in the Forest Temple in the CLASSIC Ocarina of Time. He jumped through paintings launch spells at you from a lance. I think that'd be cool just because it break up the repetitiveness of only swords being represented.
If Krystal of the Star Fox is in, I'd like to see her use that staff.
And if they were to add more Fire Emblem characters, hopefully a it'd be a main character that doesn't use a sword. Like Eliwoods Master Class uses a lance or Hector. Wouldn't mind Sothe or Michiah either.
And I hope that no more then two swordsmen/women have been cloned.
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
There are different styles for different sword userd, but eventually the variety has to run out.
I'm OK with any sword user getting in at the moment, but my stance against swords is that if Fire Emblem gets three sword users, that's a huge GG to Sakurai.
I'm OK with any sword user getting in at the moment, but my stance against swords is that if Fire Emblem gets three sword users, that's a huge GG to Sakurai.
Chaosblade77
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,958
I have to say the "no more swords" is a very stupid argument. I mean, people have problems with swords for incredibly stupid reasons.
"Omg Marth was overpowered no swords," but who is to say every sword user is going to be as unbalanced as Marth? The sword gave him the range, but it was his character design that gave him the power that was unnecessary, not the fact he happened to have a sword. I mean, look at Fox...
"Swords are too generic/clones/moveset problems," right, and characters that punch and kick are vastly unique in every way, and all sword users have cloned movesets. Ridiculous, swords could have movesets just as unique as a character that does hand to hand combat, magic, or anything else.
In reference directly to Fire Emblem though, it is as the second post said. Swords are a minor part of the game, there are just as many characters that use lances, axes, and various types of magic. To represent Fire Emblem with three sword users would be like representing Zelda with Link, WW Link, and Deku Link, and no other reps. All things considered though, Micaiah is the only non-sword user with much popularity and a chance to get in.
"Omg Marth was overpowered no swords," but who is to say every sword user is going to be as unbalanced as Marth? The sword gave him the range, but it was his character design that gave him the power that was unnecessary, not the fact he happened to have a sword. I mean, look at Fox...
"Swords are too generic/clones/moveset problems," right, and characters that punch and kick are vastly unique in every way, and all sword users have cloned movesets. Ridiculous, swords could have movesets just as unique as a character that does hand to hand combat, magic, or anything else.
In reference directly to Fire Emblem though, it is as the second post said. Swords are a minor part of the game, there are just as many characters that use lances, axes, and various types of magic. To represent Fire Emblem with three sword users would be like representing Zelda with Link, WW Link, and Deku Link, and no other reps. All things considered though, Micaiah is the only non-sword user with much popularity and a chance to get in.
UsernameLink
Smash Journeyman
4 pure sword users: Link, Ike, Metaknight, Pit
Link: Avarage swrod user
Ike: 2 Handed slow and heavy sword
Metaknight: Speed demon, weak but quick
Pit: 2 blades
So far, they arnt really similar. I mean, there are a ton of punch and kick characters
Link: Avarage swrod user
Ike: 2 Handed slow and heavy sword
Metaknight: Speed demon, weak but quick
Pit: 2 blades
So far, they arnt really similar. I mean, there are a ton of punch and kick characters
to the people who simply dislike swords [[i guess they took street fighter to heart and hater garuda and rolento]] and simply come here to whine [SinisterLizard] i find it odd you see them as waste of character spots as a good way to get your frustration out... swords-- no weapons have been in games since as long as i can remember, and they are in quite a few games.
you actually say
"How about more original character and less of other types."
such a phrase in smash would only come from an anus, labeling characters in such a way. Because of the way they fight, they are group in their own pariah or high than though standing?? Ridiculous. The sword characters are unique, and some of the potentials did not even have to be completely sword reliant[Samurai goroh could have easily saved it for just a few attacks and maybe a final smash, although he's the type fo guy to pull our a cheap trick like run you down in his machine] HECK even some of the Current 'sword users' have much more than going for them[Link, Pit]
perhaps you only see them as similar as the only ones in melee were clones thus giving the appearance of less originality take a look at the roster again on the lowest basic level
Link - Celtic style sword and shield--relies on weapons
Marth - Fecning style one handed sword--relies on 'defensive" techniques keeping opponents away with intimidation and disancing [Are you gonna walk into a Side B?? sweet spotting the Up+B adds quite some distance, N-B Nuetralized the target, forcing them to refrain and let the shield recharge, and counter... s'mon]
Pit - Dual Wielding style two short swords--angelic techniques including divine protection and arrows
Metaknight - Super Fast Short Knight sword--rushdown character with multiple hits and speed over power
Ike - Slow Broadsword style--an offensive brash style which would have no place in Melee, which this is not.
and then lets take a look at some potential candidates
Isaac-Not tied down to any weapon--relies more heavily on Psyenergy
Takamaru-A samurai styled figtehr--Makes use of magics to turn invisible and also relies on projectiles
WW Link--Similar to link, only highlighted by a more pacific stylization-could even rely more of his items then previous incarnations of link-who can argue that the style of Link's swordsmanship hasn't changed slightly over the past 3 console hits--from the slightly vague desperation of Ocarina of Time, to the Childhood fury and agility seen in Wind Waker, defined by pacific influences, to the ever so midevil advanced European style seen in twilight princess
Ganondorf the beast--do i really have to make this appearent
I'm not even going into FE characters
we don't choose the characters simply for the weapons they wield, we choose them because we like them. We like many unarmed characters as well. Stop being narrow-minded.
what's next--no more fast characters like shiek... you can just stfu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the other weapon type, but not crippling dependent[Like Olimar] candidates
G-Dorf
Personally i'd like to see a ganondorf whom makes use of both the sword and his own abilities equally, but if it's from sakurai's team... i won't be surprised if he comes back a clone--OR if F-zero is given a heavy set rep, possibly black bull being ganondorfs clone this time around I WANT THIS GAME NOW!! there is also the issue of his[Ganon] Spear, and twin knives... interesting things i'd like to see if not on his moveset entirely then composing of, although as taunts or win poses its all win.
Krystal
Perhaps[Most likely] she'll come with a staff, which really just makes sense to me. I'd only hope she has more adventure implimentations of her moveset than the other games--it'd be nice to see some sort of new hybrid outfit combining w/etf she's wearing now and her Adventures appearance
Hector/Ephraim
I said i wouldn't cover the FE chars but hector at least has some limited Clone potential if nothing at all. Be in in basic moves, special or both. His basic attack in FE would make a killer Up-B at the expense of a preset horizontal and vertical range. Ephraim the spear wielder is my personally favorite lord out of ALL of them. I'd be interesting in seeing this style of gameplay implemented, although im drinking arsenic to soften the blow of reality
you actually say
"How about more original character and less of other types."
such a phrase in smash would only come from an anus, labeling characters in such a way. Because of the way they fight, they are group in their own pariah or high than though standing?? Ridiculous. The sword characters are unique, and some of the potentials did not even have to be completely sword reliant[Samurai goroh could have easily saved it for just a few attacks and maybe a final smash, although he's the type fo guy to pull our a cheap trick like run you down in his machine] HECK even some of the Current 'sword users' have much more than going for them[Link, Pit]
perhaps you only see them as similar as the only ones in melee were clones thus giving the appearance of less originality take a look at the roster again on the lowest basic level
Link - Celtic style sword and shield--relies on weapons
Marth - Fecning style one handed sword--relies on 'defensive" techniques keeping opponents away with intimidation and disancing [Are you gonna walk into a Side B?? sweet spotting the Up+B adds quite some distance, N-B Nuetralized the target, forcing them to refrain and let the shield recharge, and counter... s'mon]
Pit - Dual Wielding style two short swords--angelic techniques including divine protection and arrows
Metaknight - Super Fast Short Knight sword--rushdown character with multiple hits and speed over power
Ike - Slow Broadsword style--an offensive brash style which would have no place in Melee, which this is not.
and then lets take a look at some potential candidates
Isaac-Not tied down to any weapon--relies more heavily on Psyenergy
Takamaru-A samurai styled figtehr--Makes use of magics to turn invisible and also relies on projectiles
WW Link--Similar to link, only highlighted by a more pacific stylization-could even rely more of his items then previous incarnations of link-who can argue that the style of Link's swordsmanship hasn't changed slightly over the past 3 console hits--from the slightly vague desperation of Ocarina of Time, to the Childhood fury and agility seen in Wind Waker, defined by pacific influences, to the ever so midevil advanced European style seen in twilight princess
Ganondorf the beast--do i really have to make this appearent
I'm not even going into FE characters
we don't choose the characters simply for the weapons they wield, we choose them because we like them. We like many unarmed characters as well. Stop being narrow-minded.
what's next--no more fast characters like shiek... you can just stfu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the other weapon type, but not crippling dependent[Like Olimar] candidates
G-Dorf
Personally i'd like to see a ganondorf whom makes use of both the sword and his own abilities equally, but if it's from sakurai's team... i won't be surprised if he comes back a clone--OR if F-zero is given a heavy set rep, possibly black bull being ganondorfs clone this time around I WANT THIS GAME NOW!! there is also the issue of his[Ganon] Spear, and twin knives... interesting things i'd like to see if not on his moveset entirely then composing of, although as taunts or win poses its all win.
Krystal
Perhaps[Most likely] she'll come with a staff, which really just makes sense to me. I'd only hope she has more adventure implimentations of her moveset than the other games--it'd be nice to see some sort of new hybrid outfit combining w/etf she's wearing now and her Adventures appearance
Hector/Ephraim
I said i wouldn't cover the FE chars but hector at least has some limited Clone potential if nothing at all. Be in in basic moves, special or both. His basic attack in FE would make a killer Up-B at the expense of a preset horizontal and vertical range. Ephraim the spear wielder is my personally favorite lord out of ALL of them. I'd be interesting in seeing this style of gameplay implemented, although im drinking arsenic to soften the blow of reality